-No need to bottom out
Forgive my ignorance, as I've never tried a Topre, but I don't get that frequent remark. It's a capactitve switch, so it actuates before the rubber dome has fully collapsed and hits the bottom. But the rubber dome collapses anyway, so how does this make a difference? How can you not bottom out on a rubber dome?
66% of a Topre -- I hear truth spoken.
One thing I _DO_ wish is that I could get one of these Key Tronic keyboards in a more narrow configuration, either sans 10-key or something similar.
HHKB is narrow.... DOH!
EDIT ---- OOOH the other keyboard I _REALLY_ like is the Logitech Illuminated. Those perfectstroke scissor switches are sweet.
Kishy: I find the 45gram keys of topres to have a nice snap to them. They actuate a little higher (right after the snap) because of the switching mechanism they use. They actually aren't smooth, they are more snappy than anything..
Best keys in the biz (assuming you have good eyesight and bright lights). Feel like velvet.
That changes a lot then. If there is a snap, regardless of where it is in the travel, then KeyTronics are more similar to Topre than any other rubber dome keyboard (at least that I've tried).
Forgive my ignorance, as I've never tried a Topre, but I don't get that frequent remark. It's a capactitve switch, so it actuates before the rubber dome has fully collapsed and hits the bottom. But the rubber dome collapses anyway, so how does this make a difference? How can you not bottom out on a rubber dome?
I only bottom out during sex, and I don't have sex with my keyboards. You need to learn a lighter touch, man. Women like that.
3600 you say, really? Have you tried the Keytronic Designer p2? I hated it, and I don't even hate all rubber domes. The 3600 must be radically different from it because the Designer is clacky in a really harsh, cheap way, like it's trying to mimic a buckling spring but fails terribly.
I'd be interested in seeing a video of typing on a 3601 to get an aural sense of it. got a cam? =)
3600 you say, really? Have you tried the Keytronic Designer p2? I hated it, and I don't even hate all rubber domes. The 3600 must be radically different from it because the Designer is clacky in a really harsh, cheap way, like it's trying to mimic a buckling spring but fails terribly.
I'd be interested in seeing a video of typing on a 3601 to get an aural sense of it. got a cam? =)
i too would like to see something audio/visual on the 360*.
You've got it!
Typed each of the main home row keys under each finger. There is a little pitch difference between the lighter and heavier keys. Also pressed Enter and Space bar for you.
This is the 3601 with the L shaped enter key. I'm trying to get used to where backspace is, as well as \ -- I think I'd prefer the 3600 which has the standard layout.
Not bad. RealForce sounds better. About 34% better.
I think any halfway-decent rubber dome is going to feel around 66% of a Topre. I think a couple of things make Topre better than the rest:
-No need to bottom out
-A better key structure that directs almost any force directly down, thus making the switches very smooth.
Other than that, I don't really think there is too much to be excited about around Topres other than, maybe, switch life.
Forgive my ignorance, as I've never tried a Topre, but I don't get that frequent remark. It's a capactitve switch, so it actuates before the rubber dome has fully collapsed and hits the bottom. But the rubber dome collapses anyway, so how does this make a difference? How can you not bottom out on a rubber dome?
Kishy: I find the 45gram keys of topres to have a nice snap to them. They actuate a little higher than typical dome boards (right after the snap) because of the switching mechanism they use. They actually aren't smooth, they are more snappy than anything..
Not bad. RealForce sounds better. About 34% better.
i dont even get the need to not bottom out. I'm a key masher. If i dont bottom out my life feels incomplete. To me bottoming out is one of the more satisfying things about typing.
You all see, a Keytronic's almost as good as a Topre, and a Model M kicks the crap out of both.
You're in desperate need of a new act.
You're in desperate need of a new act.
It's not nice to suggest someone's education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACT_%28test%29) may be lacking.
Is this you?...
Because the rubber dome only provides the tactility. It's the depression of the spring underneath that actuates the contact.
Because the rubber dome bottoms out before the spring underneath does.
Forgive my ignorance, as I've never tried a Topre, but I don't get that frequent remark. It's a capactitve switch, so it actuates before the rubber dome has fully collapsed and hits the bottom. But the rubber dome collapses anyway, so how does this make a difference? How can you not bottom out on a rubber dome?
