geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: loki993 on Fri, 23 June 2023, 10:24:59
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I've had a Leopold FC750R with Cherry Red switches for the past 7 years as my main keyboard.
At that time it was basically Cherry then everyone else. Gaetron and Kailh were just coming on and were not as good as the cherrys. Seems that opinion has changed, also there are TON more options out there now.
I got the Reds because I game but I've never typed well with them.
Silvers are intriguing, but Im not sure if they type better or worse than the reds.
I've run Blues, Browns they were ok but definitely not enough of a bump and I use a Keycool with clears for my work keyboard, which are nice but get fatiguing after a while. I cant swap the springs because the keycool has a plate.
Not sure if I want to stick with linear or go tactile, I would say at this point I'm 60 40 gaming vs typing.
What's good out there now or do I just stick with Cherrys?
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There are a whole bunch of different kinds now made from different materials with different characteristics. I suggest trying to figure out the kind that you like (linear, tactile, clicky, etc.) and do some experimenting :) The cherry switches are still perfectly fine but plenty of different options out there now!
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I fear my question may have too broad sort of like asking what switch is the best thats not what Im getting at.
The real question is have the other brands, which were the cheap/budget/good for the price brands when I got my KB better and are they worth considering over Cherrys?
Thats the real question
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I think you should first find out your preference, you should try out the main types to see what's your preference (or even different stuff like topre)
There are a lot of options but I think cherry is just old reliable. Modding them (breaking them in, lubing them, replacing the pretty bad springs) creates a very good switch that often is similar or even outperforms a lot of the higher end switches today. Cherry also has a really good sound if you care about that.
Of course there are tons of options, In terms of linears, Gateron has some nice switches, even some like the Gateron pro and Gateron X switches don't need any modding to feel good. JWKs are smooth when lubed but I feel are overpriced for what they are. I have used some kalih creams and once broken in and lubed I thought they were really nice.
Cherries are still cheap when compared to other switches but they have gone up in price. But you can find good deals for some cherry switches. You can find blacks and browns for .28c at some vendors, like geonworks. Gat X and Pros are well priced (I even still see pros for cheaper than cherries a lot of the time) JWKs and the Creams are not really a great value so only get them if you truly want them.
Silvers may not help you when it comes to typing. Cherry silvers have a shorter actuation and travel distance than the reds, so you may mistype more with them. I am personally using the silvers right now funnily enough, and I can type just fine on them, so it really does depend on you.
A potential reason why you may not like the reds for typing is the weighting of the spring. The weighting for the spring is 60g for reds (of course there is a lot of spring variance so keep in mind of that) so if you feel that the switch is too heavy for typing, buy a lighter weight consistent aftermarket spring and see if that helps, buy a heavier if you feel that the switch is too light for typing. The length may also be a factor, so if you feel that the weighting isn't the issue, you can buy longer springs to see if that's the issue. You may want to try all those options and see what's right for you, preferably with people who have those springs in the weighting you want, so you don't have to waste money. Tx springs as an example aren't too expensive (there like 8sud, probably cheaper) so it's not too big of an investment if you want to try them out, but does add up depending on how many you buy.
Hope this helps you in some way :)
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I fear my question may have too broad sort of like asking what switch is the best thats not what Im getting at.
The real question is have the other brands, which were the cheap/budget/good for the price brands when I got my KB better and are they worth considering over Cherrys?
Thats the real question
Some of the former clone manufacturers now exceed Cherry, others produce significant new alternatives.
Gateron has always been known for smoothness [at a price-point], and this hasn't changed. Now, it offers many tactiles and linears that are smoother than Cherry offerings. Many have decent pre-lube as well, and the high-end are basically usable as-is.
Kailh made alternative non-Cherry designs. Its clicky switches are world-class, and affordable. [BOX White, Jade, Navy, etc...]. It also offers silent linears and tactiles.
Some new manufacturers started offering linears and sometimes tactiles that beat almost everyone in terms of quality-for-price. These are JWK/Durock [now overshadowed by JWICK] and KTT. There are also some budget brands like AKKO, TTC, Aula/Leobog, and obscure new entrants like MMD. And SP Star seems to produce slightly nicer versions of Cherry and some Durock switches.
So the entire range exists, from budget [but good] to midrange [being eaten by budget options], and some luxury options. As others said, you need to decide what you want, because the options out there are vastly greater than what they were 7 years ago. On the other hand, most of these switches are just better/more specialized/niche versions of the original Cherry designs + Ergo Clears, so if you know what you are looking for, you can find it.
