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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: phoenix on Fri, 23 April 2010, 02:20:01

Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: phoenix on Fri, 23 April 2010, 02:20:01: Many of you are familiar with the rubber band/washer mod to reduce impact on bottom-out.

Geekhackers' attempts on Cherry key caps:
Washers: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5450
Dental rubber bands: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8857

Did you know that IBM once had it as a standard option? Not on Model Ms, but on Wheelwriters with Model M style keyboards.

I picked up a few broken Wheelwriter keyboards today from a local typewriter store to salvage some fun keys (will show in a later post when I have time). When I popped the caps off one of the boards I noticed something unusual. There are rubber o-rings under the keys, and the large keys all have stabilizers (very uncommon on Wheelwriters because they use Model M style round inserts).

O-rings:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9358&stc=1&d=1272005227)

Stabilizers:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9359&stc=1&d=1272005241)

The slot for the stabilizers are glued onto the standard Wheelwriter plate. I have 4 other plates in different shapes and sizes and none of them have these stabilizer slots.

According to Jim, the owner, the rubber o-rings and stabilizers come as an option on certain boards, and they are fairly rare.

The o-rings are kind of stiff. I'm not sure if it's because they are old or they were designed that way. One thing I'm sure is that they are not meant to reduce noise. When the machine is typing, it is so loud you can hardly even hear the buckling snap of the keys themselves.

Edit: corrected the terminology from washer to o-ring. Thanks Didjamatic.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 23 April 2010, 06:16:19: Ooh, that's really interesting. I wonder what their dimensions are...

Do they make much of a difference?

To me, the most logical place to put them is on the inside of the key around the top of the stem. It would seem to me that most of the impact would take place between the top of the barrel and the inside of the key.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: didjamatic on Fri, 23 April 2010, 07:57:29: Funny, I've done the exact mod to Model M's with o-rings for fuel injectors and I liked it.

FYI - o-rings are round, washers are flat, so the IBM mod would have had o-rings.

(http://www.motofab.com/images/repair/cam_chain_tensioner/injector_oring_02.jpg)
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 23 April 2010, 09:02:30: if they werent there to reduce noise, what was their purpose? Just to provide a soft landing?
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: kishy on Fri, 23 April 2010, 09:48:56: From the way it looks, probably to provide a softer landing than anything else. It looks like the key would have hit the 'rubber band' before hitting bottom.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 23 April 2010, 10:09:45: Quote from: ripster;174888
O-rings are HARD rubber by design.

The words in this sentence are reminiscent of the vending machines in truck stop restrooms. I always find it funny, too, because most of the people there that might take advantage of said vending machine wouldn't get any from a blind lady. That said, I guess you can pay for anything.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 25 April 2010, 08:44:11: Quote from: ripster;174888
O-rings are HARD rubber by design.

The Dental bands are real softies.

Well......o-rings can be made from just about anything. Rubber, Viton, Buna-N, and come in various hardness and colors.

I collect Difeo yo-yos and I purchased various o-rings for different colors and weights for the rims.

Check it out here:

Allorings (http://www.allorings.com/)

I have simple silicone o-rings at the office and I think I'll try this when I re-assemble my next Space Saving Mini. I'll place rings on 1/2 of the board and leave the other 1/2 of the board standard.

While I'm at it, I'd like to try some sorbothane sheets btwn the metal plate and the bottom casing. I tried typing on the board while it sets on a gel mat and it feels pretty nice.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 25 April 2010, 08:49:14: Now I've got the bug to try this mod. I'll measure some sizes and try a variety of different o-rings. Big order for o-rings getting placed tomorrow. :)

skc
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: didjamatic on Sun, 25 April 2010, 09:01:42: Yep, which material you use is very important in yo-yo's that use an o-ring based response system.

When I used o-rings on my Model M, they did not affect the travel of the keys, they only affected the sound and feel.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/3497872060_3d8c33742c_b.jpg)
(Born Crucial Milk Yo-Yo by Paul Yath. Machined delrin body, machined aluminum response system, stainless steel bearing, silicone o-rings.)
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 25 April 2010, 09:32:41: Quote from: didjamatic;175768
Yep, which material you use is very important in yo-yo's that use an o-ring based response system.

When I used o-rings on my Model M, they did not affect the travel of the keys, they only affected the sound and feel.

Show Image
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/3497872060_3d8c33742c_b.jpg)

(Born Crucial Milk Yo-Yo by Paul Yath. Machined delrin body, machined aluminum response system, stainless steel bearing, silicone o-rings.)

C'mon Didj.......aren't you down with silicone response???? Orings are too fidgety.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: phoenix on Sun, 25 April 2010, 20:43:03: Quote from: ch_123;174802
Ooh, that's really interesting. I wonder what their dimensions are...

Do they make much of a difference?

To me, the most logical place to put them is on the inside of the key around the top of the stem. It would seem to me that most of the impact would take place between the top of the barrel and the inside of the key.

I didn't measure but the center diameter of the o-ring is a perfect match to the center diameter of the circular skirt on the inside of the key cap, so the skirt will hit the o-ring before the key hits the top of the barrel.

They make a very small but noticeable difference, especially when I compare one with and one without. The o-ring makes the landing softer and quieter, and maybe a little less wiggly when you bottom out, if I'm not imagining things. At least the plastic-on-plastic clack is much reduced. The o-ring reduces the total key travel by less than a mm.

I originally said it's not meant to reduce noise only because on a wheelwriter the reduction in key noise is pretty meaningless when the typing noise is so loud. I think the o-rings would be nice for regular typing on the Model Ms.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: skcheng on Mon, 26 April 2010, 09:22:02: Okay, so I tried this on my nuts/bolts Mini. I used Buna-N o-rings with a fractional dimension of 7/16 and an L.D. x Cross Section of .426 x .070.

I don't know......I don't really feel much of a difference. Soundwise or otherwise? Maybe they're too small?? I'll try some other diameters and report back.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: JBert on Mon, 26 April 2010, 15:16:23: This kind of mod is truly subtle. I placed dental bands on top of the barrels for the modifier keys on my model F. The sound might not be different, bottoming out is.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: sethstorm on Mon, 26 April 2010, 19:30:59: Quote from: phoenix;174782
Many of you are familiar with the rubber band/washer mod to reduce impact on bottom-out.

Geekhackers' attempts on Cherry key caps:
Washers: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5450
Dental rubber bands: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8857

Did you know that IBM once had it as a standard option? Not on Model Ms, but on Wheelwriters with Model M style keyboards.

I picked up a few broken Wheelwriter keyboards today from a local typewriter store to salvage some fun keys (will show in a later post when I have time). When I popped the caps off one of the boards I noticed something unusual. There are rubber o-rings under the keys, and the large keys all have stabilizers (very uncommon on Wheelwriters because they use Model M style round inserts).

O-rings:
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9358&stc=1&d=1272005227)

Stabilizers:
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9359&stc=1&d=1272005241)

The slot for the stabilizers are glued onto the standard Wheelwriter plate. I have 4 other plates in different shapes and sizes and none of them have these stabilizer slots.

According to Jim, the owner, the rubber o-rings and stabilizers come as an option on certain boards, and they are fairly rare.

The o-rings are kind of stiff. I'm not sure if it's because they are old or they were designed that way. One thing I'm sure is that they are not meant to reduce noise. When the machine is typing, it is so loud you can hardly even hear the buckling snap of the keys themselves.

Edit: corrected the terminology from washer to o-ring. Thanks Didjamatic.

Looking at the Wheelwriter keyboard - they seem to be close enough to do a USB Controller mod on them. The Wheelwriter 3500 looks a bit like a more Space-saving Space saver w/ a Model M board.

I'm a bit interested in the keyboard deck of those for that reason. While you don't get F11/F12, you have something that approaches HHKB minimalism.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 26 April 2010, 19:54:03: There're a bunch of those Wheelwriters at my workplace. As a matter of fact, I was using one the other day to print out some labels.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 26 April 2010, 19:57:00: Quote from: microsoft windows;176331
There're a bunch of those Wheelwriters at my workplace. As a matter of fact, I was using one the other day to print out some labels.

you should harvest some of those rings and try them out on an M.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 26 April 2010, 20:03:09: The Wheelwriters don't have 101 keys though. There wouldn't be enough rubber rings I'm afraid. I'd have to steal two typewriters' worth probably.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: sethstorm on Mon, 26 April 2010, 20:15:43: Quote from: microsoft windows;176347
The Wheelwriters don't have 101 keys though. There wouldn't be enough rubber rings I'm afraid. I'd have to steal two typewriters' worth probably.

Some of them are close enough to the 83/84 key boards that you could construct your own board off those.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 26 April 2010, 20:24:18: Quote from: microsoft windows;176347
I'd have to steal two typewriters' worth probably.

would they notice at work? :)
you could also put them just on the alphanumeric keys, i think that comes out to 45 or so. I wonder what they'd feel like and if there would be any sound dampening on an M.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: phoenix on Tue, 27 April 2010, 23:08:19: If you want HHKB minimalism, Wheelwriter 3 is what you need---5 keys in a vertical row on both sides of the main area and nothing else. Wheelwriter 5 has 10 keys in two vertical rows on the left and one row on the right. WW 3500 and later are the closest to a normal keyboard, while 2500, 1500 and 1000 are simplified versions still with arrow keys on the right but not enough keys for a full tenkeyless board (not enough barrels but the membrane has the unused contacts). You can find out more on Lexmarks website (scroll to the bottom for typewriters):

http://images.lexmark.com/publications/pdfs/2007/index/en.html

If you want to spend money, you can buy new WW 5000 and 7000 keyboards, both the same as 3500, from EBM (Lexington, Kentucky! I wonder if Unicomp makes any parts for them. EBM was once part of IBM.) online for $80. This is from my research on them a while ago so you'll have to find out yourself.

I'll try to post pictures of all the Wheelwriter boards I have when I have time.

Quote from: sethstorm;176318
Looking at the Wheelwriter keyboard - they seem to be close enough to do a USB Controller mod on them. The Wheelwriter 3500 looks a bit like a more Space-saving Space saver w/ a Model M board.

I'm a bit interested in the keyboard deck of those for that reason. While you don't get F11/F12, you have something that approaches HHKB minimalism.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: sethstorm on Thu, 29 April 2010, 10:41:13: Quote from: phoenix;176761
If you want HHKB minimalism, Wheelwriter 3 is what you need---5 keys in a vertical row on both sides of the main area and nothing else. Wheelwriter 5 has 10 keys in two vertical rows on the left and one row on the right. WW 3500 and later are the closest to a normal keyboard, while 2500, 1500 and 1000 are simplified versions still with arrow keys on the right but not enough keys for a full tenkeyless board (not enough barrels but the membrane has the unused contacts). You can find out more on Lexmarks website (scroll to the bottom for typewriters):

http://images.lexmark.com/publications/pdfs/2007/index/en.html

If you want to spend money, you can buy new WW 5000 and 7000 keyboards, both the same as 3500, from EBM (Lexington, Kentucky! I wonder if Unicomp makes any parts for them. EBM was once part of IBM.) online for $80. This is from my research on them a while ago so you'll have to find out yourself.

I'll try to post pictures of all the Wheelwriter boards I have when I have time.

Looked at EBM's site, just that they had exchange/repair, not "board-only" prices.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: phoenix on Thu, 29 April 2010, 11:45:05: I thought this is for just the board, no?

http://ebmstore.com/VALUE/Itemdesc.asp?ic=1400531

Quote from: sethstorm;177278
Looked at EBM's site, just that they had exchange/repair, not "board-only" prices.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: sethstorm on Thu, 29 April 2010, 21:21:40: Quote from: phoenix;177307
I thought this is for just the board, no?

http://ebmstore.com/VALUE/Itemdesc.asp?ic=1400531

That (and the other parts such as the bezel) seems to be what I'm looking for. Thanks.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: sethstorm on Fri, 30 April 2010, 18:30:55: (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9559&stc=1&d=1272669627)

That's the column/row connectors (IIRC) off an M13(could get one off a regular M, but they appear to be close enough to each other).

How does the Wheelwriter compare to that with its respective connector? At the very least, it might be able to be plugged in to an M style controller if it isnt too different. Yes, there may be differencs between Wheelwriters, but it would be a good proof-of-concept if if works.
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: phoenix on Mon, 03 May 2010, 02:03:15: Quote from: sethstorm;177650
That's the column/row connectors (IIRC) off an M13(could get one off a regular M, but they appear to be close enough to each other).

How does the Wheelwriter compare to that with its respective connector? At the very least, it might be able to be plugged in to an M style controller if it isnt too different. Yes, there may be differencs between Wheelwriters, but it would be a good proof-of-concept if if works.

As promised, here are the pictures.

WW 3 (I didn't want to crack it open because all rivets are good. I believe it shares the same matrix as the 5 even though it has only one row of keys on the left.)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9630&stc=1&d=1272869400)

WW 5
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9631&stc=1&d=1272869407)

WW 5 (keys removed)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9632&stc=1&d=1272869416)

WW 5 (rubber sheet below the front plate)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9633&stc=1&d=1272869428)

WW 5 (matrix)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9634&stc=1&d=1272869434)

WW 1000
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9635&stc=1&d=1272869448)

WW 1000 (matrix)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9636&stc=1&d=1272869453)

Notice the unused contacts on the WW 1000 matrix. All keys on higher-end models like 3500 are covered so I'm guessing the matrix remains the same for them.

More info here (go all the way down for the keyboards):

http://www.typewriters.com/typewriter-parts-3.html
Title: Rubber band padding: the original official IBM option?
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 15 June 2010, 09:54:05: Kinda raising this up from the dead here, but I got around to checking out a Wheelwriter at the local PBS station while I was volunteering for fundraising. The click in this thing is something else. I would have hated to work in an office with a bunch of these. It could have been the age of the rubber bands or something, but I don't think they really affect the keyfeel much.