Doesn't that confirm my assumption that the capacitive switch makes no difference, as the rubber dome will collapse anyway?
I can type on a Realforce without bottoming out... not so much on a HHKB pro2, but I think that has to do with where I have positioned it on the desk though.
-Responsible manufacturing (made in a country with respect for human rights, ISO 14001, etc.).
-Capacitive switch technology = no chattering. This kind of confidence might not matter to the average consumer, but if you're working in a live environment where mistakes can be very costly, then this is part of your insurance policy.
Well, there is that unfortunate Whale thing......
Yeah, but he said HUMAN rights...
Well, there is that unfortunate Whale thing......
I can't remember exactly but last time we had somebody stick nickels on that ergo Keytronic the numbers were way off.
Just look at the price difference. Clearly the topre boards are 1500% better. Going by the standard performance increase manifestation of electronic products, let's see what this gets you:
I only have a few different dome keyboards here to compare, but I noticed something different about the Key Tronic domes. Maybe you guys can help me determine whether this is common or not.
The Key Tronic domes have a series of 'lines' that run from the base up to the top of the dome. Sort of like looking at a child drawing of a sun looking at it from the top. There is a series of probably 8-10 of these 'lines' around the full circumference.
The Dell 8115 and Quietkey, as well as a generic HP board all have domes that are smooth. Just pressing the dome on one of these causes it to mush. On the other hand, depressing raw Key Tronic domes there is a definite 'pop' to them as they collapse and return. Do other brand domes have these 'ridges' or lines on the domes?
i wish someone would mail me a free keytronic.
Are you kidding? It's the single most common keyboard in every goodwill/salvationarmy/thrift store in America.
Go to the nearest thrift store and try them out in person.
If you're in NYC, you are within walking distance of at least 10Million Keytronics.
Refer to this chart, and compare my numbers.
Key Tronic Ergo Weights (http://www.keytronic.com/home/products/Ergo%20Technology%20graphic.htm)
Did a little test - my numbers are in amount of nickels stacked on the key to actuate.
CTRL = 20 nickels = 100g
ALT = 20 nickels = 100g
Enter = 17 nickels = 85g
G = 14 nickels = 70g
C = 14 nickels = 70g
Z = 13 nickels = 65g
N = 13 nickels = 65g
A = 12 nickels = 60g
Q = 12 nickels = 60g
] = 11 nickels = 55g
" = 11 nickels = 55g
Goin back up a bit, but what are you people talking about? Normal, common rubber domes are the ones that lack tactility and just slide down relatively uninterrupted and mushy. "Jumpiness" as someone called it earlier is rare among rubber domes and is what I described about the KeyTronic as being desirable.
besides, i dont yet know which keytronics are the "good" keytronics.
Its unique center-bearing switch technology offers both a superior user interface and enhanced product reliability.
if you do try one, I recommend the 6101 or one of its variations. It apparently has some kind of "center bearing" switch technology that the lower numbered models do not. I have no idea if it's good, but I havent seen anyone mention using one or posting pics/vids. Do it for science. like $20 shipped on ebay I think.
I'd love to hear what you think. I have one and find it to be "pleasant". But, what pleasant means I have no idea (subjective). Some of you guys are real typists where as I reside at the other end of the spectrum. I have no knowledge to give a useful review.
I only have a few different dome keyboards here to compare, but I noticed something different about the Key Tronic domes. Maybe you guys can help me determine whether this is common or not.
The Key Tronic domes have a series of 'lines' that run from the base up to the top of the dome. Sort of like looking at a child drawing of a sun looking at it from the top. There is a series of probably 8-10 of these 'lines' around the full circumference.
The Dell 8115 and Quietkey, as well as a generic HP board I have here, all have domes that are smooth. Just pressing the dome on one of these causes it to mush. On the other hand, depressing raw Key Tronic domes there is a definite 'pop' to them as they collapse and return. Do other brand domes have these 'ridges' or lines on the domes?
The cherry black is one of the very, very few mechanisms that display essentially no tactility in its range of motion.
Thanks for the pic, RD. I imagine the ribs stiffen the domes a bit.