[There are some genuinely new things, like the BOX clickies, Zeal Clickiez, TTC Bluish White, Gateron Kangaroo, U4/U4T/Holy Boba. And tactiles/linears with exotic springs and materials.]
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Yeah the ergo clears have always intrigued me and I've wanted to try them. I think a tactile switch is what I like mostly, Ive always liked my clears and typed will on them, but they are just too heavy for me. I knew this going in though I thought I could get used it it, just when I got the board I was very new in all of this and only after figured out that it was impossible to swap out the springs without unsoldering the entire board, which I was not prepared to do.
so ideally what I am probably looking for is something maybe the weight of a Brown or a little heavier, with a more pronounced bump.
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Yeah the ergo clears have always intrigued me and I've wanted to try them. I think a tactile switch is what I like mostly, Ive always liked my clears and typed will on them, but they are just too heavy for me. I knew this going in though I thought I could get used it it, just when I got the board I was very new in all of this and only after figured out that it was impossible to swap out the springs without unsoldering the entire board, which I was not prepared to do.
so ideally what I am probably looking for is something maybe the weight of a Brown or a little heavier, with a more pronounced bump.
You should probably look for something that emulates an ergo clear. Stuff like a Penguin Tactile, Durock Medium Tactiles, Outemu Sky and Zealio V1 are all examples of this. You could always just by cherry clears and spring swap them, which would probably be cheaper than the new "ergo clears" that cherry are selling. However (I don't know if the new cherry clears fix this problem but it probably hasn't) there has been problems with the clear stems where they can potentially damage keycaps, so just keep in mind with that.
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so ideally what I am probably looking for is something maybe the weight of a Brown or a little heavier, with a more pronounced bump.
"Heavier Brown" is a category that intersects with "light Ergo Clear," but I'll try my best.
[I'm typing on light Ergo Clears right now, BTW.]
There have been some 'heavier Browns' in the past few years. One of the latest is probably the TTC Golden Brown V3. I tried the V2, it felt like a 65 G Brown. The V3 are cheap and fairly consistent, but they need lube for better sound characteristics.
A more interesting 'heavier Brown' is Gateron CAP Brown V2 (or V3?). This is not a Cherry-design. It has a different internal layout. But stem-wise, it is a larger Brown. It uses a powerful 55 G spring, IIRC. So, overall, it's a more crisp and snappy Brown with a more clearly-defined bump. It is also smoother and somewhat pre-lubed.
I put some hand-lubed Gateron CAP Golden Brown V2 into a keyboard for a relative. Even on a cheap keyboard, these sound great with PBT keycaps and a polycarb plate. The Milky CAP Brown V2 had better sound than the Golden CAP Brown V2, but the latter may have caught up by now. These go on sale and should be around 25-35 cents a switch. They are all too snappy for my liking, but it is exactly what some people are looking for.
At around the same intensity, but with a heavier linear spring are the [Gateron] Zealio V1 redux. This was the first factory "Ergo Clear," and one of the first-ever custom switches. You can use it like a smoother, somewhat less-tactile Ergo Clear. Or put in a 60 G 14mm TX spring, lube modestly with 3204, and it is a slightly-larger Brown. Zealio V1 can be relatively expensive, but are on-sale right now.
[Zealio V1 Redux is a switch for customizers: you will need to lube it for better sound, and it is conventional enough in design to use some replacement springs. OTOH Gateron CAP Brown can be used as-is, and is not so amenable to modding. But they do take well to 3204.]
Another switch kind-of straddling the 'heavy Brown' and 'Ergo Clear' is the Huano/Ajazz Banana. Imagine reducing the spring-weight of an MX Brown, but increasing the bump size. That's basically an Ajazz Banana. Like a more extreme CAP Brown with worse stock sound. Comes in these fun 45-piece fruit tins. Smoother than MX Brown, but sounds more plasticy without lube.
Then you have actual Ergo Clears. You are in-luck. They are official now. You can buy actual Cherry "Ergo Clears." The stock spring at 67 G is a bit heavy. So you may wish to replace with 65 G 14mm TX, 63.5 G linear Spirit, 63.5 - 68 G Progressive Spirit, and many other choices. Cherry Ergo Clears are still gritty, but these factory Ergo Clears seem to have a little better factory-lube than usual, and are probably better than Clears from 7 years ago.
