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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: phototristan on Tue, 20 April 2010, 14:17:27

Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saving KB?
Post by: phototristan on Tue, 20 April 2010, 14:17:27
I'm just curious, what were the IBM Model M and Space Saving keyboards priced at when they were sold in stores?

Also, what does 'Model M' mean?

As an aside, I remember in about 1997 buying the Apple Extended Keyboard II for $185. + tax. The lady checking receipts at the store (Fry's) was shocked I would spend so much on a keyboard. But it was worth every penny. Too bad the casing on those turn yellow though.  The Model M is better both in that regard and to type on.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 20 April 2010, 14:39:29
Can't remember my sources for some of them, but -

Model F XT - $350-400.
Model F AT - Around the same
Model M - (originally) $250
Model M - (Lexmark days) $150 (possibly eased down to $100 towards the end of IBM-branded production)
Model M15 - $179, $199 with numpad

All prices are in the contemporary dollar values, unadjusted for inflation or the like.

Chuck once said that Unicomp used to sell the 84-keys for $69. I haven't seen any non-IBM branded Unicomp 84-keys, so it's ambigious as to when they cost that much. I'd say Chuck or Jim would probably know quite a bit about this.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: phototristan on Tue, 20 April 2010, 20:22:52
Thanks. Wow, they were pretty expensive keyboards I guess.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: microsoft windows on Tue, 20 April 2010, 20:37:34
Remember, though, those were just retail units. Most Model M's came with IBM's computers, so their price isn't really solid.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: phototristan on Tue, 20 April 2010, 20:40:33
So when buying an IBM PS/2 at the time, did the customer have a choice between a clicky one and a rubber dome one?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Tue, 20 April 2010, 21:15:22
Quote from: ripster;173960
A Unicomp goes today for $70 using American labor.  That is a more interesting number especially compared to a Filco.


Why? Unicomps are simple membrane keyboards slammed together by a machine. Filcos use separate switches, each carefully carved by a German engineer, then shipped to Taiwan, then slammed into a board by Chinese slave workers. No wonder Filcos are more expensive.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: iMav on Tue, 20 April 2010, 21:25:31
Quote from: ch_123;173845
Chuck once said that Unicomp used to sell the 84-keys for $69. I haven't seen any non-IBM branded Unicomp 84-keys, so it's ambigious as to when they cost that much. I'd say Chuck or Jim would probably know quite a bit about this.
Jim sold me the last one (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=3859) to me back in the fall of 2007.

$59

I eventually sold it to webwit for a bit more then that.  :)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: kishy on Tue, 20 April 2010, 21:50:03
Quote from: phototristan;173959
So when buying an IBM PS/2 at the time, did the customer have a choice between a clicky one and a rubber dome one?


Someone correct me if I'm wrong but AFAIK the rubber dome ones were a Lexmark "innovation", so anything prior to that change probably wouldn't have been available with one.

I'd be curious to figure out what shipped with both of my PS/2s originally. Probably no way to know for sure though...
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 21 April 2010, 03:26:57
Quote from: microsoft windows;173957
Remember, though, those were just retail units. Most Model M's came with IBM's computers, so their price isn't really solid.


I'm sure you would have paid the same if you needed to replace one.

Quote
So when buying an IBM PS/2 at the time, did the customer have a choice between a clicky one and a rubber dome one?


I dont think the rubber dome comes came along until after the PS/2 went out of production in 1994.

The successors of the PS/2 all appeared to come with rubber dome keyboards as far as I can tell, so the Model Ms must have been an optional extra.

The rubber dome Model M2 for the PS/1 appeared to be quite common, especially for schools and libraries.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 01:43:55
lol, waraka, you might want to work on your english skills. mental hobbit is referring to wage slaves in china which is fairly common knowledge.

anyway, everyone knows there is no real slavery in china (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1635144,00.html).

Quote
you are one ****ing racist ****
...
Don't let your white superior-ism blind you


watch your language and dont let your chinese nationalism blind you?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 22 April 2010, 01:48:40
Quote from: warakawa;174319
you are one ****ing racist ****, get your fact straight!

That's totally uncalled for and also entirely off base. Her comment had nothing to do with insulting the Taiwanese and I'm guessing that you're Taiwanese.

