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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 August 2012, 20:49:27

Title: GH60 Keyboard Project
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 August 2012, 20:49:27
Order from the GB thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41464.0

GH60 custom (DIY) keyboard recap:

1. Komar007 designed the PCB and is having them printed. He has had a prototype run done, which is being distributed for testing. Once that is tested, and the final revisions made, the GB will proceed.
2. The_Beast will be having [some number of] plate designs made. Probably about 8 designs, to include ANSI winkey, ANSI winkeyless, ISO winkey, and ISO winkeyless. If we have case-integrated designs and stand-alone designs for those, that makes 8 plate designs for a base run. And I'm sure he will take requests for custom plates, such as lysol's bottom row.
3. alaricljs is *maybe* doing another stabilizer buy. He is gauging interest. On a related note, if you choose a winkey layout, and use plate mounted Costar stabilizers, you can get those from WASDkeybaords.com all day.
4. samwisekoi has offered to help with designing an acrylic case. WhiteFireDragon, The_Beast, damorgue and dirge are also working on case designs. As are others. If you want to use an existing case, our goal is that this PCB will fit in any current Poker/Pure case. Including the aluminum ones made by imsto, treble318, oneproduct, and Duck.

You must install your own switches and keycaps.


(http://i.imgur.com/H6fvq.png)

(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34959.0;attach=6789;image)

(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34959.0;attach=6787;image)

gh60_reva.zip (https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34959.0;attach=6786)

Phase:
Interest Check
Design
Prototype and testing
Group Buy/Ordering
Invoicing/Collecting Payments
Final Prototyping
Production <-- We are here! YAY!
Shipping

GH60 Custom Keyboard
Ever wanted your Poker/Pure to have a programmable controller? Did you love the different layout options of the Phantom, but wanted it in a smaller form factor? This is a 60% form-factor Geekhack custom keyboard that will be somewhat similar to the Phantom, but it will not include the function row, cursor arrows, or insert key group.

- Includes support for programmable layers.

- PCB populated from factory with all electronics, including diodes and ATmega32u4 programmable controller chip. Only switches will need to be sourced and mounted. Support for PCB-mount switches.

- Support for Poker/Pure cases, including aluminum cases from imsto, oneproduct, or treble318.

Supported Layouts:

- Normal/Standard Ansi layout
- ISO layout (vertical enter key, smaller left shift, additional key to the left of "z" key)
- 1.75x right shift, allowing extra 1x Fn/Mod/etc key to the right or left of the right shift key
- Model M "winkeyless" style layout with 1.5x - 1x - 1.5x modifier keys on left and right sides, with 7x spacebar
- lysol's proposed layout with two 1.5x modifiers on the left and 1.5x - 1x - 1x - 1.5x on the right, with 7x spacebar


The ATmega32u4 controller chip
This is the same chip as on the Teensy2.0. It is a 16MHz 8-bit AVR from Atmel.


Plates
Plates will make your keyboard will feel more solid overall and help disperse some of the typing stress. Theyre optional, but most people do prefer it. Each layout will require a different plate. HHKB and winkeyless layouts can use any ANSI or ISO plate with 1.5x modifiers. I designed these so the top switch housing is removable without desoldering, which helps with swapping switches, springs, stems, lubing, or stickering later on. They can be directly dropped in to existing cases. More details on this in the next post.
 
compatibility:


Pricing
PCB (SMD presoldered) - $40
PCB (DIY, includes SMT components) - $25
Plate - $16
Switches - $0.60 - $0.85
Plate-mounted cherry stabilizers - $9
PCB mounted cherry stabilizers - ??
Assembly - $25
Shipping - ??

The prices listed above is a ballpark. PCBs could be a tad lower, depending on quantity at the end, or possibly be a few dollars higher to account for import/VAT taxes or any other unforeseen fees. Same goes with plates and switches, it really depends on how many of each are ordered.
 

Interested:

jdcarpe
komar007
The_Beast
alixinhzai
damorgue
elton5354
sth
lysol
tgujay
longweight
modulor
jil_jil32
tjweir
metalliqaz
TheProfosist
Glissant
Tenkey
nntnam
Loligagger
Bim Gao
dirge
nebo
ferociousfingerings
MagicMeatball
mm87
JonDBurnett
phetto
fruktstund
jessecoleman
KennyR
OddOne
Nask
salmo
pasph
esoomenona
kravlin
neeb
Hzza
osxoep
wiredPANDA
i3oilermaker
boost
duq
Razer1987
alvinliang
Appeac
Grimey
mars-bar-man
samwisekoi
danielucf
MarkPharaoh
poopmat
tjcaustin
huttala
fl0w3n
jcrouse
mistakemistake
iMav
... and more!




Images of some possible key layouts:

(http://i.imgur.com/XIiWw.png)
ANSI ("KBC Poker"-style)

(http://i.imgur.com/waIRf.png)
ANSI w/1.50 mods

(http://i.imgur.com/3nlu1.png)
ANSI winkeyless

(http://i.imgur.com/hxbKs.png)
ISO

(http://i.imgur.com/FQuRl.png)
ISO w/1.50 mods

(http://i.imgur.com/j1g8j.png)
ISO winkeyless

(http://i.imgur.com/4BUkO.png)
"HHKB"-style

(http://i.imgur.com/3OXkD.png)
ISO "HHKB"-style

(http://i.imgur.com/yUlcd.png)
"KBT Pure"-style

(http://i.imgur.com/0UtL3.png)
IvanIvanovich's custom

(http://i.imgur.com/M4u17.png)
TheProfosist's custom

(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34959.0;attach=10194;image)
samwisekoi's custom
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 24 August 2012, 21:48:18
Very interested.

The water jet guy got back to me, he can only hold a +/- of .005", the laser guy still hasn't gotten back to me. Here's hoping for tighter tolerances
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 August 2012, 21:50:57
Yeah, I think laser is the way to go. IIRC, litster had the Phantom plates laser cut from 1/16" 6061, then found a place that would sand them a bit thinner before the anodizing process.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 August 2012, 21:52:24
Where are you going to fit the teensy?  It will NOT fit between the PCB and the plate... and then there's the cable routing issue.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 August 2012, 21:53:43
Underneath? Is that where the Teensy resides on the Dox?

I don't think it will be too hard to route the USB cable. We could get treble to make a hole for the Teeny reset switch instead of the DIP switches, and design some kind of channel for the USB cable.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 August 2012, 21:54:43
If I recall correctly it was top-side under the space bar, no plate.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 24 August 2012, 21:58:08
Yeah, I think laser is the way to go. IIRC, litster had the Phantom plates laser cut from 1/16" 6061, then found a place that would sand them a bit thinner before the anodizing process.

I might be able to use this:
(http://img1.UploadScreenshot.com/images/thumb/8/23412442254.jpg) (http://www.UploadScreenshot.com/image/1343688/2573108)

It's a surface sander, it's like a thickness planer for wood but it can take a few thousandths off at a time using sand paper (pretty accurate)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 August 2012, 21:58:41
Well, there are some great technical minds here on Geekhack. Yourself included, alaricljs. I'm sure someone could help figure it out. I'm just the idea guy; I'm no engineer. :P

We could, of course, forgo the Teensy and go with an onboard controller. But I like the idea of using a Teensy, if possible, since we know quite a bit about the programming.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 August 2012, 22:00:34
Well, the obvious answer is just do it SMD w/ integrated controller and have the fab take care of it  :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 August 2012, 22:01:28
Well, the obvious answer is just do it SMD w/ integrated controller and have the fab take care of it  :)

QFT. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 August 2012, 22:03:10
I might be able to use this:
{image here}
It's a surface sander, it's like a thickness planer for wood but it can take a few thousandths off at a time using sand paper (pretty accurate)
I like it!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 24 August 2012, 22:04:50
It would be nice if we could use the water jet since it leaves such nice edges. Lasers get the job done, but the edges can be rough. I've also heard that lasering can be expensive when doing such tight tolerances due to the gases they have to use to maintain those tolerances :(


I should get the laser quote back sometime Monday
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 August 2012, 22:06:06
Well idea guy, tell me why not 1.25x mod row, and why not a 1.75 right shift plus an extra key there?

edit: on such a small keyboard sometimes it's nice to have a few extra buttons.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 August 2012, 22:10:48
My thought about the bottom row was to use 1.5 mods, since winkeyless boards are like [zoolander] Hansel, they're so hot right now. [/zoolander]

The rest of the keys would be standard ANSI, so that it would be easy to change out the keycaps. I have mixed feelings about the 1.75 right shift and the Fn key to the right of it. My Pure is setup that way, and I can use it, but I am just so used to having the full 2.75 right shift that sometimes I hit the far right key when I mean to shift.

Between the Ctrl and Alt was the logical place to put the Fn key, and why not have them on both sides, for convenience?

Windows keys and Menu key are extraneous, at least for me. I NEVER use the Menu key, and if you use Windows and need that keypress, Ctrl-Esc is the same.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 24 August 2012, 22:18:17
Well to be honest if I had a programmable controller I'd never use the win or menu key either... but they would be there for me to program as something else  :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alixinhzai on Sat, 25 August 2012, 00:01:05
Very interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Djuzuh on Sat, 25 August 2012, 03:11:17
I don't get the 1.5 mod craz.

I like my 1.25 mods.

Just because korean make it the 1.5 way doesn't need we need to copy them.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Cindori on Sat, 25 August 2012, 03:25:16
What software is people using to generate those layout schematics?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: longweight on Sat, 25 August 2012, 03:34:30
It would be much nicer to have a control keyless board!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 25 August 2012, 05:59:45
Having 1.5 mods on the bottom row is also an easy way to visually distinguish that the board is a custom design, while keeping the standard layout of the other keys to make changing keycap sets trivial. If you build a Phantom with 1.25 mods, you can't easily tell the difference between that and a Filco, for instance. Yes, it has a programmable controller, and you can setup the caps lock to be off center if you like, but when you see a picture of a keyboard with 1x mods sandwiched between 1.5x mods, inside a Filco housing, you know it's a Phantom. :D

Why does one need extraneous keys on their keyboard, anyway?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 25 August 2012, 06:15:21
What software is people using to generate those layout schematics?