Durock Medium Tactile [and its many variants] is kind of like a cruder, slightly-larger, and cheaper Zealio V1. They are fine, do well with all types of lube, and benefit strongly from films. I like to use them with high-profile keycaps, and they are fine on many plate types.
The Penguin is a DMT variant. You can actually create a hybrid Clear/Penguin by using MX Clear / Ergo Clear stems in a Penguin housing. Lube the housing, but only the tactile bump on the Clear stem. You can get away with 60 G springs this way. Instead of the stock 63.5.
BTW Maybe the best factory "Ergo Clear" are the Naevy 1.5 switches. They actually seem to have Clear-like properties, but are built better. Factory lube is decent, they do well with 3204. The 2.0 is out, but I haven't tried them. They may be more tactile.
So there you have it. Those are just some of the main options.
TTC Golden Brown V3 > Cheap heavy Brown, plasticy.
Gateron CAP Brown V2 > Ready-made snappy Brown. Cheap. Can be lubed.
Zealio V1 Redux > Fancy large Brown / Light Ergo Clear. For customization.
Huano / Ajazz Banana > Big-bump Brown with a light spring. Plasticy and loud.
Cherry Ergo Clear > The real thing. Gritty and needs lube. Dramatic effect from spring types.
Durock Medium Tactile > Cheaper Zealio V1, many variants. Use films.
Naevy 1.5 > Smooth light Ergo Clear with decent factory-lube. Use 3204.
There's also a few switches just a bit heavier than an Ergo Clear. The T1 and its million variants are one, as are the SP Star Magic Girl, which are said to be well-built but needing lube. You can also build light Holy Pandas, which are like crunchier Ergo Clears.
There are also some absurdly-cheap Panda-like switches that are worth trying. Like you can get 90 MMD Princess shipped to you for like $17 USD. And these switches would have cost about .65 cents each, based on quality, just a few years ago.
There was a huge sale on AliExpress where many of the switches I just mentioned were on sale. It just ended, but some of them are still on sale. I can point you to the MMD Princess if you want.
There's a new Brown switch coming out called "Chazhu." They lied and said things like 'Vintage Browns,' but it looks to be a snappier Brown. Could be what you are looking for. If any samples arrive with me, I will let you know.
BTW, if you actually liked typing on Clears, but they were too heavy, you could take MX Clears and put in some mid-weight progressive springs. Like 72 G or so. It would be lighter than factory Clears, but still simulate their force curve to an extent. Works well with 3204. You can also use a powerful mid-weight spring that actuates at 60 G and bottoms out around 65, although that might be a bit poppy.
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I should also mention:
Gateron Baby Kangaroo [it's snappy but not excessive, definitely larger than a Brown.]
Durock Light Tactile [larger bump than a Brown, comes in luxury "Pewter" and "Cotton-Candy" variants.]
MODE Tomorrow [a mild medium tactile that is very sturdy, decent factory-lube]
TTC Bluish White [a snappy medium-tactile that has maybe a more boxy-shaped tactile leg, more authoritative.]
SP Star Polaris Purple [the 65-67 G SP Star medium-tactiles have been called "better Ergo Clears" by some of the veteran folks around here.]
AKKO POM Browns [these are really smooth Browns with a somewhat more-defined tactile bump]
AKKO Cream Blue V3 Pro [medium-tactiles like a small Holy Panda, but they are decently-lubed from factory + cheap]
KTT Mallo [these are Browns but the bump is well-defined, and you can use a higher spring weight like 68 G.]
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BTW,
I just went to my testing board.
Since you are saying that MX Blues are not enough bump for you, I would try the larger-bump tactiles.
Probably a good starting point is the T1. The JWICK T1 V2 are so cheap, you could buy 10 for like nothing, or like 90 for $20 during a sale. Even in stock form, they are pretty good. And will give you an idea of where to go from there.
And still experiment with the Ergo Clears. What to do is buy a "sample pack" of TX springs. So you'll get like 2 60 G, 2 63.5 G, 2 65 G, and so on. Open up some MX Clears and put the springs in. [Works better with 3204 + spring-lube.]
You'll get an idea of which weights work for you. There are cheap and powerful Chinese springs that often work well with Ergo Clears as well. The point is, you can figure out a good weight fairly easily.
So just starting with those 2 options will tell you a lot.