To be honest it is the only thing on the keyboard that keytronic spent any money on. The rest of the keyboard is pretty much cheap junk. Once you type on a Topre board you will not go back to or even want to type on a keytronic board. If keytronic would spend a little money and increase the quality of the rest of the board it would not be all that bad for someone that does not mind banging on their board. I personally prefer the lighter touch of the Topre's or Brown cherry boards.
This one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twuPDqWihN0&feature=related) is the das I, which i believe may be the same as the keytronic 3600. The guy describes it as "clicky, like a typewriter".
this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQATBIk0l60#t=41), the guy thinks he found an ibm or something, but he turns it over and the label says keytronic, and is extraordinarily clicky, if its the 3600.
Same opinion. I have the Das1 (oem Key Tronic), Its good but the high end feeling comes only with a Topre board (price is pain in the ass).
your finger deserve the best
This one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twuPDqWihN0&feature=related) is the das I, which i believe may be the same as the keytronic 3600. The guy describes it as "clicky, like a typewriter".
Nope, that's actually a Cherry G80 based Das II with blues.
Topre sliders - see how they "Lock" in the grooves to prevent wiggling.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10163&stc=1&d=1274372829)
What are the sliders like on a Keytronic? I've found the quality of the rubber dome sliders makes a HUGE difference in feel.
Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3138&stc=1&d=1247336626)
Anyways all those gaps and spaces makes for a key that rattles around a bunch
mine must have been $2.50. And it's still remarkably nice to type on.
Like the Model M - longer channels and ridges.And yet they wiggle as well, still making for some interesting typing.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9792&stc=1&d=1273299008)
Gotta keep the spermies happy. That's the only thing I don't mind that rattles. Or more precisely, "thunks".
Man, that's high end. Got to take some pics of my Keytronic soon. Then you'll know what's cheap. If yours was $15, mine must have been $2.50. And it's still remarkably nice to type on.
Looks at first glance better than it is. The slider tabs (the four points sticking out from the circle) are very shallow.
Her name is xxx - email is xxx
Unless she was terribly rude, you should edit the email address out. The name probaly too.
all this talk about the value of 'tightness' on the keystroke...
here's something crazy, you ready? I like key rattle. There, i've said it. its true though. The topre was so smooth that i honestly found it boring. 1.5 years ago, when i reviewed my matias tactile pro 2 (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5294), i mentioned how much the keys rattle, and how fun i thought that was (someone else at the time mentioned they liked it too). 1 year ago when i reviewed the tvs I also mentioned that i liked its key rattle. so i'm not making this up ;-) I really do. Chalk it up to 'to each their own' i guess :)
So the 'tightness' argument for spending an extra $280 doesnt really work with me, anyway. I know topres are top notch quality, not disputing that. Just saying. 'quiet' and even 'smooth' isnt 'automatically' a selling point. Different strokes.
TO me, a topre is like an Acura. You cant lose with it, if you dont mind paying for it. But it'll be so reliable and unassuming that it'll bring tears of boredom to your eyes. ;)
thats what i say. My 7k honda civic 4 speed was one of the most fun cars I've ever driven.
She told me she'd be happy to answer anything else she could. Anything else we should ask?
Sent a couple of questions to Key Tronic yesterday. Here is the contents/response...
Q: What is the difference between the E61xx and E36xx series? Is there a real difference internally? ( I see that 00 means IBM layout and the 01 means the L-shaped Enter key layout.)
A: The differences between the E061XX and E036XX series are:
size: the E061XX is smaller by an inch in both side to side and top to bottom. The difference is the case size, not the keys
feel: the E061XX product does use a different switch and will feel slightly different from the E036XX products.
switch life: the E061XX is rated to 20 million, whereas the E036XX is rated to 30 million lifecycles
warranty: model number dependent
Q: Which keyboards are your 'Lifetime' series keyboards that have the full warranty?
A: We have a series of keyboards that are in the Lifetime Series, which carry a ltd lifetime warranty and we also 2 other keyboards that have ltd lifetime warranties. Model numbers are CLASSIC-XX, DESIGNER-P2, TRACKBALL-XX, E03601P1 and E03601P2
I told them about the discussion we were having, and she thanked me for the link to the forum I sent her.