It was a jab at the premium pricing of Filco boards and also a jab at labor practices in China and companies exploting loose labor laws.

You're completely out of line.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 01:55:12
he's probably working for the chinese government ;)
China pays 280K people to boost its Web image (http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/03/26/china.astroturf/index.html?hpt=Sbin)

they should get their money back.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 22 April 2010, 02:11:04
Quote from: wellington1869;174323
they should get their money back.

Elsewhere in the world, people are too stupid to ask for money to hyperventilate online. They do it for free.

Thanks to every website wanting to "out social" every other website, we get to read pointless logic-less slobber on every site we happen to visit. I used to be a online communities evangelist of sorts. Now I just get depressed everytime I accidentally read the comments for an article on a newspaper's site or the stuff that passes for "discussion" on most public outlets.

There are so many people in the world and so little IQ to go around. *sigh*

Some days, I want my 300 baud modem and relatively small, but global Usenet world back.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 02:14:26
Quote from: hyperlinked;174325
Elsewhere in the world, people are too stupid to ask for money to hyperventilate online. They do it for free.


lol! think of all the money we've lost ;-D  
There must be some dictatorial regime out there that shares my views on switches ;)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: Otterclock on Thu, 22 April 2010, 02:27:56
lol
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 22 April 2010, 02:46:41
Quote from: warakawa;174329
quoting from two CNN sources, good on ya. You are so blinded by the western media that I pity you more than those working on "slave" wage in China.

As a Mandarin speaking Chinese-American with family both in Taiwan and in China, I'm having a really fun time watching you get worked up over nothing. Welly original comment was spot on. I think you're reading too much into Hobbit's comments. You're looking for a fight where there isn't one.

Saying that there are people working for slave wages isn't the same thing as saying all Chinese people are slaves and if you don't think there aren't people working like slaves in China, you're the one who's got to stop allowing yourself to get brainwashed because there are people in every country in this world working under slave labor conditions. China can't possibly be the only exception in the world.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 02:48:54
Quote from: warakawa;174329
mental hobbit's comment was clearly racial.

no, it was not. not even close.

Quote

If she was only referring to the unregulated work practices in China, that was out of context, first learn the difference between Republic of China and People's Republic of China.


wage slaves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slave) are wage slaves, wherever they are.

Quote

You are so blinded by the western media

yea, its crazy having an uncensored internet. Dont know how i'll ever get used to it.

Quote

my internet is uncensored

You must really hate it, huh? You get to see all kinds of criticism. It clearly is driving you up the wall.

Quote

Remember during the tibet rioting of 2008, Chinese nationalism fueled not by Chinese people's love for communism but by biased media reporting

1. which they dont have access to anyway
2. it makes perfect sense that the right way to respond to criticism about imperialism is to become a flag waving imperialist

Quote

this is like a 30 year old point and laughing at a 13 year old for being short.


More like a 30 year old telling a 13 year old not to use abusive language and not to jump to utterly unfounded conclusions.  Thats what 30 year olds are for.

Quote

 do you know what a developing nation mean?

as a matter of fact, I do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India).  And once again you're jumping to conclusions by assuming your critics are white.  You should really stop jumping so much in public.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 03:15:26
Quote from: warakawa;174329
wellington: you can quote from BBC/CNN all you want, like most overseas Chinese, we are used to it, but we are unaffected by it. China is a developing nation, do you know what a developing nation mean? It means the countries is in the process of developing...in economy, in military, in legal institutions, in education .......developing in everything. You are from a developed nation, and here you are posting imperfections of a developing nation, this is like a 30 year old point and laughing at a 13 year old for being short. You must be very proud.

(http://aroundtheedges.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/tiananmen-square-tank1-1808.jpg)

I guess the murder, rape, torture and genocide in Sudan is "development" too, right?

Quote
If she was only referring to the unregulated work practices in China, that was out of context, first learn the difference between Republic of China and People's Republic of China.

If I went into aspie raeg everytime someone mixed up Ireland with the UK here...
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 03:24:21
warakawa's automatic assumption that his critics are white seems pretty deeply racist to me.  Why are you a racist, warakawa?

and do you really want to talk about "biased media (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/5429152/China-begins-internet-blackout-ahead-of-Tiananmen-anniversary.html)" too? Really? As opposed to any other kind of media in China today? Nothing like "state television" to set the record straight for us all.