[You can also pick up some 60 G MMD Princess and some Huano Banana samples for pretty cheap.]
There are other snappy tactiles, but these are cheap and effective.
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I just cannot help myself.
I noticed that the Blueberry Chiffon V1 is on clearance sale:
https://invokeys.com/products/invokeys-blueberry-chiffon-switches-clearance?variant=42628264722590
These are 'big Browns.' Basically, an MX Brown with a larger bump, placed closer to the top. Long-pole, so they are clacky.
The V1 had a problem with ringing tactile leafs, so switches 'ring' intermittently. This is to your benefit, because now you can try out the switch for like 75% off.
The lubed will be more educational, as they will sound (mostly) like they are supposed to.
If you choose V2 lubed B-stock, it's like $3.30 for 10. So this is the cheapest ever chance to try these, if you like.
EDIT:
If you are in the United States, get a Cannonkeys tactile switch sampler:
https://cannonkeys.com/products/switch-sample-packs?variant=40804134748271
It has many of the switch types I've already mentioned, including T1 + [Lilac], Naevy 2.0, Baby Kangaroo, Cerulean [DMT], Bluish White, and of course the MX Clear.
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Thank you!, That's a lot to unpack, Im going to take some time and read through. I did grab a set of the Blueberry Chiffons to see just because they were so cheap
Any recommendations on a quality barebones that I can switch test in? Would be awesome if it was inexpensive and well but I know those two terms generally dont collide in the same context often.
Dont care/need/want any backlighting or RGB. Dont care/need/want wireless if that helps.
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You are in luck!
There are a lot of "quality barebones" these days.
The smallest [and cheapest] is the Tester68. They are all over AliExpress: unfortunately, the sale ended. So they are about $30 USD + shipping instead of $25 USD.
If you are in the United States, there is an outfit called KeebMonkey that is basically a dropshipper for China. You can find the Tester68 there, too:
https://www.keebmonkey.com/products/kbm68pro-kbm84pro-kbm100pro
It is also sometimes known as the KBM68 and TES68. One barebones variant is on sale for $25:
https://www.keebmonkey.com/products/keebmonkey-x-ambit-kb68-budget-keyboard-kit?_pos=2&_sid=be199e752&_ss=r
Or even $20:
https://www.keebmonkey.com/products/kbm68-transparent-2-4g-wireless-keyboard-kit?_pos=4&_sid=be199e752&_ss=r
Unfortunately, Tester68 and derivatives are wireless-only. They need AA or AAA batteries or something. But this hasn't proven detrimental in-service to me. The wireless is reliable, it can even control a TV Android box with its dongle, and the battery lasts for a long time and can be shut down.
If you want to go up a little in price and size, there is the MK870 TKL on AliExpress. It is normally about $60 USD. However, it goes down to $40 during sales.
I understand you can get this gasket TKL starting at $54.99:
https://mechkeys.com/collections/87-keys/products/aula-f87-mechanical-keyboard?variant=44207466545375
I have both the Tester68 and MK870. Mine have been rock-solid, so far. They should be perfect for testing. Personally, I believe the Tester68 is fine for testing tactiles. Mine is built with Durock Medium Tactiles [Mode Signals filmed with TX films, and lubed with 3203.]
So, yeah. Either of those two would be adequate. If you need keycaps, a full set of beige + cream Shenpo PBT keycaps are like $42 CAD on AliExpress, or $38 during sales. Or maybe there is something at Cannonkeys that you could order with the tactiles sample pack.
If you want serious all-in-one quality, the Keychron V7 is highly-regarded for an entry-level keyboard. You can buy it barebones at $64, ready for hotswap switches, or get the 80-something dollar version with Gateron Brown or Yellow-like switches and usable keycaps.
https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-v7-qmk-custom-mechanical-keyboard
It's more than you need for testing, but the plus is you can get it with keycaps. There are similar deals on Chinese websites [all-inclusive keyboard], but Keychron is a known brand.
You did well picking up those Blueberry Chiffons. Mine were only 25% discounted when I bought them. You'll get an idea of the force curve of the stem and spring. They are 'long-pole.' You'll find out what that means soon. Good contrast with MX Clear and T1.
Blueberry Chiffons were marketed as "better Browns" [this is a common theme]. But I think they are more like medium-tactiles than light-tactiles. Even if they are on the light end of that.
Ergo Clears are deceptive, because those plain little switches open up a new world. The changes you get from different lubes + patterns, plus spring weights, are noticeable.