If you mean the plate design, it was originally done with CAD software. That plate image is a screenshot, I think, of the PHANSI plate that I grabbed from another thread, then modified in Paint.

For the key layout, I used Hazeluff's Dox template image, again grabbed from another thread, and modified it to my needs using Paint. I don't know how Hazel made the original.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hazeluff on Sat, 25 August 2012, 06:42:20
What software is people using to generate those layout schematics?

If you mean the plate design, it was originally done with CAD software. That plate image is a screenshot, I think, of the PHANSI plate that I grabbed from another thread, then modified in Paint.

For the key layout, I used Hazeluff's Dox template image, again grabbed from another thread, and modified it to my needs using Paint. I don't know how Hazel made the original.

My layout thing came from WASD. Its derived from the template you use to submit custom legends.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: longweight on Sat, 25 August 2012, 06:43:44
Can we drop the Windows keys, list key, right ALT and the control keys?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sat, 25 August 2012, 08:32:30
I like my keyboards as symmetrical as possible but that's just me :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 25 August 2012, 10:04:09
KiCAD is the most common choice here to do the  PCB layout, and bpiphany was kind enough to put together a library of keyboard footprints that include a drawing layer that has the proper measurements for plate cutouts.  KiCAD is capable of rendering this layer as a DXF file.

As far as wanting to be able to tell by sight that it's a custom KB... that's kind of silly.  I'd prefer something useful over something that tells the world I'm making sacrifices in usability to make sure you know it's custom.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 25 August 2012, 10:12:08
ISO, anyone, ISO? There are already several 60% ANSI boards out there

Dare to be unique!

Go against the stream!

Make yourself known!

Be pioneers!

Vote ISO!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 25 August 2012, 10:20:48
It's not hard to produce a board w/ ISO and ANSI on the same PCB.  Then you just have to get enough people interested in the ISO plate to produce it at a reasonable cost.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: longweight on Sat, 25 August 2012, 10:32:47
ISO, anyone, ISO? There are already several 60% ANSI boards out there

Dare to be unique!

Go against the stream!

Make yourself known!

Be pioneers!

Vote ISO!

Why on earth would anyone want ISO?!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Djuzuh on Sat, 25 August 2012, 10:35:12
ISO, anyone, ISO? There are already several 60% ANSI boards out there

Dare to be unique!

Go against the stream!

Make yourself known!

Be pioneers!

Vote ISO!

Why on earth would anyone want ISO?!

Superior layouts bro ! :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hazeluff on Sat, 25 August 2012, 10:40:14
ISO, anyone, ISO? There are already several 60% ANSI boards out there

Dare to be unique!

Go against the stream!

Make yourself known!

Be pioneers!

Vote ISO!

If anything, I think it would be smart to break any key that's 2x width or larger into smaller keys (some parts will look like ISO).
So Return becomes 1x + 1.25x and similarly for other keys ; p
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 25 August 2012, 11:31:56
I wish it to just be a pcb drop in replacement for Poker. It would be best if it fits in the existing Poker cases. Only thing I care about would be able to program the 2nd layer myself since it is the only thing I don't like about the Poker. It is ok with me if it's winkeyless also of course, I have plenty of 1.5 Cherry modifier.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: longweight on Sat, 25 August 2012, 11:36:23
ISO, anyone, ISO? There are already several 60% ANSI boards out there

Dare to be unique!

Go against the stream!

Make yourself known!

Be pioneers!

Vote ISO!

Why on earth would anyone want ISO?!

Superior layouts bro ! :p




(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wAxDMfEGhoY/TQrlbN4gYXI/AAAAAAAAAXg/kmwztAAni44/s400/Not%252BSure%252Bif%252Bserious.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 25 August 2012, 12:20:38
I wish it to just be a pcb drop in replacement for Poker. It would be best if it fits in the existing Poker cases. Only thing I care about would be able to program the 2nd layer myself since it is the only thing I don't like about the Poker. It is ok with me if it's winkeyless also of course, I have plenty of 1.5 Cherry modifier.


This is what I was aiming for. Programmable Poker replacement with 1.5 mods, that would fit into a Poker case.

I'm okay with having ISO options on the PCB, and another plate option for it. We could also have the options, just like the Phantom does, for 1.25 or 1.5 mods. At that point, this is basically a Phantom 60%, instead of a TKL (80%). I'm cool if people want that, I just had something a little different in mind. My thinking was that if we had one standard layout, like  the Korean customs do, instead of the 4 options, it would be cheaper per unit.

Hazeluff, if you want the large keys split up like that, just build a Dox. :)

If everyone wants the ANSI/ISO option, as well as the 1.5/1.25 option, maybe we should incorporate this design (Phantom 60% with onboard programmable SMD controller and Poker/Pure case mounts) into the next round of the Phantom, as an additional PCB design. That is, if bpiphany, litster, et al. are amenable to that.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: elton5354 on Sat, 25 August 2012, 12:31:57
Cool I'm in. I have a spare Poker case so I'm all set for this! I'm all for 1.5 mod since if you put in 1.25 it'll be no different than a poker. I want something a little different.  ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hazeluff on Sat, 25 August 2012, 12:33:05
I wish it to just be a pcb drop in replacement for Poker. It would be best if it fits in the existing Poker cases. Only thing I care about would be able to program the 2nd layer myself since it is the only thing I don't like about the Poker. It is ok with me if it's winkeyless also of course, I have plenty of 1.5 Cherry modifier.


This is what I was aiming for. Programmable Poker replacement with 1.5 mods, that would fit into a Poker case.

I'm okay with having ISO options on the PCB, and another plate option for it. We could also have the options, just like the Phantom does, for 1.25 or 1.5 mods. At that point, this is basically a Phantom 60%, instead of a TKL (80%). I'm cool if people want that, I just had something a little different in mind. My thinking was that if we had one standard layout, like  the Korean customs do, instead of the 4 options, it would be cheaper per unit.

Hazeluff, if you want the large keys split up like that, just build a Dox. :)

If everyone wants the ANSI/ISO option, as well as the 1.5/1.25 option, maybe we should incorporate this design (Phantom 60% with onboard programmable SMD controller and Poker/Pure case mounts) into the next round of the Phantom, as an additional PCB design. That is, if bpiphany, litster, et al. are amenable to that.

Well this project is like almost just a Dox. If you go for PCB mount like the poker is already, then you can accommodate a ton of layouts with just the PCB. That means 1.25/1.5 mods and ANSI/ISO/Other layouts.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 25 August 2012, 12:33:50
Unlike the Koreans we generally cannot agree on a single layout enough to get a decent volume of orders :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 25 August 2012, 12:38:00
There is no need not to make the pcb compatible with several layouts. The ones that want a different layout than the main chosen one could go pcb-mount so that only one plate is made.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hazeluff on Sat, 25 August 2012, 12:38:44
You just need one person heading the project in one way and disregard the small other groups of people.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hazeluff on Sat, 25 August 2012, 12:39:41
There is no need not to make the pcb compatible with several layouts. The ones that want a different layout than the main chosen one could go pcb-mount so that only one plate is made.

This.

PCB mount will/can support tons of layouts, but if you guys are thinking of grouping for plates, you're going to want to settle on a single layout.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: sth on Sat, 25 August 2012, 12:57:13
im in if it has a plate!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 25 August 2012, 13:00:29
So does this sound like a sensible plan? Produce a Phantom 60% board with layout options for ISO/ANSI and 1.5/1.25 mods on the PCB. Only one plate, which would reflect the design I posted in the OP for ANSI with 1.5 mods.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 25 August 2012, 13:05:14
Sounds perfect, if there is pcb mount switch so no plate is needed at all. Even though I would likely fall into the winkeyless ansi mainstream, I don't even want a plate.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 25 August 2012, 13:20:28
My suggestion was stupid in retrospect. Buying 20 of each makes them cost less per plate than 20 of one. The ones that intend to use a different layout would need to buy a plate they aren't going to use to make it 80 of that one to make it worth it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tsangan on Sat, 25 August 2012, 16:57:29
1800 shift is perfect for this layout, the pure did it right there. Perfect location for the fn key which allows the 1x mods to be windows
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 26 August 2012, 13:16:22
I'm interested!
In fact this is exactly what I've planned on doing for a long time, but couldn't quite get down to it.
I'll contribute whatever is necessary: electrical design, programming, etc if someone makes this happen.
I can also contribute my controller software (teensy-compatible) with nkro support. It basically needs good layer support and PC-side layout designer, not much work to be done.

And I support the 1.25 modifier idea. I was thinking about putting 2 Cherry MX locks between alt and ctrl on the right side which would enable choice between 4 different layers or settings, etc. which you could change by pressing/depressing the keys.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tgujay on Sun, 26 August 2012, 15:34:44
Gimme!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: longweight on Sun, 26 August 2012, 15:54:14
Sounding good!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Wed, 29 August 2012, 14:10:35
Color me interested!  This seems like a natural successor to the original Dox design.

