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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Pixel_Outlaw on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:22:25

Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Pixel_Outlaw on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:22:25
TO COLLECT THEIR HEAVENLY KEYBOARDS!!!

Yes, picked these two up from a local Catholic College, free for both. The AT&T is built just like a Model M inside, this leads me to believe that there are plenty of mechanical keyboards out there that might be missed by people because they are not branded by IBM/Lexmark. The IBM has a permanent cord, as does the AT&T. The AT&T has keycaps the IBM does not. The case is very slightly different at the edges too. Both are fine heavy keyboards. They had a box of 10 or so boards but would only give me 2, the rest were going to eBay and Goodwill. :(

I'm denture tabbing the Model M keys right now. Pretty bad stuff under the keys like half a dog and a continental breakfast.

Model M 0163398
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2051/dsc00372w.jpg)

Sticker
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2378/dsc00373yz.jpg)


AT&T
(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/980/dsc00371r.jpg)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:30:45
Awesome!  Unfortunately I bought 2 NIB AT&T boards once thinking they were mechanical and they were keytronics.  AT&T is big enough I'm sure there are many variations to be found.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:32:02
Good find.  I didn't think those AT&T 'boards had BS.  You would know better than me, though.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Pixel_Outlaw on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:40:32
It was pretty interesting to find an "offbrand" clicker.

Here is the model info in case you are inclined to find one.
(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1259/dsc00376h.jpg)

Shot of the cap,key and spring.
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6276/dsc00375wm.jpg)

Here you can see the case difference.
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1176/dsc00370hv.jpg)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:43:33
It's very strange... the lock light area looks too small, and having the logo printed straight on the case is odd too, but otherwise it's clearly a Model M. Is there a label on the back.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: kishy on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:44:17
Whoa! IBM style buckling springs but not by IBM?

CH, the case just doesn't look like a Model M to me, not sure what the difference is but it doesn't look right. Same guts in a different case maybe?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ksd5 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:46:03
That's odd. I thought that IBM/Lexmark had exclusive rights to the buckling spring mechanism. Either AT&T licensed it from them, or they illegally implemented the technology.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: kishy on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:47:42
The little bumps around the spring barrels look like what you find in a Model M.

I think the deck inside is probably built by Lexmark...case, at least as seen in photos here, isn't matching a Model M.

Edit: it's the front edge. That is distinctly not a Model M case.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:48:21
It's an OEM rebrand. Just like the Dell Model Ms -

(http://www.clickykeyboard.com/_ebay/dell_lex/dell_lex-001.jpg)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: kishy on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:49:58
Quote from: ch_123;183238
It's an OEM rebrand. Just like the Dell Model Ms -

Show Image
(http://www.clickykeyboard.com/_ebay/dell_lex/dell_lex-001.jpg)


See the edit that was just made. Totally different case.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:50:30
Quote from: kishy;183234
Whoa! IBM style buckling springs but not by IBM?

CH, the case just doesn't look like a Model M to me, not sure what the difference is but it doesn't look right. Same guts in a different case maybe?


You're right, the case is a different shape. Where as an IBM is wedge shaped with the curvature contained within, the whole body of that AT&T is curved.

I'm still convinced it's made by IBM/Lexmark.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Pixel_Outlaw on Mon, 17 May 2010, 15:55:22
I'd love to open up the AT&T for you gents but I don't have a socket that will fit inside at the moment...

When I saw it in the box it defiantly caused a logic error in my brain. This may mean that there are great affordable keyboards out there that are indeed on par with the Model M that are simply not being collected and are therefore ripe for the taking.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:01:05
There's no reason why a standard Model M keyboard assembly wouldn't fit inside that case. Either IBM made the casing for AT&T, or AT&T made their own case... I'm thinking that the former would be more likely.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:02:48
On this photo it looks like the barrel plate isn't flat (well, curved), but as if it has a  recession around or below the barrel.

Quote from: Pixel_Outlaw;183231
Show Image
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6276/dsc00375wm.jpg)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:05:01
Is it just me, or is the bottom half of that double part key different to a regular one?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:36:30
Quote from: webwit;183261
It's a Japanese IBM board in a non-Japanese format.

