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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: MacSurfy on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:11:33

Title: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: MacSurfy on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:11:33
Welcome to GMK KAT Refined
www.kat-refined.com (http://www.kat-refined.com)


(https://i.imgur.com/1s7QSvS.jpg)
TX66 by TX Keyboard Inc





Pricing

(https://i.imgur.com/HOKHN2m.jpg)







Updates

6/1/2020
Launched IC

06/01/2020 - 08/01/2020
Removed all the old updates to keep the list clean

08/01/2020
Discord — Discord channel added on Mykeyboard.eu server over at https://discord.gg/GyDWwE2

09/01/2020
— General: Site is up and running! www.kat-refined.com
 (http://www.kat-refined.com)

09/09/2020
— Renders: Added another Iron180 render with full WoB
— Renders: Updated all renders with the new legend/icon tweaks.
— General: Improved on a whole bunch of glyphs and their positions.
— General: Tweaked arrow, tail and legend on ISO enter and numpad enter.
— General: Added cap sizes in Kit renders.
— General: Added pricing.






Todo


— Wait for new samples.
— Ready for GB!







The theme? There is none.

Instead of grabbing colors from a random anime character, or taking inspiration from my kids breakfast cereal leftovers this set came from a deeper need that I have felt growing for quite some time.

If you know me, I have always favoured GMK sets before anything else. It’s what I always bought and it was the only type of keyset render commissions I would accept. There’s something about the look of the icons/legends that just sit right with me.

You’ll often hear people say GMK’s keycaps are the most premium out there. Which I tend to agree with. Sound is great and they look great but you will find many typographical/print errors. Not something I would expect on a premium product, but like most of you I am sort of used to them.







So what is it then?

I’ve been curious about the KAT profile ever since it was released. Heard good things about the typing experience and sound but I could just never get past the legends. As with most sculpted profiles the legends are really big, centered and seem less thought out than GMK/Cherry.

That being said, I get that some people love them. And that’s cool, I don’t want to step on designers toes but I am just not into that look at all. I thought that perhaps there are more people like me out there, who are annoyed with GMK icons/legends but can’t find a good alternative. Or people who are willing to try a more sculpted profile but just can’t see themselves using centered legends/icons.

This one is for you.







Renders

(https://i.imgur.com/GLwUA0J.jpg)
Kotai by Stewiedk97

(https://i.imgur.com/qjQd6du.jpg)
TX66 by TX Keyboard Inc

(https://i.imgur.com/rn1hqDF.jpg)
Iron180 by Smith + Rune

(https://i.imgur.com/uJJBveU.jpg)
Iron180 by Smith + Rune

(https://i.imgur.com/nUBGl9J.jpg)
Iron180 by Smith + Rune

(https://i.imgur.com/C5RCZ5V.jpg)
Lodestone by Jae & Flex, FLX x Proto[Typist]

(https://i.imgur.com/d10Jetz.jpg)
Iron165 by Smith + Rune

(https://i.imgur.com/PgDofow.jpg)
Iron165 by Smith + Rune

(https://i.imgur.com/NMhjfAN.jpg)
Candybar by TKC







Kits—BoW

More
(https://i.imgur.com/fTuyBlm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ftdAfRf.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/ks8RljV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qUjroyH.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/42HJJWb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tjta1Gt.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/vZNCUfr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OORAV0s.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/2k1tq0m.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PbjOLgD.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/1m96Zt1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9Oylhdh.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/VDr2veJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pmRjgYZ.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/G17lXMs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hizuB15.jpg)






Kits—WoB

More
(https://i.imgur.com/HV73rQe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/r1dqSjH.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Tc0alqM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ACpkpIs.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/gG7leOa.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rvkM5HU.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/xIm6W8l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FbkTKu1.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/xL86htk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UEFrbCr.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/SvDgyRs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/n4zWht5.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/gtzQzPs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Xv2i6hv.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/gNHhTp4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mi0wsnk.jpg)






Colors


(https://i.imgur.com/nQj9uQZ.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/i2mHqBn.jpg)

Alphas and sublegends (Numrow numbers, Code and @ for instance) bleed a little bit too much for my liking. They have been adjusted and will receive the updated versions in the next batch. ETA uknown. Arrows came out looking really sharp (not talking about the rounded corners), a big improvement from GMK as you can see.

The white is pretty close to WS1 which I am happy with. KAT Milkshake is using the same white. I have ordered samples of another white just to see if I like that one more but for now I would say this is the one we are going with. WS2 is too pale/blue to go with e-white boards so I think that choice is not optimal. Black samples have also been ordered.








Vendors


EU: Mykeyboard.eu
US: TX Keyboards
Canada: Deskhero.ca
Asia: zFrontier
Oceania: Daily Clack
Ukraine\Russia\Belarus: Funkeys
SEA:HEXKeyboards







Credits

Mykeyboard.eu: For jumping on this project with no hesitation and having the best keyboard related store with great service. Europe is lucky to have you!
Emir: For being a day-one supporter and helping me with the kits and innovating the GMK game
Koen: For showing support and being an all around great guy!
Jae: For looking over the kits and being such a great ambassador for the community
Kwerdenker: For taking keyboard photos like it ain't no thing. Also for looking over my kits. Much love!
Konstantin: For all the help with the kits in my set, but also others.







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Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:11:55
General tweaks

I am posting some of the more general issues with legends here in a second post so it doesn't clog the initial IC-post with information that you might not care about. But if you do, then feel free to read up on some of the work that went in to this. Please note that I have not spent a great deal of time setting up my photos so there will be lens distortion, rotation and other issues. It's good enough to make my point though. Some issues with GMK legends will vary from set to set also.






The font

(https://i.imgur.com/IHTxeOH.jpg)

Let’s start with the font. Since KAT is using dyesub we have a lot more freedom when looking for a replacement font. Instead of the rounded font that is harder to read, has less features and does not scale well - I want to go with something that is clear and legible at any size, has clear and distinguished characteristics yet seeming somewhat neutral in the overall appearance.

Crossbar’s should be thick enough to support small sizes. Ascenders/descender height is of importance too while I want a terminal on the T’s unlike GMK/Cherry for legibility reasons. Clarity across sizes is basically what I am looking for.







Gutters

(https://i.imgur.com/mDXVRns.jpg)

One of my biggest pet peeves with GMK legends is how size and letter spacing does not really support a 1U cap. To battle this they’ve chosen to decrease the gutters drastically which makes it look very inconsistent. Especially noticeable when placed on bottom row next to a wider modifier key that uses the regular gutter space.





More


Kerning & spacing

(https://i.imgur.com/g5xfkMO.jpg)

Kerning and letter spacing throughout all the legends goes from OK to horrible.
And sometimes both since the same legends can look different depending on the key.

P g Dn or Pg   Dn .. which one is it?







Height alignment

(https://i.imgur.com/TjW7kTO.jpg)

Punctuations, symbols and other characters. Should they use a single size/stroke throughout or be independently scaled?

I think the answer is somewhere in between. The relation between symbols on different keys is less important than making the symbols understandable and clear. But one has to take the other symbols in to account to make the visual appearance somewhat balanced and correct when seeing them all at the same time. So in other words, the exclamation mark should not be tiny compared to the tilde etc.

Where I think you have less freedom is where in the single cap grid you place the symbol. The backtick symbol for instance which you can see under tilde should never be placed on the baseline. It will look too much like a comma. There are many cases like this …

* I edited the visual so you can easily see baseline/cap height.







U feeling down Tab?

(https://i.imgur.com/1NL0NPn.jpg)

I hope nobody has missed how misaligned the TAB icon is on the Tab 1.5U key, the most common Tab cap. For some reason it seems to be aligned correctly on the other keys. I never quite understood why the numpad + symbol is so massive either, so I took the liberty of fixing it.







Enter

(https://i.imgur.com/YL4fxcT.jpg)

The enter keys are pretty interesting. I’ve tried to find reasons for the way they look but I have come up short.

If we start with ISO Enter the sublegend is above the icon which is inconsistent by itself but it also gives it a strange balance. The weight is at the bottom where the arrow and horizontal line is, and therefore it would work better to use the legend below the arrow.

The alignment with text and arrow is on the left, which is consistent with everything else that has a legend but the ISO enter key is unlike any other key so in this case I would like to not be consistent for the sake of being consistent. Balance feels really off with that odd ISO enter shape and the dead space around it. But yeah, preferences …







Stroke weights

(https://i.imgur.com/CfWblN1.jpg)

Stroke sizes are varying a lot between the same type of legend which works fine if it is balanced properly. I find that in many cases it is not. And again like earlier the symbols are way too close to the edge for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Abec13 on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:16:55
So now, what kinda white is this? As I've learned from buying many sets, black can be black, but white seems to have many forms.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: FunBox on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:17:58
This is gorgeous, exactly what I needed to make me purchase a set. Any eta?

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: eskimojo on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:18:57
Love the idea - will have a better look at how I feel about the kitting at a later date.

You've always had an eye for detail, so I'm sure this set is in good hands :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Ulliam on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:20:34
I'm in. you had me at the 00's apple reference, but damn dude. Making us all look bad out here.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Capsy on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:21:47
Oh boi. Amazing work macsurfy
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bl4ck on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:23:43
For sure in for both colorways, but would love support for ISO-PT.

Would also love icon bottom-row/esc but, thats set in stone. Love it anyway
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: belgium_waffles on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:27:53
Please consider Daily Clack as OCE vendor!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ackzot on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:28:08
beautiful. definitely would pick up a black and white. a little surprised by the hhkb set. even though kat moqs are different, more kits are still a logistical sorting issue and the hhkb one feels a little superfluous. and i use an hhkb layout at times, but without the stepped caps since I prefer a regular ctrl there.

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Fredington on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:34:54
You're missing 1.75u Control for HHKB
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: L-Ron on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:35:31
Seconding the request for Daily Clack as the OCE vendor. This set looks amazing, would love to get my hands on it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: jorj_mk on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:36:46
do you want to elaborate on why you chose to have an hhkb kit rather than a "tsangan 60%" kit?
at bare minimum, 2 more keys (2x 1.5u ctrl) would give you a 7u bottom row.
1 additional key (2.75u shift) would give you full right shift support.
2 additional keys (2u backspace and 1.5u pipe) would give full backspace support.
potentially, a fulltouch caps lock would round off all "needed" compatibility for a 7u 60% kit.

all in all, that is 6 additional keys which would make the kit much more desirable to a much wider range of people. so, the question stands - any reason you chose to make the kit hhkb only?

just my 2 cents, glwic :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Rafa_n on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:38:53
Dedicated HHKB kit is a dream come true for me lol. I would just change the stepped caps lock to a non stepped control.

I'm 100% buying this.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ubmit on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:41:30
this is looking amazing!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: eniigma on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:43:23
Looks great! Glwic  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Mojo3354 on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:54:59
You had me at the 40s kit with a 1.25u Enter.

In for at least 1 BoW and WoB.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: rewke on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:56:33
I’m in as well! Can’t wait for GB.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: NoPunIn10Did on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:58:08
It appears you are missing kits for Ergodox.  I'd be happy to help you sort those out.

The guide I've written is a good starting point:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105714.0
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: gaynut on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:58:25
i really like this! always preferred gmk style legends

i know you have reasonings for your decisions, but i've got a couple random thoughts about the aesthetics off the top of my head:
1. the gutters look a little too small? i agree gmk gutters are really inconsistent (oblivion git rip) but it looks strange being that close to the edge
2. some of the numrow symbols look really large, like the %
3. im not sold on the font. it looks a little too plain? maybe it's just renders, where everything looks sharp, or i'm just used to the ibm style font when talking about less rounded legends.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Serket on Sun, 31 May 2020, 18:58:26
Literally ressurected this account after years of lurking to say...

About damn time, bravo. Every single time I see a KAT or SA profile I've always pondered the appeal of the go-to font and centred legends.

Thought it was just me. Apparently not.

God speed with the IC and subsequent GB.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Sigil on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:02:41
This looks pretty good, agree with a lot of your points about GMK legend inconsistency. I'd definitely be in for a few kits. The stepped caps lock in the HHKB kit seems like an odd choice though. Home row control is one of HHKB layout's big things, and using a stepped control has always felt super counterintuitive to me.

Also sad about no ergo kits, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: GEIST on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:04:18
After your introduction I was really curious, but in the end I'm pretty disappointed. You obviously did a good job on the refinement, but in the end it just follows the same rules every cherry set is following and apply them to KAT. The same icons, off centered legends and uninspired font.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: edctog on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:10:37
I'm in! This one looks awesome!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: depletedvespene on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:10:59
Quick thoughts:

- R2 \| is missing in the alphas kits (disregarding the HHKB ones); R3 #~ should be in NorDeUK instead.

- R3 1.5U \| is in the mods kits instead of the alphas kits for no apparent reason.

- Is the NorDeUk list of supported national layouts the usual band of five? (Danish, English (UK), German, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish) And... why? This is KAT, so it should be feasible to break this up into, at the very least, NorDe and UK.

- The NorDeUk kits are missing the numpad comma (although I'd put it in the numpad kits). I'll check in detail later, but so far there seem to be no other obvious errors or omissions there.

EDIT: one more:

- The F row kits seem to be the only ones with R5 keys. If keeping with that, they need to add keys like Insert and Delete (for 75% keyboards) and move the R4 End and PgDn there (for 1800 and 1800-like layouts).
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kiwoli on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:20:42
Refined indeed, glad I'm also not the only one who feels the legends on KAT could do with some work.

Would like more information on the White of the BoW set though, will this be ABS or PBT?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: NoPunIn10Did on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:23:04
Refined indeed, glad I'm also not the only one who feels the legends on KAT could do with some work.

Would like more information on the White of the BoW set though, will this be ABS or PBT?

KAT is always PBT.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: LXVRGS on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:31:38
ne purse caps lock avail?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: GraffitiDecos on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:35:59
Yes.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: tominabox1 on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:41:41
Suggest kitting for KAT rather than mimiking GMK kitting, espicially for 40s kits. 40s buyer would still have to buy the whole 60s+ kit to get the mods they need. There's no reason for this with KAT.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Adelscott on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:43:37
Is a french kit doable ? With classic colorway like these you would sell some (not hundreds tho). I think I would buy two full sets, especially if you put the third legend like you did in NorDe kit. This third legend is missing in all KAT sets because of centered legends.
You would make some dudes like me very happy !

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: depletedvespene on Sun, 31 May 2020, 19:54:24
Is a french kit doable ? With classic colorway like these you would sell some (not hundreds tho). I think I would buy two full sets, especially if you put the third legend like you did in NorDe kit. This third legend is missing in all KAT sets because of centered legends.

As long as we're on this, KAT sets so far have avoided tertiary (and cuaternary) legends because "KAT spherical, like SA" and "non centered looks bad on SA", and this is a point that needs to be tested: will corner-aligned legends look proper in KAT keycaps or not? (followed by will the necessarily thinner lines in those glyphs look fine?)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES on Sun, 31 May 2020, 20:00:46
Is there a KAT black keycap in existence now that we can see? How black are we talking?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Adelscott on Sun, 31 May 2020, 20:01:20
.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: KingOfMemes on Sun, 31 May 2020, 20:02:41
Colevrak for WoB and BoW please
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: mysticworks on Sun, 31 May 2020, 20:05:43
I love it! Finally a KAT set with clean legends. Appreciate all the work you're putting into the kerning and such.

One question- will other, future KAT sets be able to use the legends you develop for Refined? I'd really like to see more sets on KAT and I think that these legends would push designers towards KAT as a bigger option.

Also, do agree with the prior posts on the sizing of the gutters- as it is it looks a bit too small to me.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: simpe on Sun, 31 May 2020, 20:23:11
Cool stuff, ill be looking out for this. Only criticism is the shortage of 1u bottom row mods. As a 40% ortho user you would have to go with |ctrl|code|code|alt| as your lefthand mods.  :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: neutralstate on Sun, 31 May 2020, 20:36:00
really hope that future kat sets can also considering using the same fonts etc as well, the font is one the big things that keeps me from getting KAT sets.


thanks this is great work
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: d4vid4f on Sun, 31 May 2020, 21:11:47
Really diggin this set!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MdotMaxson on Sun, 31 May 2020, 21:19:26
Thank you for this. I can’t tell if I knew I knew the legends on GMK were one if not my fav thing about GMK sets but now it’s clear at least. And that’s the main reason why I can’t use like SA is the childish font. Man I love this. Thank you. I hope designers use these new legends for Kat moving forward. Because also the other thing you left out is KAT is PBT. I’m paranoid about even using my GMK sets because I’m
Not about that shine. Not only does it look hideous. It feels worse than covid 19 coughed into your throat.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MadaMada21 on Sun, 31 May 2020, 21:23:58
Another BoW & WoB Set, here we go again~

I'm an absolute sucker for these haha. Count me in!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: NathanAlphaMan on Sun, 31 May 2020, 21:35:00
The easiest must buy I've ever seen. No notes.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: SleepIsAllINeed on Sun, 31 May 2020, 21:45:06
Looking forward to this  :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Banzai on Sun, 31 May 2020, 21:53:04
I'm in for the BoW set. No questions asked.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: CaptainVinceO2 on Sun, 31 May 2020, 22:07:48
Looks great! Super clean and love the aesthetic, interested in proxying it. Pming you in a bit :)))
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: krzank on Sun, 31 May 2020, 22:29:18
Definitely WoB. Really refined.
Any chance of adding french and/or russian (with R2 Tilde/Ё) support?
What is missing:
-- Text mods WoB: R2/1.75U "Control" for HHKB please (also Text/Icon, and probably BoW too).
-- ALL mods: R4/1U Backspace please.




Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 31 May 2020, 22:33:51
why is it labeled in reverse R1-4 bottom to top instead of top to bottom?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: NoPunIn10Did on Sun, 31 May 2020, 22:35:44
why is it labeled in reverse R1-4 bottom to top instead of top to bottom?
KAT's manufacturer numbers it that way.  You'll also see this numbering with many OEM manufacturers.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 31 May 2020, 22:44:57
why is it labeled in reverse R1-4 bottom to top instead of top to bottom?
KAT's manufacturer numbers it that way.  You'll also see this numbering with many OEM manufacturers.

Thanks.
Will just repeat the "1.75u Control for HHKB please."
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Surface on Sun, 31 May 2020, 23:01:39
interested! WoB alphas and BoW mods would be my preferred look
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Koniotaur on Sun, 31 May 2020, 23:03:06
It's just a little bit pity that it's not regular KAT font as it will create inconsistency in font if someone would want to mix it with other KAT sets, GLWGB
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: psxndc on Sun, 31 May 2020, 23:17:32
Colevrak for WoB and BoW please
My man. +1 for colevrak+ in both WoB and BoW.

Dvorcol's excellent reference:
https://imgur.com/gallery/4Sy4ph1
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: vsrnth on Sun, 31 May 2020, 23:26:30
Colevrak for WoB and BoW please
My man. +1 for colevrak+ in both WoB and BoW.

Dvorcol's excellent reference:
https://imgur.com/gallery/4Sy4ph1
+1 for colevrak support

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Joaquox on Mon, 01 June 2020, 00:29:08
Any plans for a ortho kit? Needs enough buttons for a Preonic at least.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Emir on Mon, 01 June 2020, 00:37:54
Getting me to but anything that isn't gmk is no small feat! Good work 🙏
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: valniro on Mon, 01 June 2020, 01:20:38
Is a french kit doable ? With classic colorway like these you would sell some (not hundreds tho). I think I would buy two full sets, especially if you put the third legend like you did in NorDe kit. This third legend is missing in all KAT sets because of centered legends.
You would make some dudes like me very happy !
I second this, also North and South kits would make a lot of sense for this kind of set. Please think about it!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Morbus on Mon, 01 June 2020, 01:27:06
My man
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Automata-killa on Mon, 01 June 2020, 01:40:30
Would be an instant buy if the HHKB kit used control not a stepped capslock. Having to buy an extra mods kit for a single key isn’t something I’d personally do.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: GaNeBaL on Mon, 01 June 2020, 01:43:20
You sonuva *****, I'm in.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: QRomo on Mon, 01 June 2020, 01:49:20
Made an account here just to comment on this.

Would love it if you could find a Canadian vendor for the GB (maybe deskhero.ca?). Either way I'm in for at least one set, and more likely one each of WoB and BoW.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: maoam on Mon, 01 June 2020, 01:56:53
Love this! I also second others about a non-stepped HHKB capslock.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: SmilingPudding on Mon, 01 June 2020, 02:24:54
Cannot have enough BoW set. Plus love the attention to details.

I especially like the left aligned icon mods. Definitely in!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: modern on Mon, 01 June 2020, 02:25:10
yep, beauty
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: octol on Mon, 01 June 2020, 02:30:43
Looks amazing!

What's missing for me to be able to use on my ortho boards are:
- 1u R2 enter
- another 1u R1 shift for shift on both sides

I will probably get 2x the "Extra mods" kit to have symmetric alt/super/ctrl
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Mon, 01 June 2020, 02:38:18
Hi, I just want to repeat:

please add R2 1.75u Control in mod kit.
please replace stepped Casplock in HHKB kit with R2 1.75u Control.

do you think a separate spacebar kit is possible?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: hottrout on Mon, 01 June 2020, 02:46:02
There are further refinements to go but as a set goes both WoB and BoW look impressive.  I think that such a good set needs to have everyone's additional key's added and this would make it a must have standard set for everyone.  If you are going this far, then take the time to do everything and it will be around for many years and sell many more times.  Go big baby.  I am in for both sets for sure.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Mon, 01 June 2020, 02:48:19
is it possible for a vertical function keys kit?  :D

[attachimg=1]
(image from ePBT SimpleJA)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Scucka on Mon, 01 June 2020, 03:16:33
Good job! Very nice set
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: psxndc on Mon, 01 June 2020, 03:22:59
Are you going to do any novelties? Looking at the 40s kit, the only option for the left side R2 in a 1u size is Tab or Esc. Control would be a nice third option, but I generally prefer to have a novelty there so it can be anything, e.g., Ctrl, Caps, bkspc for Colemak users, etc.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: senryo on Mon, 01 June 2020, 03:32:17
Hot!

DMed on Discord for inquiry!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Vireca on Mon, 01 June 2020, 03:35:44
I like it, but there some things it should be changed imo

F row not on mods kits... I dont get the point. Even if I dont use them I prefer to have a full base kit and KAT prices are not that important to separate them. This way you will save few dollars per kit, not worth it imo

The 40s kit should have more mirror spacebars to cover split keyboards. At least another 2u and x2 1.5u. Maybe you want to separate then in 40s and ortho kit, so people take whatever they want

About other languages or layouts I dont care because I dont use them, but KAT its cool enough to add them to the GB without increasing much the prices
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: hottrout on Mon, 01 June 2020, 03:55:37
I have to agree that base sets in general should be more encompassing. ISO, Function and Numpad should always be in base in my opinion.  I don't know about the rest of you guys but I normally buy all parts of any set in case I decide to put it on a different board and maybe one that has not even been designed yet.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Olivierko on Mon, 01 June 2020, 04:07:01
Love these sets.

My only preference would be a non stepped caps lock within the HHKB set.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: stickerliu on Mon, 01 June 2020, 04:52:11
nice design!
hope that bow can cheaper than wob!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: lush_bunny on Mon, 01 June 2020, 05:20:53
Yes
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: bobdenard on Mon, 01 June 2020, 05:26:54
Beautiful work on the legends, looks way classier than usual KAT sets!

Also, +1 for French kit and Ergo kit
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: bobaboy on Mon, 01 June 2020, 06:03:14
The font legends look amazing, but is there any chance to have them centered? I think that would be a fresh look that's better than the current state of both GMK and KAT legends.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 01 June 2020, 06:04:24
Thank you all for your feedback and comments. I'm having a computer free day today but I will get back on kit suggestions etc later, but I can already say now that regular caps lock will be added to the HHKB kit.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Slayer77 on Mon, 01 June 2020, 06:47:06
Love this! I also second others about a non-stepped HHKB capslock.
It's in the to do list! Hyped for this, hhkb kit is a godsend

Sent from my GM1911 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Slayer77 on Mon, 01 June 2020, 06:48:38
Thank you all for your feedback and comments. I'm having a computer free day today but I will get back on kit suggestions etc later, but I can already say now that regular caps lock will be added to the HHKB kit.
Nice. In for both hhkb sets!

Sent from my GM1911 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: stoffelduss on Mon, 01 June 2020, 06:55:45
Wanna consider Colevrak+ support? A strong 13 out of 613 Alphas orders for KAT Arctic came with Colevrak+ orders, for example :P
Okay I know the numbers are not strong, but a few of us do exist and would appreciate it!

/edit: Everyone's talking about 1.75u Control, but I'd like to see a 1u Ctrl in the HHKB set. When using CapsLock, you still want a Ctrl key, and I personally place it on the 1u key on the right of the bottom row.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 01 June 2020, 07:17:00
HHKB kits updated (I couldn't resist)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Slayer77 on Mon, 01 June 2020, 07:18:42
HHKB kits updated (I couldn't resist)
Nice.

Sent from my GM1911 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 01 June 2020, 07:24:22
So now, what kinda white is this? As I've learned from buying many sets, black can be black, but white seems to have many forms.

I learned the hard way from other GB's that black can very different from what I consider black too. I will be checking out color samples before I decide on both but I do want to aim for a neutral black/white as far as possible. It's a bit hard to say what KAT Alpha looks like apart from the photos, but it goes from something even colder than WS2 to a white that looks far too warm. So definitely need to see samples IRL.

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: architones on Mon, 01 June 2020, 07:40:57
Are there any black KAT keycaps out in the wild right now? I am curious to see how the dyesub will look for WoB. Otherwise, count me interested in this set.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 01 June 2020, 07:42:54
1. the gutters look a little too small? i agree gmk gutters are really inconsistent (oblivion git rip) but it looks strange being that close to the edge
2. some of the numrow symbols look really large, like the %
3. im not sold on the font. it looks a little too plain? maybe it's just renders, where everything looks sharp, or i'm just used to the ibm style font when talking about less rounded legends.

Thank you for your feedback!

1. I believe they are quite sufficient but I do want to make tests to make sure that we're good.
2. Agreed. It will be updated
3. Plain is OK in this case imho. Sharp & clear characteristics while being somewhat close to the Cherry font was what I was going for rather than something unique looking.


After your introduction I was really curious, but in the end I'm pretty disappointed. You obviously did a good job on the refinement, but in the end it just follows the same rules every cherry set is following and apply them to KAT. The same icons, off centered legends and uninspired font.

Sorry you didn't like it but I think you might have missed the point with this set when you read the intro  :)


a little surprised by the hhkb set. even though kat moqs are different, more kits are still a logistical sorting issue and the hhkb one feels a little superfluous. and i use an hhkb layout at times, but without the stepped caps since I prefer a regular ctrl there.

I haven't seen complete layouts offered before (maybe they exist?) so I decided to include one that is popular and has the least amount of variations. We will see how many kits I will offer in the end. I don't want to end up with too many.


This is gorgeous, exactly what I needed to make me purchase a set. Any eta?

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Aiming for August. But it depends on vendors and their availability too.


You're missing 1.75u Control for HHKB

Yes I am aware  :). I wanted to offer a full layout as a bit of an experiment if it would work or not. I was expecting people to have opinions on it and want extra keys in there, but then the whole idea of it is sort of gone if people have to pay for keys they don't need. I have already added a regular Caps Locks so we're already stretching it. But I will take your suggestion in to account.


ne purse caps lock avail?

That's a hard no unfortunately  ;D


It appears you are missing kits for Ergodox.  I'd be happy to help you sort those out.

The guide I've written is a good starting point:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105714.0
Thank you for reaching out. I will consider it.



do you want to elaborate on why you chose to have an hhkb kit rather than a "tsangan 60%" kit?
at bare minimum, 2 more keys (2x 1.5u ctrl) would give you a 7u bottom row.

Thank you for your suggestion! I have answered the same question above. But I might add Tsangan 60%, replace the HHKB one or take them both out to keep the kit count low. It depends a bit on feedback the coming weeks.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Khers on Mon, 01 June 2020, 07:46:00
Looks very good! Great work, surfy!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bl4ck on Mon, 01 June 2020, 07:53:13
May I ask the reason for no full icon mods?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Mekberg on Mon, 01 June 2020, 09:13:18
I have to agree that base sets in general should be more encompassing. ISO, Function and Numpad should always be in base in my opinion.  I don't know about the rest of you guys but I normally buy all parts of any set in case I decide to put it on a different board and maybe one that has not even been designed yet.

If it was a GMK set, I'd agree, but as I understand it it is much easier to have multiple kits with KAT manufacturers. It makes sense to keep the base being roughly 60/65% focused, and then add the numpad and F-row as separate kits. That way it saves money for those who know they won't ever put it on a fullsize (like me), and those who want all the keys can still get the extra kits without it being more expensive than it would have been anyway. I might get the F-row kit regardless so I can use it on a TKL, but as for numpad, I will never have a fullsize keyboard so having to pay for all those keys I never use feels... wasteful.

That's the thing: if they're included in the base kit, I can't opt out, but regardless of whether they're base or extra, you can always opt in.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: sartarelli on Mon, 01 June 2020, 09:21:11
This looks like the first KAT keycaps GB I'll join, especially if the white will be closer to WS2 than WS1 from GMK.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: mom on Mon, 01 June 2020, 09:34:02
Would it be possible to have a small accent kit? Something like mr sleeves on Minimal. Would be very nice!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Slayer77 on Mon, 01 June 2020, 09:54:48
This looks like the first KAT keycaps GB I'll join, especially if the white will be closer to WS2 than WS1 from GMK.
Personally prefer WS1. WS2 is for people who can't decide between CP or WS1

Sent from my GM1911 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kidviddy on Mon, 01 June 2020, 09:58:18
There are further refinements to go but as a set goes both WoB and BoW look impressive.  I think that such a good set needs to have everyone's additional key's added and this would make it a must have standard set for everyone.  If you are going this far, then take the time to do everything and it will be around for many years and sell many more times.  Go big baby.  I am in for both sets for sure.

To wit, please consider adding the following keys (from the first image, "JIS-alphas-kit.png", below) to your International Kit, providing support for JIS-layout alphas.

I've also attached both Japanese- and English-language version of the extra JIS mods--personally I think the English version works better with this kit but they're both there for your consideration.

Please note that the question of JIS-layout alphas and extra JIS mods can be considered separately; you may choose to add the alphas and not the mods, or vice versa, and both would be reasonable decisions.  That said, I would prioritise the alphas over the mods, personally.  And if you want to make this a truly universal set with full JIS support, both would be best (you only need to pick one of English-language mods and Japanese-language mods though).

I know this is a big ask, but for a set like this which stands a chance to be a universal baseline, it would be really great to see JIS support in there.  Please let me know if you have any questions!

EDIT: Clarifying which keys I meant in the first sentence
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: rpiguy9907 on Mon, 01 June 2020, 10:09:21
Reverse dye sub black rarely looks black. Part of me wishes the WoB were double-shot ABS.

However, the BoW should rock and will definitely get a set!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: gecruz on Mon, 01 June 2020, 10:16:48
Great job! Any chance of adding a "Delete" on the F row?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: vaf1en on Mon, 01 June 2020, 10:36:57
Very interested in a black-on-white set.
I have been waiting for something like this to roll around in KAT profile.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: equalunique on Mon, 01 June 2020, 11:02:32
Wish there was a BoW option for Dvorak (or Colevrak, or Typist, etc.).

Edit: I'm down for any Filco-compatible JIS kits too. At a minimum that means 4.5u space.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Acoipat on Mon, 01 June 2020, 11:22:33
Wow, WoB/BoW with a clean font and modular sets?? Must-buy, count me in for sets in both colours. Would love to see more KAT sets with non-centered legends

Looks great! Super clean and love the aesthetic, interested in proxying it. Pming you in a bit :)))

I'd love for there to be a Canada proxy, Vince does an amazing job!

- The F row kits seem to be the only ones with R5 keys. If keeping with that, they need to add keys like Insert and Delete (for 75% keyboards) and move the R4 End and PgDn there (for 1800 and 1800-like layouts).

+1 for R5 Del & Insert for 75% compat if keeping the F row R5.

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kidpid on Mon, 01 June 2020, 12:50:11
The 40s kit is super weak for KAT. I suggest taking a look at KAT Explosion or KAT Space Cadet.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: amperrsand on Mon, 01 June 2020, 13:32:35
Usually I am a person that likes the font used on SA and KAT. But I'm not against GMK's font or this refined one. I especially can't pass up the fact that I can get white mods with black keys; not a lot of others give that option.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: digid3ar on Mon, 01 June 2020, 13:38:28
im in! love concept and execution.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 01 June 2020, 15:48:17
- R2 \| is missing in the alphas kits (disregarding the HHKB ones); R3 #~ should be in NorDeUK instead.
- R3 1.5U \| is in the mods kits instead of the alphas kits for no apparent reason.
- Is the NorDeUk list of supported national layouts the usual band of five? (Danish, English (UK), German, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish) And... why? This is KAT, so it should be feasible to break this up into, at the very least, NorDe and UK.
- The NorDeUk kits are missing the numpad comma (although I'd put it in the numpad kits). I'll check in detail later, but so far there seem to be no other obvious errors or omissions there.
- The F row kits seem to be the only ones with R5 keys. If keeping with that, they need to add keys like Insert and Delete (for 75% keyboards) and move the R4 End and PgDn there (for 1800 and 1800-like layouts).

Thank you for your feedback. It looks like I will do revisions to R5. The rest I will have to think about some more.


One question- will other, future KAT sets be able to use the legends you develop for Refined? I'd really like to see more sets on KAT and I think that these legends would push designers towards KAT as a bigger option.

Not at the moment, but will think about it later if people are interested.


It's just a little bit pity that it's not regular KAT font as it will create inconsistency in font if someone would want to mix it with other KAT sets, GLWGB

Thank you for the feedback. There's not really a "KAT font". If you see the same font in several sets it is because the designer chose to not alter the template file when you can do whatever you want with the legends.


Is a french kit doable ? With classic colorway like these you would sell some (not hundreds tho). I think I would buy two full sets, especially if you put the third legend like you did in NorDe kit. This third legend is missing in all KAT sets because of centered legends.
You would make some dudes like me very happy !
I second this, also North and South kits would make a lot of sense for this kind of set. Please think about it!

Will give it some thought!


please add R2 1.75u Control in mod kit.

do you think a separate spacebar kit is possible?

Haven't seen that many requests for a spacebar kit. R2 1.75u Control is happening though  ;D


Are you going to do any novelties?
No sorry, no novelties.



F row not on mods kits... I dont get the point. Even if I dont use them I prefer to have a full base kit and KAT prices are not that important to separate them. This way you will save few dollars per kit, not worth it imo

I have to agree that base sets in general should be more encompassing. ISO, Function and Numpad should always be in base in my opinion.  I don't know about the rest of you guys but I normally buy all parts of any set in case I decide to put it on a different board and maybe one that has not even been designed yet.

I really don't see the need in making a base kit full of keys people don't need. There is no increased price in extra kits.


The font legends look amazing, but is there any chance to have them centered? I think that would be a fresh look that's better than the current state of both GMK and KAT legends.

Thank you, but that sort of defeats the purpose of the whole idea.



Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 01 June 2020, 15:53:56
Are there any black KAT keycaps out in the wild right now? I am curious to see how the dyesub will look for WoB. Otherwise, count me interested in this set.

Nope, none yet and I am curious like the rest of you how black we can get them. Like mentioned in an earlier post I will check color samples and see if the black is good enough. I will post my findings here so you can see for yourself once I have them in hand.


May I ask the reason for no full icon mods?
I just dislike them, so there's not much to refine except not offering them at all. Sorry. Hope there are other reasons for you to jump on the train anyway.



Would it be possible to have a small accent kit? Something like mr sleeves on Minimal. Would be very nice!
That's not something I will do in this round. Maybe R2



Great job! Any chance of adding a "Delete" on the F row?

Thank you, and yes  :D


The 40s kit is super weak for KAT. I suggest taking a look at KAT Explosion or KAT Space Cadet.

Thanks, I will have a look and check around among 40s peeps if they agree.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Senor Coconut on Mon, 01 June 2020, 16:02:15
Is a french kit doable ? With classic colorway like these you would sell some (not hundreds tho). I think I would buy two full sets, especially if you put the third legend like you did in NorDe kit. This third legend is missing in all KAT sets because of centered legends.
You would make some dudes like me very happy !

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
Same feeling, same question, same possible happiness
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: psxndc on Mon, 01 June 2020, 16:09:06
Wanna consider Colevrak+ support? A strong 13 out of 613 Alphas orders for KAT Arctic came with Colevrak+ orders, for example :P
Okay I know the numbers are not strong, but a few of us do exist and would appreciate it!

I know you're calling for Colevrak support and being cheeky, but I personally had to skip Arctic because I already got colevrak kits for KAT Milkshake, KAT Space Cadet, KAT Lantis, and KAT Eternal. I only have so much money, guy.

But I'd totally get it for this GB.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: marshskitow on Mon, 01 June 2020, 16:13:58
I would love to see CH swiss layout included in the NOR Kit <3
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Adelscott on Mon, 01 June 2020, 16:40:09
.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: noorejji on Mon, 01 June 2020, 17:26:53
This is looking very smart. Here's hoping the black in WoB will be decent.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: psxndc on Mon, 01 June 2020, 17:39:46
Are you going to do any novelties?
No sorry, no novelties.

That's fair. Then can I request either (i) a kit of 2 blanks in each of R2 and R3 (so 4 additional keys) or (ii) an R2 1u CTRL or FN in the 40s kit?

Sorry, it's just that some/plenty of ortho people don't have Tab or Esc in R2 on the left side and use that key for something else.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: LightenS on Mon, 01 June 2020, 17:42:00
+1 For Colevrak

Any chances to include Ergo?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kajahtaa on Mon, 01 June 2020, 23:52:32
I would also enjoy an Ortho kit roughly similar to KAT Space Cadet
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 02 June 2020, 02:03:38
Updated the Mac kits and F-Row kits

(https://i.imgur.com/WzmGJJC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ucC6clS.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Mekberg on Tue, 02 June 2020, 02:16:24
Could there be a R2 1.75u "Control" somewhere as well? For the not insignificant amount of people who like replacing Caps Lock with Control. Preferably icon, but anything is better than nothing.

Actually surprised that isn't in the HHKB kit by default, since that is default HHKB layout after all.

For me personally it could even go in the Mac kit, since I use Mac anyway and always map Caps Lock to Control in the system preferences. The "Command" key there is nice, but well, I don't have Command there... :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 02 June 2020, 02:22:35
Could there be a R2 1.75u "Control" somewhere as well? For the not insignificant amount of people who like replacing Caps Lock with Control. Preferably icon, but anything is better than nothing.

Actually surprised that isn't in the HHKB kit by default, since that is default HHKB layout after all.

For me personally it could even go in the Mac kit, since I use Mac anyway and always map Caps Lock to Control in the system preferences. The "Command" key there is nice, but well, I don't have Command there... :)

Yup it is on the todo list already  :cool:

edit: sorry, it will be in the mod kit rather
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: itsmartin on Tue, 02 June 2020, 02:30:41
Any particular reason that the R2 1.75u Control is going in the Mod kit rather than the HHKB kit?

It seems like a curious decision as the default HHBK layout has Control there; so the kit as-is assumes that users either change the default layout or want to have a differently labelled key there.

Edit: So for a HHKB user they'd want to get the HHKB kit and the Mod kit to get that one key for their desired layout, at which point there isn't really a reason to go for the HHKB kit at all. Everyone should just get the Alphas + Mod to cover HHKB/60%/65%/TKL, unless you're a HHKB user happy to go without the correct legend for the Control key you can then save some money by just getting the one kit.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bonsa on Tue, 02 June 2020, 02:31:23
I'm with the people who requested French kit.
Also, I think there's not enough support for 40/ortho/ergo users(like me). I saw it mentioned before, but maybe you could take a look at KAT explosion or space cadet.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: wgsunrise on Tue, 02 June 2020, 02:37:43
For me, trying a new profile with classic color scheme is definitely a good start.
However would you like to consider change arrows in text mod to text to fit the name better?

Edit: Forgot to mentioned that I have the same concern as others in previous comments, saying that how does the sculpted shaped of KAT caps affect the look of corner-aligned legend.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: harlekein on Tue, 02 June 2020, 06:15:54
Please do take advantage of KAT kitting options beyond offering HHKB layout.

I understand you are mimicking GMK, but we are no longer tied to their ridiculous MOQ model, so please let that part go. There's no reason to make 40s or ortho users buy full mod kits with addons here.

GMK kitting has always been a poor compromise where people beyond 60-full size QWERTY ANSI layouts are left behind or paying through the nose. With KAT we don't need to do that.

Please take a look at KAT WOB, Milkshake, Space Cadet for kitting options.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Escabrera on Tue, 02 June 2020, 06:24:45
Boy you weren't kidding with crossing out the gmk in the title, the 40s kit is pulled straight out of it. Besides that my biggest concerns with the kitting is that you will be paying a huge premium just to have smaller kits when what rensuya/eski have kitted out works a whole lot better for this style of moq.
So what's the exact purpose of having all these overlapping keys and eccentric kitting that's just copied as if it was gmk moq systems. The whole reason I and many people like Kat is that it's very flexible and limits the amount of wasted keys so this kind of kitting is the very opposite of refined. I sure hope this doesn't set a dangerous precedent if the kitting stays but thats my two cents.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Rafa_n on Tue, 02 June 2020, 07:35:03
Caps lock keys in the HHKB kit don't make a lot of sense. It should be a 1.75 Control since that is what HHKB layout uses as standard.

I don't care about 1 legend not being correct but a lot of people do, and they would have to buy the mod kit just to use the control key for their hhkb layout, which kills the purpose of a layout specific kit.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: tanega on Tue, 02 June 2020, 07:35:22
I'm supporting the requests for french, ergo, ...
Kat as a dream moq system for subkits, please don't drop them!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: D3LTA on Tue, 02 June 2020, 07:36:37
Colevrak for WoB and BoW please
My man. +1 for colevrak+ in both WoB and BoW.

Dvorcol's excellent reference:
https://imgur.com/gallery/4Sy4ph1
+1 for colevrak support

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Another vote for colevrak+ in both WoB & BoW.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Tue, 02 June 2020, 07:37:25
This is an interesting project, good job MacSurfy! I have a few questions/remarks:

On the icon+text ISO and numpad Enter keys, the ↲ icon is above the Enter text, whereas it's traditionally always been the other way around on GMK and other Cherry profile sets, as far as I know. Is this on purpose?

The Backspace arrow tail seems a tad too long to me. Maybe make it a bit shorter, so it's halfway in between the Tab and Enter arrows in length? Just a suggestion — feel free to ignore it if you think what you currently have works better, as I'm sure you had a reason for making it longer. To me it doesn't look bad, just odd, but that may be because I'm not used to it.

By the way, you can move the R4 (R1) PgDn and End keys to the numpad kit, since those keys are never used on boards without numpads.

Please consider using R3 \|, R4 <> for the ISO keys, like GMK Firefly, Yugo and Rouge did. These keys cover more layouts than R3 #~, R4 \| do. 1 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2908129#msg2908129) 2 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90706.msg2894820#msg2894820)

Overall, I think the way you have kitting set up is pretty interesting. Glad to see an alternative to the Code keys in the extra mods kits.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ceejaybvIbin on Tue, 02 June 2020, 07:38:16
very interested. i love how clean this looks.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 02 June 2020, 07:52:32
This is an interesting project, good job MacSurfy! I have a few questions/remarks:

On the icon+text ISO and numpad Enter keys, the ↲ icon is above the Enter text, whereas it's traditionally always been the other way around on GMK and other Cherry profile sets, as far as I know. Is this on purpose?

The Backspace arrow tail seems a tad too long to me. Maybe make it a bit shorter, so it's halfway in between the Tab and Enter arrows in length? Just a suggestion — feel free to ignore it if you think what you currently have works better, as I'm sure you had a reason for making it longer. To me it doesn't look bad, just odd, but that may be because I'm not used to it.

By the way, you can move the R4 (R1) PgDn and End keys to the numpad kit, since those keys are never used on boards without numpads.

Please consider using R3 \|, R4 <> for the ISO keys, like GMK Firefly, Yugo and Rouge did. These keys cover more layouts than R3 #~, R4 \| do. 1 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106305.msg2908129#msg2908129) 2 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90706.msg2894820#msg2894820)

Overall, I think the way you have kitting set up is pretty interesting. Glad to see an alternative to the Code keys in the extra mods kits.

Thank you Konstantin for your constructive and thought out reply. Appreciated. I actually had the R3 \|, R4 <> in before but removed them on someones advice. But you aren't the first to mention them so might look to add them back in.

Backspace arrow is actually set up to shrink with the cap size at a certain percentage (not updated in the visuals yet). You can't see it very well but on the Lodestone render you'll notice how it perfectly lines up with enter which looks quite pleasing (especially when seeing it from a straight down top view). The same happens on Icon+Text mods. I am still tweaking that setup so I might revert to a shorter tail in the end.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Tue, 02 June 2020, 08:10:11
Thank you Konstantin for your constructive and thought out reply. Appreciated. I actually had the R3 \|, R4 <> in before but removed them on someones advice. But you aren't the first to mention them so might look to add them back in.

Backspace arrow is actually set up to shrink with the cap size at a certain percentage (not updated in the visuals yet). You can't see it very well but on the Lodestone render you'll notice how it perfectly lines up with enter which looks quite pleasing (especially when seeing it from a straight down top view). The same happens on Icon+Text mods. I am still tweaking that setup so I might revert to a shorter tail in the end.

Ah, that makes sense, thank you for the explanation!

Regarding the ISO keys, the other international keyboardery folks (depletedvespene, dvorcol, kidviddy) and I are open to discussing the benefits and drawbacks of either approach. If you or anyone else working on the set have any thoughts on the matter, feel free to reach out to us. The data we've gathered so far seems to conclusively indicate that your initial approach is better in terms of users and layout coverage. Meanwhile, your current approach is evidently more common if we look at past GBs. We're pushing for R3 \|, R4 <> in future GBs in order to hopefully make the more useful approach more common too.

Any comments on my question about the icon+text vertical Enter icons?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Applet on Tue, 02 June 2020, 08:34:11
Great work MacSurfy  :thumb:

If possible I'd love to see either a (split) space kit, or a addition of a 1.25 blank in the 40's kit, for basic split space support (2.25u+1.25u+2.75u is the most common setup)  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bl4ck on Tue, 02 June 2020, 08:39:12
I support the previous comments of taking advantage of KAT kitting, +1 for North/South/French kits to be able to include as much languages.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: platypusduck on Tue, 02 June 2020, 08:42:41
Interesting project – looks like you'll be testing KAT's dye sub capabilities.

A bit of a nitpick though – the numbers row could use some love. The symbols are visually all over the place, as if they come from a different typeface. Take the at symbol and the ampersand. I gather they'd do well in typical typesetting applications, but here they look out of place. The counters are distractingly large. As it is, 2, 4, and 7 really stand out. 9 ( and 0 ) could also use some horizontal alignment fixes. And there's something a bit off with W...

All in all, great effort here. This community needs more typographically-inclined people who don't say "that's good enough" to what we get with GMK legends.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 02 June 2020, 08:45:37
Boy you weren't kidding with crossing out the gmk in the title, the 40s kit is pulled straight out of it. Besides that my biggest concerns with the kitting is that you will be paying a huge premium just to have smaller kits when what rensuya/eski have kitted out works a whole lot better for this style of moq.
So what's the exact purpose of having all these overlapping keys and eccentric kitting that's just copied as if it was gmk moq systems. The whole reason I and many people like Kat is that it's very flexible and limits the amount of wasted keys so this kind of kitting is the very opposite of refined. I sure hope this doesn't set a dangerous precedent if the kitting stays but thats my two cents.

I hear you, and you aren't the only one who has commented on the kits. If I would follow previous "succesful" KAT-kitting I would end up with approximately 40 kits. Looking at the sales on a few different KAT sets I find it really hard to motivate the increased risk of QC/packaging errors AND all the extra work I have to put in (we're not talking a few hours here). The loud minority is present as always on GH  ;D. Personally I am also wondering how intimidating it is for people who aren't as deep in the hobby as we might be to pick the kits they need when there is so many of them. This is also something I have heard from vendors.

Your message was received loud and clear though. I will be thinking about how I can structure the kits in a more efficient way that has the biggest reach. If you have any pointers let me know and I will try my best to make it happen.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: tominabox1 on Tue, 02 June 2020, 08:55:27
Boy you weren't kidding with crossing out the gmk in the title, the 40s kit is pulled straight out of it. Besides that my biggest concerns with the kitting is that you will be paying a huge premium just to have smaller kits when what rensuya/eski have kitted out works a whole lot better for this style of moq.
So what's the exact purpose of having all these overlapping keys and eccentric kitting that's just copied as if it was gmk moq systems. The whole reason I and many people like Kat is that it's very flexible and limits the amount of wasted keys so this kind of kitting is the very opposite of refined. I sure hope this doesn't set a dangerous precedent if the kitting stays but thats my two cents.

I hear you, and you aren't the only one who has commented on the kits. If I would follow previous "succesful" KAT-kitting I would end up with approximately 40 kits. Looking at the sales on a few different KAT sets I find it really hard to motivate the increased risk of QC/packaging errors AND all the extra work I have to put in (we're not talking a few hours here). The loud minority is present as always on GH  ;D. Personally I am also wondering how intimidating it is for people who aren't as deep in the hobby as we might be to pick the kits they need when there is so many of them. This is also something I have heard from vendors.

Your message was received loud and clear though. I will be thinking about how I can structure the kits in a more efficient way that has the biggest reach. If you have any pointers let me know and I will try my best to make it happen.

You have the pointers, copy Space Cadet kitting.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: harlekein on Tue, 02 June 2020, 09:06:02
Boy you weren't kidding with crossing out the gmk in the title, the 40s kit is pulled straight out of it. Besides that my biggest concerns with the kitting is that you will be paying a huge premium just to have smaller kits when what rensuya/eski have kitted out works a whole lot better for this style of moq.
So what's the exact purpose of having all these overlapping keys and eccentric kitting that's just copied as if it was gmk moq systems. The whole reason I and many people like Kat is that it's very flexible and limits the amount of wasted keys so this kind of kitting is the very opposite of refined. I sure hope this doesn't set a dangerous precedent if the kitting stays but thats my two cents.

I hear you, and you aren't the only one who has commented on the kits. If I would follow previous "succesful" KAT-kitting I would end up with approximately 40 kits. Looking at the sales on a few different KAT sets I find it really hard to motivate the increased risk of QC/packaging errors AND all the extra work I have to put in (we're not talking a few hours here). The loud minority is present as always on GH  ;D. Personally I am also wondering how intimidating it is for people who aren't as deep in the hobby as we might be to pick the kits they need when there is so many of them. This is also something I have heard from vendors.

Your message was received loud and clear though. I will be thinking about how I can structure the kits in a more efficient way that has the biggest reach. If you have any pointers let me know and I will try my best to make it happen.

You have the pointers, copy Space Cadet kitting.

Or combine 40s/ortho if you have to. You won't even have to add kits. Just replace current 40s add-on kit with 40s/ortho. You will have the exact same number of kits. Just one good one instead of handicapped add-on.

I don't think anyone is asking for 6 more kits. 40s/ortho users are asking for one kit to be replaced. At the very least.

Now it would be nice to add one more kit for each colorway so there's a choice between icons and text, but that's okay. I understand you don't want to add more kits after having added 3 different regular mod kits with F keys separated already. (There's a solution for that as well, and people who use F keys have mentioned it in this thread.)

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 02 June 2020, 09:11:06
Boy you weren't kidding with crossing out the gmk in the title, the 40s kit is pulled straight out of it. Besides that my biggest concerns with the kitting is that you will be paying a huge premium just to have smaller kits when what rensuya/eski have kitted out works a whole lot better for this style of moq.
So what's the exact purpose of having all these overlapping keys and eccentric kitting that's just copied as if it was gmk moq systems. The whole reason I and many people like Kat is that it's very flexible and limits the amount of wasted keys so this kind of kitting is the very opposite of refined. I sure hope this doesn't set a dangerous precedent if the kitting stays but thats my two cents.

I hear you, and you aren't the only one who has commented on the kits. If I would follow previous "succesful" KAT-kitting I would end up with approximately 40 kits. Looking at the sales on a few different KAT sets I find it really hard to motivate the increased risk of QC/packaging errors AND all the extra work I have to put in (we're not talking a few hours here). The loud minority is present as always on GH  ;D. Personally I am also wondering how intimidating it is for people who aren't as deep in the hobby as we might be to pick the kits they need when there is so many of them. This is also something I have heard from vendors.

Your message was received loud and clear though. I will be thinking about how I can structure the kits in a more efficient way that has the biggest reach. If you have any pointers let me know and I will try my best to make it happen.

You have the pointers, copy Space Cadet kitting.

Or combine 40s/ortho if you have to. You won't even have to add kits. Just replace current 40s add-on kit with 40s/ortho. You will have the exact same number of kits. Just one good one instead of handicapped add-on.

I don't think anyone is asking for 6 more kits. 40s/ortho users are asking for one kit to be replaced. At the very least.

Now it would be nice to add one more kit for each colorway so there's a choice between icons and text, but that's okay. I understand you don't want to add more kits after having added 3 different regular mod kits with F keys separated already. (There's a solution for that as well, and people who use F keys have mentioned it in this thread.)

Tnx, will def look in to it and get back to ya'll
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: bananasplit_00 on Tue, 02 June 2020, 09:25:33
This is gona sell like hotcakes, gimme!  ^-^
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Slayer77 on Tue, 02 June 2020, 10:18:16
Has it been clarified if the white will be ws1 or ws2?

Sent from my GM1911 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: stoffelduss on Tue, 02 June 2020, 12:10:58
The numbers of the number row look pretty small in your pictures of the kits. Especially noticeable in the NorDe kit, symbols and characters like € and ß are way bigger than the numbers.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: cadrev on Tue, 02 June 2020, 13:23:15
Interested on this set, just wanna ask how is the black here different from KAT WOB?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 02 June 2020, 13:37:41
The numbers of the number row look pretty small in your pictures of the kits. Especially noticeable in the NorDe kit, symbols and characters like € and ß are way bigger than the numbers.

This is true and intentional, and so does GMK.

I know GMK offer a few variations on this (GMK Striker for instance), but the "common" one is using 3 sizes (if we disregard a few anomalies). Alpha letter, number and sublegend, which is a little bit bigger than the numbers. The problem I think with it is that the sublegends are only a little bit bigger but not enough to be really obvious. In some cases they made them the same size as the numbers and in some cases they are quite a bit bigger. So it's all over the place depending on which one you are looking at.

I wanted to keep that train of thought with three sizes since I think it makes sense to create heirarchy. Especially when tertiary legends are involved (like in NorDeUK) but use a stronger contrast between them and stick to it as much as possible. I did play around with the idea of doing the numbers a lot bigger, roughly in the same size as Striker but it does look a little bit funky and maybe harder to swallow for some. Even though I like it a lot.

Below is an example of the current design compared to a GMK Norde kit

(https://i.imgur.com/SGSYQvp.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: drfranco on Tue, 02 June 2020, 13:58:34
Definitely interested. Great design work.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: luxus on Tue, 02 June 2020, 15:20:43
Interested ..
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 02 June 2020, 16:08:33
40s kit will be replaced by a 40's & Ortho kit. Working on it right now. Hope it will please most of you :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: gminso on Tue, 02 June 2020, 16:11:42
Canadian vendor?  :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: -Jehos- on Tue, 02 June 2020, 16:26:31
do you want to elaborate on why you chose to have an hhkb kit rather than a "tsangan 60%" kit?
at bare minimum, 2 more keys (2x 1.5u ctrl) would give you a 7u bottom row.
1 additional key (2.75u shift) would give you full right shift support.
2 additional keys (2u backspace and 1.5u pipe) would give full backspace support.
potentially, a fulltouch caps lock would round off all "needed" compatibility for a 7u 60% kit.

all in all, that is 6 additional keys which would make the kit much more desirable to a much wider range of people. so, the question stands - any reason you chose to make the kit hhkb only?

just my 2 cents, glwic :)
I agree that the HHKB kit is a little weird, since it seems like the entirety of the HHKB kit plus Tsangan support and normal ANSI support is covered by the letter + choice of mods.  I don't know if there are MOQs when you're talking about dye sub, but it seems like HHKB is overly specific as a kit, while also being overly opinionated about text/icons/both.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bl4ck on Tue, 02 June 2020, 16:44:53
Btw, no IC form?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bonsa on Tue, 02 June 2020, 17:27:02
40s kit will be replaced by a 40's & Ortho kit. Working on it right now. Hope it will please most of you :)


You sir just sold me a set! Thank you very much for your effort. I believe this set is going to be a standard for future KAT groupbuys. It's like GMK and SA had a baby. And it's a beauty.
(edit: woops quoted wrong comment)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Slaydo on Tue, 02 June 2020, 19:32:20
Love it! I fell in love with the KAT profile coming from SA and love the non-aggressive lines KAT offers. Really like the simplicity of going with WoB. Have you thought of possibly having scooped homing keys as opposed to the ones with the bump on 'em. Definitely be keeping an eye on this one, cheers!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Tue, 02 June 2020, 19:36:42
Love it! I fell in love with the KAT profile coming from SA and love the non-aggressive lines KAT offers. Really like the simplicity of going with WoB. Have you thought of possibly having scooped homing keys as opposed to the ones with the bump on 'em. Definitely be keeping an eye on this one, cheers!

Do KAT scooped homing molds exist? I don't think they do.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: digid3ar on Tue, 02 June 2020, 20:12:27
im not an expert with kitting sets, but the og 40s kit was ok to me. dont know if there is a special reason to mix 40s wtih ortho,i think ortholinear belongs more to the ergo kits, but that is only my opinion.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: !Q on Tue, 02 June 2020, 20:26:56
Can we get asetniop compat? 2 1u convex keys.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: fropsie on Tue, 02 June 2020, 21:09:00
This is sick!!!! Definitely going to join in on it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: blaqbern on Tue, 02 June 2020, 23:17:01
The thing that’s always bothered me about GMK sets is the caps lock legend on the icon mods. Nothing about that symbol indicates caps lock to me. Looks more like lowercase lock. Assuming the goal is to create a set with the signature GMK look but with all the flaws fixed up, seems like an opportunity to fix that incongruous legend. The upward arrow with the little bar underneath (seen in GMK Future Funk icon mods, for example) captures the caps lock function much more accurately IMO.
If you do decide to stick with the down arrow icon, I’ll still be in for BoW with text mods!
Great work on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: NoPunIn10Did on Tue, 02 June 2020, 23:21:32
The downward arrow to mean “lock” is fairly common in European keyboards. In German-language boards, they rarely have anything other than that icon on that key.

I’m not sure who started the trend, but GMK likely uses it because they’re a German company.

The thing that’s always bothered me about GMK sets is the caps lock legend on the icon mods. Nothing about that symbol indicates caps lock to me. Looks more like lowercase lock. Assuming the goal is to create a set with the signature GMK look but with all the flaws fixed up, seems like an opportunity to fix that incongruous legend. The upward arrow with the little bar underneath (seen in GMK Future Funk icon mods, for example) captures the caps lock function much more accurately IMO.
If you do decide to stick with the down arrow icon, I’ll still be in for BoW with text mods!
Great work on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: koenoe on Wed, 03 June 2020, 00:47:41
As a GMK fanboy this will be my first KAT set. Looks amazing!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: harlekein on Wed, 03 June 2020, 03:27:19
im not an expert with kitting sets, but the og 40s kit was ok to me. dont know if there is a special reason to mix 40s wtih ortho,i think ortholinear belongs more to the ergo kits, but that is only my opinion.

You probably have GMK Stockholm Syndrome if you think that 40s kitting is okay. This is KAT land and we have much more options here.

You do have a point though. It hasn't gone that way, but it could also make sense to combine regular + 40s mods in one kit and ergo + ortho in another if kits have to be combined. But they don't really have to with KAT, so why make people pay for a lot more plastic than they will use?

I would go further and prefer seeing separate ortho and 40s kits, but I've come to accept that with lots of kits, some have to be combined and lots of the 1u keys from ortho can be used by 40s. The other way around, not so much.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: lakeboredom on Wed, 03 June 2020, 05:07:32
This is the future. I love it soo much, can't wait to buy both sets.
My only complaint is a couple of the icon mods look off. Backspace is way too long, and the hook on ansi Enter is too short, doesn't look icony enough. Oh and we need full icon mods too ;p
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: killchain on Wed, 03 June 2020, 05:46:56
I've got a Boardwalk build on the way and I'd be interested if there's going to be an Ergo kit that would fit either of these layouts:

https://imgur.com/a/jjL74xz

Maybe also some 1U blanks for the bottom row too, but I think the usual Ergodox kit fits the bill.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Wed, 03 June 2020, 06:52:55
40s kit has been replaced.

(https://i.imgur.com/fk2HoK8.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Joaquox on Wed, 03 June 2020, 07:28:25
40s kit has been replaced.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/fk2HoK8.jpg)

Ne icon mods?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Wed, 03 June 2020, 07:38:40
40s kit has been replaced.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/fk2HoK8.jpg)

Ne icon mods?

I was going for that at first but seems like text mods is the preferred way on smaller layouts.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Joaquox on Wed, 03 June 2020, 07:48:09
40s kit has been replaced.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/fk2HoK8.jpg)

Ne icon mods?

I was going for that at first but seems like text mods is the preferred way on smaller layouts.

Except it's not. Every KAT GB so far that featured both options had a larger amount of icon mods sold for ortho.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Wed, 03 June 2020, 09:25:08
Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 03 June 2020, 09:39:13
Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.

You could use a Ctrl icon there (∧). I personally think it looks pretty good on GMK sets. I use MoDo on one of my MX HHKB boards, with the 1.75u icon Ctrl key, and text mods on the bottom row. I think it's much less of an eyesore than “Control” in the middle of icon mods. My 2¢.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: psxndc on Wed, 03 June 2020, 10:05:01
40s kit has been replaced.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/fk2HoK8.jpg)

I'm a big fan of the R2 changes you've made and love the space bar options. Thank you!!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: harlekein on Wed, 03 June 2020, 10:44:51
40s kit has been replaced.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/fk2HoK8.jpg)

Ne icon mods?

I was going for that at first but seems like text mods is the preferred way on smaller layouts.

Except it's not. Every KAT GB so far that featured both options had a larger amount of icon mods sold for ortho.

To me this really depends on the kit colors, the font, the alphas (I don't like non-Latin alphas with text mods), etc. In this case I like the text mods more than icon mods. So it's very subjective.

Ideally both would be on offer, but that's the runners choice.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: bow3i on Wed, 03 June 2020, 12:12:15
I love the attention to detail, hope this goes well for you!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: daerid on Wed, 03 June 2020, 12:40:05
Yup. I'm in. For at least two sets of BoW. This is the kit I've been waiting for
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bonsa on Wed, 03 June 2020, 12:41:50
40s kit has been replaced.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/fk2HoK8.jpg)

Ne icon mods?

I was going for that at first but seems like text mods is the preferred way on smaller layouts.

Except it's not. Every KAT GB so far that featured both options had a larger amount of icon mods sold for ortho.

To me this really depends on the kit colors, the font, the alphas (I don't like non-Latin alphas with text mods), etc. In this case I like the text mods more than icon mods. So it's very subjective.

Ideally both would be on offer, but that's the runners choice.

Yeah, same for me. Maybe it is time for a form?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kajahtaa on Wed, 03 June 2020, 12:47:25
Would much rather have ortho kit separate.

Look at KAT Space Cadet ortho kit numbers.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 03 June 2020, 13:49:54
You may also want to include R1 1u Delete in the HHKB kit, since some people like to use that for their top-right corner key instead of `~.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: dvorcol on Wed, 03 June 2020, 14:48:58
The downward arrow to mean “lock” is fairly common in European keyboards. In German-language boards, they rarely have anything other than that icon on that key.

I’m not sure who started the trend, but GMK likely uses it because they’re a German company.

The thing that’s always bothered me about GMK sets is the caps lock legend on the icon mods. Nothing about that symbol indicates caps lock to me. Looks more like lowercase lock. Assuming the goal is to create a set with the signature GMK look but with all the flaws fixed up, seems like an opportunity to fix that incongruous legend. The upward arrow with the little bar underneath (seen in GMK Future Funk icon mods, for example) captures the caps lock function much more accurately IMO.
If you do decide to stick with the down arrow icon, I’ll still be in for BoW with text mods!
Great work on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On a mechanical typewriter, shift is a lever that lifts the carriage up, putting the paper roll in line with the capital letters on the type hammers.  A down arrow on the shift lock indicates its function, which is to literally lock the shift lever in the down position.

An up arrow on the shift key indicates its function: hold the carriage up.  However, this key at the end of the shift lever is often blank, probably for same reason the carriage return lever isn't labeled.

(https://cdn4.explainthatstuff.com/typewriter3.jpg)

In case anyone is curious, I found this picture here (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/typewriter.html).
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: lakeboredom on Wed, 03 June 2020, 17:41:31
Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.
Please make it a control icon in the icon mods NOT TEXT. Also please add a full icon bottom row kit, since there is not limit to the kits I can't imagine a scenario where you don't add this option. 
To reiterate my last message. Backspace icon is way too long, and the hook on ANSI Enter is too short, it doesnt look icony enough, please compare to GMK icon mods.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bl4ck on Wed, 03 June 2020, 17:45:01
Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.
Please make it a control icon in the icon mods NOT TEXT. Also please add a full icon bottom row kit, since there is not limit to the kits I can't imagine a scenario where you don't add this option. 
To reiterate my last message. Backspace icon is way too long, and the hook on ANSI Enter is too short, it doesnt look icony enough, please compare to GMK icon mods.

I support this. The flexibility in KAT should allow and encourage this.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Solotov on Wed, 03 June 2020, 22:58:51
Would love to see alternate alphas other than English like some other KAT sets  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 04 June 2020, 02:58:17
To reiterate my last message. Backspace icon is way too long, and the hook on ANSI Enter is too short, it doesnt look icony enough, please compare to GMK icon mods.

I heard you the first time ;D. Thank you for your feedback, but "they are too long" or "too short" is an opinion that I am guessing you are basing off what GMK does? If you check my second post after the intro you'll see that there is no system in how GMK does it, neither do I want to replicate exactly what they are doing. I am actually planning to do an overhaul on them in a bit and present it to you guys with a bit more background and maybe even options. I have a few kitting issues I want to resolve first and they may also impact the arrows (40s/Ortho kit mods icon vs. text) so I am hoping you'll like them more once I do that, but that will happen a bit later.

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 04 June 2020, 03:07:35
Added 1.75u Control to HHKB kits. It feels pretty Frankensteined at the moment. Personally I would not use a text mod like that with icon mods. Rather just use the regular Caps Lock icons so we will see how I feel about it later down the road.
Please make it a control icon in the icon mods NOT TEXT. Also please add a full icon bottom row kit, since there is not limit to the kits I can't imagine a scenario where you don't add this option. 

The idea with the HHKB kit (previously named "Chef's Special") was that I would offer a HHKB layout the way I rock it. Sort of a take it or leave it kit with the exact amount of keys and nothing more. More like a little fun idea that people could buy in to or not. Earlier version even had mixed BoW/WoB in it. The downside with this is of course that some will feel left out (Tsangan), some want other keys... some hate the mods etc etc. I was fully aware that this might happen but the more revisions people ask for in this kit the less I feel it was a good idea to have it in to begin with.

It's getting too bloated and you could actually just grab the other kits and get the mods you want, just like with any other set out there. Since numpad and F-row is broken out of the standard base kits I don't think you would pay that much more actually. I'd be happy to do revisions to the mods kits instead you can use the combo you want. Sounds good?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 04 June 2020, 03:21:55
You may also want to include R1 1u Delete in the HHKB kit, since some people like to use that for their top-right corner key instead of `~.


Please make it a control icon in the icon mods NOT TEXT. Also please add a full icon bottom row kit, since there is not limit to the kits I can't imagine a scenario where you don't add this option. 

The idea with the HHKB kit (previously named "Chef's Special") was that I would offer a HHKB layout the way I rock it. Sort of a take it or leave it kit with the exact amount of keys and nothing more. More like a little fun idea that people could buy in to or not. Earlier version even had mixed BoW/WoB in it. The downside with this is of course that some will feel left out (Tsangan), some want other keys... some hate the mods etc etc. I was fully aware that this might happen but the more revisions people ask for in this kit the less I feel it was a good idea to have it in to begin with.

It's getting too bloated and you could actually just grab the other kits and get the mods you want, just like with any other set out there. Since numpad and F-row is broken out I don't think you would pay that much more actually. I'd be happy to do revisions to the mods kits instead you can use the combo you want. Sounds good?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: mrbiin on Thu, 04 June 2020, 04:03:30
Is a french kit doable ? With classic colorway like these you would sell some (not hundreds tho). I think I would buy two full sets, especially if you put the third legend like you did in NorDe kit. This third legend is missing in all KAT sets because of centered legends.
You would make some dudes like me very happy !
I second this, also North and South kits would make a lot of sense for this kind of set. Please think about it!

Another vote for North and South kits here.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: nguyenhimself on Thu, 04 June 2020, 04:18:55
Question: Why do we need a seperate WoB sub-set, when KAT WoB is still on track and looks pretty much the same?

(https://i.imgur.com/EhiUpwj.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Joaquox on Thu, 04 June 2020, 04:27:33
Question: Why do we need a seperate WoB sub-set, when KAT WoB is still on track and looks pretty much the same?

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/EhiUpwj.jpg)

Read the first 2 posts.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 04 June 2020, 05:03:31
Question: Why do we need a seperate WoB sub-set, when KAT WoB is still on track and looks pretty much the same?

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/EhiUpwj.jpg)


Edit: I was trolled obviously  :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: harlekein on Thu, 04 June 2020, 06:23:29
Question: Why do we need a seperate WoB sub-set, when KAT WoB is still on track and looks pretty much the same?

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/EhiUpwj.jpg)


Edit: I was trolled obviously  :D

That guy is always trolling.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Acoipat on Thu, 04 June 2020, 09:04:58
It's looking great, thanks for all your work and responsiveness so far. Super excited for this!

With the change to 40s, I'd be interested in seeing some sort of smaller standalone spacebar kit for split and Alice layout support without all those extra keys. Something small with just a bunch of bars and an extra b? :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: KingOfMemes on Thu, 04 June 2020, 11:23:41
Yo for real though, colevrak boys are going to eat on this one, yeah?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Keyjus on Thu, 04 June 2020, 13:01:52
Will there be a mixed black and white kit like in one of the renders?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 04 June 2020, 13:07:45
Will there be a mixed black and white kit like in one of the renders?

That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense when there's already two versions of each to pick from. What you see most often is for instance black mods and white alphas. So then you don't need a mixed kit. The specific one you are talking about is the Iron180 I guess and that has exactly that combo but also two F-Row kits (BoW & WoB). It's the only additional kit you need for that specific look.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Poesjuh on Thu, 04 June 2020, 13:51:44
Yes! Couldn’t agree more about the big font alpha’s of kat. It’s the one thing I dislike every time. Perhaps this will be my first KAT set? Time will tell :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: cowsareverywhere on Thu, 04 June 2020, 15:09:28
I am gonna be spending so much money when this gets to GB!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 04 June 2020, 15:18:04
I am gonna be spending so much money when this gets to GB!

Thank you, and thank you to the people I haven't thanked yet  ;)

Regarding GB, I will make a proper announcement when I know a little bit more but I was aiming for August 1st but that's a little bit unrealistic I think.

I will be ordering color samples tomorrow and apparently it will be some time before I get them. It is quite important that I have them before the GB though so better to add another month. I would say we're probably looking at Sept 1st but as we get a little bit closer I will announce an official date.

Cheers!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: amperrsand on Thu, 04 June 2020, 22:05:50
I actually did a double take and realized that the Function keys are separate from the modifiers. Is that a money-saving decision?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Scottw on Thu, 04 June 2020, 23:42:12
Obviously a crap ton of work went into this. Thank you for your effort.

It might add too much to the initial project, but I would love to see additional colors as well. Your basic blue, red, green, etc. This would allow you to just focus on acquiring additional colors rather than worrying about sets/themes.

Still early, but a smart vendor should consider making this a stock set. I am in for one of each for sure.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 00:14:41
I actually did a double take and realized that the Function keys are separate from the modifiers. Is that a money-saving decision?

Yes I decided to move them to their own kit so that users of smaller layouts don't have to pay for them. Same with numpad.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: desmotyping on Fri, 05 June 2020, 00:27:30
Another one hoping for Colevrak.  This set looks great and I'd purchase it for certain if it had it; I actually registered for geekhack in the hope that one more vote might make a difference.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MelonBred on Fri, 05 June 2020, 00:28:54
I see that there's some debate on whether to go with icon or text mods for the 40s kit. If we're keeping track of votes, mine would go to icon mods. Very much looking forward to purchasing this set either way!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: hammerbrotha on Fri, 05 June 2020, 01:31:23
Love it, i'm in!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Adelscott on Fri, 05 June 2020, 01:59:44
So this really will be the first KAT set not offering French support ?

This potentially could sell even better than KAT Milkshake. In a perfect world, a mainstream colorway like yours could be available in stock in EU proxies at all times and sell regularly to new comers ...

@OP you replied to me on Reddit that "the numbers of french kits on previous GBs were too small",  I ear that. But did you consider that those who buy those kits also buy the others kits ? Could you go the extra mile like almost all other KAT designers ? Is that really complicated and time consuming to offer this "basic" kit ?  We are not asking for a second B or to split a kit in fifty ways to please some, we are just begging to exist.

KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

#ThisIsNotGMK #AzertyLivesMatter

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: harlekein on Fri, 05 June 2020, 02:34:38
KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

I feel the same about KAT and Colevrak. I know a lot of people keep using typewriter layouts, but please, Colemak users are increasing and with KAT we finally have a chance to just get in on kits.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 03:08:56
So this really will be the first KAT set not offering French support ?

This potentially could sell even better than KAT Milkshake. In a perfect world, a mainstream colorway like yours could be available in stock in EU proxies at all times and sell regularly to new comers ...

@OP you replied to me on Reddit that "the numbers of french kits on previous GBs were too small",  I ear that. But did you consider that those who buy those kits also buy the others kits ? Could you go the extra mile like almost all other KAT designers ? Is that really complicated and time consuming to offer this "basic" kit ?  We are not asking for a second B or to split a kit in fifty ways to please some, we are just begging to exist.

KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

#ThisIsNotGMK #AzertyLivesMatter

I haven't made any hard choices yet between kits, so there's still hope  :cool:. Kits are still being changed often, I had a big change yesterday, and another one the day before. GB is still quite some time away and I am moving down the ladder and looking at priorities. I said the French kit is not looking very likely, and with Space Cadet selling 6 (!!) kits in total that is still true. In the order of things there are other kits that are more important and bigger groups of users that want to have their needs met first. It's just the way it is, hope you can understand that?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: harlekein on Fri, 05 June 2020, 04:06:11
Colevrak sets aren't selling that much anymore on all KAT offerings. The first few sure did, because "Finally! Colevrak!". After some time this has saturated a bit. And I take into the acount that when a non-Latin monolegend kit is offered, Colevrak users can buy that instead and are paying less than alphas + Colevrak kit.

Since this set has a different look than other KAT sets and there are no non-Latin legends on offer, I honestly believe Colevrak kits will do fairly well. KAT Space Cadet offered something truly amazing for alternative layout users: Stand alone Colemak and Dvorak alpha kits. It also had a mono cadet legend kit, so Colevrak users were spread out over three different kits. They didn't sell huge, but still okay, I'd say.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 04:10:03
Colevrak sets aren't selling that much anymore on all KAT offerings. The first few sure did, because "Finally! Colevrak!". After some time this has saturated a bit. And I take into the acount that when a non-Latin monolegend kit is offered, Colevrak users can buy that instead and are paying less than alphas + Colevrak kit.

Since this set has a different look than other KAT sets and there are no non-Latin legends on offer, I honestly believe Colevrak kits will do fairly well. KAT Space Cadet offered something truly amazing for alternative layout users: Stand alone Colemak and Dvorak alpha kits. It also had a mono cadet legend kit, so Colevrak users were spread out over three different kits. They didn't sell huge, but still okay, I'd say.

Yes agreed that there might be a different interest.. or maybe not. But I am compiling numbers now from all the sets that have numbers available to make a bit of a priority list so changes/additions are coming.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: DERBS on Fri, 05 June 2020, 05:31:36
Wow! I love it! Count me in for most kits for BoW and WoB

Also +1 for Icon mods in the 40s Kit!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Adelscott on Fri, 05 June 2020, 10:31:57
So this really will be the first KAT set not offering French support ?

This potentially could sell even better than KAT Milkshake. In a perfect world, a mainstream colorway like yours could be available in stock in EU proxies at all times and sell regularly to new comers ...

@OP you replied to me on Reddit that "the numbers of french kits on previous GBs were too small",  I ear that. But did you consider that those who buy those kits also buy the others kits ? Could you go the extra mile like almost all other KAT designers ? Is that really complicated and time consuming to offer this "basic" kit ?  We are not asking for a second B or to split a kit in fifty ways to please some, we are just begging to exist.

KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

#ThisIsNotGMK #AzertyLivesMatter

I haven't made any hard choices yet between kits, so there's still hope  :cool:. Kits are still being changed often, I had a big change yesterday, and another one the day before. GB is still quite some time away and I am moving down the ladder and looking at priorities. I said the French kit is not looking very likely, and with Space Cadet selling 6 (!!) kits in total that is still true. In the order of things there are other kits that are more important and bigger groups of users that want to have their needs met first. It's just the way it is, hope you can understand that?

I understand, don't get me wrong, I know what it is to reply to dozens of requests, and I am paid for it, not doing it on my valuable spare time like you, so  :thumb: for you truly.

By the way, and I say it very humbly because the numbers of others GB are not huge : you took the worst run for French  :'( . Here the GBs I followed :

(https://i.imgur.com/EcPPwib.png)

International and UK did the same low numbers as french in Space Cadet.

Last but not least, biip opened the way by integrating by default a french kit in KAT Milkshake. And I'm not gonna lie, that's what sucked me into this expensive hobby  :).  Allmost all subsequents KAT GBs, with centered legends did the same : a French kit available. Would they have done it without the initial biip move ? Maybe, maybe not. All I know is we are very grateful they did.  You see me coming I guess, your set could be the foundation of others sets to come ...

Edit: sorry wrong numbers for Space Cadet, they were not final. Updated below

(https://i.imgur.com/ussxEIe.png)

Still bad for french, but It made better after with KAT Arctic !
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 10:52:50
Hello fine folks.

I have been crunching numbers today. It has maybe not been the most fun thing I have ever done but very helpful in making choices based on facts. When I went over the sets I did not count novelty kits or language kits such as greek, katakana, korean etc or blanks. I also bundled all mod kits (icon, text icon+text) and the same with all alphas and other kits that could be bundled. It cleaned up a whole lot of noise. (let me know if you want to see that list also if you don't trust me  :cool:) I am aware that the same buyer might have grabbed two when they would otherwise just have bought one if that was the only choice but such is life. I can't disregard them, but I also think they are hardly a majority so it doesn't matter much in the end anyway. Also those kits are the ones I already have anyway.

Another thing to note is that UK, US and UK&US have been split in my list. I think it skews the results a bit in a strange way to combine all of them in to one so they are still separated. But even if they are joined it doesn't make a huge difference.

Here we have the list with the results on the right side (ordered and non-ordered). What is marked green is what I already have (I included the split Ortho and 40s kits too) just so it becomes clearer what should be added.
(https://i.imgur.com/OsJLeB6.jpg)

The ordered list on its own for clarity
(https://i.imgur.com/USna4E5.jpg)

Let me know what you think of this list but I think it is pretty clear that a spacebar kit and Ergo kit is needed at the very least.

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 11:00:04
So this really will be the first KAT set not offering French support ?

This potentially could sell even better than KAT Milkshake. In a perfect world, a mainstream colorway like yours could be available in stock in EU proxies at all times and sell regularly to new comers ...

@OP you replied to me on Reddit that "the numbers of french kits on previous GBs were too small",  I ear that. But did you consider that those who buy those kits also buy the others kits ? Could you go the extra mile like almost all other KAT designers ? Is that really complicated and time consuming to offer this "basic" kit ?  We are not asking for a second B or to split a kit in fifty ways to please some, we are just begging to exist.

KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

#ThisIsNotGMK #AzertyLivesMatter

I haven't made any hard choices yet between kits, so there's still hope  :cool:. Kits are still being changed often, I had a big change yesterday, and another one the day before. GB is still quite some time away and I am moving down the ladder and looking at priorities. I said the French kit is not looking very likely, and with Space Cadet selling 6 (!!) kits in total that is still true. In the order of things there are other kits that are more important and bigger groups of users that want to have their needs met first. It's just the way it is, hope you can understand that?

I understand, don't get me wrong, I know what it is to reply to dozens of requests, and I am paid for it, not doing it on my valuable spare time like you, so  :thumb: for you truly.

By the way, and I say it very humbly because the numbers of others GB are not huge : you took the worst run for French  :'( . Here the GBs I followed :

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/EcPPwib.png)


International and UK did the same low numbers as french in Space Cadet.

Last but not least, biip opened the way by integrating by default a french kit in KAT Milkshake. And I'm not gonna lie, that's what sucked me into this expensive hobby  :).  Allmost all subsequents KAT GBs, with centered legends did the same : a French kit available. Would they have done it without the initial biip move ? Maybe, maybe not. All I know is we are very grateful they did.  You see me coming I guess, your set could be the foundation of others sets to come ...

Edit: sorry wrong numbers for Space Cadet, they were not final. Updated below

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/ussxEIe.png)


Still bad for french, but It made better after with KAT Arctic !

Funny that we were doing some number crunching at the same time :)

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Adelscott on Fri, 05 June 2020, 11:21:13
So this really will be the first KAT set not offering French support ?

This potentially could sell even better than KAT Milkshake. In a perfect world, a mainstream colorway like yours could be available in stock in EU proxies at all times and sell regularly to new comers ...

@OP you replied to me on Reddit that "the numbers of french kits on previous GBs were too small",  I ear that. But did you consider that those who buy those kits also buy the others kits ? Could you go the extra mile like almost all other KAT designers ? Is that really complicated and time consuming to offer this "basic" kit ?  We are not asking for a second B or to split a kit in fifty ways to please some, we are just begging to exist.

KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

#ThisIsNotGMK #AzertyLivesMatter

I haven't made any hard choices yet between kits, so there's still hope  :cool:. Kits are still being changed often, I had a big change yesterday, and another one the day before. GB is still quite some time away and I am moving down the ladder and looking at priorities. I said the French kit is not looking very likely, and with Space Cadet selling 6 (!!) kits in total that is still true. In the order of things there are other kits that are more important and bigger groups of users that want to have their needs met first. It's just the way it is, hope you can understand that?

I understand, don't get me wrong, I know what it is to reply to dozens of requests, and I am paid for it, not doing it on my valuable spare time like you, so  :thumb: for you truly.

By the way, and I say it very humbly because the numbers of others GB are not huge : you took the worst run for French  :'( . Here the GBs I followed :

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/EcPPwib.png)


International and UK did the same low numbers as french in Space Cadet.

Last but not least, biip opened the way by integrating by default a french kit in KAT Milkshake. And I'm not gonna lie, that's what sucked me into this expensive hobby  :).  Allmost all subsequents KAT GBs, with centered legends did the same : a French kit available. Would they have done it without the initial biip move ? Maybe, maybe not. All I know is we are very grateful they did.  You see me coming I guess, your set could be the foundation of others sets to come ...

Edit: sorry wrong numbers for Space Cadet, they were not final. Updated below

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/ussxEIe.png)


Still bad for french, but It made better after with KAT Arctic !

Funny that we were doing some number crunching at the same time :)

Yes and you did the same mistake as I did : your Space Cadet numbers are not final numbers. That doesn't argue in french kit favor, but I'm honest :p

(https://i.imgur.com/2pBr4eS.png)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bl4ck on Fri, 05 June 2020, 11:35:57
And here I am ISO-PT user (language included in South kits) :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 11:42:08
So this really will be the first KAT set not offering French support ?

This potentially could sell even better than KAT Milkshake. In a perfect world, a mainstream colorway like yours could be available in stock in EU proxies at all times and sell regularly to new comers ...

@OP you replied to me on Reddit that "the numbers of french kits on previous GBs were too small",  I ear that. But did you consider that those who buy those kits also buy the others kits ? Could you go the extra mile like almost all other KAT designers ? Is that really complicated and time consuming to offer this "basic" kit ?  We are not asking for a second B or to split a kit in fifty ways to please some, we are just begging to exist.

KAT (along with KAM) with no specific MOQ is the only profile we have access to, please don't take that away from us ...

#ThisIsNotGMK #AzertyLivesMatter

I haven't made any hard choices yet between kits, so there's still hope  :cool:. Kits are still being changed often, I had a big change yesterday, and another one the day before. GB is still quite some time away and I am moving down the ladder and looking at priorities. I said the French kit is not looking very likely, and with Space Cadet selling 6 (!!) kits in total that is still true. In the order of things there are other kits that are more important and bigger groups of users that want to have their needs met first. It's just the way it is, hope you can understand that?

I understand, don't get me wrong, I know what it is to reply to dozens of requests, and I am paid for it, not doing it on my valuable spare time like you, so  :thumb: for you truly.

By the way, and I say it very humbly because the numbers of others GB are not huge : you took the worst run for French  :'( . Here the GBs I followed :

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/EcPPwib.png)


International and UK did the same low numbers as french in Space Cadet.

Last but not least, biip opened the way by integrating by default a french kit in KAT Milkshake. And I'm not gonna lie, that's what sucked me into this expensive hobby  :).  Allmost all subsequents KAT GBs, with centered legends did the same : a French kit available. Would they have done it without the initial biip move ? Maybe, maybe not. All I know is we are very grateful they did.  You see me coming I guess, your set could be the foundation of others sets to come ...

Edit: sorry wrong numbers for Space Cadet, they were not final. Updated below

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/ussxEIe.png)


Still bad for french, but It made better after with KAT Arctic !

Funny that we were doing some number crunching at the same time :)

Yes and you did the same mistake as I did : your Space Cadet numbers are not final numbers. That doesn't argue in french kit favor, but I'm honest :p

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/2pBr4eS.png)


Ah I will revise the post later then

And here I am ISO-PT user (language included in South kits) :)

My condolences  :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bl4ck on Fri, 05 June 2020, 11:43:47
And here I am ISO-PT user (language included in South kits) :)

My condolences  :D

No problem, I'm starting to get used to ISO-UK I guess
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 05 June 2020, 12:10:55
I updated the chart, it didn't change much to have the final Space Cadet numbers in there except UK jumped up quite a bit.

Worth noting is also that Ergo for instance was not offered in one of the sets, if it had been I think it could easily have been above 40s/Ortho. Also the Mac kit which sells pretty well actually, it was only offered in half of the sets so just by assuming it would have sold twice as well if it were offered, it would have been the 5th best selling kit. Not bad, and quite surprising.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 05 June 2020, 12:16:13
What do “US”, “UK”, “US/UK ISO” and “ISO” represent? It'd be nice to have some sort of visual representation.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ivu on Fri, 05 June 2020, 12:40:09
Would definitely get this one as i'm not really a fan of the big centered legends on all KAT sets so far tbh.

@MacSurfy, Any chance of adding 1u "`~" R4 key to the mod kits for split backspace 65% layouts? There's quite a big group of ppl using that layout, me included :)

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bonsa on Fri, 05 June 2020, 13:09:44
Really nice to see an overview of KAT orders. Thank you for taking the time to do this research.
I guess it's safe to say the ortho/40's kit can be made into 2 separate kits?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: bobdenard on Fri, 05 June 2020, 13:43:01
I updated the chart, it didn't change much to have the final Space Cadet numbers in there except UK jumped up quite a bit.

Worth noting is also that Ergo for instance was not offered in one of the sets, if it had been I think it could easily have been above 40s/Ortho. Also the Mac kit which sells pretty well actually, it was only offered in half of the sets so just by assuming it would have sold twice as well if it were offered, it would have been the 5th best selling kit. Not bad, and quite surprising.
That’s a great job compiling all that data, interesting.

And I’m one those weird dudes that will be buying French AND Mac kits :)

Anyway, not really surprising about Mac, a lot of designers, coders... use Macs nowadays, and we like shiny new keycaps just as much as the next guy.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Sterenke on Fri, 05 June 2020, 21:34:07
I'm missing some keys in the 40s kit for compatibility on my keyboards:
R3 1u Delete
R2 1.25u Control

And in 'extra mods' I want to request R1 Super key in 1.25u size
It looks like you have three win keys in 1.25u size in 'extra mods' - do we need more winkeys?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: note on Fri, 05 June 2020, 22:04:07
Definitely interested in this set!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ullr on Fri, 05 June 2020, 23:46:21
Looks ace, I'd like to see a render with all white and text mods
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: GSV-CargoCult on Sat, 06 June 2020, 03:46:28
Totally relived to see this! I've had GMK Stockholm syndrome for a while now. I love all the bright colorways, but this BoW set just looks so damn fresh and clean! Amazing job!

Just to wade in on the international sets... The main reason I feel stuck with GMK is that the base generally always includes UK ISO. SA kits tend to bundle Nordeuk which makes them even more expensive.

I'd imagine (I don't have the numbers) that sets with combined Nordeuk kits generally sell less (international) sets when compared to split sets? That would be interesting to see 😊

(Here comes the emotional blackmail😉)

I bequeath you OP, give us weird ISO klackers freedom and see you European Brothers and Sisters as individual cultures!

TLDR: please could you consider splitting out a UK ISO kit?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: forevermadrigal on Sat, 06 June 2020, 04:57:46
I was waiting for the KAT set to make me say YES, I'M IN and it looks like it has arrived. Super excited to see how these legends turn out. I see there is a r1 1.5 fn key in the ortho kit, is there any way to add that to the the extra mods kit? It adds some flexibility to WKL users :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Sat, 06 June 2020, 05:18:44
IMPORTANT STATEMENT REGARDING KAT

Yesterday started so well with the TC episode and the great feedback from the community, but ended in the worst possible way. I wanted to react immediately in my GH thread, but decided to at least sleep on it and think about how to approach this before writing anything in anger. There is a right way, and a wrong way. The wrong way would be to not react at all and pretend everything is fine and cash in on your purchases and move on to the next project. I feel I can't do that, and at this point I am questioning the whole project.

Photos started surfacing from a recently delivered KAT set yesterday evening and what I saw was less than pleasing to put it mildly. Horrifying is maybe a better word. Legends are poorly aligned, and the caps are of the wrong size, or the stems might be positioned wrong. This causes some caps to be very close, and I am hearing they are even touching sometimes and in other cases just create a lot of weird gaps and uneven row endings.

I want to make it very clear: This is not that specific set designers fault. So please do not attack him. This is a QC issue and a mold issue.

Fact is that I had noticed the issue with the caps before, and contacted the manufactorer about it. They said it was the first time they heard of such a thing but agreed that I was correct and something was indeed wrong. They are looking at the issue, at least that was what was promised to me. But wether any changes will be made is yet to be seen and as long as I am the only one complaining then it's a hard battle since it is so expensive to replace the molds. They have been nothing but great to me in our correspondence so far and listen to my feedback. I am not attacking them either but we have issues and I think they need to be dealt with for KAT to be great.

Misalignment issues can be solved. It's a human error but it also means each set will be delivered with a drum roll that either falls flat on its face or come out as intended. I don't like that variable and I think we need to aim for consistency and better QC. For KAT Refined specifically I have zero margins for errors.


Next steps

I can not push for this alone, and I hope by now other designers of current sets in IC's or sets that are about to be produced will heave heard about this and will push for a change. If not, you are a part of the problem and you can't point fingers once your sets have been delivered and your buyers are angry/unhappy.

For KAT Refined my immediate reaction was to abort the whole project but after sleeping on it I want to help (with your help) fix the issues, but I might put it on hold while it happens. I simply can't let this happen to my set and I hope other designers feel the same way. If there is no change, there will be no Refined.

To be continued....


Edit: as more and more people get their sets we'll see if this is a widespread issue or not. Also I don't have it in my hands so just judging from what owners are saying and their photos.


(https://i.imgur.com/Gasqjv9.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/KiBhe2n.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/kBxG8NO.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200606/a939d7d0abda0ce7ff140dd87c595190.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Hell-es on Sat, 06 June 2020, 05:56:22
Thanks for the update.

If you have faith in KAT and Keyreative, I think it makes sense to proceed with IC and Kit Design etc. - but if you feel that this is a waste of time then just put it on hold.

If QC is done right, and after some first impression from KAT users, the profile really has potential the get a big market share - and this design for WoB and BoW really looks like a big classic.

So would be a shame if it would not happen - but you‘re right - it deserves perfection.

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Sat, 06 June 2020, 06:38:01
Thanks for the update.

If you have faith in KAT and Keyreative, I think it makes sense to proceed with IC and Kit Design etc. - but if you feel that this is a waste of time then just put it on hold.

If QC is done right, and after some first impression from KAT users, the profile really has potential the get a big market share - and this design for WoB and BoW really looks like a big classic.

So would be a shame if it would not happen - but you‘re right - it deserves perfection.

I have faith in them and I will probably continue to develop the set regardless. I want to make sure we have something in case we have progress on the physical caps but my motivation sort of vanished. KAT Eternal is coming out soon, it's looking great and I am very curious to see how it turns out.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bl4ck on Sat, 06 June 2020, 06:40:27
Thanks for the update.

If you have faith in KAT and Keyreative, I think it makes sense to proceed with IC and Kit Design etc. - but if you feel that this is a waste of time then just put it on hold.

If QC is done right, and after some first impression from KAT users, the profile really has potential the get a big market share - and this design for WoB and BoW really looks like a big classic.

So would be a shame if it would not happen - but you‘re right - it deserves perfection.

I have faith in them and I will probably continue to develop the set regardless. I want to make sure we have something in case we have progress on the physical caps but my motivation sort of vanished. KAT Eternal is coming out soon, it's looking great and I am very curious to see how it turns out.

And eternal would give an idea of the reverse dye-sub quality.

Also. I would guess that for milkshake and eternal the problems you referred would probably not be fixed because If I remember correctly they should already be in production before you pointed out those problems to Keyreative I would assume.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: hottrout on Sat, 06 June 2020, 06:42:35
Now that KAT WoB GB has been halted, this GB is important.  I will be buying both WoB and BoW, full sets, with ISO & UK & Numpad.  Please make this happen.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Shikada on Sat, 06 June 2020, 11:20:19
Now that KAT WoB GB has been halted, this GB is important.  I will be buying both WoB and BoW, full sets, with ISO & UK & Numpad.  Please make this happen.

Would you still buy it if it had all of the above mentioned issues? I know we kinda accept a lot of crap in this hobby sometimes, but at least trying to be a responsible buyer will go a long way in improving this hobby.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: psxndc on Sat, 06 June 2020, 14:36:03
Now I'm scared to mount my Milkshakes. I'm normally pretty oblivious and probably wouldn't have noticed anything. Now I'll be looking for it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: hkhawk on Sat, 06 June 2020, 15:00:00
Holy moly, I just learned about this on Top Clack and am so impressed with all of the hard work and thought that went into this! Amazing work!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MasterTi on Sat, 06 June 2020, 20:28:51
Definitely going to purchase this. Hope the manufacturer sorts out the current issues
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Alpacacino on Sat, 06 June 2020, 22:12:10
Yes please!  I need me a set of white caps.  God knows when Minimal R2 will happen.  I need this NOW!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: yenel on Sun, 07 June 2020, 00:12:12
I’ve been curious about the KAT profile ever since it was released. Heard good things about the typing experience and sound but I could just never get past the legends. As with most sculpted profiles the legends are really big, centered and seem less thought out than GMK/Cherry.
... I thought that perhaps there are more people like me out there, who are annoyed with GMK icons/legends but can’t find a good alternative. Or people who are willing to try a more sculpted profile but just can’t see themselves using centered legends/icons.

Thank you for outlining the exact reasons for why I shy away from DSA/SA/etc. sets. I'm not sure if it's a psychological thing, but something about the look of Cherry icons/legends is just more pleasing than centered ones imo. The way you've detailed some of GMK's icon/legend problems and how you changed them also solves some of the problems I've had with GMK icon/legends and more. I'll definitely be watching this IC with great interest.

KAT sets so far have avoided tertiary (and cuaternary) legends because "KAT spherical, like SA" and "non centered looks bad on SA", and this is a point that needs to be tested: will corner-aligned legends look proper in KAT keycaps or not? (followed by will the necessarily thinner lines in those glyphs look fine?)

Tangentially, although they are in different languages, looking at how MT3 Serika Katakana (https://twitter.com/zambumon/status/1229469342343073792) and SA Laser Cyberdeck (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/fihcfi/destroy_them_with_sa_laser/) (yeah SA R3, but I wouldn't completely write it off) have turned out, I'd venture to say corner-aligned legends in KAT won't look bad and are definitely worth being tested. I'm not sure about others, whether they're in it for the WoB/BoW colorway or KAT kitting, but the entire reason I'll be following this project is because of the legends.
GL OP - hoping the situation turns out for the better.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: thelaughingman on Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:11:32
Topclack brought me to this IC. Really appreciate all the work you've done thus far but completely understand if you abort the project in it current iteration with KAT.

I owned the KAT Alpha set from the initial GB and KAT is now my 2nd favourite profile with MT3 at #1 and Cherry (specifically GMK) at #3. Loved the texture and the sound of KAT profile but could not get into the dye-sub legend of that set. There were a lot of highly visible inconsistencies that even I noticed, let alone a designer with a focus like yours. Definitely agree it's a manufacturing issue so let's see if they can fix/improve the quality of the dye-sub.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: robrobro on Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:35:10
I really love the attention to detail in this set. A must but for me just for the typographic craft.

However, all that work will be wasted if the manufacturer doesn’t share your focus on quality and consistency. As it stands I’m hesitant about joining any KAT GB until some assurances are made.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Vireca on Sun, 07 June 2020, 04:35:00
Sometimes I think the designers just want to get the money and move on without dealing with problems but you come here and explain all and want to fix it. Thanks MacSurfy, this means a lot for me and the community. We can't keep ignoring these problems on keysets and I hope all the KAT/KAM designers make an effort to ix the problem with Keyreative
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Sun, 07 June 2020, 07:26:18
Any chance of adding 1u "`~" R4 key to the mod kits for split backspace 65% layouts? There's quite a big group of ppl using that layout, me included :)

It is already in the alpha kit  ;)

Sometimes I think the designers just want to get the money and move on without dealing with problems but you come here and explain all and want to fix it. Thanks MacSurfy, this means a lot for me and the community. We can't keep ignoring these problems on keysets and I hope all the KAT/KAM designers make an effort to ix the problem with Keyreative

Thank you! Let's hope it makes a difference.

I really love the attention to detail in this set. A must but for me just for the typographic craft.

However, all that work will be wasted if the manufacturer doesn’t share your focus on quality and consistency. As it stands I’m hesitant about joining any KAT GB until some assurances are made.

Agreed. I feel the same. I am in good spirits so I hope this will be resolved. GB date (not revealed yet) still stands until I say otherwise so we're moving forward but I probably won't make any updates for a while.

Topclack brought me to this IC. Really appreciate all the work you've done thus far but completely understand if you abort the project in it current iteration with KAT.

I owned the KAT Alpha set from the initial GB and KAT is now my 2nd favourite profile with MT3 at #1 and Cherry (specifically GMK) at #3. Loved the texture and the sound of KAT profile but could not get into the dye-sub legend of that set. There were a lot of highly visible inconsistencies that even I noticed, let alone a designer with a focus like yours. Definitely agree it's a manufacturing issue so let's see if they can fix/improve the quality of the dye-sub.

Thank you for outlining the exact reasons for why I shy away from DSA/SA/etc. sets. I'm not sure if it's a psychological thing, but something about the look of Cherry icons/legends is just more pleasing than centered ones imo. The way you've detailed some of GMK's icon/legend problems and how you changed them also solves some of the problems I've had with GMK icon/legends and more. I'll definitely be watching this IC with great interest.

Yes please!  I need me a set of white caps.  God knows when Minimal R2 will happen.  I need this NOW!

Definitely going to purchase this. Hope the manufacturer sorts out the current issues

Holy moly, I just learned about this on Top Clack and am so impressed with all of the hard work and thought that went into this! Amazing work!

Thank u for the support!  :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ivu on Sun, 07 June 2020, 08:19:59
Any chance of adding 1u "`~" R4 key to the mod kits for split backspace 65% layouts? There's quite a big group of ppl using that layout, me included :)

It is already in the alpha kit  ;)


Yeah, my idea was mostly for having a mixed black mods and white alphas for example.
In order to achieve the color setup from the attached picture, i would have to get also white alphas for that key or to be left with a bit asymmetrical top row :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: danieljgrouse on Sun, 07 June 2020, 08:42:13
I love the amount of effort that went into this, the set looks great. All the changes are just enough to not only fix the issues with GMK but also make it feel familiar yet more fresh than GMK. This set is an instant classic. One thing I would love to see are light grey accents - something that would go with the BoW, WoB, and combined versions while adding some more variety and visual interest.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Pyk_ on Sun, 07 June 2020, 22:23:06
Good luck with this, obviously such a precise set would need to be accurately reproduced. I assumed most will be happy with waiting if needed.

As for the actual set, I’m happy with ortho being text mods (I actually prefer this), but why are the arrows icons while everything else is text? Is this just how GMK is when it comes to ortho? Sorry, I’m a bit of a noob especially when it comes to GMK, but it seems a bit odd to me.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: desmotyping on Sun, 07 June 2020, 23:03:17
I know this thread has moved on but I wanted to make a comment on some of the kits that seem to sell in smaller numbers- like some of the language kits or the Colevrak set that I'd be interested in.  Forgive me if it's something that's pretty obvious but I was concerned it was getting lost in all the numbers counting.  That's the fact that even when numbers seem small these kits drive the sale of other kits in the group by.  A person missing out on a Mac set or some novelties might still buy into the set but someone looking for language support is far less likely to buy it and someone who wants Colevrak probably won't at all.  With that in mind each of those Colevrak kits probably represents the sale of at least 3-4 other kits in the buy.  So a worst case 15 Colevrak kit sales might actually add, say, 60 kits when you consider everything else that person will purchase in the set, including the mandatory Alphas since having Colevrak alone isn't enough.

I can say in my case that the presence of Colevrak in a set will motivate me to buy it and I really won't purchase it, no matter how great it is, without it.  I'd be remiss if I didn't say that this set looks amazing so I'm very much hoping will see Colevrak for it. 
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: vsrnth on Sun, 07 June 2020, 23:04:51
I know this thread has moved on but I wanted to make a comment on some of the kits that seem to sell in smaller numbers- like some of the language kits or the Colevrak set that I'd be interested in.  Forgive me if it's something that's pretty obvious but I was concerned it was getting lost in all the numbers counting.  That's the fact that even when numbers seem small these kits drive the sale of other kits in the group by.  A person missing out on a Mac set or some novelties might still buy into the set but someone looking for language support is far less likely to buy it and someone who wants Colevrak probably won't at all.  With that in mind each of those Colevrak kits probably represents the sale of at least 3-4 other kits in the buy.  So a worst case 15 Colevrak kit sales might actually add, say, 60 kits when you consider everything else that person will purchase in the set, including the mandatory Alphas since having Colevrak alone isn't enough.

I can say in my case that the presence of Colevrak in a set will motivate me to buy it and I really won't purchase it, no matter how great it is, without it.  I'd be remiss if I didn't say that this set looks amazing so I'm very much hoping will see Colevrak for it.
This

Colevrak please.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 08 June 2020, 12:21:49
I have been in contact with the manufacturer of KAT today and I'm very happy about how they are handling the current situation. They are doing their best to fix what is wrong for the customers that received scuffed caps/legends and will make sure that it doesn't happen again in the future.

Hopefully the upcoming sets won't have these issues but I will monitor that closely.

So for now the show goes on!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Emir on Mon, 08 June 2020, 17:00:16
Just popped back in since launch and wow, what a properly ran IC!

Huge props to maccie!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Alpacacino on Mon, 08 June 2020, 19:07:41
Total noob here, but I don't see the link to the IC form anywhere?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: JagdPietr on Mon, 08 June 2020, 20:46:49
I'm at a loss for words, except that

I'm really in

GLWIC!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: thelaughingman on Mon, 08 June 2020, 21:49:27
I have been in contact with the manufacturer of KAT today and I'm very happy about how they are handling the current situation. They are doing their best to fix what is wrong for the customers that received scuffed caps/legends and will make sure that it doesn't happen again in the future.

Hopefully the upcoming sets won't have these issues but I will monitor that closely.

So for now the show goes on!
that is great to hear! make sure you have a really tight grip on the protoypes, either super-zoomed in detailed pictures or have the prototypes in hand yourself. Just observing the trouble Matt3o has with Susuwatari protoyping process made me appreciate the work you guys do so much more.

here's to hoping the manufacturer can pull through!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: macclack on Mon, 08 June 2020, 22:42:25
On the Mac Kit would you consider adding more function keys up to F19?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Tue, 09 June 2020, 08:22:52
On the Mac Kit would you consider adding more function keys up to F19?

I get F13–F15, but I've never seen F16–F19 used on a Mac keyboard. What do you need those keys for?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: macclack on Tue, 09 June 2020, 08:30:06
On the Mac Kit would you consider adding more function keys up to F19?

I get F13–F15, but I've never seen F16–F19 used on a Mac keyboard. What do you need those keys for?

https://en.varmilo.com/keyboardproscenium/subject_product_detailed?subjectid=112
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Tue, 09 June 2020, 08:37:16
https://en.varmilo.com/keyboardproscenium/subject_product_detailed?subjectid=112

Thanks for the reference.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Ennead on Tue, 09 June 2020, 18:30:03
Beautiful, I'd be down for both BoW and WoB.

If I could just request a small addition to the Nordeu kits, it would be to add the two caps marked in yellow, they'd make the kit fully Estonian-compliant (even if I'm probably the only one here to benefit from this :D) Many other KAT sets have included these in their North kits, so here's hoping :)

All the best!

(https://i.imgur.com/tAWZlSq.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: nguyenhimself on Wed, 10 June 2020, 02:11:27
On the Mac Kit would you consider adding more function keys up to F19?
From another Mac user: Please either add those keys to the F-row kit, or not at all.
Sub-TKL builds are way more popular these days. If someone already skips the F-row kit, what would they need F16-19 for? Seems wasteful.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Wed, 10 June 2020, 02:23:58
On the Mac Kit would you consider adding more function keys up to F19?
From another Mac user: Please either add those keys to the F-row kit, or not at all.
Sub-TKL builds are way more popular these days. If someone already skips the F-row kit, what would they need F16-19 for? Seems wasteful.

Good point. It does add quite a few extra keys for what seems a very small group.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kgorin on Wed, 10 June 2020, 04:39:54
Since we're changing traditions here, on mac keyboards underscore is vertically aligned with + which I think looks excellent and balances the key quite a bit. I bet not many people realise that it is underscore that's above the minus, not vice versa considering that there is a + sign on the right, so I think not going "by the book" with underscore makes a lot of sense.

(https://images.tech.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/22065115/macbook-kb.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: macclack on Wed, 10 June 2020, 07:49:34
On the Mac Kit would you consider adding more function keys up to F19?
From another Mac user: Please either add those keys to the F-row kit, or not at all.
Sub-TKL builds are way more popular these days. If someone already skips the F-row kit, what would they need F16-19 for? Seems wasteful.

Good point. It does add quite a few extra keys for what seems a very small group.

That could be a good solution, or they could be broken out into a separate kit. It's six additional keys. Since it's Keyreative, there's no MOQ on individual keys or kits, right? I know this would add complexity by adding another SKU but I think it would be cool for some Mac users since it's basically never offered. Another benefit could be for TKL Mac users allowing them to use F13, F14 and F15 rather than Print, Pause and Num Lock since those functions don't exist.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Wed, 10 June 2020, 10:07:31
Since we're changing traditions here, on mac keyboards underscore is vertically aligned with + which I think looks excellent and balances the key quite a bit. I bet not many people realise that it is underscore that's above the minus, not vice versa considering that there is a + sign on the right, so I think not going "by the book" with underscore makes a lot of sense.

Show Image
(https://images.tech.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/22065115/macbook-kb.jpg)


I am a little bit confused about what you are saying, or maybe I am just misinterpreting you.

Having the underscore center height aligned with the plus sign is exactly what makes it hard to understand. Is it a minus symbol or an underscore? GMK/Cherry actually has the underscore in the correct place so not sure why it needs to be less understandable by moving it up? It makes no sense to me, but please correct me if I misunderstood your request  ;)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Zeelobby on Wed, 10 June 2020, 18:10:55


Since we're changing traditions here, on mac keyboards underscore is vertically aligned with + which I think looks excellent and balances the key quite a bit. I bet not many people realise that it is underscore that's above the minus, not vice versa considering that there is a + sign on the right, so I think not going "by the book" with underscore makes a lot of sense.

Show Image
(https://images.tech.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/22065115/macbook-kb.jpg)


I am a little bit confused about what you are saying, or maybe I am just misinterpreting you.

Having the underscore center height aligned with the plus sign is exactly what makes it hard to understand. Is it a minus symbol or an underscore? GMK/Cherry actually has the underscore in the correct place so not sure why it needs to be less understandable by moving it up? It makes no sense to me, but please correct me if I misunderstood your request  ;)

Hey now. Mac layouts are all about less understandable. Clearly it's what the people want!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: scoopbb on Wed, 10 June 2020, 23:38:16
spacebars kit would be nice
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kgorin on Fri, 12 June 2020, 11:02:46
I am a little bit confused about what you are saying, or maybe I am just misinterpreting you.

Having the underscore center height aligned with the plus sign is exactly what makes it hard to understand. Is it a minus symbol or an underscore? GMK/Cherry actually has the underscore in the correct place so not sure why it needs to be less understandable by moving it up? It makes no sense to me, but please correct me if I misunderstood your request  ;)


What I mean is that in my opinion no one cares if it's an underscore or a minus there, I for one was for a longest time thinking that the upper symbol was a minus (since plus is also an upper legend). The reason I was not actually bothered by that is I know that it's a dash and it's an underscore when pressed with shift without really looking at legends.

Let's put it bluntly, I am offering to sacrifice "correctness" to visual appearance :)

I understand if no one cares for that, but I gotta try :D GMK legends just don't look good from the aesthetical standpoint IMO
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: TacoTypes on Fri, 12 June 2020, 11:09:53
I don't know if you've already come to a conclusion on this but I wish you could make an alpha kit with the f row keys or at least a dual-color f row kit like the one in the render. Imo its seems kinda extra to take the time to make a kit only for the f row... I don't know if I'm just being nooby but it just doesn't seem all that necessary...


Edit: Please tell me if I'm being stupid or just correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: NoPunIn10Did on Fri, 12 June 2020, 14:07:11
I don't know if you've already come to a conclusion on this but I wish you could make an alpha kit with the f row keys or at least a dual-color f row kit like the one in the render. Imo its seems kinda extra to take the time to make a kit only for the f row... I don't know if I'm just being nooby but it just doesn't seem all that necessary...


Edit: Please tell me if I'm being stupid or just correct me if I'm wrong.

For KAT, there is a downside to having too many SKUs, but outside of that, breaking out something like an F-row can be a net positive for common keyboard users. 

Adding them to the alphas would increase the price of that kit for everybody, even those who don't use F-keys.  If the designer really needs to decrease total SKU count, they should add the F-rows into one of the sets supporting TKL and other row-staggered layouts.

Most alpha kits that include F-row kits are intended as alternatives to the default alphas, rather than here where there are two true core alpha kits.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Techichi on Sat, 13 June 2020, 10:17:19
I would be in for the black for sure...maybe both.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: depletedvespene on Sat, 13 June 2020, 16:21:58
Since we're changing traditions here, on mac keyboards underscore is vertically aligned with + which I think looks excellent and balances the key quite a bit. I bet not many people realise that it is underscore that's above the minus, not vice versa considering that there is a + sign on the right, so I think not going "by the book" with underscore makes a lot of sense.

Show Image
(https://images.tech.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/22065115/macbook-kb.jpg)


I am a little bit confused about what you are saying, or maybe I am just misinterpreting you.

Having the underscore center height aligned with the plus sign is exactly what makes it hard to understand. Is it a minus symbol or an underscore? GMK/Cherry actually has the underscore in the correct place so not sure why it needs to be less understandable by moving it up? It makes no sense to me, but please correct me if I misunderstood your request  ;)

Wait, wait, wait... is it NOT an em dash? —  :cool:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: loof on Sun, 14 June 2020, 12:55:19
I would really appreciate an R2 backslash in the international kit for US ISO compatibility. Otherwise I would have to buy the whole ortho kit just for one key.
They did so with modern dolch 2.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: glances on Sun, 14 June 2020, 13:55:47
100% in either way, but I'm really hoping for full icon mods instead of text based for Control, Code, and Alt (and maybe even Fn), since those are already offered in other kits.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: TacoTypes on Mon, 15 June 2020, 11:29:12
I don't know if you've already come to a conclusion on this but I wish you could make an alpha kit with the f row keys or at least a dual-color f row kit like the one in the render. Imo its seems kinda extra to take the time to make a kit only for the f row... I don't know if I'm just being nooby but it just doesn't seem all that necessary...


Edit: Please tell me if I'm being stupid or just correct me if I'm wrong.

For KAT, there is a downside to having too many SKUs, but outside of that, breaking out something like an F-row can be a net positive for common keyboard users. 

Adding them to the alphas would increase the price of that kit for everybody, even those who don't use F-keys.  If the designer really needs to decrease total SKU count, they should add the F-rows into one of the sets supporting TKL and other row-staggered layouts.

Most alpha kits that include F-row kits are intended as alternatives to the default alphas, rather than here where there are two true core alpha kits.

Okay so a second alpha kit with an f row is a no go. But can we get a dual-color f row so that you wouldn't have to buy both f rows just so you can have them set up like the one shown in the renders?

Thanks for any help I know I'm being nooby. :p
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 15 June 2020, 12:55:51
I don't know if you've already come to a conclusion on this but I wish you could make an alpha kit with the f row keys or at least a dual-color f row kit like the one in the render. Imo its seems kinda extra to take the time to make a kit only for the f row... I don't know if I'm just being nooby but it just doesn't seem all that necessary...


Edit: Please tell me if I'm being stupid or just correct me if I'm wrong.

For KAT, there is a downside to having too many SKUs, but outside of that, breaking out something like an F-row can be a net positive for common keyboard users. 

Adding them to the alphas would increase the price of that kit for everybody, even those who don't use F-keys.  If the designer really needs to decrease total SKU count, they should add the F-rows into one of the sets supporting TKL and other row-staggered layouts.

Most alpha kits that include F-row kits are intended as alternatives to the default alphas, rather than here where there are two true core alpha kits.

Okay so a second alpha kit with an f row is a no go. But can we get a dual-color f row so that you wouldn't have to buy both f rows just so you can have them set up like the one shown in the renders?

Thanks for any help I know I'm being nooby. :p

That is also a no go  ;). The whole point with running dual colorways is that people can mix and match if they want to, not force it on them. The function row kit will likely be pretty cheap so buying both shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise I'd have to offer BoW, WoB and TWO mixed sets (depending on which one u choose for mods). It seems pretty unreasonable imho.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Slayer77 on Mon, 15 June 2020, 13:06:13
I don't know if you've already come to a conclusion on this but I wish you could make an alpha kit with the f row keys or at least a dual-color f row kit like the one in the render. Imo its seems kinda extra to take the time to make a kit only for the f row... I don't know if I'm just being nooby but it just doesn't seem all that necessary...


Edit: Please tell me if I'm being stupid or just correct me if I'm wrong.

For KAT, there is a downside to having too many SKUs, but outside of that, breaking out something like an F-row can be a net positive for common keyboard users. 

Adding them to the alphas would increase the price of that kit for everybody, even those who don't use F-keys.  If the designer really needs to decrease total SKU count, they should add the F-rows into one of the sets supporting TKL and other row-staggered layouts.

Most alpha kits that include F-row kits are intended as alternatives to the default alphas, rather than here where there are two true core alpha kits.

Okay so a second alpha kit with an f row is a no go. But can we get a dual-color f row so that you wouldn't have to buy both f rows just so you can have them set up like the one shown in the renders?

Thanks for any help I know I'm being nooby.

That is also a no go  ;). The whole point with running dual colorways is that people can mix and match if they want to, not force it on them. The function row kit will likely be pretty cheap so buying both shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise I'd have to offer BoW, WoB and TWO mixed sets (depending on which one u choose for mods). It seems pretty unreasonable imho.
Nooo! What happened to hhkb kits! C'mon man :(

Sent from my GM1911 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Mekberg on Tue, 16 June 2020, 02:58:08
Kits look really awesome now. Only thing for me (and I totally get if you don't want this) is it would be nice to have the 1.5u "System" in the basekit, or just anything 1.5u R1 that isn't just Control and Alt. For WKL boards having Ctrl/Alt and Alt/Win is a nice layout, and having just any other label on a single key in the basekit would solve having to buy a whole other kit just for that one different key.

But other than that I can't really complain. Looks like it's easier to make a HHKB layout now and I basically would only have to get the base kit and NorDe to cover most of my existing or planned boards.

Hmm... that said, would you consider breaking out space bars into their own kit? Right now, anyone with any kind of split that isn't ortho would have to get the entire ortho kit just to have spacebar caps. That feels a bit over the top. Yes, again, looking to my own future purchase of the Kendo... :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: pointlessone on Tue, 16 June 2020, 15:09:29
Please add Ergodox Kit and maybe mac icon modifiers
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Lazy_Borzoi on Tue, 16 June 2020, 18:51:49
Very interesting set but I can't get over the arrow keys. Those offset arrows look ... off.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: glances on Wed, 17 June 2020, 15:14:18
Very interesting set but I can't get over the arrow keys. Those offset arrows look ... off.

You have a GMK set in your signature that also has offset arrows. How do you feel about those?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: IvernTheTree on Wed, 17 June 2020, 17:42:23
This is a noob question cuz I am new to this hobby but how can I get into this Groupbuy?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Techichi on Wed, 17 June 2020, 17:59:44
This is a noob question cuz I am new to this hobby but how can I get into this Groupbuy?

This is the interest check thread. Eventually they will link us to the group buy thread. From there they will inform us on how to join the group buy.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: blaqbern on Wed, 17 June 2020, 21:31:32
I really like the look of an all WOB board with BOW escape and enter. Would you consider adding an accent kit so folks could add just a few accent keys of the opposite color?
Maybe something like: Esc plus some/all variants of Enter, ISO Enter and numpad Enter.
The kits are really shaping up nicely!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Mekanist on Wed, 17 June 2020, 22:14:20
Im definitely in for this, but I have to say, the arrow keys seem kinda big.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: stoffelduss on Thu, 18 June 2020, 03:26:27
I thought I had already posted this but can't find it in my posts; the numbers on the number row look too small and this looks especially bad next to the tertiary legends and ß in the NorDe kit.

Also, have you made up your mind on if you're going to include Colevrak+?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: bananasplit_00 on Thu, 18 June 2020, 05:22:48
I thought I had already posted this but can't find it in my posts; the numbers on the number row look too small and this looks especially bad next to the tertiary legends and ß in the NorDe kit.

Also, have you made up your mind on if you're going to include Colevrak+?

had to take a look after you pointed it out and now i wish i had never read this comment  :-X

numrow numbers could really use being a little bigger or the other icons on the keys a little smaller, either one would work imo.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: esmtll on Fri, 19 June 2020, 08:51:43
Please add Ergodox Kit and maybe mac icon modifiers
Two for Mac Icon Mods. This would allow an all-icon modifier set with the Icon Mods sets for Mac users (who are more likely to want icon mods on their bottom row).

You don’t even need a second Mac set. I’d be happy to spend the money for both icons and text in the Mac set.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: LZRD on Fri, 19 June 2020, 22:23:49
Any chance we'll see an opposite colour tilde key with the alpha kits?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: sstadler06 on Sat, 20 June 2020, 02:45:32
Hell yeah, I'm in for a bow set. I feel like I prefer the mods with text and images
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: bobdenard on Sat, 20 June 2020, 02:57:56
Please add Ergodox Kit and maybe mac icon modifiers
Two for Mac Icon Mods. This would allow an all-icon modifier set with the Icon Mods sets for Mac users (who are more likely to want icon mods on their bottom row).

You don’t even need a second Mac set. I’d be happy to spend the money for both icons and text in the Mac set.
I second that.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: afluffybubble on Sat, 20 June 2020, 04:14:22
Heya!

For the OCE vendor, would it be possible to see Daily Clack! :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Sat, 20 June 2020, 06:23:15
Please add Ergodox Kit and maybe mac icon modifiers
Two for Mac Icon Mods. This would allow an all-icon modifier set with the Icon Mods sets for Mac users (who are more likely to want icon mods on their bottom row).

You don’t even need a second Mac set. I’d be happy to spend the money for both icons and text in the Mac set.
I second that.


Please add Ergodox Kit and maybe mac icon modifiers
Two for Mac Icon Mods. This would allow an all-icon modifier set with the Icon Mods sets for Mac users (who are more likely to want icon mods on their bottom row).

You don’t even need a second Mac set. I’d be happy to spend the money for both icons and text in the Mac set.

Ergo and Mac mod icons are coming. Added in the todo list  ;)

Heya!

For the OCE vendor, would it be possible to see Daily Clack! :D

Quite possible. Have not looked in to it yet but I will check with them.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Sun, 21 June 2020, 15:24:30
Any chance we'll see an opposite colour tilde key with the alpha kits?

Wouldn't that make more sense as part of a mod kit? That being said, I too would like to see a `~ option, namely in the mod kits.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Bl4ck on Sun, 21 June 2020, 16:39:38
Please add Ergodox Kit and maybe mac icon modifiers
Two for Mac Icon Mods. This would allow an all-icon modifier set with the Icon Mods sets for Mac users (who are more likely to want icon mods on their bottom row).

You don’t even need a second Mac set. I’d be happy to spend the money for both icons and text in the Mac set.
I second that.


Please add Ergodox Kit and maybe mac icon modifiers
Two for Mac Icon Mods. This would allow an all-icon modifier set with the Icon Mods sets for Mac users (who are more likely to want icon mods on their bottom row).

You don’t even need a second Mac set. I’d be happy to spend the money for both icons and text in the Mac set.

Ergo and Mac mod icons are coming. Added in the todo list  ;)

does this mean we also get icon mods for non-mac users? I believe theres also demand for that, and wouldn't make sense to include only 1 of them
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Yoshi on Mon, 22 June 2020, 08:04:05
Heya!

For the OCE vendor, would it be possible to see Daily Clack! :D

^^
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 22 June 2020, 09:23:52
Heya!

For the OCE vendor, would it be possible to see Daily Clack! :D

Heya!

For the OCE vendor, would it be possible to see Daily Clack! :D

^^

Done  ;)

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ISOxSwap on Mon, 22 June 2020, 12:35:57
I'm so stoked about this kits!

And for desk mats I think your GH Logo would work great in both BoW & WoB!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: timescam on Mon, 22 June 2020, 21:19:25
any change for a colevrak kit?
pretty pls
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: TacoTypes on Tue, 23 June 2020, 09:56:06
I don't know if you've already come to a conclusion on this but I wish you could make an alpha kit with the f row keys or at least a dual-color f row kit like the one in the render. Imo its seems kinda extra to take the time to make a kit only for the f row... I don't know if I'm just being nooby but it just doesn't seem all that necessary...


Edit: Please tell me if I'm being stupid or just correct me if I'm wrong.

For KAT, there is a downside to having too many SKUs, but outside of that, breaking out something like an F-row can be a net positive for common keyboard users. 

Adding them to the alphas would increase the price of that kit for everybody, even those who don't use F-keys.  If the designer really needs to decrease total SKU count, they should add the F-rows into one of the sets supporting TKL and other row-staggered layouts.

Most alpha kits that include F-row kits are intended as alternatives to the default alphas, rather than here where there are two true core alpha kits.

Okay so a second alpha kit with an f row is a no go. But can we get a dual-color f row so that you wouldn't have to buy both f rows just so you can have them set up like the one shown in the renders?

Thanks for any help I know I'm being nooby. :p

That is also a no go  ;). The whole point with running dual colorways is that people can mix and match if they want to, not force it on them. The function row kit will likely be pretty cheap so buying both shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise I'd have to offer BoW, WoB and TWO mixed sets (depending on which one u choose for mods). It seems pretty unreasonable imho.

Two more things. Can we get a 1.5u \ key in the alphas? I feel it would be a waste to have to buy a whole separate mod set for one key... And is it possible to get a 6.25u spacebar in the alphas? I'm pretty sure every other KAT kit has had a spacebar in the alphas and I don't see why this set shouldn't have one either.

Please again. Tell me if I've been misled.
 
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: jubei on Tue, 23 June 2020, 13:08:08
Can’t wait for GB. Happen to know ETA for release? Thanks
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: lamonayon on Tue, 23 June 2020, 14:02:00
Hi All! Do we have an estimate timeline at the moment for the KAT Refined?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 23 June 2020, 15:05:19

Two more things. Can we get a 1.5u \ key in the alphas? I feel it would be a waste to have to buy a whole separate mod set for one key... And is it possible to get a 6.25u spacebar in the alphas? I'm pretty sure every other KAT kit has had a spacebar in the alphas and I don't see why this set shouldn't have one either.

Please again. Tell me if I've been misled.

KAT Space Cadet doesn't have space in alphas ;)

Thank you for your suggestions though, I will go through the whole thread at a later stage when I am redoing the kits and give this another look. Big update will come later.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 23 June 2020, 15:07:18
Hi All! Do we have an estimate timeline at the moment for the KAT Refined?

Can’t wait for GB. Happen to know ETA for release? Thanks

Timings depend a little bit on how the following KAT sets will turn out. I believe we have another one shipping soon. I have a date set already but don't want to communicate it until I know it will happen. It's not too far off though. More on this later.

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: willyG on Tue, 23 June 2020, 15:31:59
been waiting for some "high-key" professional looking KAT sets. In for both
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: CoolMike on Tue, 23 June 2020, 15:47:38
Would be awesome to see this become a thing and also with some new colorways that are popular..not that I don't like black and white, it's super elegant.


Pretty much a less aggressive KAT form, nice work.


GL

Mike
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: TacoTypes on Wed, 24 June 2020, 10:28:03

Two more things. Can we get a 1.5u \ key in the alphas? I feel it would be a waste to have to buy a whole separate mod set for one key... And is it possible to get a 6.25u spacebar in the alphas? I'm pretty sure every other KAT kit has had a spacebar in the alphas and I don't see why this set shouldn't have one either.

Please again. Tell me if I've been misled.

KAT Space Cadet doesn't have space in alphas ;)

Thank you for your suggestions though, I will go through the whole thread at a later stage when I am redoing the kits and give this another look. Big update will come later.

I see. The only thing that I'm noticing is that the KAT space cadet set had a different color spacebar in the mods. I don't feel like you should put a different color spacebar in the mods because then we would again have one spacebar that some people don't want and would lack the spacebar that they did want. I feel that an addition of a spacebar in the alphas would appeal to many as they wouldn't have to buy an extra spacebar set or mod set just for one key just like the \ key that I mentioned earlier.

Thanks for all of the support and willingness to accept feedback! I honestly just fell in love with the iron180 render that you had made, and would like to attempt to recreate it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: lamonayon on Thu, 25 June 2020, 07:02:28
Timings depend a little bit on how the following KAT sets will turn out. I believe we have another one shipping soon. I have a date set already but don't want to communicate it until I know it will happen. It's not too far off though. More on this later.

Thanks man!

Will we be able to purchase mixed units?  Bow for modifiers and and WoB for alphas and vice versa?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 25 June 2020, 07:43:15
Will we be able to purchase mixed units?  Bow for modifiers and and WoB for alphas and vice versa?

Yes, they are kits, so you are free to pick 'n' mix however you please.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Armaguard on Sun, 28 June 2020, 00:53:08

Ergo and Mac mod icons are coming. Added in the todo list  ;)


Big excite now. Thanks for all your work on this set!
Looking forward to seeing how it all turns out when the QC issues with the molds are resolved.
In for ergo + alphas in BoW for sure. Possibly others too.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: jubei on Sun, 28 June 2020, 14:27:35
Hi All! Do we have an estimate timeline at the moment for the KAT Refined?

Can’t wait for GB. Happen to know ETA for release? Thanks

Timings depend a little bit on how the following KAT sets will turn out. I believe we have another one shipping soon. I have a date set already but don't want to communicate it until I know it will happen. It's not too far off though. More on this later.

Nicely planned. Can't wait.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: blaqbern on Sun, 28 June 2020, 16:08:21
Any chance we could see a 1.5 Function in the extra mods kits? This would helpful for filling out the area to right of the spacebar for the Ion Zenith and the Wyvern (probably others too).
Really fantastic work on this so far. Looking forward to the kit updates!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Keyjus on Wed, 01 July 2020, 07:39:38
A spacebar kit woule be really nice. Otherwise you would have to buy the whole ortho set just for the split spacebar.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: arrowM on Thu, 02 July 2020, 22:13:02
This set has endgame potential for me. 100% in.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: JCraftCables on Fri, 03 July 2020, 01:44:22
Looks really nice! Definitely in on this.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 03 July 2020, 09:04:27
Looks really nice! Definitely in on this.

This set has endgame potential for me. 100% in.

Thank you guys! Big update coming after my vacay! Hope it will satisfy peoples needs in terms of kitting.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: hkhawk on Fri, 03 July 2020, 11:52:56
Is there a chance for icon mods in the 40s/Ortho kits?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 03 July 2020, 12:02:26
Is there a chance for icon mods in the 40s/Ortho kits?

Yes was actually planning to switch to icon instead.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: hkhawk on Fri, 03 July 2020, 14:23:26
Is there a chance for icon mods in the 40s/Ortho kits?

Yes was actually planning to switch to icon instead.

Amazing, thank you!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Yilk81 on Sat, 04 July 2020, 03:29:41
Very nice to have a set that's not about flashiness but rather about sheer quality. Love how you have gone into the tiny details to get it perfect. I'd love to have this set as my base set but I'm missing one thing unfortunately. I'm a newly converted colemak user and I'd like to have the right legends to get conversations started with open minded people.
I hope a Colevrak+ kit is an option 🤞
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Dafraz117 on Sun, 05 July 2020, 06:48:54
Interested cool idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: perry4761 on Sun, 05 July 2020, 19:33:50
This set cannot go live soon enough! I'll probably snag quite a few kits from both WoB and BoW, I love how it fits on so many different boards.

Sidenote: I was told that light on dark was impossible when using dye-sublimation, unless you didn't care about totally muting/darkening the light color. Was I lied to or is there a risk that WoB might turn out kinda ugly?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: eskimojo on Sun, 05 July 2020, 19:45:59
Sidenote: I was told that light on dark was impossible when using dye-sublimation, unless you didn't care about totally muting/darkening the light color. Was I lied to or is there a risk that WoB might turn out kinda ugly?

Keyreative uses all-over dye sublimation, which involves dyeing the sides, as well as the top - the dark colour is dyed on top of the lighter colour.

Here's the samples I had for Lich:
(https://i.imgur.com/dhyr8UL.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/r7I4asy.jpg)
You can see that all the colours other than the lightest purple are dyed on top of white.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: dvorcol on Mon, 06 July 2020, 00:12:54
Sidenote: I was told that light on dark was impossible when using dye-sublimation, unless you didn't care about totally muting/darkening the light color. Was I lied to or is there a risk that WoB might turn out kinda ugly?

Keyreative uses all-over dye sublimation, which involves dyeing the sides, as well as the top - the dark colour is dyed on top of the lighter colour.

Here's the samples I had for Lich:
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/dhyr8UL.jpg)
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/r7I4asy.jpg)

You can see that all the colours other than the lightest purple are dyed on top of white.

Interesting.  I didn't realize most were molded white and dyed twice.  I was thinking the other three in your photo were molded yellow.  Then the 2008C legend was standard dye-sub, and the other two all-over dye-sub (yellow legends being non-dyed resin).
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Mon, 06 July 2020, 06:30:53
Interesting.  I didn't realize most were molded white and dyed twice.  I was thinking the other three in your photo were molded yellow.  Then the 2008C legend was standard dye-sub, and the other two all-over dye-sub (yellow legends being non-dyed resin).

I think it depends. The yellow-on-black novelties in KAM Starry Night, another Keyreative set, were produced the way you described.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: eskimojo on Mon, 06 July 2020, 09:02:45
Interesting.  I didn't realize most were molded white and dyed twice.  I was thinking the other three in your photo were molded yellow.  Then the 2008C legend was standard dye-sub, and the other two all-over dye-sub (yellow legends being non-dyed resin).

I think it depends. The yellow-on-black novelties in KAM Starry Night, another Keyreative set, were produced the way you described.

Yeah, I enquired as to what was the deciding factor, but didn't get an answer. I wonder whether it's easier to achieve the correct purple on dyed yellow rather than actual yellow plastic? Not sure.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: JCraftCables on Mon, 06 July 2020, 09:25:38
Super nice! end game design for sure! The problem will be getting a set in the colour theme you want :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kidpid on Mon, 06 July 2020, 09:56:50
The one thing that I wish would change about KAT would be the stem height. I wish it were shorter so the caps would sit slightly below keyboards' side walls, like GMK caps do.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Mon, 06 July 2020, 10:34:11
Yeah, I enquired as to what was the deciding factor, but didn't get an answer. I wonder whether it's easier to achieve the correct purple on dyed yellow rather than actual yellow plastic? Not sure.

I think it's probably easier for them to get the desired color by dyeing white plastic. Only the shape of the legend is likely dyed yellow (i.e. there's probably little to no purple-on-yellow overlap).
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: EmergencyPerspective on Thu, 09 July 2020, 01:00:05
I am 100% in for WoB and probably BoW too. I want to try KAT and this looks perfect
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Obamas Mama on Thu, 09 July 2020, 10:56:39
Finally a KAT set I get get behind. Thank you for making this.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Fuzon on Thu, 09 July 2020, 12:16:39
Sorry if I missed it, but when is the ETA of the Group buy?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: noorejji on Thu, 09 July 2020, 19:07:05
Slated for October if everything goes smoothly, is the last I heard.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Mackem on Sat, 11 July 2020, 15:02:15
Is a Hangul alpha kit a no-go?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: RedBeardDog on Sat, 11 July 2020, 23:45:11
Can you add set F1 -F10 for ion zenith kb?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: noorejji on Sun, 12 July 2020, 01:03:25
Can you add set F1 -F10 for ion zenith kb?
You want a kit for ONE keyboard? Just get the F-row kit and deal with the fact that they’re all on one row. Even with a separate kit you’d still have to differentiate based on how you wanna order the keys. It’s unreasonable.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: GMK83 on Sun, 12 July 2020, 08:18:56
Can get behind this kit for sure.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: alper_maestro on Sun, 12 July 2020, 08:29:58
Are the prices already known?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: blaqbern on Sun, 12 July 2020, 09:08:17
Can you add set F1 -F10 for ion zenith kb?
You want a kit for ONE keyboard? Just get the F-row kit and deal with the fact that they’re all on one row. Even with a separate kit you’d still have to differentiate based on how you wanna order the keys. It’s unreasonable.
I think that’s right. Even in some of the Zenith renders, they show the macro columns decked out in all Rama custom aluminum keycaps (pretty pricey option, if you wanna go that route). Those are all gonna be R1 Cherry profile. If you think about it, the sculpt exist to make the keycaps more comfortable and intuitive to type on, but you don’t really “type” on the f-row.
If you’re dead set on having the right profile for those caps, take a look at MT3 Extended 2048. There are a bunch of different 1U icon keycaps for every row (Icono kit). Or pick up a KAM set. Don’t pass on this set, though!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Curin Derwin on Sun, 12 July 2020, 09:24:16
Great goals. In.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: nirvana549 on Sun, 12 July 2020, 09:32:35
Is a colvrak kit out of the question? In either way! :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Shutter_Shock on Sun, 12 July 2020, 12:00:34
Can you add set F1 -F10 for ion zenith kb?
You want a kit for ONE keyboard? Just get the F-row kit and deal with the fact that they’re all on one row. Even with a separate kit you’d still have to differentiate based on how you wanna order the keys. It’s unreasonable.
I think that’s right. Even in some of the Zenith renders, they show the macro columns decked out in all Rama custom aluminum keycaps (pretty pricey option, if you wanna go that route). Those are all gonna be R1 Cherry profile. If you think about it, the sculpt exist to make the keycaps more comfortable and intuitive to type on, but you don’t really “type” on the f-row.
If you’re dead set on having the right profile for those caps, take a look at MT3 Extended 2048. There are a bunch of different 1U icon keycaps for every row (Icono kit). Or pick up a KAM set. Don’t pass on this set, though!
Something like the GMK Redacted novelties set may work too. It has extra redacted keys for exert row. Signature plastics also sells blanks and re-legendable keycaps that I think come in different row profiles. WASD will UV print you custom keycaps.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: GMK83 on Sun, 12 July 2020, 14:38:56
Seems like that render of the S&R 180 would take several kits to piece together. 
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kobeian on Sun, 12 July 2020, 15:42:02
really hope that future kat sets can also considering using the same fonts etc as well, the font is one the big things that keeps me from getting KAT sets.


thanks this is great work

Seconding.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Hell-es on Mon, 13 July 2020, 00:41:06
Wish there would be an accent kit and/or color mods in RGB and CMY - that would make the set even more versatile
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: bd_slade on Mon, 13 July 2020, 01:59:23
Wish there would be an accent kit and/or color mods in RGB and CMY - that would make the set even more versatile

Agreed! I do appreciate that it's meant to be a simple/refined kit without extra complications, but I like the splash of colour that comes with the accents/mods. I'd also love icon mods, but that's not really GMK's style, so I get it. haha :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: meowscanttype on Mon, 13 July 2020, 14:02:46
this is endgame  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ryukomatoi on Mon, 13 July 2020, 16:35:59
KAT profile? PBT? GMK lettering? WS2?! Easy buy/win for me.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Keyjus on Mon, 13 July 2020, 17:07:46
 Is a spacebar kit not an option?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Kookiekurls on Mon, 13 July 2020, 17:50:13
Hmm... hope in real life off center legends work on such a sculpted cap.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: caviar on Tue, 14 July 2020, 00:57:49
1. Any update on when this is expected to run GB?
2. Any chance of seeing what off center legends look like on a sculpted cap in KAT profile?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: richard912 on Tue, 14 July 2020, 01:33:28
Would be nice to see an R3 Home added to the kit
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: jubei on Tue, 14 July 2020, 04:00:13
Slated for October if everything goes smoothly, is the last I heard.

Copy, if GB is October... how far back is KAT expected to be shipped out you guys think?

Eyeing Drop GMK WoB that is shipping end of August. So depending how far shipping for this will be, might need a placeholder. Eventually, I'd like to go all KAT caps.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Clay333 on Tue, 14 July 2020, 07:21:35
I have never used a Kat set. Are they super tall like SA or closer to GMK height? I personally hate the look of tall keycaps, and from what I can tell from the renders these don't look too tall, maybe 2mm higher than GMK.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: kidpid on Tue, 14 July 2020, 09:09:52
I have never used a Kat set. Are they super tall like SA or closer to GMK height? I personally hate the look of tall keycaps, and from what I can tell from the renders these don't look too tall, maybe 2mm higher than GMK.

(https://i1.wp.com/thekeeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/KATvsSAandCherryRev1.png?resize=1024%2C300&ssl=1)

Image from https://thekeeblog.com/overview-of-different-keycap-profiles/
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: FunBox on Tue, 14 July 2020, 10:29:26
I have never used a Kat set. Are they super tall like SA or closer to GMK height? I personally hate the look of tall keycaps, and from what I can tell from the renders these don't look too tall, maybe 2mm higher than GMK.
This might give you an idea(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200714/b135ad7a72d318c1371e405e0c957b6f.jpg)

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: vi0till on Tue, 14 July 2020, 10:40:56
I have never used a Kat set. Are they super tall like SA or closer to GMK height? I personally hate the look of tall keycaps, and from what I can tell from the renders these don't look too tall, maybe 2mm higher than GMK.
This might give you an idea
Show Image
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200714/b135ad7a72d318c1371e405e0c957b6f.jpg)


Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
I would like to try KAT as well. How bad is spacebar warping issue with KAT? Or negligible?

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: FunBox on Tue, 14 July 2020, 10:46:33
I have never used a Kat set. Are they super tall like SA or closer to GMK height? I personally hate the look of tall keycaps, and from what I can tell from the renders these don't look too tall, maybe 2mm higher than GMK.
This might give you an idea
Show Image
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200714/b135ad7a72d318c1371e405e0c957b6f.jpg)


Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
I would like to try KAT as well. How bad is spacebar warping issue with KAT? Or negligible?

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk
I'm not sure, I grabbed the photo off Instagram a few days ago

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Tue, 14 July 2020, 18:52:27
I would like to try KAT as well. How bad is spacebar warping issue with KAT? Or negligible?

I would say negligible. The spacebars I got with my KAT Alpha set were 🍓 good.

On the other hand, I did have some issues with stems cracking on switches that have sliders slightly on the larger side (MX Clears, to be precise).

Edit: clarification
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Shikada on Wed, 15 July 2020, 02:27:31
This is  the first time I hear about stems cracking on KAT. Damn, that's such a shame :(
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Biased opinion on Thu, 16 July 2020, 22:20:49
This may have already been asked but is there a possibility for a full 5 row Numpad, this would allow for use on 108 key boards and dedicated numpads.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: drfranco on Fri, 17 July 2020, 10:33:38
I'm a sucker for clean thoughtful design. I'm in.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ryukomatoi on Fri, 17 July 2020, 18:29:25
really hope that future kat sets can also considering using the same fonts etc as well, the font is one the big things that keeps me from getting KAT sets.


thanks this is great work

Seconding.

Thirding.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: perry4761 on Tue, 21 July 2020, 13:13:16
really hope that future kat sets can also considering using the same fonts etc as well, the font is one the big things that keeps me from getting KAT sets.


thanks this is great work

Seconding.

Thirding.

Fourthing, but I’m not sure how that can happen without the render files being made available to people who wish to do so. Without that, designers will need to first spend countless hours trying to copy Macsurfy’s work, and then spend whatever amount of hours will be necessary to create their own set from there. It’s more than double the work, so I’m not sure this will catch on organically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: hammerbrotha on Tue, 21 July 2020, 15:41:00
5thing this, i love the font work done here, if this could become the standard for KAT, or at least easily accessible, i think it'd look amazing. The funny KAT font has turned me off of a few sets out there.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Shutter_Shock on Tue, 21 July 2020, 20:32:35
really hope that future kat sets can also considering using the same fonts etc as well, the font is one the big things that keeps me from getting KAT sets.


thanks this is great work

Seconding.

Thirding.

+1
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: lolbryandanielson on Tue, 21 July 2020, 23:47:21
I'm in. Looks great. Is there an estimated GB date or is that still undecided?

Thank you!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Jars on Wed, 22 July 2020, 12:46:35
I am in love with this, can't wait!  :-*
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: w0t on Fri, 24 July 2020, 07:20:42
Man the clean, minimalist look is absolutely stunning! Love how you're nailing the basics and the hierarchy of symbols in the numbers is neat. Was slightly bummed that the split spacebar was in the orthos/40s kit render considering 2.25/2.75/7u users are mutually exclusive to ortho users and grouping these users went against the streamlined vibe of this set/kat kits but knowing you'll add a spacebar kit resolves that. It also made me realise that I'd be willing to buy the mod kits in both bow and wob for alice layout just in case but thinking about different colour combinations I can coordinate makes me excited! Still gonna buy a spacebar kit on top of this. Btw you've done an amazing job macsurfy, your attention to detail and willingness to communicate with us means a lot so ty!! :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 24 July 2020, 07:35:28
Was slightly bummed that the split spacebar was in the orthos/40s kit render considering 2.25/2.75/7u users are mutually exclusive to ortho users [...]

2.25u and 2.75u spacekeys are used by lots of staggered 40% boards (Prime_E, Cajal, UT47.2, Equinox, Romeo, Dimple, Panc40, Minorca, to name a few), so unless ortho support is split off and offered separately, these keys should stay in the kit. 7u is not commonly used on 40s, though; that can probably be removed.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: fish_oh on Fri, 24 July 2020, 08:17:42
Any estimate ETA when this GB will start?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: stealthzero on Fri, 24 July 2020, 09:39:43
Well fk...the BoW set looks so sexy to me but both sets are baller af.  Im definitely in on this GB
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: w0t on Fri, 24 July 2020, 10:54:57
2.25u and 2.75u spacekeys are used by lots of staggered 40% boards (Prime_E, Cajal, UT47.2, Equinox, Romeo, Dimple, Panc40, Minorca, to name a few), so unless ortho support is split off and offered separately, these keys should stay in the kit. 7u is not commonly used on 40s, though; that can probably be removed.

Oh I see, thanks for the clarification. Soz I'm still new to this but my point was it's a shame the spacebars and 40s are bundled together in the renders and that a dedicated 2.25/2.75/7u kit would be beneficial for catering to more people instead of only the 40%s you mentioned. They probs already sorted it tho considering their past message, guessing 2.25/2.75u included in both the spacebar and 40s kit? But surely it wouldn't be a big deal for those 40% board users to add an extra kit to their order right, that way the orthos/other 40 users don't have extra spacebars.

Here we have the list with the results on the right side (ordered and non-ordered). What is marked green is what I already have (I included the split Ortho and 40s kits too) just so it becomes clearer what should be added.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/OsJLeB6.jpg)


The ordered list on its own for clarity
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/USna4E5.jpg)


Let me know what you think of this list but I think it is pretty clear that a spacebar kit and Ergo kit is needed at the very least.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 24 July 2020, 10:59:45
Oh I see, thanks for the clarification. Soz I'm still new to this but my point was it's a shame the spacebars and 40s are bundled together in the renders and that a dedicated 2.25/2.75/7u kit would be beneficial for catering to more people instead of only the 40%s you mentioned. They probs already sorted it tho considering their past message, guessing 2.25/2.75u included in both the spacebar and 40s kit?

Ah okay, I missed the point of your original post slightly. Yes, a separate spacekeys kit is definitely needed. I think 2.25u and 2.75u are a meaningful inclusion for both kits.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: Muchacho on Fri, 24 July 2020, 13:03:28
really hope that future kat sets can also considering using the same fonts etc as well, the font is one the big things that keeps me from getting KAT sets.


thanks this is great work

Seconding.

Thirding.

Fourthing, but I’m not sure how that can happen without the render files being made available to people who wish to do so. Without that, designers will need to first spend countless hours trying to copy Macsurfy’s work, and then spend whatever amount of hours will be necessary to create their own set from there. It’s more than double the work, so I’m not sure this will catch on organically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While your logic makes sense, it only needs one other person to do the same work and release the files.
So you are being slightly more pessimistic than it needs. :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: pleasega on Sat, 25 July 2020, 04:09:21
hi, can you consider adding ilumkb for SEA vendor?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Sat, 25 July 2020, 12:11:28
Hi all!

I am back from my vacation. Thank you so much for the suggestions and the kind words. I am now compiling a todo list for myself to get some kind of structure on how to approach all the updates and additions. I'll post them as soon as they are ready for one last round of feedback. But I think we're pretty close.

I have not yet received any samples so no news on that part.

Groupbuy will start in October. Very exciting!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: thelaughingman on Sat, 25 July 2020, 22:33:08
looking forward to getting 1 set of each, the icon mods just look too damn clean  :))
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ISOxSwap on Sun, 26 July 2020, 02:13:17
Was slightly bummed that the split spacebar was in the orthos/40s kit render considering 2.25/2.75/7u users are mutually exclusive to ortho users [...]

2.25u and 2.75u spacekeys are used by lots of staggered 40% boards (Prime_E, Cajal, UT47.2, Equinox, Romeo, Dimple, Panc40, Minorca, to name a few), so unless ortho support is split off and offered separately, these keys should stay in the kit. 7u is not commonly used on 40s, though; that can probably be removed.

I have to disagree.
The same way F-row is its own kit, split spacebar should be one to for all the different types of keebs. I might be able to stretch that the 40s can have a 2u and a 4u spacebar.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Sun, 26 July 2020, 15:02:53
2.25u and 2.75u spacekeys are used by lots of staggered 40% boards (Prime_E, Cajal, UT47.2, Equinox, Romeo, Dimple, Panc40, Minorca, to name a few), so unless ortho support is split off and offered separately, these keys should stay in the kit. 7u is not commonly used on 40s, though; that can probably be removed.

There is no 7u in the 40s kit?

Looking at what to do with the space kit currently. Feels like it would be a good idea actually to break out all the spacebars from the 40s and offer it as a separate kit. It makes for a pretty big kit though.

It would contain the following:


Alternartively leave 40s as is and do a "regular" spacebar kit with



yey, ney .. opinions?


Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: konstantin on Sun, 26 July 2020, 15:37:47
I have to disagree.
The same way F-row is its own kit, split spacebar should be one to for all the different types of keebs. I might be able to stretch that the 40s can have a 2u and a 4u spacebar.

Where have you seen a 4u spacebar?


Looking at what to do with the space kit currently. Feels like it would be a good idea actually to break out all the spacebars from the 40s and offer it as a separate kit. It makes for a pretty big kit though.

It would contain the following:

[...]

Alternartively leave 40s as is and do a "regular" spacebar kit with

[...]

yey, ney .. opinions?

I vote for the second option. There is no reason to include those extra keys in 40s/ortho for only a minority of users that would use them. Putting all of the spacekeys in the spacebar kit essentially forces 40s users to buy it, which I don't think is something you want to have. Spacebar kits should be for extra keys that are needed to cover oddball layouts: Alice and split space in the case of ≥60% boards, and double 2.25u, double 2u and double 1.75u in the case of 40s.

See KAT Monochrome for a good reference on 40s and spacebar kits. Albeit, staggered 40% and ortho kits are split there, so they have a few extra nice-to-have keys in them that aren't necessarily a must (e.g. second 2u and 1.75u spaces).
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: kidpid on Sun, 26 July 2020, 15:39:32
The 40s kit should have the spacebars that are most common 40s layouts, namely 2x 2u, 2x 1.5u, 2x 2u, 1x 2.25u, and 1x 2.75u (I may be missing something). The spacebars kit should come with the weird spacebars, and potentially include a duplicate 6.25u and 7u spacebar so that 40s that do use those spacebars don't have to buy a modifiers kit to cover it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: ISOxSwap on Sun, 26 July 2020, 16:41:37
And all the Alice an split-keyboard users?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: konstantin on Sun, 26 July 2020, 16:58:03
The 40s kit should have the spacebars that are most common 40s layouts, namely 2x 2u, 2x 1.5u, 2x 2u, 1x 2.25u, and 1x 2.75u (I may be missing something). The spacebars kit should come with the weird spacebars, and potentially include a duplicate 6.25u and 7u spacebar so that 40s that do use those spacebars don't have to buy a modifiers kit to cover it.

You're missing 6.25u and, potentially, 1.75u. However, I think that 6.25u should be included in alphas anyway and not mods, because it's used on most/all sizes that this set aims to cover.

Second 2u may or may not be worth including. There is a 2u space in the spacebars kit which can be used for this, like there is a 2.25u key which can be used for 40% boards that use 2× 2.25u.

7u space is not used commonly enough to justify including it; I think it should stay only in the mods kits. It falls into the category of keys such as R3 (KAT R2) 1.5u Tab, used on 40% boards such as Romeo and Equinox. Those boards were designed to be covered by standard base kits, so they don't make a good basis for including such keys in 40s kits.


And all the Alice an split-keyboard users?

A copy of 2.75u, 2.25u, 2u, 1.25u and 1u spacekeys should definitely be included in the spacebar kit as well, imo. This benefits both ≥60% boards (Alice, split space) and 40s boards (double 2u, double 2.25u).
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: hammerbrotha on Sun, 26 July 2020, 19:42:07
Any chance for a Canadian vendor?
Edit. Nevermind I need to read the 1st post.


I'm in!


Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: caviar on Mon, 27 July 2020, 16:43:33
Have they indicated when you will receive a sample?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: w0t on Tue, 28 July 2020, 04:10:07
Looking at what to do with the space kit currently. Feels like it would be a good idea actually to break out all the spacebars from the 40s and offer it as a separate kit. It makes for a pretty big kit though.

It would contain the following:
...

Alternartively leave 40s as is and do a "regular" spacebar kit with
...

I reckon the latter option, that way split spacebar users won't get ortho/40s specific spacebars and vice versa, so has the least redundancies. 40/ortho users might get annoyed if you did the former cos they'll be forced to get the spacebar kit anyways.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 28 July 2020, 06:00:40
Have they indicated when you will receive a sample?

Just heard from them that the samples are done  :cool: :cool:. They are on their way here.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: lamonayon on Tue, 28 July 2020, 07:10:57
Nice! You also in NL man? Really excited for this!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: Acoipat on Tue, 28 July 2020, 08:46:03
For spacebar kit I also prefer the second option, the keys you listed look good with the only thing possibly being 2x 3u? It's not a common spacebar size but if offered might as well include 2x 3u since it seems most boards using 3u space have 3u/1u/3u layout.

Also, just noticed there are no 1.5u Code keys but there's a 1.5u Sys key in the Extra mods kit. This seems odd, as a single 1.5u Sys and 1u Win doesn't cover Tsangan bottom row. I think having a 2x 1.5u Code/ 1u Alt option before getting the 1.5u Sys makes sense, and also 2x 1u Win / 2x 1.5u Sys if offered instead of 1 of each.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: blaqbern on Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:07:14
For spacebar kit I also prefer the second option, the keys you listed look good with the only thing possibly being 2x 3u? It's not a common spacebar size but if offered might as well include 2x 3u since it seems most boards using 3u space have 3u/1u/3u layout.

Also, just noticed there are no 1.5u Code keys but there's a 1.5u Sys key in the Extra mods kit. This seems odd, as a single 1.5u Sys and 1u Win doesn't cover Tsangan bottom row. I think having a 2x 1.5u Code/ 1u Alt option before getting the 1.5u Sys makes sense, and also 2x 1u Win / 2x 1.5u Sys if offered instead of 1 of each.
I agree that 2 x 1.5U Code and/or Sys keys would be great. Would also love to see a 1.5U Fn key for the bottom row.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:27:31
Two more things. Can we get a 1.5u \ key in the alphas? I feel it would be a waste to have to buy a whole separate mod set for one key... And is it possible to get a 6.25u spacebar in the alphas?

Why would u need that in the alphas? It is already in Mods, don't really see why you would move it.

Yes the 6.25u in Alphas is happening.

Nice! You also in NL man? Really excited for this!

Correct  :D. Thank you for your support!



Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: gunth on Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:30:44
i am from belgium so i have to buy this  :D
Really like this set
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:31:07
For spacebar kit I also prefer the second option, the keys you listed look good with the only thing possibly being 2x 3u? It's not a common spacebar size but if offered might as well include 2x 3u since it seems most boards using 3u space have 3u/1u/3u layout.

Will do the spacebar kit without the 3u x 2 to begin with and then take the discussion from there (there will be one more round of changes after I publish the new stuff).

Also, just noticed there are no 1.5u Code keys but there's a 1.5u Sys key in the Extra mods kit. This seems odd, as a single 1.5u Sys and 1u Win doesn't cover Tsangan bottom row. I think having a 2x 1.5u Code/ 1u Alt option before getting the 1.5u Sys makes sense, and also 2x 1u Win / 2x 1.5u Sys if offered instead of 1 of each.

Thanks for the suggestions, will look in to it and probably fix it since it's not the first time it has been mentioned.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: KingOfMemes on Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:47:01
Did you ever decide to do Colevrak?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:49:20
Did you ever decide to do Colevrak?

Yes. It has been made already. Uploading it here in a week or two.

i am from belgium so i have to buy this  :D
Really like this set

Thank you!  :thumb:

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: Hyphen on Tue, 28 July 2020, 14:55:27
The WoB is gorgeous. I'm definitely in just to put this on the board that lives on my macbook.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: dakimakura on Tue, 28 July 2020, 17:34:42
Definitely in for BoW + Text mods!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: hmmmwhatsthis on Tue, 28 July 2020, 19:07:12
This is it. This is the one.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: psxndc on Tue, 28 July 2020, 20:30:38
Did you ever decide to do Colevrak?

Yes. It has been made already. Uploading it here in a week or two.

Dooooooope.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: Yilk81 on Wed, 29 July 2020, 02:14:34
Interested to see what the pricing is going to be on this one. This feels like a very nice default base set that could do very well even outside of group buys.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: KingOfMemes on Wed, 29 July 2020, 09:36:15
Did you ever decide to do Colevrak?

Yes. It has been made already. Uploading it here in a week or two.

i am from belgium so i have to buy this  :D
Really like this set

Thank you!  :thumb:
Mah man. Count me in for many sets
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: hell0af on Wed, 29 July 2020, 12:09:54
Love the attention to all the details. So in.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: Curin Derwin on Wed, 29 July 2020, 20:18:51
Extra B key in kits, please!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: aadk5 on Thu, 30 July 2020, 00:57:14
Extra B key in kits, please!

This! Or any way we could separate the spacebars from the ortho kit? I'd have so many wasted keys if I needed the spacebars on an Alice
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 30 July 2020, 01:16:17
Extra B key in kits, please!

This! Or any way we could separate the spacebars from the ortho kit? I'd have so many wasted keys if I needed the spacebars on an Alice
Extra B key in kits, please!

Separate spacebars kit with Alice support is coming
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: blutoin on Thu, 30 July 2020, 01:57:53
The "\" button in the R3 column should be placed in alpha, right?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined
Post by: ISOxSwap on Thu, 30 July 2020, 02:44:56
Two more things. Can we get a 1.5u \ key in the alphas? I feel it would be a waste to have to buy a whole separate mod set for one key... And is it possible to get a 6.25u spacebar in the alphas?

Why would u need that in the alphas? It is already in Mods, don't really see why you would move it.

Yes the 6.25u in Alphas is happening.

The 1.5u \ is part of the alphas and not mods. If u look at some ANSI boards u will see it follow the alpha colors.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: harrislp on Thu, 30 July 2020, 02:51:49
I am very interested in this set, looks like a lot of time and effort has been put in so far and the result looks amazing. I think that this set will do extremely well and may well put KAT on the map as a major competitor to GMK as the go to set for hobbyists and enthusiasts alike. Really looking forward to the group buy stage, will most likely be purchasing both the white on black and the black on white sets. Hopefully the manufacturer has the same level of attention to detail and perfectionist tendencies as the designer. Can’t wait for October!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: vaf1en on Thu, 30 July 2020, 03:13:45
With the group buy scheduled for October, what would a realistic timeframe for delivery be?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: ISOxSwap on Thu, 30 July 2020, 03:37:14
With the group buy scheduled for October, what would a realistic timeframe for delivery be?
Summertime if we are lucky..
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 30 July 2020, 06:00:32
With the group buy scheduled for October, what would a realistic timeframe for delivery be?

I was told 7-9 months from when the GB ends when I kicked this off. That was in the middle of Covid-19 and production has resumed since then so the time frame is a big unknown at this moment. A lot can still change in the world but hopefully it will be at the lower end of that estimate but who knows.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: artememe on Fri, 31 July 2020, 04:20:03
Hi sorry is there a Discord server for this to have easier pages for updates/announcements/general feedback? Tried to look across the posts but couldn't find : )
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: PureLuck on Fri, 31 July 2020, 07:16:46
Wow this is really very nice and refined. Will be my very 1st KAT set.

Would you be considering South East Asia vendors?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: pokkuhlag on Fri, 31 July 2020, 09:21:45
Is it possible to have a seperate Ortho kit? Just like KAT Hyperfuse? I don't need all those weird sized mods / space bars. Would be a somewhat cheaper as well for us dedicated ortho users. If I compare KAT hyperfuse with KAT atlantis.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: wgsunrise on Fri, 31 July 2020, 09:25:31
— Candybar render is outdated. Will remain that way until I know what mods (icon or text) we're going with.
Does this mean that the final GB will have only one option of mod kit (no matter which one eventually) instead all three of them?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: Shutter_Shock on Fri, 31 July 2020, 12:11:40
If KAT Mizu could use these legends when the GB runs later this year, that would be the dream. I'd still be buying this too, obviously.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: tempo on Fri, 31 July 2020, 13:44:20
Are the prices released for this?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 31 July 2020, 14:02:40
Hi sorry is there a Discord server for this to have easier pages for updates/announcements/general feedback? Tried to look across the posts but couldn't find : )

Hi! I have kept the first post in this thread updated so best bet is to look there. I will clean it up a little bit when the next big update is coming (pretty soon). Hope that works for you. I will check with the vendor if I can have a channel there for anything KAT Refined related. I will keep you updated if it happens. Thanks!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 31 July 2020, 14:05:28
Wow this is really very nice and refined. Will be my very 1st KAT set.

Would you be considering South East Asia vendors?

Thank you! Hope you will enjoy it! It's a little bit tricky since it is Asia and we already have a proxy for it but I will check since you are not the first one to ask.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 31 July 2020, 14:26:10
Is it possible to have a seperate Ortho kit? Just like KAT Hyperfuse? I don't need all those weird sized mods / space bars. Would be a somewhat cheaper as well for us dedicated ortho users. If I compare KAT hyperfuse with KAT atlantis.

Yes, actually those kits are usually about half the price of the 40S kits so consider it done.

Are the prices released for this?

Not until the kits are final. We're pretty close. As a reference look at past KAT GB's.

Does this mean that the final GB will have only one option of mod kit (no matter which one eventually) instead all three of them?

Yes most likely. I don't think icon+text would even work for most of the 40S/Ortho keys so that one is out for sure which leaves us with two variants.  I could possibly offer Text & Icon but since Ortho and 40S will be split we're looking at 8 (!) added kits. From my non-scientific research it seems most users prefer icon mods. So for the next update that is what is happening and we'll just have to take it from there and see if that sticks all the way to GB or not. Hope u understand, and feel free to react in the thread when the kits have been updated. Cheers!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: PubicusMaximus on Fri, 31 July 2020, 15:16:38
Good stuff, In for a full BoW Kit
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: WooWapDaBam on Fri, 31 July 2020, 15:48:32
Does this mean that the final GB will have only one option of mod kit (no matter which one eventually) instead all three of them?

Yes most likely. I don't think icon+text would even work for most of the 40S/Ortho keys so that one is out for sure which leaves us with two variants.  I could possibly offer Text & Icon but since Ortho and 40S will be split we're looking at 8 (!) added kits. From my non-scientific research it seems most users prefer icon mods. So for the next update that is what is happening and we'll just have to take it from there and see if that sticks all the way to GB or not. Hope u understand, and feel free to react in the thread when the kits have been updated. Cheers!

I hope we will have the option to get text only mods. It's such a clean set and I think text only suits it very well.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 31 July 2020, 15:52:34
There's now an official Discord channel on the Mykeyboard.eu server to reach me, discuss and find out about updates.

https://discord.gg/GyDWwE2
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: SirTimmyTimbit on Fri, 31 July 2020, 22:08:40
Man your attention to detail is 💯
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: Nepherte on Fri, 31 July 2020, 23:24:45
Count me in for both sets. Would be first KAT profile and these certainly convince me to take the jump.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: wgsunrise on Sat, 01 August 2020, 09:04:50
Does this mean that the final GB will have only one option of mod kit (no matter which one eventually) instead all three of them?
Yes most likely. I don't think icon+text would even work for most of the 40S/Ortho keys so that one is out for sure which leaves us with two variants.  I could possibly offer Text & Icon but since Ortho and 40S will be split we're looking at 8 (!) added kits. From my non-scientific research it seems most users prefer icon mods. So for the next update that is what is happening and we'll just have to take it from there and see if that sticks all the way to GB or not. Hope u understand, and feel free to react in the thread when the kits have been updated. Cheers!
Damn!! I really want Text mod would make it.
I am aware that Icon mod seems like the most favorite option in the community but I just don't like it.

Just like a lot of people have mentioned in previous discussion since KAT doesn't really have a hard MOQ for single kit as long as the entire ordered amount reach a certain MOQ.
I hope that you could take that into consideration to make both Icon and Text mod available if Text mod isn't going to be the only option.  :p

Thank you for the effort.
King regards.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Sat, 01 August 2020, 12:28:58
Does this mean that the final GB will have only one option of mod kit (no matter which one eventually) instead all three of them?
Yes most likely. I don't think icon+text would even work for most of the 40S/Ortho keys so that one is out for sure which leaves us with two variants.  I could possibly offer Text & Icon but since Ortho and 40S will be split we're looking at 8 (!) added kits. From my non-scientific research it seems most users prefer icon mods. So for the next update that is what is happening and we'll just have to take it from there and see if that sticks all the way to GB or not. Hope u understand, and feel free to react in the thread when the kits have been updated. Cheers!
Damn!! I really want Text mod would make it.
I am aware that Icon mod seems like the most favorite option in the community but I just don't like it.

Just like a lot of people have mentioned in previous discussion since KAT doesn't really have a hard MOQ for single kit as long as the entire ordered amount reach a certain MOQ.
I hope that you could take that into consideration to make both Icon and Text mod available if Text mod isn't going to be the only option.  :p

Thank you for the effort.
King regards.

Noted, the files still exist so we'll see after next round.  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: pokkuhlag on Sun, 02 August 2020, 00:00:59
Is it possible to have a seperate Ortho kit? Just like KAT Hyperfuse? I don't need all those weird sized mods / space bars. Would be a somewhat cheaper as well for us dedicated ortho users. If I compare KAT hyperfuse with KAT atlantis.

Yes, actually those kits are usually about half the price of the 40S kits so consider it done.


Thanks for that modification, I was just wondering about another one. Would it be possible to have an opposite color space bar in the ortho kit? (Perhaps everyone else would like it for their modifier kit as well) Most of my two-tone keyboards have a white alpha's with white spacebars and a different tone modifiers. Seems like a waste of money to buy two mod kits for just one space bar.

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: JoltFX on Sun, 02 August 2020, 09:39:47
I am partial to GMK as well however the second I saw the black and white combinations with that key profile I was sold. This is the set I need for my Stormtrooper 2U Think6.5V2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: xReV on Sun, 02 August 2020, 10:03:34
Wow really nice.  :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: crash822 on Sun, 02 August 2020, 12:34:51
I am partial to GMK as well however the second I saw the black and white combinations with that key profile I was sold. This is the set I need for my Stormtrooper 2U Think6.5V2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doing the same thing with my stormtrooper think
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: JoltFX on Sun, 02 August 2020, 14:23:15
I am partial to GMK as well however the second I saw the black and white combinations with that key profile I was sold. This is the set I need for my Stormtrooper 2U Think6.5V2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doing the same thing with my stormtrooper think
Yessssss!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: JoltFX on Sun, 02 August 2020, 20:35:30
Discord link is dead... can we get a new one?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Sun, 02 August 2020, 23:28:50
Discord link is dead... can we get a new one?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://discord.gg/GyDWwE2
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 03 August 2020, 14:13:05
Thanks for that modification, I was just wondering about another one. Would it be possible to have an opposite color space bar in the ortho kit? (Perhaps everyone else would like it for their modifier kit as well) Most of my two-tone keyboards have a white alpha's with white spacebars and a different tone modifiers. Seems like a waste of money to buy two mod kits for just one space bar.

Sorry but that one isn't happening. Kits stay true to their color and by not adding everyones favourite accent key to pretty much all kits we can keep the prices down. On the flip side, I made Ortho its own kit thus slashing the price in half so you can have two for the same price as the old one  :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: pokkuhlag on Mon, 03 August 2020, 14:25:41
Thanks for that modification, I was just wondering about another one. Would it be possible to have an opposite color space bar in the ortho kit? (Perhaps everyone else would like it for their modifier kit as well) Most of my two-tone keyboards have a white alpha's with white spacebars and a different tone modifiers. Seems like a waste of money to buy two mod kits for just one space bar.

Sorry but that one isn't happening. Kits stay true to their color and by not adding everyones favourite accent key to pretty much all kit we can keep the prices down. On the flip side, I made Ortho its own kit thus slashing the price in half so you can have two for the same price as the old one  :)

Thank you for your answer, I understand there are limits on the amount of changes. I am already grateful the ortho kit is split up.  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: Avijit on Mon, 03 August 2020, 23:03:05
This is looking great, super excited for this.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GroupBuy in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 04 August 2020, 01:46:45
Big kit update!

Thank you all for feedbacking and giving your opinions. I didn't have time to get back to everyone, but your requested change might be in here. Or it might not, regardless I still want to hear your feedback and I am planning to do more tweaks in the coming weeks. Please check the todo list on the front page for more info on that.


Updates

08/04/2020
40S/Ortho — Split in to separate kits
Colevrak — kits added
Spacebars — kits added
40S kits — Changed in to icon mods
40S kits — Added R2 1.5U Tab & FN
40S kits — R4 row removed
Ortho kits — Changed in to icon mods
Ergo kits — Changed to single color
Ergo kits — Changed to icon/text mods
Mac kits — Added icon mods
Mods kits — Removed 6.25U
Mods kits — Added 1U `~
Mods kits — Removed R3 |\
Mods kits — R2 Control
Mods kits — Removed R4 End & Pg Dn
Alphas kits — Added 6.25U
Extra Mods kits — Added 1.5U Function
Extra Mods kits — Added another 1.5U System
Extra Mods kits — Added two 1.5U Code
Extra Mods kits — Added another 1U Win
Extra Mods kits — Added 1.5U Alt
Alpha kits — Added R3 |\
Numpad kits — Added R4 End & Pg Dn
NorDeUK — Added R2 |\
General — Adjusted position & length of all arrows.



(https://i.imgur.com/ECVHnhV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wok511L.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/U0QKVoU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1VRR7eh.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/nRxclgR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EEE5CpZ.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/5jjMYw4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2IC1GRK.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/3iBHaew.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/88Wb5Sw.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/P0dYDqD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OXZedxq.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/o1daV8x.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FwuhaMa.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/H54QXo7.jpg)
Title: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: psxndc on Tue, 04 August 2020, 02:02:38
Copy/paste of my discord comment for posterity:

First, let me say I'm super excited about this! Awesome job; you nailed the colevrak kit. A couple questions on ortho though: R3 (the Q row) control is interesting, as is R2 (A row) shift. Did people specifically request those? I know I LOVE that you put in an R2 control, but I don't think I've seen an R3 one.

I ask for random keys sometimes, so I don't begrudge you honoring people's odd requests. Just never seen them before, so I thought I'd ask.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Avijit on Tue, 04 August 2020, 02:25:42
Something I still don't particularly understand is the separated F-row. I don't see how the savings for having it like this is worthwhile. I understand that 60% and 65% are very popular and F-rowless keyboards are on the rise. But parting the F-row which will end up costing an additional 10-15$ for a large segment of the community seems like a weird choice.

Also was the exact white that will be used mentioned?

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 04 August 2020, 02:31:39
Something I still don't particularly understand is the separated F-row. I don't see how the savings for having it like this is worthwhile. I understand that 60% and 65% are very popular and F-rowless keyboards are on the rise. But parting the F-row which will end up costing an additional 10-15$ for a large segment of the community seems like a weird choice.

Also was the exact white that will be used mentioned?

There is no added cost. People that need F-row will not pay more than they should, and people who don't need it won't have to waste their money on keys they have no use for. There is no downside to this.

I am receiving samples today so will show the selected white (and black) once I have decided on one and photos to go with it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: FunBox on Tue, 04 August 2020, 02:37:04
I've been so excited for this ever since it was first posted and this update to the kitting has completely renewed my Hype levels. Can't wait for the Sample photos

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Avijit on Tue, 04 August 2020, 03:09:31
Something I still don't particularly understand is the separated F-row. I don't see how the savings for having it like this is worthwhile. I understand that 60% and 65% are very popular and F-rowless keyboards are on the rise. But parting the F-row which will end up costing an additional 10-15$ for a large segment of the community seems like a weird choice.

Also was the exact white that will be used mentioned?

There is no added cost. People that need F-row will not pay more than they should, and people who don't need it won't have to waste their money on keys they have no use for. There is no downside to this.

I am receiving samples today so will show the selected white (and black) once I have decided on one and photos to go with it.

Alright, Thanks that is good to know, have you requested quotes yet or is the kitting still not finalized?

Looking forward to seeing the samples and purchasing this in october
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 04 August 2020, 04:38:34
Something I still don't particularly understand is the separated F-row. I don't see how the savings for having it like this is worthwhile. I understand that 60% and 65% are very popular and F-rowless keyboards are on the rise. But parting the F-row which will end up costing an additional 10-15$ for a large segment of the community seems like a weird choice.

Also was the exact white that will be used mentioned?

There is no added cost. People that need F-row will not pay more than they should, and people who don't need it won't have to waste their money on keys they have no use for. There is no downside to this.

I am receiving samples today so will show the selected white (and black) once I have decided on one and photos to go with it.

Alright, Thanks that is good to know, have you requested quotes yet or is the kitting still not finalized?

Looking forward to seeing the samples and purchasing this in october

Will get quotes as soon as I have kits locked down. Will try to move ahead as fast as possible now so I can get the pricing. Thank you for your support!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: pqpq on Tue, 04 August 2020, 05:40:52
firstly, amazing work and definitely in regardless but a couple of questions:

1. any possibility of getting 2x 2.25U Shifts for us 660 layout users?

2. sorry if this was mentioned/discussed already - was it more popular to have the R4 End and Pgdn keys in the numpad kit rather than the mod kits? personally, i thought it would have made more sense to keep them in the mod kits?

3. (being greedy) some sets have included two Tab keys to be able to outfit two boards (obviously different layouts) with just one modifier kit (e.g. a standard ANSI and HHKB/tsangan). of course this is easier achieved with accent kits as they provide additional ESC and Enter keys. i noticed there are 3 different numpad Enters to match whichever style of mods. similarly, adding 3 styles of Tabs (and regular Enters) might make that kit more compelling to some? probably asking a lot, but is this something you might consider?
edit: or perhaps in the Extra Mods kit?

again, looking forward to the GB and appreciate you being so receptive to feedback!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: blaqbern on Tue, 04 August 2020, 06:12:36
Wow, really amazing update. The kits have really come a long way, and they’re looking great! You’ll have no more requests from me!
Really appreciate your attention to detail and your dedication to making this set as polished as possible. Exceptional work!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: DaMnED on Tue, 04 August 2020, 07:15:15
My only wish would have to be a South kit since I'm Portuguese. Otherwise it's perfect keycap set with my favorite profile. Good work!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 04 August 2020, 09:31:56
Got the samples today!

Both good and bad I would say. I ordered a bunch of different white and black caps but only got one batch of whites. Good part is that I am quite happy with it (It is the same as KAT Milkshake I believe). Small legends bleed quite a bit so that will have to be adjusted. Second good thing is that they look really good apart from the bleed. Will do more shots of the other caps later.


I will try to get new samples as fast as possible.

(https://i.imgur.com/wa2a2F1.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: bananasplit_00 on Tue, 04 August 2020, 09:35:11
Got the samples today!

Both good and bad I would say. I ordered a bunch of different white and black caps but only got one batch of whites. Good part is that I am quite happy with it (It is the same as KAT Milkshake I believe). Small legends bleed quite a bit so that will have to be adjusted. Second good thing is that they look really good apart from the bleed. Will do more shots of the other caps later.


I will try to get new samples as fast as possible.

-Snip-

That white is real nice, cant say i mind the thicccc 2 but that @ needs some adjusting for sure  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: NathanCVII on Tue, 04 August 2020, 09:59:10
The white really is a nice in between of WS1 and WS2. Looks really nice  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: hottrout on Tue, 04 August 2020, 10:44:07
Looking forward to this set.  really clean and well thought out.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: ILikeShorts on Tue, 04 August 2020, 11:14:21
I'm sure it's not popular enough to warrant, but any chance of mono-legends for numbers and special characters?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: pokkuhlag on Tue, 04 August 2020, 13:58:59
The update on the ortho looks very nice. I am glad some of the modifiers are still in text.
Also the choice of white is nice and it doesn't hurt your eyes as much as WS2.  :cool:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: kajahtaa on Tue, 04 August 2020, 15:58:58
Thanks for preonic pipe in ortho

I'm in
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: RexKorp on Tue, 04 August 2020, 18:30:58
That white looks perfect for e-white boards!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: HRB on Wed, 05 August 2020, 17:53:56
Reserving at least one set for each color. Take my money!!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 06 August 2020, 04:35:03
Added Funkeys as a proxy for Ukraine\Russia\Belarus

Welcome!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: stoffelduss on Thu, 06 August 2020, 04:46:23
Thanks for adding Colevrak, samples look okay as well. The colour I'd prefer as more like WS1.

About the 'ergo' kit, I think some things could be changed. The R2 bracket keys seem to be duplicates from the ones in the alpha kit, and the R2 PgUp and PgDn keys seem to be included twice in just this kit. And for the 1.5u keys, my priorities would in some cases be different. For example, the R3 Control key is something I've never seen, but a R3 1.5 Backspace and a R3 1.5 Backslash would both be pretty common, I think. R2 1.5 Enter would also make sense in my opinion. And for the bottom row, I'd personally prefer a 1.5 Sys or even a second 1.5 Control over the 1.5 Menu or Fn options, possibly the 1.5 Menu could be replaced.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: RedBeardDog on Thu, 06 August 2020, 07:01:40
— Ukraine\Russia\Belarus: Funkeys
Yea !!!!! :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: the1q on Thu, 06 August 2020, 09:20:36
I'm going to end up with 4-5 sets of BOW and WOB but I don't mind. This looks fantastic. Although can't decide if I'd use this instead of my ePBT GOK BOW or my GMK WOB...
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Pejano on Thu, 06 August 2020, 13:46:56
I'm sure it's not popular enough to warrant, but any chance of mono-legends for numbers and special characters?

+1

I'm an XDA Canvas mono user and it solves a lot of compatibility issues whilst contributing to an even cleaner look.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: ponchofreedo on Thu, 06 August 2020, 15:20:11
I'm going to end up with 4-5 sets of BOW and WOB but I don't mind. This looks fantastic. Although can't decide if I'd use this instead of my ePBT GOK BOW or my GMK WOB...

i was just thinking the same thing...
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: ILikeShorts on Thu, 06 August 2020, 16:16:57
I'm sure it's not popular enough to warrant, but any chance of mono-legends for numbers and special characters?

+1

I'm an XDA Canvas mono user and it solves a lot of compatibility issues whilst contributing to an even cleaner look.

Exactly! I've got quite a non-standard layout. I don't have <> as shifted ,. and I can't bring myself to have legends that don't match up.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: SmilingPudding on Thu, 06 August 2020, 20:57:31
Would be nice to have icon mods for control and options in the Mac kit.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: vurtomatic on Thu, 06 August 2020, 21:02:07
^^^Seconded.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: selectallfrom on Fri, 07 August 2020, 12:54:40
^^^I also second that
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 07 August 2020, 13:12:13
Would be nice to have icon mods for control and options in the Mac kit.

^^^I also second that

^^^Seconded.

I hear you guys loud and clear  :). Unfortunately I must disappoint you. Control, Esc, Caps Lock purse, Delete and Option/Alt are icons that you will never find in my sets. Especially not this one. I get that they make more sense for Mac users but hopefully you can live with my choice and join anyway. Thank you!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: octol on Sat, 08 August 2020, 16:07:04
Looking at the ortho and ergo kits my wishlist is as follows.
In the ortho kit:

1. 2x blank 1.5u R2.

Reason: probably the two most popular split ergo boards are the Corne and the Lily58, and these use 1.5u (alt 1.25u) keys for the thumbs. Usually these smaller split boards are grouped together with the ortho kit as they have 1u outer mods. See MT3 Susuwatari as an example. Or the MDA Big Bang ortho set. Currently you need both the ortho and the ergo kit two cover these boards (and they are very common).

2. 2x blank concave 1u (R1) and/or replace the lower/raise with double up/down arrows. Ideally also another 2x blank concave 1u R2.

Reason: In Planck style layouts people more often than not flip the raise/lower keys upside down. The keycap set bundled with the Planck has these keys as up/down arrow making it simple.

In general: adding a few blank keys would give a lot of flexibility
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Mtvan87 on Sat, 08 August 2020, 19:51:04
Was thinking about getting the GMK Minimal 2, but after seeing KAT Refined. Will have to change my mind and wait for this GB.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Shutter_Shock on Sat, 08 August 2020, 21:26:31
Anyone / OP know more about any improvements to QC with KAT sets? My understanding is that previous sets had QC problems, though I should stipulate that I have never personally owned a KAT set—only GMK. My biggest concern is that I've heard of issues with keycaps being crooked. It would drive me nuts if the keycaps were misaligned.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: JoltFX on Sat, 08 August 2020, 21:34:47
Was thinking about getting the GMK Minimal 2, but after seeing KAT Refined. Will have to change my mind and wait for this GB.
Too true I’m in the same boat now


(https://i.imgur.com/m0PHzjC.jpg) (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106725.0)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: nbesa on Sat, 08 August 2020, 22:04:08
Definitely interested, gj!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: parablol on Sun, 09 August 2020, 01:30:42
Loving the niche kits!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: newQuestioner on Sun, 09 August 2020, 11:10:32
What kits would I need for a Maja? Alphas + Mods?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: SirTimmyTimbit on Sun, 09 August 2020, 14:12:30
Would it be possible to offer an accent kit?

WoB escape, enter, spacebar for BoW and vice versa?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: toumatakeshi on Sun, 09 August 2020, 14:14:50
I second the black/white accents. If this set takes off I'm sure we'll have people looking to make KAT accent kits matching this font/style (KAT Mr. Sleeves???)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Hell-es on Sun, 09 August 2020, 14:42:08
Oh, its already offered - buy both  ;D

Already asked for colored accents / mods in discord.  —> maybe later, not this round
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: leifsi on Sun, 09 August 2020, 15:37:11
Can you change the nordeuk set into a noth and south kit like most kat sets have?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Pejano on Sun, 09 August 2020, 15:42:27
I'm in for a WoB set and I'm UK-based, so if anyone wants to split the NorDeUK kit let me know :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Sun, 09 August 2020, 17:32:44
Can you change the nordeuk set into a noth and south kit like most kat sets have?

Hi,

Most sets don't have it. Some do.

Whenever there is a South kit in a set it is pretty much always the worst selling kit. Explosion sold 3, Lich sold 1 (!!) and Space Cadet sold 3. I would argue that the North/South kitting is something we don't need in KAT sets.

It's not a structure I will follow for this set. I want to focus my efforts on kits that will actually be used. Hopefully you can find something that works for you anyway. Cheers!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Biased opinion on Sun, 09 August 2020, 22:16:22
Just looking over the sets and the only thing i would say is missing is a full numpad with R5 keys like you see on GMK ThinkCaps. This is pretty much mandatory if your running a separate numpad like the KBDPad

https://imgur.com/Kc6NaOo
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 10 August 2020, 04:18:40
Anyone / OP know more about any improvements to QC with KAT sets? My understanding is that previous sets had QC problems, though I should stipulate that I have never personally owned a KAT set—only GMK. My biggest concern is that I've heard of issues with keycaps being crooked. It would drive me nuts if the keycaps were misaligned.

We won't really know until the next KAT set is delivered which I think is pretty soon.
Hopefully it is looking better this time!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 10 August 2020, 07:41:07
Would it be possible to offer an accent kit?

WoB escape, enter, spacebar for BoW and vice versa?

This would add 6 kits (icon, icon+text, text * 2 for the colorways) so it has intentionally been left out. Or I would just add them all to one kit. But at that point you are looking at a very small price difference to just grabbing two different mod kits. So at the moment it does not look like this will happen.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 10 August 2020, 13:24:21
salut!

French kits added.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 10 August 2020, 14:18:10
Apparently a true French kit should have tertiary legends. So that has been added in now aswell but it will cost you two extra keys. Let me know if it is all good now  :cool:

(https://i.imgur.com/4EXvCCs.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: TiamDesigns on Mon, 10 August 2020, 14:42:11
I'm probably in for BoW set  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 10 August 2020, 14:47:45
firstly, amazing work and definitely in regardless but a couple of questions:

1. any possibility of getting 2x 2.25U Shifts for us 660 layout users?

2. sorry if this was mentioned/discussed already - was it more popular to have the R4 End and Pgdn keys in the numpad kit rather than the mod kits? personally, i thought it would have made more sense to keep them in the mod kits?

3. (being greedy) some sets have included two Tab keys to be able to outfit two boards (obviously different layouts) with just one modifier kit (e.g. a standard ANSI and HHKB/tsangan). of course this is easier achieved with accent kits as they provide additional ESC and Enter keys. i noticed there are 3 different numpad Enters to match whichever style of mods. similarly, adding 3 styles of Tabs (and regular Enters) might make that kit more compelling to some? probably asking a lot, but is this something you might consider?
edit: or perhaps in the Extra Mods kit?

again, looking forward to the GB and appreciate you being so receptive to feedback!

1. yes  ;D
2. As far as I know R4 End and R4 PgDn is more common with numpad users than on smaller layouts. So it made more sense to move them there and save two keys.
3. I will think about it but it sounds like the increased price will be hard to justify on whichever kit it ends up being on.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 10 August 2020, 15:08:49
Looking at the ortho and ergo kits my wishlist is as follows.
In the ortho kit:

1. 2x blank 1.5u R2.

Reason: probably the two most popular split ergo boards are the Corne and the Lily58, and these use 1.5u (alt 1.25u) keys for the thumbs. Usually these smaller split boards are grouped together with the ortho kit as they have 1u outer mods. See MT3 Susuwatari as an example. Or the MDA Big Bang ortho set. Currently you need both the ortho and the ergo kit two cover these boards (and they are very common).

2. 2x blank concave 1u (R1) and/or replace the lower/raise with double up/down arrows. Ideally also another 2x blank concave 1u R2.

Reason: In Planck style layouts people more often than not flip the raise/lower keys upside down. The keycap set bundled with the Planck has these keys as up/down arrow making it simple.

In general: adding a few blank keys would give a lot of flexibility



Thanks for adding Colevrak, samples look okay as well. The colour I'd prefer as more like WS1.

About the 'ergo' kit, I think some things could be changed. The R2 bracket keys seem to be duplicates from the ones in the alpha kit, and the R2 PgUp and PgDn keys seem to be included twice in just this kit. And for the 1.5u keys, my priorities would in some cases be different. For example, the R3 Control key is something I've never seen, but a R3 1.5 Backspace and a R3 1.5 Backslash would both be pretty common, I think. R2 1.5 Enter would also make sense in my opinion. And for the bottom row, I'd personally prefer a 1.5 Sys or even a second 1.5 Control over the 1.5 Menu or Fn options, possibly the 1.5 Menu could be replaced.


I will have a look at your suggestions and see what we can do. Stand by! :)


[/quote]
What kits would I need for a Maja? Alphas + Mods?

From what I can see on the pictures of it you are correct. Alphas and mods kit. If you want to use the 2U 0 you will need the numpad kit too, otherwise just the 2.25U Shift there and save yourself the extra expense.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: DaMnED on Mon, 10 August 2020, 15:17:49
South kit, any chance?

Edit: Just saw the reply about South kit. I understand, had to ask. This is why I prefer Int kit vs noth/south, more sells and I get most of the keys I'd want anyway.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: bobdenard on Mon, 10 August 2020, 15:20:01
Apparently a true French kit should have tertiary legends. So that has been added in now aswell but it will cost you two extra keys. Let me know if it is all good now  :cool:

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/4EXvCCs.jpg)

French kit is ace, man! J’adore :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 10 August 2020, 16:08:12
I'm sure it's not popular enough to warrant, but any chance of mono-legends for numbers and special characters?

How do people feel about this? Personally I love mono, just don't know if there is any interest for this.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: psxndc on Mon, 10 August 2020, 16:27:06
I think it would be clean AF, just didn't know if you were concerned about Minimal 2 comparisons since they did it and "Minimal" is their theme. But I'd personally love it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: KurageOuji on Mon, 10 August 2020, 16:37:49
I never realized how nice mono looked until I saw it in minimal r2, now I wish I would have it on even more sets, so I would definitely welcome it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Pejano on Mon, 10 August 2020, 16:47:45
I'm sure it's not popular enough to warrant, but any chance of mono-legends for numbers and special characters?

How do people feel about this? Personally I love mono, just don't know if there is any interest for this.
If you covered all the numbers/punctuation in your alphas kit, that would be another reason for me to buy this over another similar GB ;)

Any chance you could produce some renders?

Super excited for this set now!!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: noorejji on Mon, 10 August 2020, 18:09:13
I concur would be really interesting to see a mockup of mono legends on this set.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Protein on Mon, 10 August 2020, 23:28:19
Excited for my first kat set(s)  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: octol on Tue, 11 August 2020, 02:03:10
There is a very good KAT Ergo guide here
- https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/g0nhg0/kat_ergo_kit_guide/
and the follow up
- https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/i3roqp/quick_dirty_kat_ergo_kit_guide/

Going by these what's missing from the Ergo kit is
 - 8x1u R2 thumb row: ctlr, super, alt, fn, menu, ins, del, print             
 - 2x1u R1 convex blank   
 - 1.5u R2 Enter
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 11 August 2020, 03:52:13
08/11/2020
Ergo kits — Removed duplicate R2 PgUp & PgDn
Ergo kits — Changed row number on bottom R1 to R2
Ergo kits — Added 2 x 1U convex keys
Ergo kits — Changed R1 1.5U Menu to Alt
Ergo kits — Changed R3 1.5U Control to Backspace
Ergo kits — Changed R2 1.5U Caps Lock to Enter
Ergo kits — Replaced 4 x R1 2U blanks to convex.

(https://i.imgur.com/n3wpKlj.jpg)

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Armaguard on Tue, 11 August 2020, 07:21:38
08/11/2020
Ergo kits — Removed duplicate R2 PgUp & PgDn
Ergo kits — Changed row number on bottom R1 to R2
Ergo kits — Added 2 x 1U convex keys
Ergo kits — Changed R1 1.5U Menu to Alt
Ergo kits — Changed R3 1.5U Control to Backspace
Ergo kits — Changed R2 1.5U Caps Lock to Enter
Ergo kits — Replaced 4 x R1 2U blanks to convex.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/n3wpKlj.jpg)


Ergo set is now perfect. R3 backslash included in alphas kit so that's covered. Thank you for taking time to review and being flexible, fantastic work.

And text mods look great. If the text mod kit ends up in the GB, I'll definitely pick it up too.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 11 August 2020, 07:49:29
08/11/2020
Ergo kits — Removed duplicate R2 PgUp & PgDn
Ergo kits — Changed row number on bottom R1 to R2
Ergo kits — Added 2 x 1U convex keys
Ergo kits — Changed R1 1.5U Menu to Alt
Ergo kits — Changed R3 1.5U Control to Backspace
Ergo kits — Changed R2 1.5U Caps Lock to Enter
Ergo kits — Replaced 4 x R1 2U blanks to convex.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/n3wpKlj.jpg)


Ergo set is now perfect. R3 backslash included in alphas kit so that's covered. Thank you for taking time to review and being flexible, fantastic work.

And text mods look great. If the text mod kit ends up in the GB, I'll definitely pick it up too.

Thank you! Glad we ended up with something that is an improvement of earlier Ergo kits out there. Could not have done it without the support of you guys!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Muchacho on Tue, 11 August 2020, 07:57:06
salut!

French kits added.

<3 <3 <3

Didn't expect that!

Is UK kit also planned ?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 11 August 2020, 07:57:16
I think it would be clean AF, just didn't know if you were concerned about Minimal 2 comparisons since they did it and "Minimal" is their theme. But I'd personally love it.

I think that's fine. Nobody owns mono legends and they have been done before. I do find the enlarged numbers quite odd looking tho, but cool at the same time. Double edged sword sort of.

With the amount of kits I have going on already I might just wrap it up where we currently are. Or add one more, have not decided yet.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 11 August 2020, 07:58:59
salut!

French kits added.

<3 <3 <3

Didn't expect that!

Is UK kit also planned ?

Basic ISO coverage is already available. Sure the UK one could be broken out, but so could many other things in the kits. The idea is not dead but there are a few things to consider with the requests coming in.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Muchacho on Tue, 11 August 2020, 08:14:20
Basic ISO coverage is already available. Sure the UK one could be broken out, but so could many other things in the kits. The idea is not dead but there are a few things to consider with the requests coming in.

Oh, I didn't take a close look to the NORDEUK, thought it missed some from standard UK layout. Perfect then!

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Domantas on Tue, 11 August 2020, 12:00:30
I will probably will buy both wob and bow, if I have money. Or at least wob mods and bow alphas. This will be my first KAT profile keycaps
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: badbusinessman on Tue, 11 August 2020, 14:32:12
Looks great, def interested
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: stealthzero on Tue, 11 August 2020, 14:49:47
Cant wait to buy both BoW and WoB sets.   My wallet will be ready.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: stoffelduss on Wed, 12 August 2020, 04:55:46
08/11/2020
Ergo kits — Removed duplicate R2 PgUp & PgDn
Ergo kits — Changed row number on bottom R1 to R2
Ergo kits — Added 2 x 1U convex keys
Ergo kits — Changed R1 1.5U Menu to Alt
Ergo kits — Changed R3 1.5U Control to Backspace
Ergo kits — Changed R2 1.5U Caps Lock to Enter
Ergo kits — Replaced 4 x R1 2U blanks to convex.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/n3wpKlj.jpg)

aren't the top bracket keys still duplicates of the brackets in the alphas? and I'd prefer System over Alt for the bottom row 1.5u key, I would never put Alt in a corner like that.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Wed, 12 August 2020, 05:11:32
08/11/2020
Ergo kits — Removed duplicate R2 PgUp & PgDn
Ergo kits — Changed row number on bottom R1 to R2
Ergo kits — Added 2 x 1U convex keys
Ergo kits — Changed R1 1.5U Menu to Alt
Ergo kits — Changed R3 1.5U Control to Backspace
Ergo kits — Changed R2 1.5U Caps Lock to Enter
Ergo kits — Replaced 4 x R1 2U blanks to convex.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/n3wpKlj.jpg)

aren't the top bracket keys still duplicates of the brackets in the alphas? and I'd prefer System over Alt for the bottom row 1.5u key, I would never put Alt in a corner like that.

Yes, good catch they are actually duplicates. So we can shave down the kit with 2 more keys then. As for the System over Alt I dunno, keep seeing Alt being used there but if nobody minds we can change it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: blaqbern on Wed, 12 August 2020, 06:46:23
Your commitment to making this set as good as it can possibly be is really admirable. Thank you for all the time and effort!
This set is  living up to its moniker.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: lamonayon on Wed, 12 August 2020, 10:36:06
Totally agree to this!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: Adelscott on Wed, 12 August 2020, 15:02:14
In for a sh*t ton of kits ;D 

Thank you !
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Samples! | New kit updates are live! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 13 August 2020, 15:53:40
Looks great, def interested

Cant wait to buy both BoW and WoB sets.   My wallet will be ready.

Your commitment to making this set as good as it can possibly be is really admirable. Thank you for all the time and effort!
This set is  living up to its moniker.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Totally agree to this!

I will probably will buy both wob and bow, if I have money. Or at least wob mods and bow alphas. This will be my first KAT profile keycaps

Thank you so much guys!

In for a sh*t ton of kits ;D 

Thank you !

Who knew I would be making a Blackhawks fan happy one day  :cool:   .. thank you!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: wertqy on Thu, 13 August 2020, 16:20:50
oh that black is very nice I like that
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: ..//dexx on Fri, 14 August 2020, 05:19:58
I'm really looking forward to this. I never used a KAT profile before so this will be my first set. :thumb:
Just the number of dedicated kits is insane.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: Lord_Rabel on Sat, 15 August 2020, 02:45:20
Really interested. When the GB goes live, when do you think do the vendors ship them out?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: DJ Clicks on Sat, 15 August 2020, 03:39:52
If I want to mix BoW alphas with WoB mods on Alice layout, my extra B would be black, so can the extra B be included in the alphas instead?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: metr on Sat, 15 August 2020, 12:02:53
Have you considered vertically centering the up and down arrow legends to be consistent with the other modifiers, like they did with GMK Minimal 2? https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107868.0
I find it more logical and pleasing to look at but I am not sure if there is a reason for them to be top-aligned.

Sorry if this has been discussed already, I tried searching for it but didn't find anything.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: Kookiekurls on Sat, 15 August 2020, 23:32:38
Thank you for making this! Just hope the QC issues with KAT are resolved in time
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: SirTimmyTimbit on Sun, 16 August 2020, 05:19:27
Any chance you can do an accent kit with esc, enter and possibly spacebar?

I want BoW with black enter and escapes. Sort of like the Kuro Shiro look.

Don't have to support all the compats, just the major ones like 60/65/75/TKL.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: Bl4ck on Sun, 16 August 2020, 05:21:38
Any chance you can do an accent kit with esc, enter and possibly spacebar?

I want BoW with black enter and escapes. Sort of like the Kuro Shiro look.

Don't have to support all the compats, just the major ones like 60/65/75/TKL.

That doesn't really make sense, just get BoW and WoB kits.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: SirTimmyTimbit on Sun, 16 August 2020, 05:25:41
Well, I only need up to 5 keys. With KAT's kitting it's a little inefficient to get a whole mod kit ($50+) for just 5 keys. In fact I think most people would be fine with just Esc and Enter as people seem to prefer alpha colored spacebars.

Even if he combines both WoB and BoW accents (10 keys total) into one kit it'll still be cheaper than picking up a an extra mod kit.

I'm talking about these 5 keys in both BoW and WoB into one kit

(https://i.imgur.com/wEdkZLi.png) (https://i.imgur.com/wEdkZLi.png)


Edit: Forgot ISO enter.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: Bl4ck on Sun, 16 August 2020, 05:28:08
Well, I only need up to 5 keys. With KAT's kitting it's a little inefficient to get a whole mod kit ($50+) for just 5 keys.

Even if he combines both WoB and BoW accents (10 keys total) into one kit it'll still be cheaper than picking up a an extra mod kit.

I'm talking about these 5 keys in both BoW and WoB into one kit

(https://i.imgur.com/wEdkZLi.png) (https://i.imgur.com/wEdkZLi.png)

I see, while I still think its not necessary, I thought you wanted him to include accent keys in the main kits. This seems more reasonable but still.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: SirTimmyTimbit on Sun, 16 August 2020, 05:29:32
Well, I only need up to 5 keys. With KAT's kitting it's a little inefficient to get a whole mod kit ($50+) for just 5 keys.

Even if he combines both WoB and BoW accents (10 keys total) into one kit it'll still be cheaper than picking up a an extra mod kit.

I'm talking about these 5 keys in both BoW and WoB into one kit

(https://i.imgur.com/wEdkZLi.png) (https://i.imgur.com/wEdkZLi.png)

I see, while I still think its not necessary, I thought you wanted him to include accent keys in the main kits. This seems more reasonable but still.

Well I'd be fine with that too. I think it's a fairly cheap way to spice up a plain WoB or BoW whenever you feel like it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Sun, 16 August 2020, 05:31:34
I'm really looking forward to this. I never used a KAT profile before so this will be my first set. :thumb:
Just the number of dedicated kits is insane.

Thank you!

Really interested. When the GB goes live, when do you think do the vendors ship them out?

No idea to be honest. Lot's of variables going on with Covid-19, old QC issues that need to be correct and the ability to scale up workforce in these times. But I don't think we will see it before next summer.

If I want to mix BoW alphas with WoB mods on Alice layout, my extra B would be black, so can the extra B be included in the alphas instead?

No extra B's in Alpha. Sorry.

Have you considered vertically centering the up and down arrow legends to be consistent with the other modifiers, like they did with GMK Minimal 2? https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107868.0
I find it more logical and pleasing to look at but I am not sure if there is a reason for them to be top-aligned.

Sorry if this has been discussed already, I tried searching for it but didn't find anything.

It works better for Minimal since it is Text mods only and they are always centered in height. I run three different Mod versions so it does not work as well in this case.

Thank you for making this! Just hope the QC issues with KAT are resolved in time


Thank you too! Same here, will be watching the coming delivered sets closely.

Any chance you can do an accent kit with esc, enter and possibly spacebar?

I want BoW with black enter and escapes. Sort of like the Kuro Shiro look.

Don't have to support all the compats, just the major ones like 60/65/75/TKL.

Sorry but Refined is basically two sets released as one. Either WoB or BoW. You can mix and match of course if you want but the kits will not be mixed. Even if I wanted to add it, it is a slippery slope. The keys you requested won't be enough for others using other layouts or perhaps using other ways to implement accent keys. Hope you understand. Cheers!




Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: metr on Sun, 16 August 2020, 15:51:12
It works better for Minimal since it is Text mods only and they are always centered in height. I run three different Mod versions so it does not work as well in this case.

Thanks. What are the rules for when a mod should be centered? From what I can see, the icons for backspace, return, left, right, and command are centered, and the icons for caps lock, shift, up, and down are top-aligned. I appreciate the work your doing to refine the legends, I would just like to understand the design.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 17 August 2020, 15:04:36
It works better for Minimal since it is Text mods only and they are always centered in height. I run three different Mod versions so it does not work as well in this case.

Thanks. What are the rules for when a mod should be centered? From what I can see, the icons for backspace, return, left, right, and command are centered, and the icons for caps lock, shift, up, and down are top-aligned. I appreciate the work your doing to refine the legends, I would just like to understand the design.

Not only caps lock, shift, up & down but also all the alphas ;) Top aligned legends/icons are more common than non-top aligned legends so if one wants to be consistent then top aligned is better. This of course changes a bit if you do text/icon or text only. But you will still have a top aligned majority regardless.

Which is better? Highly subjective of course... That's why you have the new mod icon placement on some newer GMK sets. But a lot of people still prefer the OG way. If you look at a layout with OG icon mods I think it looks far better and more balanced than centered mods. But to each their own.

Rules around placement is pretty much the same as GMK has it. Anything pointing sideways OR is a word is centered. Everything else top aligned.

Hope that answered your questions. Keep them coming if you have more. Cheers!

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: metr on Mon, 17 August 2020, 21:09:05
Thanks for explaining the reasoning behind it! I’m looking forward to the group buy.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 18 August 2020, 12:59:03
New renders up! Will get back to the last bits of the kitting. Just needed a break.

(https://i.imgur.com/0R5fQ4r.jpg)
TX66 by TX Keyboard Inc

(https://i.imgur.com/gtUd1kg.jpg)
TX66 by TX Keyboard Inc
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: ..//dexx on Tue, 18 August 2020, 15:52:39
So clean.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: GSV-CargoCult on Tue, 18 August 2020, 15:54:53
Please can you separate out the UK ISO kit?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: OmniSzron on Tue, 18 August 2020, 16:57:37
BoW looks absolutely fresh and clean.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: hottrout on Wed, 19 August 2020, 03:37:23
Please can you separate out the UK ISO kit?

+1 for this.

The new renders are good, kit looks so clean, I can feel a lot of need for both WoB and BoW.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: Skok on Wed, 19 August 2020, 23:23:38
Wow, can't believe I didn't find this earlier. Will definitely be picking up the WoB set especially since KAT is so affordable. Glad to see a set with standard icons and legends.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 20 August 2020, 05:39:55
So for those of you who requested a mono kit, and there has been quite a few of you. I made the kit, and tried it out a few times and came to the conclusion I won't be doing it for Refined. It's kind of useless to be honest, and looks odd. So two things that I would not want to do in in Refined since that goes agains the overall concept of why Refined exists in the first place.

So that means the kitting is done. I will prepare some stuff this weekend and send it off to get price estimates. I will continue to tweak some legends the coming weeks while I wait for the new prototype caps and then everything should be good to go. Exciting! Thank you for your support and feedback so far, it has been invaluable!

(https://i.imgur.com/CRMqnQO.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: harlekein on Thu, 20 August 2020, 06:09:41
So for those of you who requested a mono kit, and there has been quite a few of you. I made the kit, and tried it out a few times and came to the conclusion I won't be doing it for Refined. It's kind of useless to be honest, and looks odd. So two things that I would not want to do in in Refined since that goes agains the overall concept of why Refined exists in the first place.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/CRMqnQO.jpg)


I understand your vision. I just want to see I always love the mono look. Also in this render.

Anyway, the amount of effort you put in is truly commendable. I will definitely be joining for both BoW and monochrome look.

Edit: One last question: KAT Hyperfuse had scooped homing keys included. These were introduced (or discovered?) recently. Can you please also include scooped homing keys in the alphas and Colevrak kits?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 20 August 2020, 06:19:14
So for those of you who requested a mono kit, and there has been quite a few of you. I made the kit, and tried it out a few times and came to the conclusion I won't be doing it for Refined. It's kind of useless to be honest, and looks odd. So two things that I would not want to do in in Refined since that goes agains the overall concept of why Refined exists in the first place.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/CRMqnQO.jpg)


I understand your vision. I just want to see I always love the mono look. Also in this render.

Anyway, the amount of effort you put in is truly commendable. I will definitely be joining for both BoW and monochrome look.

Edit: One last question: KAT Hyperfuse had scooped homing keys included. These were introduced (or discovered?) recently. Can you please also include scooped homing keys in the alphas and Colevrak kits?

Thank you!

I was originally planning on switching out the barred homing keys for scooped (would not do both) but since I am not doing centered legends I think there will be too much distortion on the legends. Deep sculpted caps like KAT plus scooped is not a combination I think will work well in this case. It is not something I will have time to test out before the GB and I really doubt it will work (assumption) so it won't be offered this time. Sorry.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: psxndc on Thu, 20 August 2020, 10:46:50
So for those of you who requested a mono kit, and there has been quite a few of you. I made the kit, and tried it out a few times and came to the conclusion I won't be doing it for Refined. It's kind of useless to be honest, and looks odd.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/CRMqnQO.jpg)


Thank you for at least considering it. Tbh, I totally disagree and think it looks rad, but everyone's opinion is different and it's your vision.

I'll echo Harlekein's comment - thank you so much for listening and considering feedback. The original concept was great to begin with and has really evolved into an amazing offering. The sets are *awesome* and I'll be getting at least one of each (including each colevrak ).
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 20 August 2020, 12:37:41
Here is my feedback for the kits. All row numbers are given using Keyreative's numbering scheme (R4 = number row, R1 = Shift and bottom row). It took a while to go through everything, so I hope it's not too late to make these adjustments :) In general, kits look good except for what's listed below.


Numpad kits

Alphas kits

NorDeUK kits

French kits

Spacebars kits

Mac kits

40s kits

Ortho kits

Ergo kits

Legends & other


Hope this helps.

Edit: deleted suggestion to remove 1.5u Shift from 40s; this key is used by UT47.2 and the upcoming Whimsy
Edit2: mentioned a few more boards that can use R3 2u Backspace
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: honoka on Thu, 20 August 2020, 12:49:29
bruh
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: UltimateDiver on Fri, 21 August 2020, 08:38:52
Is there any reason why the icon mods WoB and BoW don't have a R2 1.75u control key in it while the text mods and text/icon mods do have one? Or did i miss some changes to the kit where it's already in there?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 21 August 2020, 09:18:56
Is there any reason why the icon mods WoB and BoW don't have a R2 1.75u control key in it while the text mods and text/icon mods do have one? Or did i miss some changes to the kit where it's already in there?

Yes, the control icon is not offered in this set so that is why it is missing from the Icon mods kit.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: UltimateDiver on Fri, 21 August 2020, 09:48:03
Is there any reason why the icon mods WoB and BoW don't have a R2 1.75u control key in it while the text mods and text/icon mods do have one? Or did i miss some changes to the kit where it's already in there?

Yes, the control icon is not offered in this set so that is why it is missing from the Icon mods kit.

I get the reasoning behind that. But then I'm screwed because love icons and have control and caps swapped. And now I basically have to buy the entire text/icons or text mods text kit just for 1 control key because icons is the only mods kit it's not included in.

I hope it's not too late, but it would be great if you can still add it in.
The kit's looking great btw!

Edit: I don't know if swapping control and caps is common or not. Fair enough if it's a really niche thing to do and it unnecessarily adds to the kit. but then why have it in the other two mods kits?
 

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 21 August 2020, 09:55:22
I get the reasoning behind that. But then I'm screwed because love icons and have control and caps swapped. And now I basically have to buy the entire text/icons or text mods text kit just for 1 control key because icons is the only mods kit it's not included in.
I hope it's not too late, but it would be great if you can still add it in.

To be fair, there is no bottom row Caps Lock key either. Also, the icon is quite generic — there's nothing about it that inherently means “Caps Lock”, to be frank. I think you can use as a Control key without any issues. Some sets (e.g. GMK Rouge (https://i.imgur.com/sknZVvz.png)) don't include (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=104955.msg2873733#msg2873733) R3 1.75u “Control” at all for this exact reason.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: UltimateDiver on Fri, 21 August 2020, 10:00:14
I get the reasoning behind that. But then I'm screwed because love icons and have control and caps swapped. And now I basically have to buy the entire text/icons or text mods text kit just for 1 control key because icons is the only mods kit it's not included in.
I hope it's not too late, but it would be great if you can still add it in.

To be fair, there is no bottom row Caps Lock key either. Also, the icon is quite generic — there's nothing about it that inherently means “Caps Lock”, to be frank. I think you can use as a Control key without any issues. Some sets (e.g. GMK Rouge (https://i.imgur.com/sknZVvz.png)) don't include (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=104955.msg2873733#msg2873733) R3 1.75u “Control” at all for this exact reason.

Sounds like it makes sense. It just seems odd to me.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: lakeboredom on Fri, 21 August 2020, 10:16:30
+1 for adding icon Control to Icon Mods kits 
If anything do it for consistency, the other kits have an hhkb Control key.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: VellFlamm on Fri, 21 August 2020, 21:32:24
I really wish there were text mod for all layouts and a mono number row set.
I'd love to have the 40s and the ortho, but I am a text mod guy.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: hotnoodle666 on Sat, 22 August 2020, 08:04:39
This is the game changer for me. I like the look of KAT profile but not a fan of the big centered legengs ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Sun, 23 August 2020, 06:48:54
Here is my feedback for the kits. All row numbers are given using Keyreative's numbering scheme (R4 = number row, R1 = Shift and bottom row). It took a while to go through everything, so I hope it's not too late to make these adjustments :) In general, kits look good except for what's listed below.

Thank you for the extensive list of suggestions. Very appreciated. I have amended most of the fixes so I won't be replying to them here. Only the things that I don't think are so straight forward or things I don't agree with.



Alphas kits
  • The 7u spacebar could be moved back to Mods.
    • Sub-60% boards that use 7u are rare. I can think of just a couple: Cajal, Nightmare, The Ave. I may be missing one or two lesser-known boards, but I've checked with the 40% Discord and I think that's about all of them.
    • It might therefore make sense to drop 7u from Alphas to make the kit lighter for the majority of 40s, ortho and ergo users who don't need that key.
    • Note that this is not the case with 6.25u as there are many 40s boards that use this spacebar size.
    • On the other hand, it has been pointed out (thanks eski) that it'd be good if 7u stayed in Alphas for purposes of mixing BoW alphas with WoB mods (and vice-versa).
    • Action points: Optionally, move 7u spacebar from Alphas to Mods.
Yes just like you say it is for mixing WoB, BoW. Since I do not have accent kits I want to at least make it simple/cheap to mix with the current setup.



Mac kits
  • It seems odd to include icon R1 keys if the bottom row is always text-only.
    • This would make the bottom row look like: Control, Option, , <space>, , Option, Control.
    • Action points: If this isn't intended, remove R1 keys from Mac.

This was actually a request from several Mac users since it was text only from the start. They would rather have just that one icon rather than not. So I kept both text and icon version in there. So this one stays as is.



Ergo kits
  • Ergo kits — Changed row number on bottom R1 to R2
    Are you sure you made this change? The bottom row keys are still labeled R1 in the kits.
    • Most (all?) KAT sets with ergo kits so far have had the bottom row on the main clusters be R2.
    • I believe this is so that the bottom row would be more comfortable to type on, and also so that it would be level with the R2 keys on the thumb clusters.
    • Here is a photo (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5e/2c/fd/5e2cfdee6f3fba33d1eeccddbc7a1dbb.jpg) of an ErgoDox set that uses a R1 bottom row instead of R2 (granted, this is OEM profile). The bottom row sort of sticks out.
    • Action points: Change bottom row labels from R1 to R2 in Ergo.

There seems to be some disagreements on this. So will hold off for now and try to get this sorted asap. If any Ergo users here agree or disagree please voice your opinion.


Legends & other
  • There is a typographical inconsistency between the double quote and apostrophe legends.
    • The former uses curly quotes (”), while the latter uses a straight apostrophe (').
    • I would suggest changing the double quotes to be straight ("), not only for consistency, but also because that's what the key outputs on all layouts.
    • Action points: Change legends to ".
Correct. Both ways are actually common but it is not so common to mix them. I did this to distinguish them from eachother but you are correct, they should be using one style. Will fix this.


  • I would like to see System replace Code as the primary OS key legend in the mod kits (as is the case in 40s, Ortho and Ergo), but I understand if you don't want to change this as it's down to preference.
    • My (semi-objective) reasons for suggesting this are outlined here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106412.msg2907621#msg2907621) (§3).
    • Additionally, this would make all of the kits in the set consistent in their usage of System and Code keys. Consistency is good to have.
    • Action points: If you do want to make the change, swap the places of Code and System legends in Mods and Extra Mods (using Sys for 1u keys).
[/list]

I prefer System myself, and I also don't think the kits mentioned need to be aligned that way but I will think about what I do with this.
[/list]
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: Adelscott on Mon, 24 August 2020, 13:35:09
...

Do you know if scooped homing keys exist in KAT profile ? Is that something you would consider ? I love them in GMK.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: konstantin on Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:00:34
Do you know if scooped homing keys exist in KAT profile ? Is that something you would consider ? I love them in GMK.

One last question: KAT Hyperfuse had scooped homing keys included. These were introduced (or discovered?) recently. Can you please also include scooped homing keys in the alphas and Colevrak kits?

I was originally planning on switching out the barred homing keys for scooped (would not do both) but since I am not doing centered legends I think there will be too much distortion on the legends. Deep sculpted caps like KAT plus scooped is not a combination I think will work well in this case. It is not something I will have time to test out before the GB and I really doubt it will work (assumption) so it won't be offered this time. Sorry.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: Adelscott on Mon, 24 August 2020, 14:15:30
Do you know if scooped homing keys exist in KAT profile ? Is that something you would consider ? I love them in GMK.

One last question: KAT Hyperfuse had scooped homing keys included. These were introduced (or discovered?) recently. Can you please also include scooped homing keys in the alphas and Colevrak kits?

I was originally planning on switching out the barred homing keys for scooped (would not do both) but since I am not doing centered legends I think there will be too much distortion on the legends. Deep sculpted caps like KAT plus scooped is not a combination I think will work well in this case. It is not something I will have time to test out before the GB and I really doubt it will work (assumption) so it won't be offered this time. Sorry.

Thanks I missed it.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Domantas on Tue, 25 August 2020, 08:17:04
I will probably skip minimal and get this because this one feels more refined XD even though I am not sure I will like kat but I like work dedicated to it already! But if it better version of OEM, I will probably like it :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: Armaguard on Wed, 26 August 2020, 04:21:51

Ergo kits
  • Ergo kits — Changed row number on bottom R1 to R2
    Are you sure you made this change? The bottom row keys are still labeled R1 in the kits.
    • Most (all?) KAT sets with ergo kits so far have had the bottom row on the main clusters be R2.
    • I believe this is so that the bottom row would be more comfortable to type on, and also so that it would be level with the R2 keys on the thumb clusters.
    • Here is a photo (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5e/2c/fd/5e2cfdee6f3fba33d1eeccddbc7a1dbb.jpg) of an ErgoDox set that uses a R1 bottom row instead of R2 (granted, this is OEM profile). The bottom row sort of sticks out.
    • Action points: Change bottom row labels from R1 to R2 in Ergo.

There seems to be some disagreements on this. So will hold off for now and try to get this sorted asap. If any Ergo users here agree or disagree please voice your opinion.


I understand why you'd want to make it R2 to profile match the thumb cluster. But the argument about it being less comfortable to type on doesn't hold up for me personally. I almost exclusively use my thumbs on the thumb cluster so to me the additional angle of the bottom row would make it easier to hit with my fingers.
However to make it so that the caps are completely interchangeable from the bottom row to the thumb cluster and vice versa; that's probably the biggest reason I can see for having the profile as R2. This means that it will support significantly more potential configurations of the bottom row and thumb cluster.

Hopefully that makes sense!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Wed, 26 August 2020, 09:06:12
SEA proxy added!

Welcome HEXKeyboards.com ! Glad to have u along the ride.

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Kasterborous on Wed, 26 August 2020, 10:28:38
SEA proxy added!

Welcome HEXKeyboards.com ! Glad to have u along the ride.

Thanks :D
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Suavity on Wed, 26 August 2020, 19:07:10
Super glad that 3.00U keys are added in the space bar kit.  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 27 August 2020, 15:49:00
(https://i.imgur.com/U2wfQde.jpg)
Kotai by stewiedk97
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: KawabataLuis on Thu, 27 August 2020, 16:24:23
Looking dang good, looking a lot forward for this. Oof.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: SMW515 on Fri, 28 August 2020, 07:29:56
Please can you separate out the UK ISO kit?

+1 for this.

The new renders are good, kit looks so clean, I can feel a lot of need for both WoB and BoW.

Yeah definitely support UK ISO being split out, pushes me in the way of KAT Monochrome if not
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 28 August 2020, 08:36:20
Yeah definitely support UK ISO being split out, pushes me in the way of KAT Monochrome if not

We've reached my max amount of kits. I have tried to accomodate everyones wishes but there is a limit and the kits have been sent off for pricing already so not likely to see any changes unless an error somewhere is discovered. If UK is broken out, then why also not Germany, or the Nordics etc. The list goes on. You have basic ISO support available already.

Sorry but that's where we are at the moment. Hopefully u can accept that, if not go ahead with KAT Monochrome (threats won't make me change)  :cool:

Thank u!

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: vurtomatic on Fri, 28 August 2020, 21:33:41
 :)) :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: NoPunIn10Did on Mon, 31 August 2020, 14:50:51
For future reference (for folks reading this far), Ergo kits in KAT can use either R2 or R1 for the bottom row.  It's just important that the 1u keys in the thumb clusters be R2.

With R1, the bottom row gets a slightly more optimal sculpt.
With R2, the keys in the bottom row are interchangeable with those in the thumb clusters.

Note that if you go with R2 bottom row, double-check that you've included 2x R1 1u caps of some sort (for Ergodoxian boards that use 1u keys in the central columns).

Regardless of what you choose, the convex keys you supply with the kit will be technically R1, but their actual shape looks fine alongside either R1 or R2.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Last week for kit updates | GB in October 2020
Post by: dylan_k on Tue, 01 September 2020, 09:04:04
  • It would be nice to have R4 = for Mac users and those who like to put equals on their numpads.
    • Macs by default have R4 = on their keyboards.
    • See the kit examples linked above for this as well.
    • Action points: Add R4 1u = to Numpad.

Agreed. Too often the keysets' support for Macs ends with the modifiers. There are a few other differences, like the above. Also, media icons on the function row for example. I'd love to see those.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: pandaman97 on Thu, 03 September 2020, 21:43:43
Would be nice if have RGBY modifiers  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: hiddensong on Sat, 05 September 2020, 02:40:57
My stomach is growling! This looks sooooo delish, nomnomnomnomnomnom. 
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: Runningtarrens on Sun, 06 September 2020, 17:39:49
any chance to get a homing e into the colmak set?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Mon, 07 September 2020, 02:42:31
I was expecting the new sample caps around this time but I just heard back that they are delayed. We might not have them before the GB starts which is of course not ideal, all though pretty standard. I would have loved to have everything locked down before the GB started but that was maybe a bit optimistic. I will be working to get them in a perfect state of course and will share updates to the samples whenever I get them. And if I need to then we will do a third, fourth and fifth round of samples.

3 weeks left folks! Thank you!

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: vaf1en on Mon, 07 September 2020, 04:11:46
I will be working to get them in a perfect state of course and will share updates to the samples whenever I get them. And if I need to then we will do a third, fourth and fifth round of samples.
This dedication to getting things right is super reassuring to me – without doubt I am in on this set. :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: kevle123 on Mon, 07 September 2020, 19:33:48
Hey. Amazing design, I'm really looking forward to this next month. I was just wondering if there were any plans regarding alpha kits with hangul or japanese sublegends of some sort. Thanks.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 08 September 2020, 07:36:10
Would be nice if have RGBY modifiers  :rolleyes:

any chance to get a homing e into the colmak set?

Hey. Amazing design, I'm really looking forward to this next month. I was just wondering if there were any plans regarding alpha kits with hangul or japanese sublegends of some sort. Thanks.

Kits are locked down, so not in this round. Sorry  :cool:


I will be working to get them in a perfect state of course and will share updates to the samples whenever I get them. And if I need to then we will do a third, fourth and fifth round of samples.
This dedication to getting things right is super reassuring to me – without doubt I am in on this set. :)


Thank you!

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Tue, 08 September 2020, 07:36:46
Prices came in today. Looking very good I think. Will share as soon as I have them from all the vendors.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: hottrout on Tue, 08 September 2020, 13:51:37
Nice, looking forward to these sets.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Kitting finalized! | GB in October 2020
Post by: leavenember on Wed, 09 September 2020, 02:50:59
Sorry if this is a bit picky but the microphone in the tx66 render at the top of the first page is kinda sideways... just bothers me a little.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Wed, 09 September 2020, 14:45:25
(https://i.imgur.com/IQb2fzv.jpg)

First prices have been added. Will continue to update on the front page as I get the others.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: atnentec on Wed, 09 September 2020, 16:27:12
Just curious, what made you choose non-blank keys for the ergo kit? This seems to be common, but as an ergodox user myself I don't really understand it.

I have those keys mapped to all sorts of things on my ergodox, and I would assume that everyone maps theirs differently. Making a kit with legends that will actually match up with what the key is used for seems like kind of a futile effort.

With a blank set, there would be no need to have multiple variants of the same key, and I personally think that a blank key is better than a with a legend that doesn't match the function (maybe that's just me being crazy :P).

Do people just prefer the look of having legends even if they don't match the function?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 09 September 2020, 17:10:48
Just curious, what made you choose non-blank keys for the ergo kit? This seems to be common, but as an ergodox user myself I don't really understand it.

I have those keys mapped to all sorts of things on my ergodox, and I would assume that everyone maps theirs differently. Making a kit with legends that will actually match up with what the key is used for seems like kind of a futile effort.

With a blank set, there would be no need to have multiple variants of the same key, and I personally think that a blank key is better than a with a legend that doesn't match the function (maybe that's just me being crazy :P).

Do people just prefer the look of having legends even if they don't match the function?

There has been some amazing (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105714.0) research (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=102205.msg2806656#msg2806656) done on this topic. This set's ergo kit is based on that, as well as feedback from several ergo users.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: ..//dexx on Wed, 09 September 2020, 17:40:34
I'm so ready for this to go to GB. With the prices up, I might just have to pick up Alphas + Mods in both BoW and WoB. :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 10 September 2020, 01:13:27
Just curious, what made you choose non-blank keys for the ergo kit? This seems to be common, but as an ergodox user myself I don't really understand it.

I have those keys mapped to all sorts of things on my ergodox, and I would assume that everyone maps theirs differently. Making a kit with legends that will actually match up with what the key is used for seems like kind of a futile effort.

With a blank set, there would be no need to have multiple variants of the same key, and I personally think that a blank key is better than a with a legend that doesn't match the function (maybe that's just me being crazy :P).

Do people just prefer the look of having legends even if they don't match the function?

What Konstantin said.

But also, this set is white or black. You would end up with extremely plain blanks which at least for me makes no sense. I might as well not have the kit then. The solution I ended up with will not please all but in the end I think it is better to have it like this than not at all.

Thanks!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: atnentec on Thu, 10 September 2020, 02:01:51
Interesting! Didn't know there was this much research done on topic. Oh well, I guess I'm in the minority then :). Good luck with the GB!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 10 September 2020, 02:05:53
Interesting! Didn't know there was this much research done on topic. Oh well, I guess I'm in the minority then :). Good luck with the GB!

Actual data is a great way to make choices in a community where so many are very vocal about what they want. Thanks for considering though, cheers!

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: dibstern on Thu, 10 September 2020, 09:06:27
While I love the set, honestly WS2 seems nicer than the current colour? Who wants a darker white? Surprises me. It looks like WS2 fits the E-white board you have either rendered or taken a photo of better than the current colour. Like in the renders, that definitely looks like more of a WS2 white to me. I am colourblind though, so maybe someone else can comment?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 10 September 2020, 09:21:58
While I love the set, honestly WS2 seems nicer than the current colour? Who wants a darker white? Surprises me. It looks like WS2 fits the E-white board you have either rendered or taken a photo of better than the current colour. Like in the renders, that definitely looks like more of a WS2 white to me. I am colourblind though, so maybe someone else can comment?

I think many prefer WS1 to WS2. For GMK the option (WS2) has been around forever but so far only two (?) sets have used it (of which one has not been delivered yet) so at least that tells me something. That was not the deciding factor though but WS2 will be harder to match with e-white since the many of them actually have a bit yellow in them rather than being white with a blue tone. You should not stare at renders to make that call but look at physical caps and boards, in real life. The GMK WS2 I have at home does not fit my e-white board. It looked like someone bleached half their teeth and forgot the rest  ;D

What I chose is between ws1 and ws2. It's a very neutral white. I think it looks great on Milkshake personally.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 10 September 2020, 09:25:14
While I love the set, honestly WS2 seems nicer than the current colour? Who wants a darker white? Surprises me. It looks like WS2 fits the E-white board you have either rendered or taken a photo of better than the current colour. Like in the renders, that definitely looks like more of a WS2 white to me. I am colourblind though, so maybe someone else can comment?

WS1, in my eyes, is not a "subtle cream".
I personally think it fits way better on an e-white board than WS2, for example.
WS1 is still considered "white", just not as "cold" as WS2.

Here's an example of WS1 (GMK Minimal) on an e-white Polaris:

Show Image
(https://i.redd.it/2h7kt5ie8cq41.jpg)


I think that fits wonderful.

Agree. E-white finishes can vary from manu to manu and from keyboard to keyboard, but in my experience it's usually closer to WS1 than WS2. I think Keyreative's stock white (the one used in KAT Alpha and KAT Milkshake) might be an even better match to your average e-white finish than WS1 is.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: dRpkebs on Thu, 10 September 2020, 19:02:58
Not sure if this has been asked, but what is the difference between KAT Refined and KAT Monochrome?

They both pretty much look the same to me.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: DuellM on Thu, 10 September 2020, 19:03:56
Not sure if this has been asked, but what is the difference between KAT Refined and KAT Monochrome?

They both pretty much look the same to me.
Blasphemy .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: MelonBred on Thu, 10 September 2020, 20:57:53
Very stoked for this. Also, very happy to see 2x 3u in the spacebar kit!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: euphxenos on Fri, 11 September 2020, 01:08:32
Not sure if this has been asked, but what is the difference between KAT Refined and KAT Monochrome?

They both pretty much look the same to me.

Take a closer look at the legends.  For example, notice that the alphas for KAT Monochrome have a character in a large font in the center of the key, and in KAT Refined the legend on the same alpha key is in a smaller font in the upper left corner.  KAT Monochrome's legends are typical of Keyreative sets, while KAT Refined is trying to be a KAT set that has legends that look as much as GMK's as possible.  If you compare the legends on any key in KAT Refined to the corresponding key in either KAT Monochrome or in any GMK set, you'll probably see that it looks more like the GMK legend than the other KAT set's legend.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: dRpkebs on Fri, 11 September 2020, 12:59:54
Well it definitely looks like I'm in!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: MacSurfy on Fri, 11 September 2020, 15:30:19
Not sure if this has been asked, but what is the difference between KAT Refined and KAT Monochrome?

They both pretty much look the same to me.

 :confused:

Very stoked for this. Also, very happy to see 2x 3u in the spacebar kit!

Well it definitely looks like I'm in!

Thank you!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: Locky333 on Sun, 13 September 2020, 03:36:26
First of all, this is my first comment. Second, I want to thank you for including NORDEUK. This is the first keycap set im buying. Black mods, white alfas. Soo nice!

Are those ABS doubleshot or PBT dyesub?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: Hell-es on Sun, 13 September 2020, 04:06:16
KAT is Pbt DyeSub
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: ethercy on Sun, 13 September 2020, 23:53:05
I'd like to go full black with white enter+esc. Any chance making that an option without buying both entire sets?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: dibstern on Mon, 14 September 2020, 22:22:29
While I love the set, honestly WS2 seems nicer than the current colour? Who wants a darker white? Surprises me. It looks like WS2 fits the E-white board you have either rendered or taken a photo of better than the current colour. Like in the renders, that definitely looks like more of a WS2 white to me. I am colourblind though, so maybe someone else can comment?

I think many prefer WS1 to WS2. For GMK the option (WS2) has been around forever but so far only two (?) sets have used it (of which one has not been delivered yet) so at least that tells me something. That was not the deciding factor though but WS2 will be harder to match with e-white since the many of them actually have a bit yellow in them rather than being white with a blue tone. You should not stare at renders to make that call but look at physical caps and boards, in real life. The GMK WS2 I have at home does not fit my e-white board. It looked like someone bleached half their teeth and forgot the rest  ;D

What I chose is between ws1 and ws2. It's a very neutral white. I think it looks great on Milkshake personally.

Epic, thanks mate!!

P.S. This looks so damn bloody good. I am so damn keen on the Planck render, it makes me sick. I curse how long it takes for keycaps to be made. Thank god KAT is faster than GMK!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: dibstern on Mon, 14 September 2020, 22:27:25
Not sure if this has been asked, but what is the difference between KAT Refined and KAT Monochrome?

They both pretty much look the same to me.

 :confused:


Don't sweat it my dude, this looks so much better than KAT Monochrome IMO. This is what KAT Monochrome wishes it was, it's so much classier and is so different to what is already out there - I much prefer the legends on Refined. Apologies to JSaintS (who designed KAT Monochrome), I don't mean to throw shade, it's just my preference!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: Patates on Wed, 16 September 2020, 00:23:25
Been following this IC quietly, but after looking at the prices and kits offered, I'm in for a BoW Alpha and Text Mod set. from a general 60% layout user, I love the variety available. Would've liked to see a row 1 Delete key, but that's really only for GK64 layout. Anyway looking forward to this!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: Krzew on Wed, 16 September 2020, 15:03:20
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/IQb2fzv.jpg)


First prices have been added. Will continue to update on the front page as I get the others.

what does 54K MOQ mean? i dont believe its 54 thousand MOQ
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 16 September 2020, 15:31:29
what does 54K MOQ mean? i dont believe its 54 thousand MOQ

It is. The way that Keyreative MOQs work is based on the total number of keys/units ordered. Every kit has a unit count (1u + 2u + 6.25u + ...). 54k means the minimum order quantity for the set to be produced is 54 thousand units.

Among other things, the lack of per-kit MOQs is what makes it feasible for sets to include kits for obscure layouts that you don't usually see in other profiles.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: Nessism on Wed, 16 September 2020, 18:30:34
I'm excited for this set and plan to order.  My son wants some too. 

I wish there was options for mixed color F row keys without having to order both black and white sets.  Yes, a quibble.  I want to mix the two colors like the photo on the website shows. :cool:
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 17 September 2020, 05:19:58
I wish there was options for mixed color F row keys without having to order both black and white sets.  Yes, a quibble.  I want to mix the two colors like the photo on the website shows. :cool:

Thankfully the F keys are split out into a separate kit, so you don't have to pay for an entire second mods kit, just a small F keys kit :)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: Krzew on Thu, 17 September 2020, 08:40:17
what does 54K MOQ mean? i dont believe its 54 thousand MOQ

It is. The way that Keyreative MOQs work is based on the total number of keys/units ordered. Every kit has a unit count (1u + 2u + 6.25u + ...). 54k means the minimum order quantity for the set to be produced is 54 thousand units.

Among other things, the lack of per-kit MOQs is what makes it feasible for sets to include kits for obscure layouts that you don't usually see in other profiles.
oh, that's interesting. thanks for answering!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: afynyth on Tue, 29 September 2020, 18:27:47
I'm not sure if this has already been asked and how it would work, but will this font be made available to other KAT keyset designers in the future? It would be cool to see other KAT profile sets with this font in different colorways, and I'm sure others would appreciate it as well (I also find the default KAT centered legends too large and out of place).

In the meantime, definitely picking up a set in 2 days!
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - Pricing added! | GB starts on Oct 1st 2020
Post by: bamblerow on Wed, 30 September 2020, 01:15:35
It would be cool to see other KAT profile sets with this font in different colorways

Here to +1 this idea. I like the colorway of refined, but am absolutely in love with the font and non-center letters.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: rsvnh on Wed, 30 September 2020, 06:59:29
It would be cool to see other KAT profile sets with this font in different colorways

Here to +1 this idea. I like the colorway of refined, but am absolutely in love with the font and non-center letters.

Oh man a KAT "Mr. Sleeves" would be lit.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: A.Belousov on Wed, 30 September 2020, 07:07:43
Oh yes, mr.Sleeves would be awesome. Great idea
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: MacSurfy on Thu, 01 October 2020, 04:25:28
GB thread is avaiting approval. This one will be locked soon.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: FunBox on Thu, 01 October 2020, 04:41:45
It's finally here! I've dubbed today as KAT Refined day! Of thread closes before this goes through I would just like to thank you for all your hard work.
I can't wait to give this profile a try ʘ‿ʘ

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: KingOfMemes on Thu, 01 October 2020, 12:41:18
Lawd have mercy

(https://i.imgur.com/yZ3LnO2.png)
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: Scanna88 on Thu, 01 October 2020, 14:43:54
Why i can' t find them on MyKeyboard?  :'(
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: rsvnh on Thu, 01 October 2020, 15:04:34
Why i can' t find them on MyKeyboard?  :'(

https://mykeyboard.eu/catalogue/category/group-buys/kat-refined_347/
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: RoyalRuby on Thu, 01 October 2020, 15:59:59
This is my first time buying a key cap set. I have a 65% Varmilo board so the only kits I'll need are alphas and mods, correct?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: bamblerow on Thu, 01 October 2020, 16:33:30
This is my first time buying a key cap set. I have a 65% Varmilo board so the only kits I'll need are alphas and mods, correct?

Yes that is correct.

The mods kit handles your 6 r1 1.25u ctrl/alts/etc for the bottom row, and your r4/r3 ins/del/pgD/pgU too.
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: f8-andbethere on Thu, 01 October 2020, 18:08:57
Have been lurking this for a while now and am definitely in for both WoB and BoW. Just have to make the tough call on whether to go text or icon mods...

Also, did we ever get a sample showing how the WoB dyesub is going to look?
Title: Re: [IC] KAT Refined - GB starts tomorrow!
Post by: Mekberg on Fri, 02 October 2020, 03:01:16
Just got my GMK Firefly yesterday, and today I'm buying KAT Refined. Feels good to support my local creators :D