1800 shift is perfect for this layout, the pure did it right there. Perfect location for the fn key which allows the 1x mods to be windows
I like this idea, as I like the Pure layout.  However, if it is fully programmable, there's always the option of remapping.  I do like having that extra key, tho.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jil_jil32 on Wed, 29 August 2012, 14:31:21
I hope Fn key can be placed as like it is on HHKB pro 2, beside 1.75x right shift. So I can have the GH60 winkeyless version!
Aluminum casing sounds great!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:02:18
I think I would rather have the 1.75 shift + fn style as well instead of between the ctrl and alt. Only downside then though is having some big ugly gaps if using an existing Poker case with nothing between the modifiers. I will assume this will not be popular, but perhaps have the bottom row 1.5,1.5,7,1.5,1,1,1.5? It would eliminate gaps and leave 2 keys for win/menu on the right. Might be a decent compromise?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:02:39
So, I think most people want something like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/7Zb65.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/nEYo6.png)

I think we can use the Phantom PCB, just redesigned to be cut down to 60% size. Phantom Mini. The bottom row could have options for winkey or winkeyless. Also, ISO layout could be included, just like on the original Phantom. You just buy the universal Phantom Mini PCB, and whichever plate matches your chosen layout (PHMANSI, PHMANSIWIN, PHMISO, PHMISOWIN).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:09:50
I would personally like it to be a 65-70% with the function row or an extra column, but that may just be me.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:13:35
There's a thread for that...It's called the KS Mini. :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jil_jil32 on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:17:39
So, I think most people want something like this:

[img width=640 height=206]http://i.imgur.com/7Zb65.png[img]

[img width=640 height=228]http://i.imgur.com/nEYo6.png[img]

I think we can use the Phantom PCB, just redesigned to be cut down to 60% size. Phantom Mini. The bottom row could have options for winkey or winkeyless. Also, ISO layout could be included, just like on the original Phantom. You just buy the universal Phantom Mini PCB, and whichever plate matches your chosen layout (PHMANSI, PHMANSIWIN, PHMISO, PHMISOWIN).

That's exactly what I want!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:18:27
There's a thread for that...It's called the KS Mini. :P

Doesn't exist in ISO. There is no small ISO board at all unfortunately, so these things are our only hope.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:24:55
Well, much of the reason I designed it to be a 60% board instead of a 75% board is so that it will fit in a Poker/Pure case. And in the aluminum ones that imsto, oneproduct, and treble318 have made for them. For a 75% board with the function row and another column, we would have to design a custom case, as well. There are quite a few Poker/Pure cases floating around out there which can be used for this project.

1000th post! Hooray! And in my own thread, to boot!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: i3oilermaker on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:26:40
Congrats!!!  Get this man a mystery key!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:28:42
Ok, well as long as it is small and ISO, it will still be the first ever to be made.

I am in for one if that wasn't obvious by now.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:35:33
I know this will become a reality. I'm fairly certain bpiphany is on board to help with the design. I just don't know how long it will take to go from this interest phase to design to production.

At first, I wanted to modify the Dox design for this project, and exclude ISO altogether. But it shouldn't be too hard to modify the Phantom design down to this size, and that means we can have the ISO option. Like you said, it will be the very first (that I know of, anyway) 60% board with ISO layout.

Hopefully, everyone will get behind this project and make it a success, just like the original Phantom!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjweir on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:48:51
Programmable?  I'm in.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:52:36
Do I understand correctly that the Phantom pcb supports bot ISO and ANSI and 101 and 104 modifier layout?
If so, and if the designers of Phantom don't mind, we can take the layout and re-route the board to 60%. I think we can also embed the atmega32 because there's much less space to fit the teensy.
Teensy isn't really much more than an atmega and a couple of passives, and we could add, say, a 1Mbit flash to store all our super-duper keyboard layouts;)
One disadvantage of this is, however, not everybody will cope with smd soldering, so there would have to be someone to presolder the components...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 29 August 2012, 15:55:27
You've got it exactly. And we should have the controller and any SMD components presoldered by the PCB fab. I don't think bpiphany will mind at all if you want to help with the redesign. He will probably send you the KiCAD file of the Phantom PCB. I have a copy saved somewhere, if it's needed.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 29 August 2012, 16:01:25
Hm, so we're going with actual assembly too. I think we'll need at least 200 of these kbs made to have a decent price. But that won't be a problem:D!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Hzza on Wed, 29 August 2012, 16:07:22
60%, programmable, ISO? In pls.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Wed, 29 August 2012, 16:34:55
I don't think soldering that much extra space is necessary it has  few KB which is enough for any purpose I can think of.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 29 August 2012, 16:42:13
That's right. But I once had this weird idea to put some more memory, add a LiPo battery and have a keyboard you can make notes on while it's not connected, and then transfer them over to your PC;)
Nevermind, just an idea, we don't need it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 29 August 2012, 16:52:27
There used to be something like that available in the 90's I remember. It had a tiny little maybe 14 charachter lcd screen at the top so you could try to catch your mistakes if you made any. Then you could connect it with serial and transfer the text into document application.
That would be interesting feature, but I couldn't see myself using it personally.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 29 August 2012, 17:26:26
On a 60% board, kinda silly


I could see it on a fullsized board tho
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 29 August 2012, 18:30:45
Why on fullsize if used for taking notes, like in a class or something... you want it small so it is less annoying to lug around all day.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 29 August 2012, 18:48:48
Why on fullsize if used for taking notes, like in a class or something... you want it small so it is less annoying to lug around all day.

I see your point but how are you going to power it? batteries?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Wed, 29 August 2012, 19:08:13
I could see having a little LCD on a fullsize so that the numpad could be used as an independent calculator (no alt-tab necessary). For note taking, IMO, there's still no substitute for a pen and some paper.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 29 August 2012, 19:37:20
I am not saying this should be done here and starting to get a little off topic, but the thing I was talking about was battery powered to keep the document in memory and to power the screen. It was just a keyboard with a little screen along the top of it basically a low end portable word processor. It was like a 60% too. Not exactly the one I was thinking of but sort of like one of these things:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/NTS-Computer-Systems-NTS-DreamWriter-325-Portable-Word-Processor-NTS-325-/00/s/NDgwWDY0MA==/$%28KGrHqMOKkUE5VPwybutBOfNgFinew~~60_3.JPG)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: metalliqaz on Wed, 29 August 2012, 21:19:44
Too many mods and extras would kill the project.  It's called 'feature creep', and every design team deals with it.

I like this idea.  US needs a 'board of our own'.

I'm a computer engineer.  Willing to provide some help if it's really needed.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: sth on Wed, 29 August 2012, 21:21:21
Sounds like an alphasmart 2000. i know a surplus place in the bay area that i could probably get 50 of those from... not that anybody would want them :P

I like the idea of a screen, I wanted to put one in my pokertouch case.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 29 August 2012, 21:52:14
You folks need to get a Focus FK-5001. One of my best friends in college had one, and I thought that was just the best. Welcome to 1992!

NO SCREEN!

;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 29 August 2012, 23:55:43
I see you like the layout i commisioned a template for from hazeluff. Why not use one that i have made already I have a few different versions worked out for dox, phantom, and WASD. Ill post them as ideas here tomorrow but i think all of them are quite good.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glissant on Thu, 30 August 2012, 04:53:37
I'm watching this eagerly. Very interested to say the least.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Icarium on Thu, 30 August 2012, 05:04:05
It needs the 7bit spacebar of japanese doom. At least as an option.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 30 August 2012, 09:19:18
I don't think bpiphany will mind at all if you want to help with the redesign. He will probably send you the KiCAD file of the Phantom PCB. I have a copy saved somewhere, if it's needed.

If you could post the KiCAD files, I'd be grateful. I've just received imsto's keycaps for this keyboard, so I'd like to build a prototype as soon as possible;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 30 August 2012, 09:30:04
This would be my ideal layout:
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/lysol8086/4cbbb5f6.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 30 August 2012, 11:07:19
This would be my ideal layout:
Show Image
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/lysol8086/4cbbb5f6.png)


I see the merits of your design, but we would have to redesign much more of the PCB, instead of simply making a few modifications to an existing design. And several people have expresses desire to have a standard, modern bottom row with 1.25 mods and 6.25 space. So I think we need to keep that option available.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hazeluff on Thu, 30 August 2012, 11:29:40
I wouldn't call this board a "mini" board tho. I associate that with the 75% board. But heh.

Making the schematic and PCB is fairly easy. People just need to decide on the layouts that should be available (and not you have limited space for them).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 30 August 2012, 11:30:37
Just thought I would throw it out there, as to me you get best of everything. Important, you get to have 1.5 mods, with a Windows and menu key if you want. Definitely make it easier to use all original Cherry keycaps as 1800 sets are a cinch to find.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Thu, 30 August 2012, 13:18:15
I personally don't want a poker layout because I already have a poker. But I also don't want some crazy layout that's hard to find keys for. I think it should be Tsangan kit friendly since Tsangan kit are almost always run with GBs for sets of keys.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 30 August 2012, 13:25:21
That's why I went with a modified Phantom layout, instead of something more custom like the Dox layout. See updated layout in the OP.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 30 August 2012, 13:28:03
Which was what I was saying! I really just don't want a key between Ctrl and Alt on the left though, and I could not put it there, but have a space like a crackheads missing front tooth.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Thu, 30 August 2012, 13:30:46
I just had a thought, I could get the plates from the lazer guy and a case made for 3-4 plates (so we could avoid CNC mill hourly rates) from the water jet guy.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Thu, 30 August 2012, 13:41:08
I tried, and a metal case made from sheets looks a bit weird. It works when it is acrylic, especially when in several colours, but the dividing lines just seem odd to me.

These pcbs and plates will be poker compatible, right?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 30 August 2012, 14:20:58
Yes, that is the intention. Which is why we won't have to bother reinventing the wheel with the cases. imsto, treble318, and oneproduct already make aluminum cases, and Vortex makes plastic cases that come with a Poker/Pure PCB and some switches included. :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tipo33 on Thu, 30 August 2012, 17:10:31
I may be interested depending on what options we setle on.  I vote for 1.5 mods and an ISO option.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 30 August 2012, 18:48:03
This would be my ideal layout:
Show Image
(http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/lysol8086/4cbbb5f6.png)


I see the merits of your design, but we would have to redesign much more of the PCB, instead of simply making a few modifications to an existing design. And several people have expresses desire to have a standard, modern bottom row with 1.25 mods and 6.25 space. So I think we need to keep that option available.