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PS
Nice little clearance sale at 21KB:
https://21kb.com/collections/sale
The Irish / Chinese [blue-pink] / Wubi sets look like good deals.
Also, the Artifact Bloom sets are adequate, and have some selection:
https://drop.com/buy/artifact-bloom-series-keycap-set-futures
Normally $45, but I have seen them go down to $39 during sales.
MT3 Skiidata is only $39! Will cover a TKL or Tester68 easily. Big, expensive keycaps. This is the lowest price it can go.*
https://drop.com/buy/drop-mt3-skiidata-keycap-set?searchId=f23e221227926a9b5ad96bd27fddefb2&defaultSelectionIds=968812
At $66 USD, this Keychron K-series is a steal.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09MQ465GJ/ref=ewc_pr_img_1?smid=A2HZ6DMACCHCOH&th=1
It's dual-mode wireless and wired. Has south-facing LEDs, which is ideal for testing. Beyond the Tester68 and MK870 in quality. Doesn't come with keycaps, though. This keyboard is more than is needed.
*The Dasher and Dancer sets are also at $39 from the same vendor.
They may represent better value, as they include the numpad as well.
However, MT3 is an unusual profile. The surfaces are spherical, rather than cylindrical. It is unlike the more common Cherry and OEM profiles, in that respect. The keycaps are thick, and sound good, but because of that are somewhat misleading if testing for switches that will mainly be used with Cherry-profile.
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BTW a white KBM68 with MT3 Dancer would look kinda like this:
(https://i.redd.it/first-premium-ish-budget-build-qk65-r2-v0-u4g5491ob54b1.jpg?s=d6f1cccadea12b4373e050ca71934f4876e89d1f)
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PS
Nice little clearance sale at 21KB:
https://21kb.com/collections/sale
The Irish / Chinese [blue-pink] / Wubi sets look like good deals.
For 21kb, you should only buy when these sales come across, these keycaps are definitely not worth $60, and you can get similar quality caps (Shenpo, JC Studio for much cheaper). 35 is a price I would be willing to pay so only go for the clearance sets at that price (only get the $39 one if that's your favourite out of the other $35 caps)
In terms of quality bare-bones, keychron are pretty good for testing, the K8 barebones is 89 (on their website I have seen the bare-bones kit for less, but for 10usd more you get swtiches and caps if you want a better deal. They come with prelubed stabs so you don't have to bother with that as much. Of course you can get more value oriented stuff if you want to as well.
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I was just thinking about that.
I've never tried 21kb before. But my understanding is that the legending is a bit more consistent than Shenpo.
That's not worth much price premium over basic Shenpo, which is $29-31 on AliExpress.
So $35 USD actually seems like a decent price for a legended 21kb set. But never $50 or more. [I'm tempted to try it out.]
For Keychron, I agree they should be good for testing. I mentioned the K2. The K2 is basically a K1 with extra features, and it's available at $66:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09MQ465GJ/ref=ewc_pr_img_1?smid=A2HZ6DMACCHCOH&th=1
In my view, that beats out the Keychron K8 for $89, although that is because a sale is on.
There is also the WK68, which is like a fully-kitted out Tester68. People rate it highly, and seem to think it is a good deal. But that is only if you don't know about the other options I mentioned.
I guess it is okay if you need both keycaps and switches with it.
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I've had a Leopold FC750R with Cherry Red switches for the past 7 years as my main keyboard.
At that time it was basically Cherry then everyone else. Gaetron and Kailh were just coming on and were not as good as the cherrys. Seems that opinion has changed, also there are TON more options out there now.
I got the Reds because I game but I've never typed well with them.
Silvers are intriguing, but Im not sure if they type better or worse than the reds.
I've run Blues, Browns they were ok but definitely not enough of a bump and I use a Keycool with clears for my work keyboard, which are nice but get fatiguing after a while. I cant swap the springs because the keycool has a plate.
Not sure if I want to stick with linear or go tactile, I would say at this point I'm 60 40 gaming vs typing.
What's good out there now or do I just stick with Cherrys?
For gaming, I like lubed Vin Blacks or Tealios. For work and typing I like 55g lubed topre. On my linear, I usually run 62-67g but I run a heavier spring on my spacebar and put a silent linear on it.
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Those are good solutions, Archdill. I would use New Nixies in place on Vint Blacks, since the new Black are easier to obtain.