She told me she'd be happy to answer anything else she could. Anything else we should ask?
Did you ever try a SIIG Mini touch?
I hate going into the grocery store wearing jeans. The managers harass me, because they think I'm trying to steal a summer sausage and a couple of grapefruits.
I'm plunging.
--6000 is virtually impossible to find anywhere even on ebay. So looks like if i'm going to try this, i'll have to get 3600 series.
--3600 series available everywhere, even brand new only $25, usb model. Looks like thats the one i'm getting.
I'll ram a camera up its butt soon as I get it.
Keytronic 6101 (http://cgi.ebay.com/E06101P1-Keyboard-PS-2-6101-WIN95-Keytronic-Inc-/150438928088?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item2306dbded8#ht_2211wt_1056)
there's one. there were more the other day when I checked, I think. Looked at keytronic site and I only saw it in a "01" version with the small backspace. They appear to even sell them from their site for $15.50 and have a USB version in black. (http://keytronic.com/home/shop/shop.asp?h_ck=TCVKZ6) (link to their shop. it's listed towards the bottom-ish)
Also it looks like Newegg even carries them (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823131072).
ahhh... keytronic.
Been using my LT Designer now for about ~13 years, I fell in love with the original membrane design where they were all of equal (heavy) weight. Basically they are all weighted to the heaviest weight there is on the ergo membranes. Due to travel, lanparties, abuse, etc I had to replace the board several times, but after discovering all the new boards were softer ergonomic membranes (and also manufactured in a different country, with cheaper keys, etc) I've been having to juggle the old membrane into newer boards.
Sadly the original membrane is finally starting to wear out now after being through it's 3rd or 4th chassis. Really not sure where to go from here. Every other keyboard I've ever used feels too soft now. I feel lost. :(
ahhh... keytronic.
Been using my LT Designer now for about ~13 years, I fell in love with the original membrane design where they were all of equal (heavy) weight. Basically they are all weighted to the heaviest weight there is on the ergo membranes. Due to travel, lanparties, abuse, etc I had to replace the board several times, but after discovering all the new boards were softer ergonomic membranes (and also manufactured in a different country, with cheaper keys, etc) I've been having to juggle the old membrane into newer boards.
Sadly the original membrane is finally starting to wear out now after being through it's 3rd or 4th chassis. Really not sure where to go from here. Every other keyboard I've ever used feels too soft now. I feel lost. :(
Get yourself a Model M... Seriously, if you want a stiff keyboard that's the way to go.
well gang, i'm about to pull trigger on the 3600.
ah-ha. that one looks like it has normal keys (unless they used the wrong pic? I thought the *01 meant small backspace and L-enter key).
Well, at post #134 somebody should buy it. We've never had this much discussion over a $20 keyboard.
It seems like every time Keytronic is brought up, it is intellectually torn down by people who haven't used it and own much more expensive keyboards (google: cognitive dissonance).
(blues make clicks, but the only tactile feeling is when you bottom out)
@Mental Hobbit: We are in disagreement on that last point. I have cherry blues and keytronic P2 running in parallel (on different levels for standing and sitting at the computer), and I can absolutely tell you that it is not obvious that they aren't "comparable in any way." They are quite comparable, in fact, to the point where I'm not sure if your post was sarcasm -- and then I realize you probably haven't tried a keytronic.
I'm pretty serious about this -- google "cognitive dissonance." If you spend so much on a keyboard, it's hard to admit that it isn't worth it. I'm not saying that premium keyboards aren't worth a premium, but I am saying they're not worth $250 when compared to a $25 keytronic for the vast majority of users.
They are quite comparable, in fact, to the point where I'm not sure if your post was sarcasm -- and then I realize you probably haven't tried a keytronic.
haha! You're back to the HHKB. Told you to not sell it.
Keep your GF too. Remember when asked, "Do you think that there is only ONE person in the world you are meant to be with?" the correct answer is "Yes!". Not "Well.....statistically speaking.....".
This is the main one AFAIK -
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823131040
Judging by the incredible list of expensive keyboards in his signature, he might be biased.