I've started working on this, and it seems from my basic sketches, that doing lysol idea's support along with standard 1.25mod + 6.25 spacebar and model m 1.5-1-1.5mod on both sides is possible at the expense of not having support for one of the two pcb mount pins in the crowdiest area.
I think I may actually redesign the board, especially because we don't have the controller incorporated into the Phantom, and we want it here.
Not sure where I'll fit it, but it must be possible;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tenkey on Thu, 30 August 2012, 19:13:45
Make this happen, so i can make a wood replica of the hhkb :cool:
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 30 August 2012, 20:06:36
komar007, you might take a look at the Dox PCB layout files here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=19227.0

I think the Dox has the Teensy located under the spacebar
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tenkey on Fri, 31 August 2012, 01:14:26
Any chance this is going to support a 7x spacebar?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 03:34:05
komar007, you might take a look at the Dox PCB layout files here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=19227.0

I think the Dox has the Teensy located under the spacebar

Thanks, I'll look into it.

Any chance this is going to support a 7x spacebar?

Yes, there is a chance;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 31 August 2012, 03:43:04
here are the few layouts that i have come up with in the past



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/7bitCustom4LayerDefaultWASDTEMP2.png)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/7bitCustom4Layer1WASDTEMP2.png)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/DOX4LayerDefaultTEMP1cropped.png)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/DOX4Layer1TEMP1cropped.png)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/WASDKeyboards-CustomKeyboard-Final-1.png)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/WASDALTTKLDefaultLayer1TEMP3-1.png)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/WASDALTTKLFnLayer1TEMP3-1.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 31 August 2012, 03:53:07
Show Image
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/WASDKeyboards-CustomKeyboard-Final-1.png)


Lol, great minds think alike. Does it look familiar or what:
(http://i.imgur.com/3goQY.gif)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 31 August 2012, 03:58:55
Show Image
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/WASDKeyboards-CustomKeyboard-Final-1.png)


Lol, great minds think alike. Does it look familiar or what:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/3goQY.gif)

only reason i dont have anything special on that layout is i made it for WASD as a possible layout and since program-ability and layering wasnt wanted. thats about as small of a board that you can make with all functions available and sill have a semi normal layout.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hazeluff on Fri, 31 August 2012, 04:46:02
komar007, you might take a look at the Dox PCB layout files here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=19227.0

I think the Dox has the Teensy located under the spacebar

For a board that's compact, It's probably best to SMD a MCU onto the PCB. Tho obviously some people are terrified of soldering already in the first place.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 31 August 2012, 04:52:23
komar007, you might take a look at the Dox PCB layout files here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=19227.0

I think the Dox has the Teensy located under the spacebar

For a board that's compact, It's probably best to SMD a MCU onto the PCB. Tho obviously some people are terrified of soldering already in the first place.
yes its under the spacebar and yes smd would be better but wasnt an option on the revised dox
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 04:58:08
komar007, you might take a look at the Dox PCB layout files here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=19227.0

I think the Dox has the Teensy located under the spacebar

For a board that's compact, It's probably best to SMD a MCU onto the PCB. Tho obviously some people are terrified of soldering already in the first place.

The MCU will surely be smd and soldered under the space bar, because there's no space anywhere else;)
The only thing is, we may not be able to support 7bit multi-part spacebar because of that.
Anyone needs any other space bar than 6.25 and 7 units?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 31 August 2012, 05:00:21
komar007, you might take a look at the Dox PCB layout files here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=19227.0

I think the Dox has the Teensy located under the spacebar

For a board that's compact, It's probably best to SMD a MCU onto the PCB. Tho obviously some people are terrified of soldering already in the first place.

The MCU will surely be smd and soldered under the space bar, because there's no space anywhere else;)
The only thing is, we may not be able to support 7bit multi-part spacebar because of that.
Anyone needs any other space bar than 6.25 and 7 units?
all i have to say is screw the 7bit spacebar ive used 4 separate spacebars for a week now and they MUST go
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 08:14:23
Ok, so before I get to do the board, here's my proposed image, which shows all possible layouts. It seems this can be achieved, but we'll see how the pads for switches will fit.
Please correct any mistakes now, before I lay out the board;)


[attach=1]

Legend:
The basic ISO with 1.25 mods and 6.25 spacebar is drawn gray.
I marked some alternative options with green, they are 1/16 unit (unit = 19mm) smaller on all sides, not to interfere with gray lines.
In some places it was necessary to use blue, where I overlaid them on top of both gray and green. In such case the caps are 1/16 unit smaller on top and bottom, and as large as the green overlay horizontally.

The supported alternatives to gray layout are (can be mixed together):
* ISO layout (vertical enter and complementary "#" (marked green), and shorter left shift with additional key to the left from "z" (also green))
* extra fn/mod/whatever either to the left or right from right shift, making it 1.75u instead of 2.75u (marked green and blue)
* model-m-like 1.5-1-1.5 modifier on the left and right side of the spacebar (7u) (marked green)
* lysol's layout with two 1.5 mods on the left and 1.5-1-1-1.5 combo on the right (spacebar 7u) (marked blue)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 31 August 2012, 08:21:16
Looks great. Some of those switches in the bottom row will need to be upside down though, because i ma fairly certain that they will interfere with each other.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Icarium on Fri, 31 August 2012, 08:27:51
Add more switches in the middle! Who needs those huge ass space keys anyway?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 08:32:17
Sure, I'll put some more switches instead of the controller. Who needs a controller anyway?:D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 31 August 2012, 08:42:33
That looks awesome! I'm pretty sure no one but 7bit himself wants the 7bit layout. Let's run with what you have.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Icarium on Fri, 31 August 2012, 09:10:24
Well, I do! :)
But I'll never look at anything else anymore once the ergodox is finished. ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hazeluff on Fri, 31 August 2012, 09:26:45
Ok, so before I get to do the board, here's my proposed image, which shows all possible layouts. It seems this can be achieved, but we'll see how the pads for switches will fit.
Please correct any mistakes now, before I lay out the board;)


(Attachment Link)



Legend:
The basic ISO with 1.25 mods and 6.25 spacebar is drawn gray.
I marked some alternative options with green, they are 1/16 unit (unit = 19mm) smaller on all sides, not to interfere with gray lines.
In some places it was necessary to use blue, where I overlaid them on top of both gray and green. In such case the caps are 1/16 unit smaller on top and bottom, and as large as the green overlay horizontally.

The supported alternatives to gray layout are (can be mixed together):
* ISO layout (vertical enter and complementary "#" (marked green), and shorter left shift with additional key to the left from "z" (also green))
* extra fn/mod/whatever either to the left or right from right shift, making it 1.75u instead of 2.75u (marked green and blue)
* model-m-like 1.5-1-1.5 modifier on the left and right side of the spacebar (7u) (marked green)
* lysol's layout with two 1.5 mods on the left and 1.5-1-1-1.5 combo on the right (spacebar 7u) (marked blue)


The right hand shift area is a bit cramped if you do both 1-1.75 and 1.75-1

(http://i.imgur.com/niu1k.png)


Might be true for bottom right hand side modifiers as well.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 09:27:22
Well, I do! :)
But I'll never look at anything else anymore once the ergodox is finished. ;)

When I bought my first model m I also thought I'd never look at anything else.
10 keyboards later we're doing the GH KB;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 09:35:43
The right hand shift area is a bit cramped if you do both 1-1.75 and 1.75-1

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/niu1k.png)

EDIT: quoted badly;)

Then we can decide for just one of the options, but I think I have even worse situations on the left of spacebar and it did look doable on paper;)
After I have the first prototype of pcb produced we'll see if that doesn't make the board too flimsy and then maybe remove some options if necessary.

Also, in places where it won't be possible to provide holes for pcb-mount pins (because they're covered by the mounting hole of a different switch) we can add two pads in places where the diode goes, and make it possible to attach the switch more firmly with a piece of wire.


EDIT2: maybe let's not make the lack of 7bit spacebar support official until R4 ends...:P For now let's assume it may be doable.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 31 August 2012, 09:41:34
Looks great. Some of those switches in the bottom row will need to be upside down though, because i ma fairly certain that they will interfere with each other.

I mentioned the solution there. Just have some of the switches upside down, like I believe some of the switches in the Phantom are. This resolves the issue of them being to close to each other and interfering.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 09:46:20
Looks great. Some of those switches in the bottom row will need to be upside down though, because i ma fairly certain that they will interfere with each other.

I mentioned the solution there. Just have some of the switches upside down, like I believe some of the switches in the Phantom are. This resolves the issue of them being to close to each other and interfering.

Unfortunately putting them upside down will only fix pad collisions, but the main hole is in the center, so after a 180 degree rotation the mounting pins don't change at all:/
But you've just given me another idea. We can mount some of them at 90 degrees and this may remove the collision of pins;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 31 August 2012, 10:07:58
Yes, sorry, I meant that. The ISO enter of the Phantom is 90 degrees rotated I believe.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 12:24:27
So I've placed all the switches an everything seems doable, I see some problems with stabilizer holes of ISO enter, they may overlap here or there, but it shouldn't be a problem, I'll think about it later.

Now I have an important question: what about the spacebars?
Spacebars are crazy as for stem placement, so the question is: which are we going to support?
How far apart are the stems on 7u spacebars and where is the center stem?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 31 August 2012, 12:33:56
Spacebars are crazy as for stem placement, so the question is: which are we going to support?
How far apart are the stems on 7u spacebars and where is the center stem?

