Post by: openkeydesign on Sun, 22 November 2020, 09:42:38
Less But Better
A cherry profile dyesub keycap set
(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/oBhEmTsl8edvMS5.jpg)
Hi, this is Killer from OpenkeyDesign. And we are a group of keyboard enthusiasts. We got a lot of inspirations from Dieter Rams' design so we decide to design our first keycap set as a tribute.
Here are the kits
(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/Qmq941nHk3NVREv.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/1ph8DaACtqIoHbU.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/pF4aAGZ9nXmEc3x.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/LWmjz23kZ9X7tnh.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/DZzGxXgVbUdfyvh.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/QfIved7V8wo5CzT.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/6YLW7tMBko4xSdQ.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/NjfxtmCBDFMiyck.jpg)
(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/1ph8DaACtqIoHbU.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/pF4aAGZ9nXmEc3x.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/LWmjz23kZ9X7tnh.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/DZzGxXgVbUdfyvh.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/QfIved7V8wo5CzT.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/6YLW7tMBko4xSdQ.jpg)
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(https://i.loli.net/2020/11/22/NjfxtmCBDFMiyck.jpg)
We are still working on the renderings with keyboards, so please give us some more time. And we may not have time to reply you all, but your comments and suggestions will make this keycap set better. Thank you very much!
Renderings
Please be noticed that these renderings are just for illustration purposes only. We will put more work on details with EPBT next.
(https://i.loli.net/2020/12/02/DdfJBMjyu1SHcaG.jpg)
(https://i.loli.net/2020/12/03/Z3YjcFJthq5CPyL.jpg)
Thanks to Hineybush, we use most of mx keycap 3D models made by him.
Manufacturer: EPBT
Vendor: kbdfans
GB Date: TBD
History Log:
[2020/11/22]Initial IC was submitted .
[2020/11/29]Manufacturer and Vendor were confirmed.
[2020/12/2]Update renderings.
Post by: hali on Sun, 22 November 2020, 09:45:01
Post by: yoot on Sun, 22 November 2020, 09:49:17
Post by: cijanzen on Sun, 22 November 2020, 09:50:01
Post by: Janoma on Sun, 22 November 2020, 09:52:10
Looks nice, not really digging the novelties.
Post by: hayt on Sun, 22 November 2020, 10:09:50
Post by: nico.psd on Sun, 22 November 2020, 10:10:56
Post by: gnho on Sun, 22 November 2020, 10:27:53
Post by: mengsicheng on Sun, 22 November 2020, 10:36:33
Post by: Fearian on Sun, 22 November 2020, 10:52:15
One problem for me: The R2 Pg Up key for 65 & 75% boards is missing it's corresponding R3 Pg Down! I would like to see a 75% compatible "Home, PgUp, PgDown, End" stack in the extras. Having 3 novelty sets but not supporting 65% feels like this is more concept than function.
Post by: ggggggg on Sun, 22 November 2020, 10:52:42
Post by: lush_bunny on Sun, 22 November 2020, 10:55:09
Post by: Jefff on Sun, 22 November 2020, 10:56:35
Post by: packman86 on Sun, 22 November 2020, 11:03:42
:thumb:
Post by: Macmutant on Sun, 22 November 2020, 11:51:18
Post by: wolverine92 on Sun, 22 November 2020, 12:11:05
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Post by: Disintro on Sun, 22 November 2020, 12:17:35
Post by: prkns on Sun, 22 November 2020, 12:44:46
Post by: treeleaf64 on Sun, 22 November 2020, 13:36:16
Post by: Lenux on Sun, 22 November 2020, 13:45:58
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Post by: macclack on Sun, 22 November 2020, 18:27:18
Post by: iindigo on Sun, 22 November 2020, 19:53:58
Post by: samanth on Sun, 22 November 2020, 20:03:36
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
Post by: santela on Sun, 22 November 2020, 20:45:58
Post by: MIGHTY CHICKEN on Sun, 22 November 2020, 21:03:13
seems like a lot though shrugs
Post by: Dafraz117 on Sun, 22 November 2020, 22:01:42
Id love to see the brown and/or green accents replaced with red or cream or light grey as they are colors he used quite often in his designs. I can only think of the calculator keys being the one time he used brown and a forest green (not a bright green). Red is also quite prominent in his own home office which you can see on YouTube: Maybe I’m wrong though.