Are you saying that they are using the Brother modules, or is it based on a different 'board?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:38:06
I don't think so... That barrel doesn't look removable.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:41:47
I didn't think so, either.  It's pretty damn interesting.  Weren't the good folks at AT&T responsible for the patent showing the piece of foam in a buckling spring to reduce the "pinging" sound?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: pfink on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:45:37
Quote from: Pixel_Outlaw;183242
This may mean that there are great affordable keyboards out there that are indeed on par with the Model M that are simply not being collected and are therefore ripe for the taking.


Affordable? Eh, maybe, maybe not...

http://cgi.ebay.com/AT-T-KBD-305B-Keyboard-FCC-ID-AS593MK305-PS-2-Clicky-/200448465308
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:47:24
Maybe it's just an AT&T-made 'board with BS technology licensed from IBM.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:50:36
Unlikely. Would AT&T need enough keyboards to make it worth their time setting up their own production line when IBM was already making them for everyone else?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Pixel_Outlaw on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:51:30
Quote from: pfink;183268
Affordable? Eh, maybe, maybe not...

http://cgi.ebay.com/AT-T-KBD-305B-Keyboard-FCC-ID-AS593MK305-PS-2-Clicky-/200448465308


Thst is exactly like mine. I was going to post a pic of the bottom later but I am currently sticking keys back on my Model M I got today. The feet are maybe the most interesting thing. They pull strait down from the board and offer little notches along the back to hook against the case. Also as you can probably see the cord comes out from the middle. It uses an odd telephone line looking connector with only a single locking tab. I guess they are already on to the whole AT&T model hahaha. So much for an affordable collectible.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:53:38
Can you swap a key from an IBM to the AT&T and vice-versa?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Pixel_Outlaw on Mon, 17 May 2010, 16:56:04
Yes I can, they are identical in every way.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:11:49
Care to check the key resistance until click with a Ripometer?  (stack of coins... nickels are 5g, pennies about 2.5g)


FYI - Some of this model have serial connectors rather than PS/2.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:13:07
It's going to be the same. Of course, BS are quite hard to accurately measure so the best thing here is to pop it open and see what's inside.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:28:03
But what if this one is capacitive, has lighter springs using Hanzo steel and mithiril hammers?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ricercar on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:35:39
There are off brand model Ms. I have an Alaris in the shop for a bolt mod.

Pic pending. SD card adapter is MIA.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:37:36
This one is interesting because it has a custom case design.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:40:56
Quote from: ch_123;183291
This one is interesting because it has a custom case design.


The LED label happens to be the same as a Model M. I guess IBM loved that dark grey label: so much in fact that they reused it on the black M13s without bothering to change the colouring.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: kishy on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:42:18
Wow...I never noticed that before.

It goes pretty well though, I must say.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:48:01
Quote from: kishy;183293
Wow...I never noticed that before.

It goes pretty well though, I must say.


I like the later lexmark ones that were just the creamy light colour without the bordering... or one like this:
(http://www.clickykeyboard.com/2005/06h4520/06h4520-007.jpg)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:49:30
Quote from: ch_123;183294
Wrong and wrong. The Black M13 has a darker colour and white text.
And while the colours are the same, the markings on the AT&T are different.


It's still that dark grey colour...
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:50:54
It's more of a black grey as opposed to a greenish grey. Trust me, I've had my M13 beside a 1391406, they're not the same.

That one in that picture is a Unicomp one, made in 2003...
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 17 May 2010, 17:52:46
Quote from: ch_123;183297
It's more of a black grey as opposed to a greenish grey. Trust me, I've had my M13 beside a 1391406, they're not the same.


Alright I'll trust you!
(http://www.kidsfunfile.com/Leprechaun__Shamrock4.jpg)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: kishy on Mon, 17 May 2010, 18:10:53
Quote from: ch_123;183297
It's more of a black grey as opposed to a greenish grey. Trust me, I've had my M13 beside a 1391406, they're not the same.

That one in that picture is a Unicomp one, made in 2003...


Is it not possible it's the same label but because of darker plastic behind it, it appears ...nevermind, white writing. EIBM, I'll never forgive you for this.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 17 May 2010, 23:24:39
Quote from: kishy;183303
Is it not possible it's the same label but because of darker plastic behind it, it appears ...nevermind, white writing. EIBM, I'll never forgive you for this.


Hmmm... someone else needs to go to a catholic college and take a seminar called "forgiveness" =p
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: kishy on Mon, 17 May 2010, 23:26:59
Alright, I forgive you, anything...just as long as I don't need to join one of those cults.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: EverythingIBM on Mon, 17 May 2010, 23:30:28
Quote from: kishy;183396
Alright, I forgive you, anything...just as long as I don't need to join one of those cults.


Sorry, you must join the IBM cult, or, you are not allowed to possess model M keyboards.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: kishy on Mon, 17 May 2010, 23:38:45
Aren't I already in it? I've got two PS/2s. Hardcore IBMers don't touch IBM hardware newer than P1.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: EverythingIBM on Tue, 18 May 2010, 00:57:58
Quote from: kishy;183399
Aren't I already in it? I've got two PS/2s. Hardcore IBMers don't touch IBM hardware newer than P1.


I hate those types of IBMers. One of them scoffed at my intellistation and only wanted literally useless IBM stuff ("13 stripes only"). He blocked my email lol. Whatever... I like IBM equipment that I can use.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: kishy on Tue, 18 May 2010, 01:00:35
Well, if you happened to preach 300PL stuff, that'd do it. You're the only person I've even heard of who finds those machines even slightly non-destruction-worthy.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: EverythingIBM on Tue, 18 May 2010, 01:17:57
Quote from: kishy;183411
Well, if you happened to preach 300PL stuff, that'd do it. You're the only person I've even heard of who finds those machines even slightly non-destruction-worthy.


Well, I like type 6562 in particular. The newer ones spin the fans way too fast and make too much noise (due to having ****ty heatsinks and too much voltage)... it ruins my DOS experience.

300PLs have a really cool case design, I can't explain it. It's just cool!
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 18 May 2010, 05:06:27
Quote from: kishy;183399
Aren't I already in it? I've got two PS/2s. Hardcore IBMers don't touch IBM hardware newer than P1.


Leaving aside my lifelong dream to have a System/Z in my basement (and indeed to have a basement in the first place) what you're saying definitely holds true of x86 desktops after the PS/2.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: kishy on Tue, 18 May 2010, 11:58:15
Quote from: ch_123;183425
Leaving aside my lifelong dream to have a System/Z in my basement (and indeed to have a basement in the first place) what you're saying definitely holds true of x86 desktops after the PS/2.

Don't get a basement, you'll fill it with stuff.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: quadibloc on Tue, 18 May 2010, 12:54:14
I'm just impressed by the fact that it is a Model M with keycaps with italic printing on them. Obviously, that will appeal to people who want to use an adapter to connect them to a Macintosh.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 18 May 2010, 13:03:23
For some reason, I am very intrigued by the AT&T 'board.  I want to know more about it.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 18 May 2010, 13:40:58
Quote from: quadibloc;183563
I'm just impressed by the fact that it is a Model M with keycaps with italic printing on them. Obviously, that will appeal to people who want to use an adapter to connect them to a Macintosh.


The German Ambra Model Ms had italics as well.

(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9908/ambra3pr7.jpg)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Pixel_Outlaw on Tue, 18 May 2010, 14:52:38
OK I will open it tonight. I'm currently on lunch.
One big difference is that it is about only 1/2 the volume of a normal IBM spring.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Pixel_Outlaw on Tue, 18 May 2010, 20:18:33
Ok as promised.


This is the chipset and light assembly.
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6273/dsc00383r.jpg)
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7614/dsc00381r.jpg)

Here you can see the curve of the board.
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9038/dsc00378z.jpg)

Another pic of the light assembly.
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/9963/dsc00379d.jpg)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 19 May 2010, 05:16:04
Quote from: ripster;183892
Wow.  That does not look like any controller or case I've ever seen from IBM.  Looks like a 42H/Unicomp main assembly though.  I like the Swiss cheese LED cutouts.


Nope. In the 42H, the controller slots directly into the assembly... That's nothing like IBM ever made, and if IBM made it, why would they bother designing such a completely different case/internals for AT&T?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 19 May 2010, 07:39:28
I still think AT&T may have licensed the technology and built their own.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 19 May 2010, 07:57:50
That, and the AT&T folks seemed to have had a real affinity for IBM stuff back then.  Maybe it was just an attempt to build a better M.  I, for one, like it a lot.  I might keep my eye on eBay for one at some point.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 19 May 2010, 08:08:39
I would really like to know if the resistance is the same on the keys as a Model M or if it's different.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Phaedrus2129 on Wed, 19 May 2010, 08:16:28
That PCB looks a little like a breadboard. :p


Someone said something about a special jack earlier. Maybe they needed a special controller for whatever machine this was hooked up to?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 19 May 2010, 11:15:26
Quote from: ripster;184069
AT&T ... just Bell South in drag.


Actually there are two baby bells under the covers now. 'Bell South in Drag' was bought by Cingular, which had previously bought Pacific Bell. I'd be SOOOO amused if they also bought Northwestern Bell and Bell Atlantic.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 19 May 2010, 13:11:47
Used to work in those buildings after they were SGI and before they were Google. Really hard to play ping pong under a metal roof in the rain. Audio cues are pretty much required.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: xyzzy on Wed, 19 May 2010, 14:05:21
Quote from: dw_junon;78312

AT&T got this patent (http://www.google.com/patents?id=Woc5AAAAEBAJ) in '89 for a quieted buckling spring keyswitch mechanism.


Maybe they used that patent after all...
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: JBert on Thu, 20 May 2010, 15:56:40
Quote from: ch_123;183278
It's going to be the same. Of course, BS are quite hard to accurately measure so the best thing here is to pop it open and see what's inside.
When measuring, I try to apply some good old-fashioned dithering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Etymology) to make the springs buckle more consistently. The friction in the keycaps would otherwise cause to much variation.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: MissileMike on Mon, 16 August 2010, 11:17:19
Hey guys, I have one of these at&t boards.  This one is pretty dirty and it's missing 3 keycaps.  Sadly, model m keycaps to fin on it, but the color and print are different, so I would have to replace them all.

Mine is a bit different than the OP's, in that the barrels are actually white instead of black.

It is, without a doubt, quieter than any of my other M's, Are there any measurements or photos anyone would like?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: MissileMike on Mon, 16 August 2010, 11:49:42
Quote from: didjamatic;184076
I would really like to know if the resistance is the same on the keys as a Model M or if it's different.


I measure it at 65g
My Customizer 104 measures 70g
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: MissileMike on Mon, 16 August 2010, 14:34:40
4 images attached, notice the funky retractable legs.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 16 August 2010, 14:39:00
I would love to know the story behind these.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: MissileMike on Mon, 16 August 2010, 14:44:00
You can also open them up with a regular Philips head screwdriver.

I popped off the right alt key, and the spring went flying into the air, and now I can't find it :( (Was looking to see if they followed through on their patent)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 16 August 2010, 14:47:00
Is there a better shot of the label somewhere?
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: MissileMike on Mon, 16 August 2010, 14:54:26
Quote from: ch_123;213178
Is there a better shot of the label somewhere?


Here you go, attached.

Btw there is no insert in the springs- it's normal buckling spring.  But definitely quieter.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 16 August 2010, 14:59:48
Here's a cheap one. (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-AT-T-Keyboard-Serial-Port-Style-Working-305-/150477818321?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: MissileMike on Mon, 16 August 2010, 15:00:20
That ebay one is a serial connector.  The one I have is PS2 and works fine in a PC.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 16 August 2010, 15:08:29
Only four pins of the serial plug is used. Probably AT/PS/2 with a different connector for vendor lock-in.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 16 August 2010, 15:43:07
Quote from: ch_123;213185
Here's a cheap one. (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-AT-T-Keyboard-Serial-Port-Style-Working-305-/150477818321?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0)


The seller doesn't have to use size 72...
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 16 August 2010, 15:55:00
FCC IDs always point at the original manufacturer as opposed to the company that OEM'd it, right?

Apparently these things were made by Alcatel-Lucent.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: pfink on Mon, 16 August 2010, 16:37:55
Quote from: ch_123;213199
FCC IDs always point at the original manufacturer as opposed to the company that OEM'd it, right?

Apparently these things were made by Alcatel-Lucent.


The old AT&T Technologies is now part of Alcatel-Lucent.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: Necroleachate on Mon, 16 August 2010, 16:59:12
Quote from: ripster;213174
Knowing AT&T they probably threatened to sue IBM if they didn't cough up a few thousand Model M internals for them to put in new cases for some ill fated PC.   Still, the custom controller thing is really odd.

AT&T PC6300
Show Image
(http://www.blakespot.com/list/images/pc6300.jpg)


Whoah - is this guy playing Berzerk?   Intruder Alert, Intruder Alert!


Looks like it's Nethack.
Title: Everyone should go to a Catholic College...
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 16 August 2010, 16:59:55
I want one of those computers.