One thing that the OP should know is, back before most of these custom switches, people coming from MX Clears would often just adopt the Zealio V1 (and sometimes V2) with 78 G springs. Sometimes, the Zealios came with those springs. Otherwise, you would have to buy Spirit linear (or progressive, like these):
https://rndkbd.com/products/sprit-mx-progressive-springs?variant=40610831073432
People liked the 78 G springs, because a Zealio with 78 G is heavier than a Brown, but still lighter than using an MX Clear.
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I was just thinking about that.
I've never tried 21kb before. But my understanding is that the legending is a bit more consistent than Shenpo.
That's not worth much price premium over basic Shenpo, which is $29-31 on AliExpress.
So $35 USD actually seems like a decent price for a legended 21kb set. But never $50 or more. [I'm tempted to try it out.]
The thing is that 21kb used to be a lot cheaper (I think they were under 30 I don't remember the exact price) but they upped their price so much they had to walk back on some of the price to 60 (I think they tried to sell at 80 at one point which is insane and not worth that at all) and I agree that the $35 ones are fine, just don't buy 21kb caps at full price.
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You should consider ergo clears: they are in Cherry’s standard line now: they have the firm bump off clears but with a lighter spring so they are not as fatiguing
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You should consider ergo clears: they are in Cherry’s standard line now: they have the firm bump off clears but with a lighter spring so they are not as fatiguing
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ergo clears are nice, but I feel that a lighter spring makes them feel better, the ones that cherry sell are mx blacks springs instead of the usual brown or blue springs that are used (like 60g springs) that were seen when we say ergo clears. If you do get them, I would recommend to spring swap them with like tx springs or anything like that because cherry springs aren't very good, so find the cheapest options of clears (whether standard clears or the new "ergo clears") replace the springs and lube them with a less thick lube for the best typing experience with the clears.
The reason why some people recommend ergo clear like switches is because cherry clear stems have the ability to warp and damage keycaps due to the larger stem size to a mx brown as an example. So if you do get them, just know the risk there.
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I think the OP should strongly consider Cannonkeys' sample pack, since it contains several switches in the Ergo Clear range. [Perhaps he could combine it with another product, such as springs, lube, or a switch opener, in order to absorb shipping costs.]
Yes, the stock springs in Cherry's official Ergo Clears are heavier than they should be. Maybe they should only be used for large modifiers [Shift] and spacebars at most.
The classic custom weight was 62 G Korean springs [so about 15mm Spirit], although personally I think 63.5 G is richer and more subtle. 65 G 14mm TX is also great, a little on the heavier side though.
To get actual "lighter MX Clears," with a progressive-ish spring [different from Ergo Clears], people put 72-78 G Progressive springs and such into MX Clears and Zealio V1.* Or just 78 G linear.
BTW this guy's review of POM Browns is incredibly detailed and accurate:
https://switchbox.studio/akko-pom-browns/
[For the OP, POM Browns are truly a light-tactile, but a slightly larger bump than MX Browns.]
Not only is it worth reading in its entirety, but the comparisons to other switches are valid, and provide details about those too.
Plus there's a great review of the Ajazz Kiwi tactile:
https://switchbox.studio/ajazz-diced-fruit-kiwi/
and he even talks about BOX switches:
https://switchbox.studio/box-vs-box-vs-box/
*Zealio V1 is 25% off right now:
(https://zealpc.net/cdn/shop/products/62gZealioV1Redux_600x.jpg?v=1633767690)
https://zealpc.net/collections/zealio_v1_redux?variant=39352365449280
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Very good, on-topic post:
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/cherry-ergo-clears-your-user-feedback/18737/15
Alphadecay
I got some Cherry Clears in from Cannonkeys this past week and I wanted to share some initial non-typing impressions comparing the bump profile in hand and the smoothness.
My favorite switch that I use in my main keyboard has been Durock Medium Tactiles for quite a while now, which are modeled on Cherry Clears. The DMTs I’m using have a very light coat of 3204 on rails and stems with TX XL (18mm) 60g springs and Deskey films. I’m lubing my Clears with a slightly heavier coat of 3204 on rails only as I aim for as much of a “frictionless” feel, and the prior DMTs ended up feeling a little sluggish with rail+stem lube.