One way could be to add mods kit with red or orange legends and a light grey background as light grey is often used in his designs. Not sure if that would look weird or not.
Would love to hear what color the keycaps would be as I think getting the right color would be important for this set. The color chosen reminds me of his 606 universal shelving system which is a nice choice.
Love everything else about the kits great work. I’ll be in for all kits no matter what you decide.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Dafraz117 on Sun, 22 November 2020, 22:04:17
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Post by: keebieweeb on Sun, 22 November 2020, 23:14:56
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Post by: EURA on Mon, 23 November 2020, 00:52:25
Post by: santela on Mon, 23 November 2020, 02:42:12
Post by: i luv chuletas on Mon, 23 November 2020, 02:44:42
Would love to see a kit for icon mods or text mods at least, otherwise beautiful work on the set man.
Post by: directheatedtriode on Mon, 23 November 2020, 06:00:44
Post by: ddrfraser1 on Mon, 23 November 2020, 06:45:18
Post by: Dafraz117 on Mon, 23 November 2020, 07:07:24
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Post by: UberPlatypus on Mon, 23 November 2020, 07:33:07
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Post by: Vhawk on Mon, 23 November 2020, 10:33:01
Post by: xiaoxiaoQAQ on Tue, 24 November 2020, 03:08:31
Post by: hottrout on Tue, 24 November 2020, 05:08:19
Post by: kohalified on Tue, 24 November 2020, 20:27:14
Post by: CrlaoSvloadr on Tue, 24 November 2020, 21:22:09
Wonderful looking set, getting all the things the others didn't- and for that I am absolutely looking forward to this set!
Great job and hope to hear more from this thread!
Post by: juice_pouch on Tue, 24 November 2020, 23:22:41
Post by: konstantin on Wed, 25 November 2020, 04:48:16
Post by: openkeydesign on Sun, 29 November 2020, 09:09:08
This looks pretty good. Any info on manufacturer?
Thank you. We just confirmed the manufacturer.
Post by: openkeydesign on Sun, 29 November 2020, 09:13:43
Really nice design. I do dig the novelties, but I think you will have to show them in situ to sell people on it.
One problem for me: The R2 Pg Up key for 65 & 75% boards is missing it's corresponding R3 Pg Down! I would like to see a 75% compatible "Home, PgUp, PgDown, End" stack in the extras. Having 3 novelty sets but not supporting 65% feels like this is more concept than function.
We will try to improve that next. Thank you for your suggestion.
Post by: openkeydesign on Mon, 30 November 2020, 07:34:43
Extra B for Alice / em7 like layouts pls.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
Extra B will be added.
Post by: mengsicheng on Mon, 30 November 2020, 08:02:17
Post by: LeoZ on Mon, 30 November 2020, 10:04:44
Post by: openkeydesign on Wed, 02 December 2020, 01:52:34
Post by: bansheetango on Wed, 02 December 2020, 02:08:15
Post by: GentooSG on Wed, 02 December 2020, 02:34:38
Personally not the biggest fan of grey on white, but I get the look. I'd go for a different typeface and pick either all symbols or all text for mods.
Post by: Charks! on Wed, 02 December 2020, 02:51:12
Post by: openkeydesign on Wed, 02 December 2020, 09:35:33
I think there's some jumble up on the R1,R2 etc indicator in Base kit picture...can you double confirm?
Yes. Thank you. We will make it right in the next version.
Post by: Techlet on Wed, 02 December 2020, 12:41:06
Is this an issue with the renders or are the keys meant to be like this?
Post by: openkeydesign on Wed, 02 December 2020, 23:06:37
No EU vendors? :(
Kbdfans could accept orders from EU I think.
Post by: bansheetango on Thu, 03 December 2020, 04:05:00
Post by: spamnyams on Thu, 03 December 2020, 10:02:04
Post by: Prestley on Thu, 03 December 2020, 22:29:35
Post by: Convergence on Fri, 04 December 2020, 20:06:40
I do share the sentiment that an EU vendor would be much appreciated, importing can be a nightmare.
Post by: whirlwind on Fri, 04 December 2020, 23:47:08
No EU vendors? :(
Kbdfans could accept orders from EU I think.
What do you mean "you think"?
Did you not try to find any EU vendors for us and by assuming that we can order from KBDfans that will magically solve your problem? Are you aware we pay import tax from vendors such as KBDfans?
If that's the case, I'm voting with my wallet and I will not buy this set I think.
Sent from my XQ-AS52 using Tapatalk
Post by: Ry0t@ on Sun, 06 December 2020, 08:09:53
Post by: clackeys on Sun, 06 December 2020, 17:32:41
Post by: dibkib on Thu, 10 December 2020, 02:37:26
Post by: PHYLO on Wed, 16 December 2020, 10:07:00
Post by: loop | esc lab on Wed, 16 December 2020, 12:28:54
I had some other thoughts last night. Very excited with the idea and a lot of good stuff here. But a few more ideas...Dieter rams was very against using anything that was not needed aka less is more. One of his ten design principles is that it uses as little design as possible. I understand the novelties and less kits are inspired by his other designs but are they betraying his design ethos? For example I don’t think putting a speaker design on a key would be something he would do because it does not involve the function. I also think it would be very unlikely that he would put a quote like “less is more on keys”. I think the idea of novelties in general to dieter would be frowned upon. So I think the less and novelties kits are not in line with his design philosophies if that is your aim. But I see what you were doing by taking his design ideas for things like speakers and putting them on keys. So it depends on what direction you want to go. Finally if you get rid of the novelties(less/novelties) then I think with the other kits capital alphas would seem quite strange as the mods are lower case and I love the the lower case look very cool. Just some more ideas... really excited for this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I love the intention of this set as a fellow Dieter fan, but I agree that this could use improvements in terms of aligning with his 10 principles.
I'll offer some thoughts once I grab some coffee..
Post by: nettik on Wed, 16 December 2020, 13:59:09
Do you really need capitalized alphas if everything else is lowercase? I get some people might want all caps, but if literally all the mods are lowercase, the contrast is not going to look nice.
The novelty with six lines (I'm assuming that's a speaker grill or something?) is way too heavy in comparison to the rest of the set. Best example of what I mean is that first picture in your post - if you look at it from a glance, everything else looks the same uniform and pleasing weight except for those caps. It draws too much of your attention. Also the fact that I can't tell what it is tells you it's not a good idea for a novelty. I'm also not personally into the novelties (I keep misreading the 'but better' keycap as butter for some reason) but that might change with more renders.
Are you sure EPBT is the best choice for this set? EPBT caps can be blurry and I don't think it will work well for this font.
Post by: loop | esc lab on Wed, 16 December 2020, 20:32:36
I do want to preface that I understand this is your interpretation of Dieter Ram's design principles -- it's your creative direction to do it however way you like. There's no right answer, so only take what I say as suggestions. His principles are guidelines, not rules. Great designers break them every day. Design would be boring as hell if there was only one way to do things.
But let's get get to the feedback.
1. Legibility
I think this is the biggest issue with your set right now. I understand the intent to use what I am guessing is Helvetica Neue Light (or even Ultralight) in your legends. But the legibility is incredibly low, even after I expand the image. I'm not a fan of lower case fonts for legends. If you look at the Magic Keyboard from Apple (which is heavily inspired by Rams' work, and also a keyboard I own), they use all-caps + centered legends for alphas. The font weight is also higher, although not as thick as default GMK fonts.
While Helvetica Neue Light/UL is a very aesthetically pleasing weight, it was never intended for great legibility. You'll rarely see it used in places where readability matters (and in legends, it matters). It's often used as an accent font, or in large illustrations.
Suggestion: Capitalize the legends (to increase consistency of legibility) + increase the font weight.
2. Attention to detail
From my cursory look into all your individual sets, I found a few instances where legends aren't properly horizontally and vertically centered. This is something you must fix. For a set inspired by Rams, you really shouldn't be violating "design is thorough down to the last detail".
3. Novelties
I can see you spent a lot of time on the novelties and they look beautiful.
However, I'm personally not a fan of novelties. One of Dieter's design principles (of the 10) is that "design makes a product useful", "design makes a product understandable", and "is unobtrusive". I see that you are borrowing details from some of his most popular products as an homage to his iconic designs, but in doing so, violates those principles because they don't add anything to the design other than as an aesthetic homage. Rams aims not to add design for just the sake of design (such as purely aesthetic choices). There's few reasons to have those design details in the novelties.
Suggestion: Dig deeper into the 10 design principles, and really explore what would make sense as novelties.
4. Color dots
As an opposite, I think the color dots makes sense - they are both aesthetically pleasing and useful. The dots will replace keys that have axillary uses that aren't labeled. They let the user define the utility. It's both aesthetically pleasing and serves as a function. I love them. Good work here.
5. less
This is the one group that I am really not a fan of. The text "less, but better" serves as a complete anti-thesis to what the text itself is trying to say. By adding that text, you aren't introducing less, nor are you adding anything better to the design. Dieter himself would never add text like this into his designs. Never.
Suggestion: Remove this.
6. Manufacturing
Let's say you do choose to go ahead with manufacturing (and it seems like you have, considering you've already chose ePBT), the legibility will be my biggest concern. ePBT is quite flexible when it comes to the type of designs + fonts, so it'll be better for you, but I would order samples of the Helvetica Neue Thin/Ultrathin to make sure the print does not bleed, and/or is legible.
Suggestion: Order samples and make sure readability is emphasized.
7. IC post suggestion
Due to the small font weight + lots of whitespace in your renders -- I found it quite hard to get a read of your keycap set in general. I would reduce the whitespace in your renders more, so people don't have to zoom into each picture as much.
Your hero shot (the first image with all the renders at once) is essentially unreadable even while the image is expanded.
I would personally also take out the "less, but better" in every render. I understand this is the name of your keycap set, but it's a little redundant and even stretches into corniness when overused.
I would also start both a Discord and Instagram account. The former helps you build your community and provide instant updates to your supporters. Instagram helps you build an audience for your set. A design language like this will get you quite a good number of followers if you keep your posts consistent.
Suggestions: Reduce the white space in your renders so us readers can quickly scan your IC post with minimal interaction. Start a community via Discord and IG.
All in all, I think your IC is very very polished. My feedback does not take away the effort + heart you put into this design.
I actually tend to write a lot when I see something that has a lot of potential but can use a bit of a push to become even better. I especially love the small Rams details you included in the IC such as the radio dial-type design details that is signature to his style.
Rams' design principles are like he says.. principles. They're not rules. Some of the best design in the world may not even follow close to Rams' work. It is up to you, the designer, to make these design choices. But since you said you are designing something inspired by Rams, I applied my feedback through the lens of his principles.
Really looking forward to what you do moving forward and any further updates.
GLWIC.
loop @ esc lab
Post by: Jefff on Wed, 16 December 2020, 21:06:26
First of all, kudos for all the effort you put into both the keycap set design + the IC. Lots of attention to detail and illustration efforts.
I do want to preface by me understanding this is your interpretation of Dieter Ram's design principles -- it's your creative direction to do it however way you like. There's no right answer, so only take what I say as suggestions.
1. Legibility
I think this is the biggest issue with your set right now. I understand the intent to use what I am guessing is Helvetica Neue Light (or even Ultralight) in your legends. But the legibility is incredibly low, even after I expand the image. I'm not a fan of lower case fonts for legends. If you look at the Magic Keyboard from Apple (which is heavily inspired by Rams' work, and also a keyboard I own), they use all-caps + centered legends for alphas. The font weight is also higher, although not as thick as default GMK fonts.
While Helvetica Neue Light/UL is a very aesthetically pleasing weight, it was never intended for great legibility. You'll rarely see it used in places where readability matters (and in legends, it matters). It's often used as an accent font, or in large illustrations.
Suggestion: Capitalize the legends (to increase consistency of legibility) + increase the font weight.
2. Attention to detail
From my cursory look into all your individual sets, I found a few instances where legends aren't properly horizontally and vertically centered. This is something you must fix. For a set inspired by Rams, you really shouldn't be violating "design is thorough down to the last detail".
3. Novelties
I can see you spent a lot of time on the novelties and they look beautiful.
However, I'm personally not a fan of novelties. One of Dieter's design principles (of the 10) is that "design makes a product useful", "design makes a product understandable", and "is unobtrusive". I see that you are borrowing details from some of his most popular products as an homage to his iconic designs, but in doing so, violates those principles because they don't add anything to the design other than as an aesthetic homage. Rams aims not to add design for just the sake of design (such as purely aesthetic choices). There's few reasons to have those design details in the novelties.
Suggestion: Dig deeper into the 10 design principles, and really explore what would make sense as novelties.
4. Color dots
As an opposite, I think the color dots makes sense - they are both aesthetically pleasing and useful. The dots will replace keys that have axillary uses that aren't labeled. They let the user define the utility. It's both aesthetically pleasing and serves as a function. I love them. Good work here.
5. less
This is the one group that I am really not a fan of. The text "less, but better" serves as a complete anti-thesis to what the text itself is trying to say. By adding that text, you aren't introducing less, nor are you adding anything better to the design. Dieter himself would never add text like this into his designs. Never.
Suggestion: Remove this.
6. Manufacturing
Let's say you do choose to go ahead with manufacturing (and it seems like you have, considering you've already chose ePBT), the legibility will be my biggest concern. ePBT is quite flexible when it comes to the type of designs + fonts, so it'll be better for you, but I would order samples of the Helvetica Neue Thin/Ultrathin to make sure the print does not bleed, and/or is legible.
Suggestion: Order samples and make sure readability is emphasized.
7. IC post suggestion
Due to the small font weight + lots of whitespace in your renders -- I found it quite hard to get a read of your keycap set in general. I would reduce the whitespace in your renders more, so people don't have to zoom into each picture as much.
Your hero shot (the first image with all the renders at once) is essentially unreadable even while the image is expanded.
I would personally also take out the "less, but better" in every render. I understand this is the name of your keycap set, but it's a little redundant and even stretches into corniness when overused.
I would also start both a Discord and Instagram account. The former helps you build your community and provide instant updates to your supporters. Instagram helps you build an audience for your set. A design language like this will get you quite a good number of followers if you keep your posts consistent.
Suggestions: Reduce the white space in your renders so us readers can quickly scan your IC post with minimal interaction. Start a community via Discord and IG.
All in all, I think your IC is very very polished. My feedback does not take away the effort + heart you put into this design.
I actually tend to write a lot when I see something that has a lot of potential but can use a bit of a push to become even better. I especially love the small Rams details you included in the IC such as the radio dial-type design details that is signature to his style.
Rams' design principles are like he says.. principles. They're not rules. Some of the best design in the world may not even follow close to Rams' work. It is up to you, the designer, to make these design choices. But since you said you are designing something inspired by Rams, I applied my feedback through the lens of his principles.
Really looking forward to what you do moving forward and any further updates.
GLWIC.
loop @ esc lab
Great feedback!
Post by: _rubik on Wed, 16 December 2020, 22:25:37
Post by: ryukomatoi on Mon, 21 December 2020, 15:08:19
I will agree that it may not be easy for ePBT to implement the thin fonts. If it can be executed, then great. If not, I honestly wouldn't mind the legends to be bolder.
I do appreciate the "less but better" concept, however I feel that the design aesthetic doesn't completely follow. My only gripe is the modifiers. When modifiers have both symbols and legends, it just looks too busy in my opinion. To respect the less-but-better concept, I feel that it should only have one or the other, not both. A nice example would be to take a look at ePBT's GoK x BoW keycap set.
Regardless, I look forward to see new renders and sample keycaps. Having mentioned the GoK x BoW set, you can already tell that I'm a sucker for a WS2 white keycaps with CR legends, especially made by ePBT.
Post by: Jacki on Mon, 21 December 2020, 15:12:19
Post by: mrvco on Sun, 27 December 2020, 14:57:18
Post by: geveent on Sun, 27 December 2020, 19:19:01
Post by: Casserole on Sun, 27 December 2020, 21:13:09
Post by: PerforatedBinderPaper on Sun, 27 December 2020, 22:10:00
Post by: cogitoergofemme on Wed, 30 December 2020, 22:00:33
Post by: santela on Thu, 31 December 2020, 00:59:22
I have to say, I am still concerned by the thin legends. I am not sure if ePBT will be able to do this level of detail considering their previous issues with regular thickness legends. Regardless, I will be pleasantly surprised if it does actually come out properly. good luck!
Same. Given how thin these lines are, I am pretty doubtful.
Post by: Corruto on Thu, 14 January 2021, 04:36:57