...unfortunately all of our products have the "baseball cap" style CAPS LOCK keys.
They use different nickels at Keytronics.
Stay-at-home dad my ass.
@ripster: Please link to a source that says 35g is better than 55g for pinkies.
That was easy.Show Image(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2760/4468068807_f6e6bbe8dd.jpg)
Emacs pinky.
Common Unix problem.
I imagine that's why they all wear beards out of shame.
I'm not saying that premium keyboards aren't worth a premium, but I am saying they're not worth $250 when compared to a $25 keytronic for the vast majority of users.
I appear to have Emacs penis.
No that's Eunich's penis.
Your $3 penis must have come from a better batch than mine. I had to start using vi a few years ago.
No that's Eunich's penis.
I'm pretty serious about this -- google "cognitive dissonance."
...
I'm not saying that premium keyboards aren't worth a premium, but I am saying they're not worth $250 when compared to a $25 keytronic for the vast majority of users.
No that's Eunich's penis.
@Rajagra: Cognitive dissonance does work both ways, but you misunderstand the entire premise of cognitive dissonance (and irony, ironically).
Not my pinky BTW.
I am beginning to think there is some epic trollage going on here.
Ok. How's this for a comparison?
A Keytronic 3601...keys bottom out - cost $3.
A Deck Legend "Toxic"...keys bottom out - cost $178 (shipped)
They bottom out with me because I'm not used to them or any serious keys yet(and they are linear).
That extra $175 gets me green backlighting that matches my green fans and Laser LED on my case.
The extra quality is apparent. For the average person that might be a "too large" of a difference.
I can see where for you serious typists, who use the tactile-feel method, that the difference
could be substantial. I guess I'm right in the middle of this because I don't yet have the experience
to make a claim one way or the other. I like them both!
I'm thinking about trying this next...
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87meb
In the end I generally ignore everybody else's opinion and just go on the facts.
Did you say something?
Seriously though, advertising an Ergo board with numbers WAY off isn't cool. I don't believe it's a tolerances or age issue. It's generally called FALSE ADVERTISING.
Keyboard Manufacturer Specs
Reality Bites!
The goal is to type accurately at a rapid pace. How you get there depends on the individual's style.
35g vs 60g is quite a bit. Should be quite easy to feel the difference.
In the end I generally ignore everybody else's opinion and just go on the facts.
All methods of measuring key activation force would give the same results. Elementary math. Monotonic function until the key is recognized.
Keytronics is definitely LYING THROUGH THEIR TEETH.
I also find the Zen Theory of Keyboards to be laughable.
You're not listening.
Activation point is at or after the tactile point on all switches (except linears and even there as long as you pull up Notepad while doing the test it's pretty easy to measure).
[nickels] measures one single thing (initial resistance or the tactile 'notch') in the switch dynamics.... I'd take it for what it is - one measure of one aspect of the switch.
the "top-of-stroke" weight really only measures initial resistance. But some switches give way to near-zero resistance after the initial resistance; others feel full of friction all the way down. These will feel very different in terms of resistance while typing, even if both measure at 60g at top of stroke.
You have to push through the initial resistance to get the switch to activate. Therefore, ripster's ripOmeter is valid. You can't have the switches come to a rest after this point, so you still have to use a certain amount of force to push the switch down. Who cares where the 60g. point is? Whether it's 60g. on a Cherry black or 60g. on a rubber dome, you still have to use the same amount of force on the switch at some point on the stroke.
Technically we're both kinda right - it's the cumulative area underneath the force curve that determines the WORK (FxD) of the entire switch stroke. Activation force is just one part of that (although a damn fine proxy in my opinion).
"Work" would be an interesting study. I would like to take switches with similar resistances (like 45 g. Topres and Cherry browns) and see what the difference in work would be. My completely unscientific observation would be that I would do less work on the Cherry browns, because of the springiness in the upstroke despite the downstrokes being fairly similar resistance-wise.
you mean "work" as in physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics))? that would be interesting, actually.
All this over a Keytronic...
So the question is, who is blanket bombing us with dodgy info? Although the ripometer test is based on static force, I'm sure we can agree that the force that allows the switch to rise back above the actuation point should be lower than the manufacturer's claimed actuation force. If it is higher, then the manufacturer's claim must be inaccurate.
"Blanket bombing"? I just think the Keytronics Marketing Manager thought it made for a pretty chart. After the ABS M1, Logitech M15, Das Original, Clicky Ebay Specials you guys still trust the Marketing departments to "Do The Right Thing"?
I'm such a cynic.
Then again, we're all biased =P
I am just jealous of this marvelous troll thread and want some of that action.
E036xx series
E036xx series has an MSRP of $28.50
Can anyone confirm if these are still done the same way as the mid-90s versions?
If they are, then I know what they feel like and can comment...if not, then I don't.
Wellington, take care if taking these apart! No screws, and lots of pry tabs that like to break! I know I broke a few...
Yup, sounds the same then...good enough for me.
Definitely a decent rubber dome. Arguably still not a good keyboard, just good for its type...
Ah yes, taking a page out of Welly's book - The Critique Sandwich.
Oh dear, we better not bump into each other. Oh wait Harlem. Not as good as the real thing.
I thought we had this discussion before.
July 2009 post. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6447&highlight=E03601)
Nah, I was just too polite back then.
Now we know Keytronics keyboards are NOT really ergonomic (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=187046&postcount=217)and they lie through their teeth. I'd call that On Topic.
Nah, I was just too polite back then.
Now we know Keytronics keyboards are NOT really ergonomic (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=187046&postcount=217)and they lie through their teeth. I'd call that On Topic.
E03601 Disassembled (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=187434)
Thanks :)
It's really not a bad keyboard...I'd hang onto it or use the case for mods myself but I'm low on space and trying to 'thin the herd'.
Based on my experience with a '97 Key Tronic, the feel is highly similar, but I think slightly better on the Unicomp. Those are some pretty snappy domes.
I just checked my keyboard collection and I'm horrified I do not have a Key Tronic anymore. I keep trawling for a single-row enter key Key Tronic board for cheap but there are way more L-shaped Enter key boards out there, sigh.
Best keys in the biz (assuming you have good eyesight and bright lights). Feel like velvet.
That's worth sumpthin.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=9755&stc=1&d=1273182204)
i popped a key on that mitsumi. it appears to have white alps or something. they do not click nearly as loud as cherry blues.
i just cannot take a pic of that thing the condition it is in. it looks like barf.
since keys were mentioned, how does the topre dye sub hold up? i'd think you could blend that in kinda easily. the mitsumi legends and the keytronic seem to be the same process. it does not seem to be pad printing. it wears very good on both of them. i am surprised the topre does not have double shots. i am thinking i'll have to get the white one. even though i can touch i like to see the legends clearly.
the keytronic is probably the best currently made rubber dome imo and a fine keyboard. i just prefer something loud!
I thought the cat's tongue model M keys were the best in the biz... the internation biz machines biz.
i am sure i am wrong about this. keytronic an mitsumi seem to have the same type of legend application as a white/grey topre? dye sub on these? they do not look like pad printed.
Thank you!! I am buying.I can't say for sure it is a LT Designer, just that it looks like one. You might want to google a bit to confirm.
Great deal on most perfect non-mechanical keyboard ever made.
So good, Metadot tried to fool us with it.
Thank you!! I am buying.I have read a few references like the below taken from the Wikipedia DAS Keyboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Keyboard) page. Forgive me if this was already posted. FYI, Here is an old post of mine (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=159869&postcount=4) comparing my LT Designer to an original DAS, :smile:.
Great deal on most perfect non-mechanical keyboard ever made.
So good, Metadot tried to fool us with it.
I have placed the order for the black Key Tronic along with the AT101W I will report my findings.
It says "Key Tronic" and the picture is black and has a NON L-shaped Enter key which means that's what I want.
I'm curious about this refurbished AT101W though. That would be interesting.
$4.99 shipping for both keyboards, too. Not bad. Thanks for the find.
And, thanks, TexasFlood, for the backgrounder. In spite of the hype of having blank keys, the best rubber dome keyboard (without a spring like Topre) would belong to Key Tronic.
But, my opinion is tempered by my preference of this wonderful, generic, rubber-dome Memorex TS-1100. It might be the loose rubber they use, or just the full-size Caps Lock and Enter keys, that make this $6 keyboard so wonderful.
I may have posted this elsewhere already but I can't seem to find it.
I got the Pacific Geek keyboard (and free tee-shirt) but it's not a Key Tronic Designer. It's a regular, black Key Tronic 3600. It's definitely not the model pictured on their web site.
The keyboard is very flimsy, which is weird because the E03600 that Wellington sent me is positively solid and heavy and has the same screw-less construction. Much worse, however, is that the keyboard they sent me has an L-shaped Enter key and tiny Backspace. Even though it turns out not to be a Designer, I would have totally kept it if the layout was normal.
I'm having a hard time identifying the layout with the model numbers, too, because I incorrectly assumed all 3600 boards were the same layout. Pacific Geek seems to be identifying it by the number under the LR mark which differs from the number on the keyboard's label by only a couple of digits.
Pacific Geek kindly emailed a printable return label and will be refunding it in full.
i know many people like to doubt this. however there is usually a reason one item costs $15 and a seemingly identical item costs $250.
The Topre is a rubber dome/capacitive switch,
I don't know if it is correct to say that the spring in the Topre is an electrode.
the switch is more like a contraption to alter the medium/capacitance between them.
Capacitive sensor, is way more correct
You can see it as two capacitor connected in series added in parallel to the fixed condenser represented by the two printed plates, the spring is both the point where one side of the two additional capacitors are connected together, and the two plates theirselves.
To be clearer, think to the spring as two semicircular plates connected by a wire
Yes this is the same as above described from a different POV, less picky but not wrong (other than the word switch).
This was discussed earlier, and I don't really think you came out on top...
I really didn't understand much of that, but how is two plates connected with a wire considered to be a capacitor?
I would say the capacitor plates are the half-circles printed on the PCB
Any dielectric surrounded by two conductive plates is a capacitor, so even the two half circle printed.
BTW if the purpose were to have an initial capacitor,there was no point in doing them semicircular, two I shaped traces were more than enough.
Instead they are semicircular to maximize the surface exposed to the spring (to an half of the spring).
So the main capacitors are two per key connected in series (half circle printed plate, half circle insulator, half spring X2) with a third one connected in parallel (the one you are referring) represented by the two half circle printed and the tiny piece of insulator between them. BTW the contribution of the latter is really minimal.
What I care is if if what I'm saying is true or not.The problem is that it is confusing. Best case scenario, noone actually cares what you say. Worst case scenario, someone think the person you are criticizing is wrong, when they are really correct to begin with.
Not if I manage to convince a couple of people with the only purpose of arguing.
Ok, I see what you, correctly, are saying. semicircle-gap-spring-gap-semicircle = two capacitors in series. I just didn't think of it that way. Any network of capacitors equals some single capacitor = semicircle-whatever-semicircle.
The problem is that it is confusing.
Indeed I already said that your POV was not wrong, call it less analytic, more simplified, but not wrong.
If I speak with my gandmother I use vague terms and I'm fine.
But here, is different, call something whit the correct terms is not mandatory, but is strongly suggested.
A switch is a box with two terminals meant to open and close an electrical circuit and what is on the topre definitely is not.
Its fine to call them capacitive keyboards, its fine to call the whole key a capacitive key, but is wrong to call "capacitive switch" the variable capacitor.
Yes I know I was only lost in your English syntax..
Personally, I don't care for the generalization he has been making regarding US citizens, as I find it offensive.
This is supposed to be a friendly forum, where uses exchange knowledge and advice regarding keyboards and keyboard technology. Emphasis on friendly.
My English is notoriously not good, but tend to get worse when I write doing something else...
Thread necrophilia -
I don't how they age but I kind of agree with the OP - KeyTronic makes darn good rubber domes.
But you're not going to get rich selling them. They're no IBM M or F :-)
They still make most of their 90's keyboards. Even the website looks 90's
https://keyboards.keytronic.com/home/keyboards/keyboards/keyboards.html
Buy one new if you are interested in the pure KeyTronic experience.
I have a Keytronic keyboard and I think the feel of Keytronic is probably similar to a Topre without the responsive feel...