I would rank the smoothness of these Clears compared to the DMTs as follows: Unlubed Clear<Lubed Clear<= Factory lubed DMT < Lubed DMT. The DMTs get really close to the frictionless feel that I desire, whereas the Clears are definitely smooth post lube but you do still hear some scratch. Its not the egregious scratch that one would expect based on older pretool molds, but there’s some definite texture to the push feel. I expect that this is mostly unnoticeable when typing at speed though, and some light break-in should close the gap to the DMTs.
I find the Clears to have more pre-travel and a smaller but sharper feeling tactile bump. Looking at the stems corroborates this for me as the DMTs have a slightly more rounded bump in the tactile leg. However, the Clears are consistently lighter in terms of peak tactility - when testing by pressing two switches together with the same spring and lube combination, the Clears have consistently actuated first. The impressions of the rounder bump lines up with Pylons’ testing of the two and his force graphs 1. I would have to disagree with @Deadeye’s impressions earlier here on the Clears having the more “assertive” bump, but this is most likely because the Dragonfruits have really loose tops/housings while the Durock Medium Tactiles are quite tight housings with low amounts of stem wobble.
I have to finish lubing these and use Geon’s stem trimmer to reduce the size of the stems, but so far I like what I have. If Durock Medium Tactiles didn’t exist then I would be using Clears in most of my builds for sure. However, based on my preferences in switch smoothness and the slightly rounder bump profile of the DMTs, I prefer those even at the standard price of $0.55 USD per switch from standard vendors. Right now I can get them from the official Durock Aliexpress storefront for $0.40 USD per switch which is a really competitive price compared to the $0.38 USD of standard Cherry Clears.
These are going to go into my Keychron Q5 I use for work so I’ll be able to use both long term and update with more typing impressions when they’re ready.
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I think the OP should strongly consider Cannonkeys' sample pack, since it contains several switches in the Ergo Clear range. [Perhaps he could combine it with another product, such as springs, lube, or a switch opener, in order to absorb shipping costs.]
Switch sample packs are probably the second best way to try out switches (The best is trying them out in person or at meetups) and would also recommended as well, if no-one in your area has them.
I have to finish lubing these and use Geon’s stem trimmer to reduce the size of the stems
Honestly it is a nice read but had no idea that those stem trimmers existed, obviously cherry should fixed the issue that people have known about it for years, but at least the stem issue can be fixed which is good.
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I've had a Leopold FC750R with Cherry Red switches for the past 7 years as my main keyboard.
At that time it was basically Cherry then everyone else. Gaetron and Kailh were just coming on and were not as good as the cherrys. Seems that opinion has changed, also there are TON more options out there now.
I got the Reds because I game but I've never typed well with them.
Silvers are intriguing, but Im not sure if they type better or worse than the reds.
I've run Blues, Browns they were ok but definitely not enough of a bump and I use a Keycool with clears for my work keyboard, which are nice but get fatiguing after a while. I cant swap the springs because the keycool has a plate.
Not sure if I want to stick with linear or go tactile, I would say at this point I'm 60 40 gaming vs typing.
What's good out there now or do I just stick with Cherrys?
I am rocking a Filco MT2 TKL w/ mx-reds that is basically 8~yrs old now.... I have read and look and tried a few new things..... I am happy with my Filco I personally find it quite nice to type / game on... I have basically zero desire to do anything different for now...
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I've had a Leopold FC750R with Cherry Red switches for the past 7 years as my main keyboard.
At that time it was basically Cherry then everyone else. Gaetron and Kailh were just coming on and were not as good as the cherrys. Seems that opinion has changed, also there are TON more options out there now.
I got the Reds because I game but I've never typed well with them.
Silvers are intriguing, but Im not sure if they type better or worse than the reds.
I've run Blues, Browns they were ok but definitely not enough of a bump and I use a Keycool with clears for my work keyboard, which are nice but get fatiguing after a while. I cant swap the springs because the keycool has a plate.
Not sure if I want to stick with linear or go tactile, I would say at this point I'm 60 40 gaming vs typing.
What's good out there now or do I just stick with Cherrys?
I would definitely pick up a switch tester/sample pack. There are a ton of different possibilities and some great innovations that have happened in the keyboard industry over the past few years. I'm a big fan of Gateron switches, this is a pretty good sample pack and switch tester offered by them.
https://gateron.com/products/gateron-switch-tester-with-sample-set-1
Hippokeys also has a great selection of switch samplers.
https://hippokeys.com/collections/frontpage
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I wonder if the OP ever started testing custom switches. Did I scare him off? :thumb: