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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: Peripheral Prophet on Sat, 09 February 2019, 14:21:15

Title: When the hobby goes to far.
Post by: Peripheral Prophet on Sat, 09 February 2019, 14:21:15: Ok, check this out.. I was looking around the internet for an available keyboard that was custom cnc, but everything is either sold out, or the focus is solely on 60%, leaving many people looking for bigger boards out of options. I dont like sitting around waiting for a group buy, that gets old.. So I finally decided after about 3 years of pretty solid deliberation to purchase a cnc machine and I am going to make my own keyboards (and a lot of other things). Im currently looking at two companies, Tormach, and Haas, and Ill probably go with the cheaper of the two considering I would just be starting out.

Wife is totally losing it right now because she doesnt think its wise to spend that kind of money just to make a keyboard, and then what? Well, you dont buy a cnc machine to use once, which means I would likely be doing freelance work or producing things to sell, if anything as a brick and mortar business to keep the money coming in, this is likely going to mean a career change essentially if it goes where I think it will..

What I would love to see is someone in the united states producing high end custom keyboards that you see from Rama and others over seas. I want to see people in the US be able to actually get a ultra high end keyboard whenever they wanted, without the group buy hassle.. I could be wrong but we could use more guys over here making full on custom boards like you see out east..

Am I completely crazy? who would be interested in a stateside custom cnc keyboard manufacturer?
Title: Re: When the hobby goes to far.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 February 2019, 14:38:29: a CNC machine is not expensive.

Just as, Exercise equipment is not expensive.

What IS EXPENSIVE, is human LABOR TIME spent using the machine.

Having the machine is just the very beginning, now you want to make something, you need to create it in cad, setup the cam, manually check every step of the cam which could be 100s on complex geometries, Then you send it to the machine, it PROBABLY won't work first go, Something probably went wrong with the cam, and you need to go back and edit a bunch of times, the post processor screws up the gcode again, go back, manual edit.

Now, you do this for 1 keyboard, if you only sell 20 of them, how much do you have to charge ? what if you only sold 10.

This is why most cnc places don't even want to deal with small fry keyboard guys, because the setup time on their end, and the back and forth discussion with _the knowledge blank customer_ is tedious, making the job not worthwhile.

And fundamentally, if you look at keyboards, it's a huge waste of resources to machine out of metal, because it's just a decoration that has no function.

For a serious machinist, machine shop, they'd consider it a waste of THEIR LIFE to bother with such a thing.

Yea, you'll find shops that will do it for the right price, but again, I've always been firm on this, it's wasteful and childish.

Going back to the pizza baker example, if the customer is buying pizzas and throwing them in the river, it doesn't matter how much the pizza baker is paid for the pizzas, the customer is Throwing that man's LIFE in a river.

Waste is Waste

TP4 am ashamed to admit, has thrown immense many pizzas in the river.. Tp4 am as guilty as the rest of y'all, Tp4 am AWARE
Title: Re: When the hobby goes to far.
Post by: xtrafrood on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:01:32: I wouldn't say buying a CNC for such a thing is crazy. Especially if you make the machine available for CNC networks that offer CNC services kinda like one can search a local network for a nearby 3D printer operators (out of the garage, etc.) that'll print a few parts. Though I would be curious as to what kind of equipment you're referring to specifically. I know when I first heard of CNC if one had to ask the price one couldn't afford any kind of setup. These days with garage DIY focused CNC companies popping up (e.g. Inventables with the X-Carve) it's a heck of a lot more affordable for small part workflows.

IDK if I would use an X-Carve though..
Title: Re: When the hobby goes to far.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:09:59: Quote from: csmertx on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:01:32

IDK if I would use an X-Carve though..

Those machines are more suitable for wood, you can cut metal VERY SLOWLY. Not a production capable machine for metal. They have very little rigidity, you won't get a good finish on metal, not with any speed anyway. Precision is also dubious (unnecessary for wood).

Hass and Tormach make the cheapest production possible machines which some hobbyists buy.. But again, it's not the cost of the machine that's the problem, There's a reason why machining is a job and less a hobby.

The bigger machines are also quite heavy. If you leave it in a garage, large temperature difference can influence the cut, so best insulate.
Title: Re: When the hobby goes to far.
Post by: xtrafrood on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:45:39: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:09:59
Quote from: csmertx on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:01:32

IDK if I would use an X-Carve though..

Those machines are more suitable for wood, you can cut metal VERY SLOWLY. Not a production capable machine for metal. They have very little rigidity, you won't get a good finish on metal, not with any speed anyway. Precision is also dubious (unnecessary for wood).

Hass and Tormach make the cheapest production possible machines which some hobbyists buy.. But again, it's not the cost of the machine that's the problem, There's a reason why machining is a job and less a hobby.

The bigger machines are also quite heavy. If you leave it in a garage, large temperature difference can influence the cut, so best insulate.

I'd rather 3D print a high rez master, prep it a bit for molding, and cast the end result with resin. I don't think I'm motivated enough to run my own CNC mill.. holy moly.. :eek:
Title: Re: When the hobby goes to far.
Post by: kinglukas38 on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:46:35: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 February 2019, 14:38:29

This is why most cnc places don't even want to deal with small fry keyboard guys, because the setup time on their end, and the back and forth discussion with _the knowledge blank customer_ is tedious, making the job not worthwhile.

I would say most shops don't want to deal with making keyboards for the reasons you've stated above, but job shops exist solely to fill that gap and they charge accordingly.

Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 February 2019, 14:38:29

And fundamentally, if you look at keyboards, it's a huge waste of resources to machine out of metal, because it's just a decoration that has no function.

Coming from the person who wanted to cnc a keycap out of metal. Plenty of items in this world are made from metal and only serve as decoration. Plus chips get recycled.

Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 February 2019, 14:38:29

For a serious machinist, machine shop, they'd consider it a waste of THEIR LIFE to bother with such a thing.

Yea, you'll find shops that will do it for the right price, but again, I've always been firm on this, it's wasteful and childish.

You must talk to some different machinists than I do. Setting up the machine, proving cam, optimizing toolpaths, and in the end making (pretty) parts is part of their job and they likely do it every day. I don't think I know of anyone more proud than a machinist when s/he makes a part perfect to the drawing.
Title: Re: When the hobby goes to far.
Post by: Peripheral Prophet on Sat, 09 February 2019, 16:23:44: Quote from: csmertx on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:01:32
I wouldn't say buying a CNC for such a thing is crazy. Especially if you make the machine available for CNC networks that offer CNC services kinda like one can search a local network for a nearby 3D printer operators (out of the garage, etc.) that'll print a few parts. Though I would be curious as to what kind of equipment you're referring to specifically. I know when I first heard of CNC if one had to ask the price one couldn't afford any kind of setup. These days with garage DIY focused CNC companies popping up (e.g. Inventables with the X-Carve) it's a heck of a lot more affordable for small part workflows.

IDK if I would use an X-Carve though..

This is what I am looking at buying.

(https://s3-us-east-2.amazonaws.com/tormach-images-web/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/19202317/tormach-1100m-deluxe-package-straight-on.png)

(https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/haascnc/machines/vertical-mills/minimill/models/mini-mill/gallery/haasminimill-rangle.png)
Title: Re: When the hobby goes to far.
Post by: xtrafrood on Sat, 09 February 2019, 16:26:14: Quote from: Peripheral Prophet on Sat, 09 February 2019, 16:23:44
Quote from: csmertx on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:01:32
I wouldn't say buying a CNC for such a thing is crazy. Especially if you make the machine available for CNC networks that offer CNC services kinda like one can search a local network for a nearby 3D printer operators (out of the garage, etc.) that'll print a few parts. Though I would be curious as to what kind of equipment you're referring to specifically. I know when I first heard of CNC if one had to ask the price one couldn't afford any kind of setup. These days with garage DIY focused CNC companies popping up (e.g. Inventables with the X-Carve) it's a heck of a lot more affordable for small part workflows.

IDK if I would use an X-Carve though..

Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:09:59
Quote from: csmertx on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:01:32

IDK if I would use an X-Carve though..

This is what I am looking at buying.

Show Image
(https://s3-us-east-2.amazonaws.com/tormach-images-web/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/19202317/tormach-1100m-deluxe-package-straight-on.png)

Show Image
(https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/haascnc/machines/vertical-mills/minimill/models/mini-mill/gallery/haasminimill-rangle.png)

Figured you did your homework. :thumb: neat
Title: Re: When the hobby goes to far.
Post by: Peripheral Prophet on Sat, 09 February 2019, 16:39:28: Quote from: csmertx on Sat, 09 February 2019, 15:01:32
Especially if you make the machine available for CNC networks

I probably would be interested in doing that considering there is good money in it.. Way I see it, the cnc will pay for itself relatively soon and Ill have the ability to prototype in cad, mill the material, and have an end product in less than a day.. Forget having to send the files off and wait on someone elses lead time only to have to go through that again if I didnt like something or needed a revision.