And according to the GDP link you posted, China is hardly to be considered a 'developing' third world nation anymore. Wonder how long you'll continue to use that excuse when convenient though.

So by your own actions you're showing china to be an imperialistic, racist, dictatorial, biased, economic and expansionist juggernaut.   Nice job!
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 03:39:59
like i said, he works for the chinese govt.  we've got a genuine one over here folks.

you forgot to mention how mussolini made the trains run on time, too.

good luck with that fascism thing, warakawa. It explains everything preceding.  good night to all!
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 22 April 2010, 03:40:31
Quote from: warakawa;174335
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85AgLsLbKF0

What!?! You represent an economic superpower and you STILL CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO EMBED A YOUTUBE VIDEO? What kind of ¥1 phony are you?

Here, let me help you.


Geeeeeeeezzzz!
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 22 April 2010, 03:41:58
Quote from: wellington1869;174336
like i said, he works for the chinese govt.  we've got a genuine one over here folks.

I think you may be right. He must be working for... SLAVE WAGES.

His local party office will be happy... "Hmmm... how much time did you spend posting to this Japanese keyboard loving Geekhack site?"
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 03:44:48
Quote from: hyperlinked;174338
Must be working for... SLAVE WAGES.


ooooh now you've gone and done it ;-D
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 03:56:33
Quote from: hyperlinked;174338

His local party office will be happy... "Hmmm... how much time did you spend posting to this Japanese keyboard loving Geekhack site?"


i think i found him!

(http://www.foxnews.com/images/523955/2_61_china_military_tech.jpg)

and he's using a rubber dome!
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 04:21:22
Quote from: warakawa;174342
Be thankful for the things you god buddy, you don't want your next iphone 4g to cost $3000 without chinese "slave" labour


Isn't that what it costs anyway?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 22 April 2010, 05:25:22
I'm offended by Warakawa calling me a "she". This is an outrageously sexist remark.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 22 April 2010, 06:01:53
What's wrong with my keyboard? It's made in Taiwan. Are you mocking the Taiwanese people's choice of color?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: skcheng on Thu, 22 April 2010, 06:20:14
Amazing how this forum can go so completely off-topic??  How a simple question about original pricing can turn into a communism/democracy debate is beyond me???  Geez.....
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 22 April 2010, 06:28:43
You know what I think the Chinese need, moar bacon.

Why, cause it's tasty.

No peameal bacon though, us Canadians like to keep it for ourselves.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: iMav on Thu, 22 April 2010, 07:46:47
Quote from: ripster;174310
Actually technically I don't think it was the very LAST one.  I'll leave it up to another Geekhack member to expand on this.  Or you can call Unicomp.

I'm just going by what Jim Owens told me.  I wanted to buy additional ones and he said the one I bought was their last one (I saved the email).

I don't own it any more, so it doesn't really matter to me (in fact, I'd much rather they still sell them today).  I would, however, be interested in knowing who did get the last one and why Jim was holding out when I had money to spend.  :)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 08:00:32
Just like ALPS and Cherry, Unicomp makes decisions we cannot comprehend.  It seems that quality keyboard companies do not want to make money.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 22 April 2010, 09:22:11
I am sure Unicomp wants to make money, its just they probably don't have the capital to invest in new machinery or for preventive maintenance.

As a side note, I recently ordered a spacesaver from them. I can safely say that the quality of the case is substandard compared to the unicomps I got a few years ago.. Its still got all of the clicky goodness though. But overall they are in decline.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 22 April 2010, 09:49:22
No. I got a white one and for the most part it looks good. But the lower right corner has a little bit of play where the the top and bottom case meet. I checked on the older spacesaver and customizer I have and they are tight.

Its been thrashed here before and I ain't going to argue against it but the overall quality of Unicomp is a couple of notches below a real IBM Model M.

Does that mean its a bad keyboard? No, not at all. But the fit and finish fall short when compared to an HHKB or Filco.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 10:06:50
i cant believe we got back on topic after that epic derail.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 10:07:25
One guy over in the quality thread posted weight statistics for his Model Ms... his 2006-made Customizer was 200g lighter than his 2009 one... a 10% weight decrease is pretty noteworthy...
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 22 April 2010, 10:43:23
Quote from: ch_123;174448
One guy over in the quality thread posted weight statistics for his Model Ms... his 2006-made Customizer was 200g lighter than his 2009 one... a 10% weight decrease is pretty noteworthy...


That's something I just don't understand. Do 200g of plastic really have a measurable effect on manufacturing cost? Obviously more than the 50g Cherry saves with their wimpy keycaps, but still...

The alternative would be just raising prices. I doubt a price increase from $69 to $79 would affect their sales at all, they're not in the bargain segment anyway. Everybody saying Unicomps feel cheaper than real IBMs certainly hurts them more.

Would be easy to find out. They could just dig up their old casting molds, make the beefiest board they can, call it Deluxe, put a $100-120 price tag on it and see if it sells. Wouldn't take any investment.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: phototristan on Thu, 22 April 2010, 10:45:11
When I had a Unicomp, I noticed no difference in the feel/quailty of the keys or springs but did notice a slight quality difference in the casing, original Model M had a better fit and finish and just felt a bit more solid overall when tapping on the casing.

I believe I also did a weight comparison at the time and the original Model M was indeed heavier.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:01:13
Quote from: wellington1869;174447
i cant believe we got back on topic after that epic derail.

It's an illusion.  We just derailed enough times to where we just happened to be on Model Ms in a Model M thread.  We will derail again soon enough.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:10:23
Quote from: Mental Hobbit;174462
That's something I just don't understand. Do 200g of plastic really have a measurable effect on manufacturing cost? Obviously more than the 50g Cherry saves with their wimpy keycaps, but still...

The alternative would be just raising prices. I doubt a price increase from $69 to $79 would affect their sales at all, they're not in the bargain segment anyway. Everybody saying Unicomps feel cheaper than real IBMs certainly hurts them more.

Would be easy to find out. They could just dig up their old casting molds, make the beefiest board they can, call it Deluxe, put a $100-120 price tag on it and see if it sells. Wouldn't take any investment.


They appear to be using the same 42H' casting that Lexmark started using in 1995. Perhaps it's to do with their old machinery ****ting out?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:28:42
Quote from: ripster;174477
Subcontracting to China?


are you insinuating that these guys...
(http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0706/china_slaves_0619.jpg)



cant produce the same thing as these guys?:
(http://gapyx.com/cmt/2009/06/ibm_7090.jpg)


Shocking. ;-D


Somewhere in China a military alert has gone off.
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/523955/2_61_china_military_tech.jpg)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:31:05
Their casings tend to have "GENERAL ELECTRIC" markings, is there any significance to this?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:34:19
Quote from: ch_123;174482
Their casings tend to have "GENERAL ELECTRIC" markings, is there any significance to this?


could it be GE Plastics?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:34:34
GE might have built the molding machinery.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:37:04
Quote from: ripster;174487
You're going off topic again.


hey, it was on topic -- assembly line quality... and the efficacy of slave labor vs paid labor on unicomp casings. :)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:40:38
Quote from: ripster;174438
Yeah, true dat.

Still, $70 for a NIB Buckling Spring ain't bad these days.


I can't argue that. Even though the case quality is a little off, I still love the feel of the keys. The unicomp is still a good value at $70.
I have three of them now....I must like them or something.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:50:23
I'll bet that train will run on time.

yup, and the germans developed jet engines and were working on nukes. Mussolini made the trains run on time. They were still fascists. and the nazi youth defended them with 'food in belly' arguments too.

Except they werent paid for their online time.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 11:58:37
ah, herr commandant, right on time. I like that in a young imperialist.

Quote

even though americans are begging us for money.


Actually we're begging for your consumer market, which will eventually produce the bourgeoise class that will topple your precious communist government.  

You might be easily bought out with cash, but the next generation of chinese wont be. Clock is ticking, my Maoist friend.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:00:40
Quote from: warakawa;174499
free texas


I also love how a maoist can ally with religious evangelicals.  I guess if the communist government can purchase loyalty in exchange for consumer products, it can purchase just about anything.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:02:52
Quote from: warakawa;174499
free texas

No joke.  I'll join that campaign.

Your TX news for the week:

A gay couple, now living in Dallas, were married 6 years ago in MA.  This year (or maybe late last year), they wanted to get a divorce (in TX).  The divorce was granted and finalized in a TX district court.  A higher court overturned the result, because gay marriage is illegal in TX. In the eyes of the state, the marriage does not exist; therefore, you can't divorce a marriage that does not exist.  

Brilliant.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:03:16
Quote from: warakawa;174505
tibet is free, free from Dalai lama


Right, "free" -- while the commies destroyed their culture, their temples, and chased the dalai lama from the country, censor and control their media and the universities.  That english language problem again. What does "free" mean again?

(http://tpa.typepad.com/campaign/images/2007/12/18/orwell_2.jpg)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:07:48
Quote from: warakawa;174512
that's why CCP enjoys strong support from its people.


(http://therealrevo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Chinese_execution_of_political_diss.jpg)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:09:25
Quote from: ch_123;174513
Show Image
(http://therealrevo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Chinese_execution_of_political_diss.jpg)


if i were chinese, i might see their point of view too! :-D
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:10:26
Dolly :baby:

Llama :llama:
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:13:21
Quote from: warakawa;174516
the earthquake that happened a week ago, just look how fast the chinese response were in helping the tibetan victim?


you're right, because after all, without 50 years of communist occupation, a tibetan govt might have been there to respond instead. So: ipso facto, q.e.d.

Think much?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:15:54
Quote from: warakawa;174522
and what's your point showing me that photo? it's called death penalty, she's a criminal, probably a tibetan separatist, which means shooting in the head is justified. I am sure Texas have death penalty for criminals

That photo was from Texas.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:17:25
Quote from: webwit;174520
Do you think Tankman deserved to die?


This question has already been answered:

Quote from: warakawa;174335
If I were the tank driver, i would have shot the guy in the face for having the balls to challenge the party and bring in social instability.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:18:44
Epic Troll.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:18:56
Quote from: webwit;174520
Do you think Tankman deserved to die?


he does: from post #25:


Quote from: warakawa;174335

If I were the tank driver, i would have shot the guy in the face for having the balls to challenge the party and bring in social instability.


update: mental hobbit beat me to it :)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:19:05
Quote from: warakawa;174522
didn't american kill those innocent iraqi reports?

and what's your point showing me that photo? it's called death penalty, she's a criminal, probably a tibetan separatist, which means shooting in the head is justified. I am sure Texas have death penalty for criminals


How many governments officially venerate a dictator that was directly responsible for 60 million deaths in their own country?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:20:06
Quote from: warakawa;174522
didn't american kill those innocent iraqi reports?


...and thats why we have elections.  And uncensored media. Starting to see the value of democracy yet?

not holding my breath of course.  Its hard to beat back a lifetime of imperialistic brainwashing in one forum thread.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: XiNAVRO on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:24:51
Could we ignore the troll and go back to the original topic, please?
The price of Model M back in the 80s interest me much more than a brainwashed totalitarian hypocrite.

(Not to mention that he's using a Japanese nickname. Considering what Japan did back in the WWII era to Taiwan/China, that's like a Polish person using a Hakenkreuz as his avatar)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:26:47
Quote from: XiNAVRO;174533
Could we ignore the troll and go back to the original topic, please?
The price of Model M back in the 80s interest me much more than a brainwashed totalitarian hypocrite.

(Not to mention that he's using a Japanese nickname. Considering what Japan did back in the WWII era to Taiwan/China, that's like a Polish person using a Hakenkreuz as his avatar)


Also, if China's so great, why is he living in Australia?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:27:51
Quote from: webwit;174532
Ehm Free Afghanistan? Shouldn't Americans first be leaving their oil war price which is covered up by propaganda before mentioning Tibet? If only they knew how little they see of the true nature of that war when you are in the US.... on the other hand every time someone points it out to them, they prefer to look the other way. If you are one of those, you can't mention Tibet. That makes all of you. You know. Afghanistan. Where your soldiers are such cowards, they first bomb a place, civilians and all, and then check if the suspect is among them. Each and every day, by strategy. Because you can't have dying American soldiers, so **** the innocent.


:) Afghanistan was not the oil war, Iraq was.  Apparently being in Europe doesnt get you all the information either.
And we had regime change in America to fix it. China will have its regime change, but violently and belatedly, because, well, they're commies.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:29:23
Quote from: warakawa;174535
enlighten me, I still yet to see the advantage of democracy for a large developing nation such as china.

compare china and india. one dictatorship, one democracy. both have 1bn+ people, both developing. tell me which government you prefer. ignoring human rights. CCP in way more efficient at running the government.


you've already said you prefer the efficiency of the bullet.  THere's not much more that can be said to you except to mock you for your fascism and ignorance. Which is what I shall do.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:29:50
And because protesting is the same thing as a coup d'etat.

God, that must make Ireland as dangerous as Somalia...

Also, if it was so obviously an evil plot, why is it censored?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: XiNAVRO on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:32:27
For once, think outside what had been rammed down your throat your entire life. Gather raw information for yourself, filter out the biases, and think for yourself.

We all live only once. Make it worthwhile, use your intelligence.


...Back to topic, please.
Although I don't own one now, I still love Model M, the AK-47 of keyboards.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:33:51
As far as I know, it was the Gas not the Oil that was flowing in Afghanistan...
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:36:39
Quote from: XiNAVRO;174533
Could we ignore the troll and go back to the original topic, please?
The price of Model M back in the 80s interest me much more than a brainwashed totalitarian hypocrite.


I sent clickykeyboards an email asking if they have any info on original selling price of the M... they seem to know much of its history.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:39:13
The ones I know about are on the first page.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:40:59
You still haven't answered why you emigrated from China.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:45:57
Quote from: warakawa;174556
It's perfectly fine to admit that the next superpower is a Asia and/or communist state, and realising democracy is not the best form of government after all. nobody likes to admit to the inferiority of their system, and i perfectly understand your defensive on the subject.


Are you a state? I am a person. That's why I rather care for what's good for me than what might make my country most powerful.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: XiNAVRO on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:45:59
Interesting. Despite the fact that computers and keyboards were not as common as nowadays back then, that's still quite pricey.


Quote from: warakawa;174556
It's perfectly fine to admit that the next nobody likes to admit to the inferiority of their system, and i perfectly understand your defensive on the subject.


You have the words right from my mouth. Although you're aiming the wrong direction there.
Think about what you said, but on yourself.
If the person under dictatorship defends the dictator, then something's seriously wrong.

Like being ordered around and controlled? Be my guest.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:51:03
Quote from: itlnstln;174523
That photo was from Texas.


Holy **** you're right! You can see downtown San Antonio off in the corner.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:53:15
Incidentally, all prices are unadjusted for inflation. Something like the Model F would have cost as much as a decent laptop would today.

I have yet to find out how much a Beam Spring keyboard costs, but bare in mind that the IBM 3180 (which used a Model F) cost $2,500 in the early 80s and that this was considered much cheaper than the older terminals. When you're talking well over $2,500 for a screen, keyboard and logic unit, you can probably realize that it must have cost something ridiculous.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 12:55:47
Oh I know! It's because the Australian government bans everything and thus you feel right at home!
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:02:30
Quote from: warakawa;174572
im here cos i can watch porn on the internet, can see no boobies in china. i am staying here til the chinese government give back my porn watching right.


Humm... doesn't that make you a criminal by Chinese standards?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:02:34
Quote from: warakawa;174572
im here cos i can watch porn on the internet, can see no boobies in china. i am staying here til the chinese government give back my porn watching right.


Should have went to Scandanavia...
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: hyperlinked on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:05:22
Quote from: warakawa;174572
im here cos i can watch porn on the internet, can see no boobies in china. i am staying here til the chinese government give back my porn watching right.


That porn might be the only action you'll be seeing kid. I hear there's a big problem with finding wives in one-child China.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:10:15
Quote from: hyperlinked;174564
Holy **** you're right! You can see downtown San Antonio off in the corner.

Yeah, those Texan death squads.  Gotta love 'em.  This is the patch on their uniforms:

(http://img1.tradeget.com/jazzihong22/PVODNIKR1teabag29k.jpg)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: J888www on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:10:40
There are no slaves in this World, there are no unjust Governments either, we are all born to be Eric Arthur Blair, but some people are more Eric Arthur Blair than others.

All Governments are corrupt in some form or another, some country kill their own Presidents, others sell their own people for body-parts, the people who made the film "Loose Change", the man who is "Five Hundred Miles From Home" et caetera, et caetera, et caetera.

There is no end to this KEY-BORED of discussions.

There is only one certainty, we will eventually end this sojourning and arrive at our destination to be greeted by our Maker, Who-ever He/She/It may be.

Just be sure YOU have nothing to hide.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:12:08
Ah, the Voice of Reason has arrived.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: didjamatic on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:14:25
Quote from: J888www;174585
There are no slaves in this World, there are no unjust Governments either, we are all born to be Eric Arthur Blair, but some people are more Eric Arthur Blair than others.

All Governments are corrupt in some form or another, some country kill their own Presidents, others sell their own people for body-parts, the people who made the film "Loose Change", the man who is "Five Hundred Miles From Home" et caetera, et caetera, et caetera.

There is no end to this KEY-BORED of discussions.

There is only one certainty, we will eventually end this sojourning and arrive at our destination to be greeted by our Maker, Who-ever He/She/It may be.

Just be sure YOU have nothing to hide.


(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/305/facepalm1ve4.jpg)
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: Nonmouse on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:28:50
Quote from: warakawa;174567
wage that's equivalent to 2 years of slave labour making lead toys, i don't know...most tibetan pray instead of work, and it's the chinese people that have to pay taxes so that the government can provide them with welfare.


Speaking of racist generalizations...
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:34:33
You know what?  People suck.  They're always talking and ****ing and reproducing and praying and living and beating each other up and killing each other and killing animals and making rules and yelling and building things and destroying things and fighting and blowing **** up and ****ting and pissing all over the place and eating and drinking and doing drugs and working and cheating and hating and...

The guy from the Matrix was right, people are just virii.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:38:20
Quote from: ripster;174603
Wait, what's wrong with the f***ing thing again?

Exactly.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:45:25
Ha!  Nice.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 22 April 2010, 13:55:10
The whole tooth fairy thing teaches children it's OK to sell body parts.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 14:56:53
Quote from: warakawa;174599
now you know how I felt when I first read that slave labour comment


You mean the "insult" you artificially made-up so you could expound on the greatness of the Fatherland while insulting white people? Yea, we got that.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 22 April 2010, 15:25:36
Quote from: itlnstln;174602
You know what?  People suck.  They're always talking and ****ing and reproducing and praying and living and beating each other up and killing each other and killing animals and making rules and yelling and building things and destroying things and fighting and blowing **** up and ****ting and pissing all over the place and eating and drinking and doing drugs and working and cheating and hating and...

The guy from the Matrix was right, people are just virii.


Right on, man, right on.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: kishy on Thu, 22 April 2010, 16:05:58
Quote from: wellington1869;174529
...and thats why we have ... uncensored media.



ahahahahahahahaha oh that's a good one.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 16:12:29
If the likes of Collateral Murder was published by a Chinese person in relation to something the Chinese government did, how long do you suppose they'd have to live?

People don't understand that there are degrees of things. Just because Fox or CNN is run by the big corporations and are basically are their propaganda machines doesn't automatically mean that America is comparable with China.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: kishy on Thu, 22 April 2010, 16:17:10
I didn't intend to imply it was quite to the same extent. By far, it is not.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 17:02:19
Quote from: itlnstln;174602
You know what?  People suck.  


Yes they do. This is the problem: But some suck a lot more than others. In politics, as in sex, degree is everything.  And you dont have to be spotless yourself to recognize when someone's become dangerous.

See ch123? There's some "relativism" even I cant entertain. I dont know why people have such a hard time with the concept of degree, especially in politics. Anyone who equates the US (in politics, in media censorship, or anything else) with the soviets or the maoists or the taliban or the islamists is someone who's put their sense of discrimination (or of history), for whatever reason, directly into the toilet.

Its one thing to criticize the west -- westerners do that openly and loudly, thanks directly to the very system they live under which still values these things. (Just try that under the taliban (or any evangelicals) or under the soviets or the maoists).  Its quite another to pretend that therefore communism is the same as capitalism, totalitarianism is the same as representative democracy. No, it isnt. Never was. But the extremists want precisely such a loss of context.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 22 April 2010, 17:15:44
Quote from: webwit;174664
The Americans are fascists.


Still? I thought we were socialists now that we exchanged Bush for Obama.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 17:34:54
Quote from: wellington1869;174667
See ch123? There's some "relativism" even I cant entertain. I dont know why people have such a hard time with the concept of degree, especially in politics. Anyone who equates the US (in politics, in media censorship, or anything else) with the soviets or the maoists or the taliban or the islamists is someone who's put their sense of discrimination (or of history), for whatever reason, directly into the toilet.


I had to read that about three times to figure out whether you were agreeing or disagreeing with me =P
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 22 April 2010, 17:50:29
Quote from: ricercar;174669
Still? I thought we were socialists now that we exchanged Bush for Obama.


The claims of socialism are just a smoke screen. Wait till the Republican/Fascist get back in power and repeal all of the 'socialist' legislation.
Then we can get back to the real America. Corporations dictating to the government and big business writing the laws.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: kishy on Thu, 22 April 2010, 18:02:46
Can't forget hospitals ransacking your wallet before allowing you in.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 April 2010, 23:17:51
At risk of bringing this back on topic, I heard back from Brandon at clickykeyboard who was kind enough to send me an amazingly quick reply. He says he probably has some original IBM receipts from the early/mid 80s which probably will have some specific information about original cost of the M keyboard.

Unfortunately it'll take him a month to get to them since they're stored off site.  I told him we'd be delighted with any info he can eventually provide us with.  So at the very least we may have a definitive answer in a month or so.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 23 April 2010, 01:42:38
Major computer makers such as HP, Dell, and Lenovo are motivated by profit, not quality. Part of profit is planned obsolescence, enforcing an upgrade every few years. A keyboard with 50 million key cycles runs counter to the upgrade/replacement business model, so they instead provide less-well-made boards for 500,000 key cycles.

If Apple had intended iPod batteries to last more than 18 months, or had made iPod batteries replaceable, do you think they would have sold so many iPods?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 30 August 2010, 18:01:24
In 1996 -

101/102-key Industrial Model M - $165
Industrial Model M13 - $260
Black M4-1 - $155

Sources - buried deep within IBM webpages from Archive.org
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: JBert on Tue, 31 August 2010, 14:40:27
What was the price for an M15 when it was still made?
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 31 August 2010, 14:45:42
I think it was about $250.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 31 August 2010, 14:47:08
$179 without numpad, $199 including. Then at some point towards the end of production they made the numpad standard.

Oh, and the 122-key Model F was $300 back in 1984.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: JBert on Tue, 31 August 2010, 14:49:27
Cheaper than an M13 - what a steal!

Now where did I park that DeLorian...
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: didjamatic on Tue, 31 August 2010, 15:43:55
Anyone know the IBM PC AT Model F original price?  

I believe we established the Displaywriter's board was over $1k.
Title: What was original price on Model M and Space Saver?
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 31 August 2010, 16:42:38
The $1k figure was an estimation, I might try and dig up some info and find out how much they cost.

The AT Model F is something I have also been on the lookout for. If any vintage folks have access to product announcements or the like from IBM about the AT, or indeed any 80s-vintage IBM terminal, PC, workstation or otherwise, do let me know.

I remember a Finnish member giving us a concrete price for the XT Model F. Problem of course is converting 80s Finnish Marks to 80s Dollars, but I guesstimated that it was in the $300-400 region.
Title: Re: What was original price on Model M and Space Saving KB?
Post by: leech on Wed, 25 October 2017, 13:56:51
the pricing information in this thread is unclear. i found this thread thru google search because ive been wondering myself.

i am gathering, the price of a retail unit Model M in the mid 90's was:

150US$ (1995 vendor's asking price, same as IBM's official list price)

Is that about correct?

http://www.clickeykeyboards.com/model-m-gallery/originally-how-much-was-the-model-m-keyboard-in-1986-dollars/