List of space bars:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Space_bar#6.25_units_.28118mm_wide.2C_3_mounts.2C_50mm_apart.29
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 12:50:36
Ok, so I'd say:
* 6.25u: there is one possible position for this spacebar, so we make one center switch for it and one off-center + two stabilizers 100mm apart; we cover filco, poker, ducky, etc., G80-3000 and R4 SPACE
* 7u: there are two positions, so we provide 2 additional switch footprints, bot in the middles of respective spacebars and two pairs of stabilizers, each 6 units apart; this covers cherry and R4 SPACEOLD
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 31 August 2012, 13:02:23
Very cool. I am glad to see it may be possible to do it the way I wanted without interfering with what others want. I hope some others get on board with that so it is not dropped. Please make my dreams come true GH! :-*
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nntnam on Fri, 31 August 2012, 13:30:13
Very interested here!!!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 14:08:31
Can we drop support for this spacebar?
Quote
6.25 units (118mm wide, 3 mounts, no center mount)
3 mounts, two mounts 50mm apart from center, one mount 12.5mm to the right.


It is super-close to another footprint, and drilling holes that overlap partially may not be possible.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 31 August 2012, 14:19:33
Yes, we don't need off-center stem 6.25. This is no Cherry board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tenkey on Fri, 31 August 2012, 14:22:44
Assuming we're using the teensy controller here, is it possible to solder the components directly onto the pcb? Just saw this in the dox kb thread and thought it would make it look much cleaner. Although this would require some pros to do it i guess thus adding up to the cost. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 14:34:47
Assuming we're using the teensy controller here, is it possible to solder the components directly onto the pcb? Just saw this in the dox kb thread and thought it would make it look much cleaner. Although this would require some pros to do it i guess thus adding up to the cost. :rolleyes:

That's exacty what we're doing here;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 31 August 2012, 14:37:18
Since we won't have room for a Teensy here, we will source the SMD controller chip (ATmega32u4) and have it soldered to the PCB by the fab.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 31 August 2012, 14:38:35
komar007, you are working like a madman to make this project a reality. I want to thank you for that, and to let you know that I really, REALLY appreciate your help!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 14:48:51
Thanks, jdcarpe.
I want to thank you too, because I've wanted to realize just that for a year and couldn't get down to it. Now I have the motivation:D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hazeluff on Fri, 31 August 2012, 15:30:03
Looks great. Some of those switches in the bottom row will need to be upside down though, because i ma fairly certain that they will interfere with each other.

I mentioned the solution there. Just have some of the switches upside down, like I believe some of the switches in the Phantom are. This resolves the issue of them being to close to each other and interfering.

If you do that, pads start going in mount holes, not exactly what you want to have.

You are right tho, it is possible to do that for the cluster I showed. Just my OCD will kill you and everyone else on this forum xD.

I think you start running into trouble with the modifiers if you allow for too many layouts. But 1.5-1-1.5 + 1.25-1.25-1.25 is ok.

Komar: Have you (or anyone) started laying this out in software?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 15:34:17
Ok, so here is the demo of the first version of switch and stabilizer placement. It's messy, I know;). But the lines help if you look carefully.
I marked with arrows two places which aren't really good. I still have to think about them...
[attach=1]


EDIT:
hazeluff: yes, what I present here is already in kicad.
Schematic is done for the controller, I only have to do the connections in the matrix and then route the board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 31 August 2012, 15:39:45
Looking good so far. Those two areas will be tricky. Can't have the solder pads in mount holes. :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 15:56:57
Possible solution to both arrows:
[attach=1]
In both cases the leftmost switch will have just one mounting pin (the other one is partially colliding with the solder pad of the middle switch), so the user will have to cut one support pin off...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 31 August 2012, 16:09:00
Works for me. I think most people will buy plates and use plate-mount switches, anyway. Don't forget the holes for the Caps Lock LED. :)

Edit: Also, we need to locate the mounting holes to mount the PCB to the case and include those on there.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 31 August 2012, 16:48:01
I was thinking about adding 4 dipswitches, like in the poker, but this will be hard...
We have 26 - 1(reset) i/o pins. My current matrix is 14x5, so we have 6 pins left.
4 of them in PORTF are by default used by jtag, so that leaves us with 2 (unless we SPI-reprogram each unit, because the fuse bits can't be set via usb).
One goes for capslock, the second is unused.
But all in all, I think if the keyboard is programmable, we don't need dipswitches.


EDIT: what do you prefer: support for both center-stemmed and stepped caps-lock or LED under caps lock (only center-stemmed)? Both can't be done together.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 31 August 2012, 18:53:42
How much would it cost to add holes for leds on each switch? No traces, just holes so that one could, if they wanted to, wire them up manually.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 31 August 2012, 18:55:15
How much would it cost to add holes for leds on each switch? No traces, just holes so that one could, if they wanted to, wire them up manually.
why not traces also? I like leds even though theyll just make the caps glow.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 31 August 2012, 19:00:14
Because traces to each led would make the pcb much more complex? My suggestion was to just add the two extra holes so that the LED pins could go trough and be wired manually, if one would want that.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 31 August 2012, 19:45:02
Is it possible to just have led in switch for both caps positions? Then you can use windowed cap of either style caps lock? I think that would be ideal really if possible.
I am ambivalent about backlight support. If it can be added without a bunch of compromise, whatever. But I am not likely to make a use of it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Loligagger on Fri, 31 August 2012, 20:20:36
I'm very interested if the PCB could support the same layout as the poker (1.25 mods, 2.75 right shift, etc). Does the teensy allow for fn locks like what the poker has (or other such toggles like on the pure)?

Could mount plates be cut out of acrylic as well? It'd be neat to be able to see the PCB through the plate itself.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Sat, 01 September 2012, 02:44:51
I was also looking to.do.something like this so happy that people with time and ability are doing it :)

Calling this phantom, does that mean the design philosophy is the same? A way to use cherry caps without the need for moogles?

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 01 September 2012, 03:30:16
How much would it cost to add holes for leds on each switch? No traces, just holes so that one could, if they wanted to, wire them up manually.

why not traces also? I like leds even though theyll just make the caps glow.

Cost probably wouldn't be high, but having 450+ drills I'm starting to wonder how this will influence rigidity of the board.
Some time ago I was designing a poker-sized kb with full backlighting, where you could set each key separately and this was crazy.
I'm afraid that with this number of holes and such complexity, especially on the bottom row, wiring the LEDs will be horrible.

Also take into account, that to do proper backlighting we also need 60+ resistors for the LEDs, 2 additional ICs (ULN or whatever darlington arrays) and some transistors to do the multiplexing. Of course we don't have enough pins, so this means either go for a crazy 8x8 matrix, which I have already done and I know it's very messy or 2 extra serial buffers (that would be 5 ICs, rather not doable).

If we don't do proper backlighting, but simply all on/all off, then this gets better, but it still needs a resistor for each LED and some more traces.

Just holes - there's no problem to add them, but one has to solder all of them from the back. The only problem is number of holes. I don't know...

Is it possible to just have led in switch for both caps positions?

For caps backlighting, the switches have to be in regular position (LED at the bottom, to shine through the window). If I put them like this, one of the solder pads overlaps with the mounting hole of the second switch.
[attach=1]
Even if I rotate the switches, like I did in modifier section, and allow the LED to be in a weird position, something will always overlap...


Does the teensy allow for fn locks like what the poker has (or other such toggles like on the pure)?


The teensy allows for whatever you program it;)
There are already a few controller firmwares  for the teensy that can do a lot, and I'm writing one which will be reprogrammable without recompilation and reflashing. We'll see.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 01 September 2012, 03:41:06
Is it possible to just have led in switch for both caps positions?

For caps backlighting, the switches have to be in regular position (LED at the bottom, to shine through the window). If I put them like this, one of the solder pads overlaps with the mounting hole of the second switch.
(Attachment Link)
Even if I rotate the switches, like I did in modifier section, and allow the LED to be in a weird position, something will always overlap...
http://deskthority.net/resources/image/1900
It interferes with the hole for the siwtch as you can see there, but it worked in the Phantom.


@dirge: With the Phantom, you can solder the switches of the keys affected either in the center or off center. I suppose if the design is copied this will be the same.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 01 September 2012, 03:58:47
@dirge: With the Phantom, you can solder the switches of the keys affected either in the center or off center. I suppose if the design is copied this will be the same.

The design won't be copied from Phantom, because it's too different. I'm only using Phantom as a reference here and there.
As for cherry caps, I think there should be no problem. The poker supports cherry (I have imsto's thick pbts on it (which are the same profile, aren't they?) and they fit), and our keyboard supports poker as one of the options... Am I missing something?


EDIT: I added both capslock positions with LEDs, I'm assuming this overlapping solder pad won't be a problem...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Sat, 01 September 2012, 04:15:33
Sorry I should be clearer mate :)  I wasn't saying the design would be the same but the main aim of the project.  The phantom main goal was to use a set of cherry caps on the board without the need to get keys from sig plastics.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 01 September 2012, 04:29:08
Sorry I should be clearer mate :)  I wasn't saying the design would be the same but the main aim of the project.  The phantom main goal was to use a set of cherry caps on the board without the need to get keys from sig plastics.

I'm not really an expert in cherry caps, but I think it should be doable. Maybe someone can look at this and give an opinion.
I'll do the mounting holes for the poker case and publish something.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 01 September 2012, 07:55:42
The basic layout is done, I've drawn poker-compatible mounting holes and capslock LEDs for both capslock options.
Now I need a USB connector and I can start routing.
Which connector do you want? Maybe micro B... They're rated for 2x more cycles than mini...
Anyway, we have to decide for a particular part number...

Also, are we really having this machine-assembled? Do you know how much they charge for small orders? Because I've never done that.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 01 September 2012, 08:17:52
Am I the only one that likes larger USB types? They never break at all.

Type B anyone, type B, B for president, anyone?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 01 September 2012, 08:24:43
I prefer type B too, but it won't fit to the slot in the poker case...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sat, 01 September 2012, 08:33:03
How hard would it be to add a USB port onto this (to plug in a number pad)?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 01 September 2012, 08:34:13
How hard would it be to add a USB port onto this (to plug in a number pad)?

Very easy because all you need is to wire another port to the incoming port to make a primitive USB hub.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sat, 01 September 2012, 08:39:25
Then we should do it! :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 01 September 2012, 09:04:50
You will need a second hole in the case though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 01 September 2012, 09:06:21
How hard would it be to add a USB port onto this (to plug in a number pad)?

Very easy because all you need is to wire another port to the incoming port to make a primitive USB hub.

One thing is there must be some place for this additional connector and it can't interfere with the poker case (so it has to be recessed).
Second thing is the user has to drill a hole in the case.
And thirdly, atmega32u4 doesn't support USB Host, so you can't make a USB hub. We'd need a dedicated IC for that. BTW, you can't make a hub by just splitting wires;). Though possible from protocol's perspective, it won't work at least because plug/unplug detection can't work (pull ups/pull downs will be messed up).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 01 September 2012, 09:18:39
Though possible from protocol's perspective, it won't work at least because plug/unplug detection can't work (pull ups/pull downs will be messed up).
Ok, didn't know that. I knew that the protocol supported it because I have done so in the past, but I guess I was lucky then and that these are more complicated circumstances.

I suppose one could remove the plasic casing from a proper USB hub and mod it in there instead.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 01 September 2012, 09:24:00
You actually did that?
I didn't know it was possible in practice at all...
Anyway, I think we shouldn't do too much, I mean one more cable on the desk isn't so bad.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 01 September 2012, 09:49:24
I think that we should stick to a USB Mini B connector. Since that's what is used for the Poker, Pure, HHKB, Rosewill, QFR, Leopold, etc.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 01 September 2012, 10:38:31
Ok, what do you think about this one? http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/UX60SC-MB-5ST(80)/H11671DKR-ND/2004588
It's $.63@100pcs
It seems it will fit, but I'll check that.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 01 September 2012, 11:33:04
Looks good to me. Can we get those mounted to the PCB by the fab, or will we need to do final assembly to add these connectors? Some people may not be comfortable with the soldering SMD. Maybe whoever distributes the PCBs will be willing to solder all the USB connectors.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 01 September 2012, 11:38:04
Well, I chose smd so that we can get the cheapest assembly, but have no experience in that matter...
In the worst case we can find a few people (me included) to actually solder the whole thing before shipping if assembly is too expensive.

It would be good if someone who's had experience working with fabhouses shared some of it with us.
I've also checked the prices of a local pcb manufacturer and it seems we can get down to $20@60pcbs. Not sure I calculated this correctly, and I don't know if they have gold-plating.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Bim Gao on Sat, 01 September 2012, 12:01:56
Very interested :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 01 September 2012, 14:41:27
I prefer type B too, but it won't fit to the slot in the poker case...
wait your using the poker case now? I thought this was going to have a custom case. Also arnt pokers hard to get or has that been cleared up? Additionally the DOX revsion that ive been helping on requires a poker case as well and there are already a few PCB designs and firmware and even a plate though my exact layoutis being worked out at this time.

I think that we should stick to a USB Mini B connector. Since that's what is used for the Poker, Pure, HHKB, Rosewill, QFR, Leopold, etc.
MicroB is much more durable than minib

Well, I chose smd so that we can get the cheapest assembly, but have no experience in that matter...
In the worst case we can find a few people (me included) to actually solder the whole thing before shipping if assembly is too expensive.

It would be good if someone who's had experience working with fabhouses shared some of it with us.
I've also checked the prices of a local pcb manufacturer and it seems we can get down to $20@60pcbs. Not sure I calculated this correctly, and I don't know if they have gold-plating.

Are the PCB's going top be finished like the phantom? The reason i ask is the DOX ones not done as nicely because were ordering in much smaller numbers.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 01 September 2012, 14:58:26
No idea how plausible it is and if anyone else would be on board with it, but speaking of finishing... can we get the pcb done in white?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 02 September 2012, 05:54:41
So, I sort of stopped reading on page 4 or so... I just cut down what I am working on for the next round of full size "Phantoms". It's got a bunch of layout options, perhaps a bit ever the top for this project. I think that the arrow layout on the bottom right would be nifty on a small board like this though. See this pdf for layouts http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34392.0;attach=1997

[attach=1]

With overlapping switch footprints the solder pads end up far apart enough to be possible to drill. There is no actual need to rotate footprints because of that. The center holes on the other hand starts to overlap. I don't know how eager the manufacturers are to do drill holes that overlap. I bet it depends on the amount of overlap and the drill sizes. The problem is if the drill drifts into the first hole. This has the possibility of both messing up the PCB as well as snapping the drill bit. Routing is fine though. So I set the overlapping holes up as slot holes, which are routed. Drilling a larger hole overlapping a smaller hole may not be as dangerous since the larger drill will have less tendencies to jump into the first hole. But that situation doesn't arise too frequently for us.

I would suggest using the smaller ATmega32u2 controller. The TQFP packages that are easy to solder by hand are quite a lot larger than the QFN packages the chips on the different Teensy boards use. The ATmega32u2 TQFP32 chip is the same size as the ATmega32u4 QFN44 chip. The 32u2 has a bit fewer pins. There are 20 easily available IO-pins. Then there is the HWB pin which needs to be tied to ground to enter the bootloader at reset. It can be used as an IO-pin but that requires a two button reset procedure (or something similar, software bootloader jumping is fine as well as long as the firmware doesn't hang up). In extreme need of IO-pins the reset pin can be configured as an ordinary IO-pin as well. The downsides to doing this should be pretty obvious...

An 8 by 9 matrix should be enough for a board like this, adding 3 IO-pins for LEDs that sums up to the 20 convenient IO-pins available. A 5 by 14 matrix would probably be much more convenient when laying out traces in this case. With 2 LED lines that still fit the 21 actually usable IO-pins.

PCB mount stabilizer holes can make a mess to any layout =P Especially the ones for the ISO enter overlaps with just about anything ANSI... I think it can still be managed though. In the very worst case they can be made only as 1mm pilot holes. This makes it easy to center a drill to enlarge the holes needed for each individual board. That wouldn't really be recommended for higher volumes though...

Edit: The reset pin may actually be a 23rd IO-pin. I find the datasheet (http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc7799.pdf) a bit confusing on that... Also, I realized that a 7 by 10 matrix is going to be sweet =D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 02 September 2012, 08:29:28
Hi bpiphany,
thanks for your input.
I can see that your Phantom board has even longer slots than we have here, and I have a question.
With such long holes, isn't there a problem with mounting pcb-mount switches? I'm going to ask a pcbfab if they can drill or mill holes so close to each other, because a few overlapping holes would mount the switch more firmly, I suppose. Not sure if this is possible at all, so we may end up doing slots anyway.

As for rotating switches, I hope this is not a problem, and thanks to this we have support for pcb-mount pins in all switches but capslock.

Also, I see that in the design you attached, many solder pads are covered by slots, but I can't see the same in the Phantom pcb photos, it seems that they fit just fine. I currently have one such situation (capslock also) and I'm worried that this will be hard to solder and really fragile. And we have to remember that this will be soldered by the unexperienced.

I've put all the project files on github, so you can all see where we are: https://github.com/komar007/ghkb
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 02 September 2012, 12:53:27
The center hole slots cuts into the solder pads. The two CapsLock footprints on the Phantom are made that way, as well as the Spacebar footprints. The Filco Spacebar footprints are made the same way. That is where I got the idea from. I haven't seen the Phantoms IRL yet of course =P But the ErgoDox has these slots as well. They do look a bit funny, the router bit has only pushed the through plating into the hole a bit, while the glassfiber is gone =)

I haven't made any this long slots before, and I think I would skip the PCB mount holes on the bottom row to get some more material. It would require some more care to get the switches straight while soldering, but that isn't too hard. Put the switch in, solder one pad, put a cap on, re-melt the solder while aligning the key. And presto, a straight key =)

There is also a Poker mount slot there on the right side that takes some more material away.. The FR-4 material is really tough, the center hole slots will not substantially weaken the solder pads. The PCB may be a bit more flexy on the bottom row from taking this much away though.

Edit: I think that mounting slot on the bottom right is a bit misplaced actually...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tenkey on Sun, 02 September 2012, 14:41:52
What software are you guys using to draw the layouts?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Sun, 02 September 2012, 14:53:43
think they use kicad
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 02 September 2012, 15:01:52
Yes, KiCAD it is =)

koomar007, your Cherry footprints  are not according to the specs. I don't know if you have measured the terminals on the switches yourself and they will actually fit (there is some play with Cherry specs), but they are way smaller than specified.

Do you have any switch located on some integer coordinate?.. You seem to have a 19mm spacing between keys, the standard is 0.75" = 19.05mm. That is not a big difference, but over 14 spaces still ~0.7mm.

The USB port on the Poker is not centered between the two switches.

Have you taken your measurements of the Poker yourself? or do you have access to the "real" ones? I don't know if they did it in mm to start with or whatever. I would be interested in knowing the exact locations for mounting holes if you've got them =)

Also, I don't have the build of KiCAD with the "standard" libraries. I always collect all the footprints and components I use for a project directly in the working directory. It makes it a lot easier to share files..
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 02 September 2012, 15:13:38
If you mean the size of pads, they may be wrong, but I'll play with them in the end. As for the positions of everything, I used cherry's webpage (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm)), I hope this part is correct.

Well, I knew there would be problems with kicad files. I'll try to make them shareable.


19.05 mm you say...  I was pretty sure it's 19mm spot on:/, but this should be easily fixable if necessary.
As for positions, I measured the Poker and that's basically what I got.
The pcb starts at (0.5, 0.5)mm so if you subtract that from positions of things, you should get the coordinates with respect to the pcb of the Poker.
EDIT: sorry, that's if you move everything to the edges of the document first.
I'll have to print this layout and try to fit it to poker to check if it's correct.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 02 September 2012, 15:21:02
Well, it all depends on how they actually designed the Poker.. They may well have used 19mm. I just had a look at my scans and measured the spacing to right in between 19mm and 0.75" =D

Using relative coordinates is no problem as long as it is easy to find some place to start =) Space sets the relative origin to the current pointer location.

Your Cherry footprints looked correct except for the solder pad sizes. Overall I think it looks pretty good.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 02 September 2012, 15:31:05
That's good, because I thought something else was wrong too.
The pads are different than specs, that's for sure and now I remember actually making that change.
The drills are 1mm, I'll drill such holes and check if that's enough. If it is, maybe I'll leave it like that. Or maybe larger will be better. That's for hand soldering...

Should I put ALL the libs in the repo? Also stuff like R, C, etc?

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 02 September 2012, 15:46:58
You can put it all there or just copy paste the parts you are actually using into your own components and footprint files. Or I could just find out how to install the standard libraries I guess =P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 02 September 2012, 16:01:59
I fixed schematic, it should be OK now.
The pcb should work fine, I think kicad saves all the footprints inside the .brd file.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 02 September 2012, 16:11:59
Yes, the brd file contains all the info =) I installed the standard libraries, and rebuilt KiCAD from scratch as well.. The only thing missing then was the Cherry switch components in the matrix schematic file. And they still seem to be missing. If I got this git thing correct, and have actually updated =P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 02 September 2012, 16:25:34
The cherry switch should be in mx1a-simple.lib in lib directory.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 02 September 2012, 17:41:06
Ok, so here's a demo of what I have so far.
[attach=1]
What we still need is connections between the matrix and atmega and various dimension bug fixing.
I'm not sure about ground pours. Maybe I should pour the whole area with ground, maybe the other side with VCC to form additional bypass cap.
Or maybe nothing.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 02 September 2012, 22:31:25
I don't really know actually. I guess the danger is that you may introduce a very strong "coupling" to GND if you pour the zones out everywhere. Could increase rise and sink times for the signals I suppose. It doesn't seem to be much of a problem on previous designs though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 03 September 2012, 07:12:43
I know why the USB connector is centered between the switches in my design, and not in the Poker. Because the Poker has all the switches moved a bit. They're not exactly centered with respect to the pcb. I think I'll leave mine centered, that is, 18.5mm from the left edge.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 03 September 2012, 07:25:43
I know why the USB connector is centered between the switches in the Poker and not in my design. Because the Poker has all the switches moved a bit. They're not exactly centered with respect to the pcb. I think I'll leave mine centered.

I don't know if you lost a "not" there, but the USB connector is not centered on the Poker. It is closer to the '~' key than the '1' key. If the switches aren't centered it would look very strange...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 03 September 2012, 07:37:00
Sorry, fixed my post.


EDIT: if you put the pcb on the poker in such a way that the space between pcb and case is the same on the right as on the left, you can see, that the usb connector is moved 0.5mm to the left with respect to the slot in the case. Our design won't have that flaw;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 03 September 2012, 07:43:17
Looks like you are correct that the switches aren't completely centered, funky.. But still, check if the keys are centered in the case. If so, you still want to keep the USB port off-center to have it centered in the hole in the case..
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Mon, 03 September 2012, 08:56:22
The drills are 1mm, I'll drill such holes and check if that's enough. If it is, maybe I'll leave it like that. Or maybe larger will be better. That's for hand soldering...

The hole dimensions are specified in the datasheet so no need to guess:
1.5 (+-) 0.05 (Pads)
1.7 (+-) 0.05 (Fixing pins)
1 (+-) 0.1 (LED or diodes)
4 (+-) 0.1 (Center Hole)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 03 September 2012, 09:05:25
I know, but I thought it would be easier to solder the switches by hand if they fit tight instead of falling out of the board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 03 September 2012, 09:29:57
PCB mount switches hang on to the PCB pretty well with the extra pegs. They are tightly fitted, and also align the switch properly. Through holes for soldering should be a bit bigger than the leads, or so I've heard at least. Makes some sense probably, if nothing else it will be extremely hard to de-solder a lead that fits tightly into its hole.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 03 September 2012, 09:49:36
Okay, I think I'm convinced enough to enlarge them;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Caaaarrrt on Wed, 05 September 2012, 05:33:39
This looks awesome. I'm quite interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Sun, 09 September 2012, 03:11:54
How are things going with this one?  Worried that it's gone a little quiet ;p
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sun, 09 September 2012, 03:14:20
What is the pcb looking like atm? Is the position of the controller final? Will it fit imsto's new aluminium cases?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Sun, 09 September 2012, 03:50:04
I'd like to throw in a request for an alps version, I wanted to try and take it on myself but just haven't got the ability if I'm honest.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 09 September 2012, 05:14:14
Hi,
I know you may be thinking the project is stalled, but it's not;)
Sorry for not updating you, but I had some other projects too. I'll try to finalize the pcb soon.

What is the pcb looking like atm? Is the position of the controller final? Will it fit imsto's new aluminium cases?
The position is not final. I have to make sure the controller won't get in the way with the poker case, because it has some strengthening horizontal bars.
Not sure about imsto's cases though, I only have the original plastic case, but if it's the same mould, it should be fine.


I'd like to throw in a request for an alps version, I wanted to try and take it on myself but just haven't got the ability if I'm honest.
Please find some trustworthy datasheets with footprints for the alps switches and I'll see if it's possible to integrate them to the current design. If not, we can do an alps-only version next time.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Sun, 09 September 2012, 05:33:20
Matias said the datasheets would be ready early September, soon as I see them I'll pass them on. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 12 September 2012, 23:55:05
Hows the work coming along? Also just so you know the bottom of imsto's poker case it completely flat.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 13 September 2012, 11:13:17
Just a quick update:
I got back to the board today and I'm currently fixing alignment problems and positions of crucial parts. I've done the horizontal part, in a while I'll fix the vertical positions.
I also fixed one bug (two switches missing for short right shifts) and corrected the usb socket placement. Also the controller needed a bit of moving things around, because it could get in the way with horizontal bars in the plastic case (not a problem in imsto's case though).

I've also searched for some manufacturers and decided we have two ways to go about the production:
1. PCB and assembly separately
   pros: full control, we see the boards before they're assembled, but I'm not sure this really matters
   cons: we have to buy parts ourselves, make sure to get proper supported reels, or we'll pay more for technicians' work
             someone has to receive the boards, inspect them, send to manufacturer along with the parts, etc
             it's necessary to make sure the boards are compatible with the assembly company (panels or not, dimensions)
2. Full service company - I've found one locally, but obviously there are more all around the world
   pros: we don't care for anything, they buy the parts for us, make pcbs, stencils, pick-and-place and reflow, we get a ready product
   cons: probably we don't get to see if the board is ok before assembly of all of them, unless we ask and probably pay for a prototype


One obvious thing is that I need a prototype before making any real quantity orders and it would be good to have the prototype done by the same company that will later produce the final product. However, if you want to order just one, these companies are much more expensive than those that do single prototypes.


So I think after the pcb is done, I'll order a prototype anywhere just to see if I didn't make mistakes, especially as for component placement and alignment and later we'll have to assume that the final manufacturer won't produce a very different board.


I'm not sure exactly when I'll end the pcb, but if you're interested in an exclusive (well, kind of) pre-production prototype, drop me a PM.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Thu, 13 September 2012, 16:49:49
Too many things have popped up in the last month that I want D: . If any help is needed with programming the controller I could pitch in when needed.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 13 September 2012, 17:41:12
I will need some help eventually, but mostly with the GUI, firmware itself doesn't need much work. Or maybe it will, if so I'll talk to you!
Someone who knows Java/Swing will be very helpful too if we want it to be multiplatform.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Thu, 13 September 2012, 17:43:20
Never really used Java but I co C# for a living and they're close enough I could pick it up fairly quickly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 13 September 2012, 17:45:14
Good. Java is not the only option.
C++/Python/Ruby/etc + Qt/GTK will be ok too.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: metalliqaz on Fri, 14 September 2012, 07:32:25
ugh Java = sad face
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 14 September 2012, 17:10:00
Here's what I have so far:


EDIT: I'm putting a link, no thumbnail. Just in case.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx6f5gr57m5gxc2/kb.png

Electrically speaking, it's missing a reset switch, and that should be it.


I've been measuring and measuring the distances between screw holes both in the case and poker pcb and this is all wrong. I can't measure it reliably so I have a question.


Could someone measure the relative positions of screw holes, put them on a drawing and post them for reference?
It seems I won't manage to do it, maybe my ruler and calipers are all wrong, I don't know.


I need help!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 16 September 2012, 18:23:01
Are we 100% just going with 1.5 1 1.5 7 1.5 1 1.5 bottom row the reason I ask is that that really limits what can be put on that keyboard for keycaps. Also do you think that I could get a blank layout of the GH60 do that I can start messing around with what my layout could potentially be?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 19 September 2012, 21:19:11
there's an issue with the attachment komar was trying to upload in his previous post. i'm working on it. unfortunately the only advice i can give right now is to attempt to make it smaller, komar and re-upload.

SDF(&*#)W(*%*)(#W$# smf *grumble*
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 19 September 2012, 23:28:58
Just a thought...totally off what you guys were currently talking about, but if you want a controller other than the Teensy I can fire up my AIKON controller project again.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 20 September 2012, 01:31:40
Thanks, mkawa.
I edited the post and put a link instead.

EDIT:

Are we 100% just going with 1.5 1 1.5 7 1.5 1 1.5 bottom row the reason I ask is that that really limits what can be put on that keyboard for keycaps. Also do you think that I could get a blank layout of the GH60 do that I can start messing around with what my layout could potentially be?


We have 3 different options for the bottom row, see the current drawing (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx6f5gr57m5gxc2/kb.png (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx6f5gr57m5gxc2/kb.png)).
You can start messing around, just fork the project on github (https://github.com/komar007/ghkb (https://github.com/komar007/ghkb)).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: ferociousfingerings on Wed, 26 September 2012, 02:06:43
Wooo, just seeing this thread for the first time.

1) Awesome
2) i vote that with a typical "ansi" layout, the outside edge of both shift keys should become a single "1x" modifier.
3) I wish i had something more to contribute. :P

I think... small, sturdy, and programmable, would be f'sweet (and bonus points for being able to use "standard" key cap sets for it).

I only recently found the phantom thread on DT, read the whole thing, and was bummed at the end when i realized i'd never get one. :P

This, though... kinda gives me some new hope. (and something to "wait for" lol)

Will certainly stay tuned. ^^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 26 September 2012, 02:51:25
Wooo, just seeing this thread for the first time.

1) Awesome
Cool, that means you're in, right?:P
2) i vote that with a typical "ansi" layout, the outside edge of both shift keys should become a single "1x" modifier.
Currently doable only on the right side. Left side should be possible to, I'll see.
3) I wish i had something more to contribute. :P
When we have at least prototypes, we'll need to finish the controller code and write a layout gui.
We need someone to design the final metal plates, contact manufacturers and have them made.
We need to choose a fabhouse and work with them to get this produced.

Plenty of things to contribute to;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Wed, 26 September 2012, 10:28:07
Diodes in the key matrix?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 26 September 2012, 11:44:06
No, what for?


EDIT: we have an avr with 3-state outputs, so one row is 0 (output, 0), the rest Hi-Z (input, no pullup), and columns are inputs, pull-up. Should work fine.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 26 September 2012, 11:57:22
Diodes in the  matrix so you don't get ghosting.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 26 September 2012, 12:08:59
Diodes don't protect from ghosting, or at least that is not the most important point of them. Diodes actually protect from burning the outputs of an IC when a row is selected by setting it low, while all the other rows are high. When two keys from the same column are pressed at the same time, this makes a short, and who knows what happens.
Our keyboard will leave all the other rows in Hi-Z, so I don't see a reason for diodes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I am wrong;)


EDIT: Okay, I've drawn the schematic an analyzed it. I think I see where my problem is. Sorry for misinformation.


EDIT2: Where do we want the diodes? Next to switches like in Phantom, or inside switches? Or maybe all smd, so that it comes with diodes presoldered.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 26 September 2012, 16:41:02
Diodes don't protect from ghosting, or at least that is not the most important point of them. Diodes actually protect from burning the outputs of an IC when a row is selected by setting it low, while all the other rows are high. When two keys from the same column are pressed at the same time, this makes a short, and who knows what happens.
Our keyboard will leave all the other rows in Hi-Z, so I don't see a reason for diodes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I am wrong;)


EDIT: Okay, I've drawn the schematic an analyzed it. I think I see where my problem is. Sorry for misinformation.


EDIT2: Where do we want the diodes? Next to switches like in Phantom, or inside switches? Or maybe all smd, so that it comes with diodes presoldered.
im were going to need to do the controller smd then might as well make the diodes that as well.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 26 September 2012, 22:53:34
im were going to need to do the controller smd then might as well make the diodes that as well.

This is my feeling exactly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 27 September 2012, 17:21:54
We have 3 different options for the bottom row, see the current drawing (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx6f5gr57m5gxc2/kb.png (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx6f5gr57m5gxc2/kb.png)).
I see three options for the left side and three options for the right side. All options that the Phantom had plus the option of two 1.5 keys together on the left side like on winkeyless Cherry G80-1800 and G80-11800. :D

If I may add a suggestion, how about the the option of having two keys on the Backspace key's position like on the HHKB where the key above ANSI Enter is used for Backspace and the key in the top/right corner is Delete? The situation with switches and orientation is the same as for the right Shift key. (I drew a mockup before I saw that you had already solved the problem...)

EDIT2: Where do we want the diodes? Next to switches like in Phantom, or inside switches? Or maybe all smd, so that it comes with diodes presoldered.
If they are inside switches, then that would add more holes per switch, additional constraints on how switches can be placed and fewer options for layout.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Thu, 27 September 2012, 17:39:11
I am interested in this.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Thu, 27 September 2012, 17:54:06
I don't get the 1.5 mod craz.

I like my 1.25 mods.

Just because korean make it the 1.5 way doesn't need we need to copy them.

Pretty sure Cherry Corp (Germans) were using 1.5x mods before Koreans.....

They just look nicer, imo.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mm87 on Thu, 27 September 2012, 18:19:40
Interested, especially in winkeyless layout with 1.5-1-1.5 mods and full 2.75 right shift, like this 356mini:

(http://i.imgur.com/IS1YE.jpg)
(source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/4191734)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tenkey on Thu, 27 September 2012, 18:57:17
Interested, especially in winkeyless layout with 1.5-1-1.5 mods and full 2.75 right shift, like this 356mini:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/IS1YE.jpg)

(source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/4191734)

That is the best looking layout imo
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Thu, 27 September 2012, 18:59:43
I like it quite a bit
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 27 September 2012, 19:13:32
Me too!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: metalliqaz on Thu, 27 September 2012, 19:25:20
Interested, especially in winkeyless layout with 1.5-1-1.5 mods and full 2.75 right shift, like this 356mini:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/IS1YE.jpg)

(source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/4191734)

Awesomest thing I ever did see
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Thu, 27 September 2012, 20:35:42
The multiple possibilities with the layout is just about as cool as the program-ability.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 27 September 2012, 23:24:08
Yea it should be a clone of the phantom so should all the layouts be possible.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JonDBurnett on Sun, 30 September 2012, 04:47:00
i am also extremely interested in this.   and i also think it would be awesome to have a custom built keyboard.   we will be the envy of everyone everywhere!!  :cool:
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 02 October 2012, 00:23:00
Yea it should be a clone of the phantom so should all the layouts be possible.
minus that stupid 7bit spacebar I couldnt get used a non standard spacebar for the life of me even got custom plates to remedy the issue.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Icarium on Tue, 02 October 2012, 06:08:41
It definitely needs a 7bit or japanese bottom-row option, I don't want to waste all that space on just space, especially not on a 60%!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 02 October 2012, 08:07:48
It definitely needs a 7bit or japanese bottom-row option, I don't want to waste all that space on just space, especially not on a 60%!

May get very busy with the controller being there.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 02 October 2012, 11:37:26
It definitely needs a 7bit or japanese bottom-row option, I don't want to waste all that space on just space, especially not on a 60%!

May get very busy with the controller being there.
the room under the space is needed for the controller because you cant put it between the num and function row.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: phetto on Tue, 02 October 2012, 11:53:50
Interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 02 October 2012, 12:15:12
There are like 15 officially interested now, it looks promising.
This doesn't change the fact that we need like 35 more to get decent assembly prices...
I got back to kicad today after I ended my semester project, so I can hopefully bring this to an end soon.
Just saying, so that you know I didn't drop it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fruktstund on Tue, 02 October 2012, 12:25:15
Even though it says "IC" right in the thread title, I haven't really thought about this thread as an interest check. :) I am interested, for the record. The layout on the Poker makes me a sad vegetable, so why not?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Tue, 02 October 2012, 14:40:41
I made a post in the Phantom thread that could benefit this project too. A couple of extra points to solder the LEDs under caps lock and the other would allow for MX Lock to be used.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: osxoep on Tue, 02 October 2012, 14:58:56
I'm a major newbie here.

How much would I have to do myself as a part of this? Would I just get the PCB?
It seems perfect to get an ISO layout 60% KB.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 02 October 2012, 15:00:22
How much would I have to do myself as a part of this? Would I just get the PCB?

You solder the switches, put the keycaps on and you're good to go. You can also add a Poker/imsto case it you want to;)


I made a post in the Phantom thread that could benefit this project too. A couple of extra points to solder the LEDs under caps lock and the other would allow for MX Lock to be used.


I was going to use the last easily-usable pin of atmega to add an LED somewhere in the lower right corner, because I was actually going to mount 2 MX Locks in my GH60 there for layer changing.


Where's that thread exactly?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Tue, 02 October 2012, 15:08:02
The post explains what one has to do to make the off center LED of the MX Lock work with the Scroll Lock switch on the Phantom. The caps lock works perfectly fine in the left position because the LED will hit a hole each of the right and left position of the switch.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23572.msg676260#msg676260

Basically, you would need to have three soldering points to each LED and switch to allow the LED to be rotated and placed slightly shifted. An example would be:

ACO for centered LED
OCA for off center LED

A = Anode Lead
C = Cathode Lead
O = Unused soldering point
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 02 October 2012, 15:23:31
So this basically means one more hole with VCC to the right of the 4 existing.
It should be possible to put an LED in MX Lock in both positions with little bending.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Tue, 02 October 2012, 15:31:47
I did make some cuts to get the leads to come out in the center. Note that MX Lock has a wheel in the front which is in the way too if you want to bend the leads. It would be much easier to just add a hole as you mentioned. I use X to denote a blank, to make it centered.

XACA
or
XCAC

and then you can place the led:

XACA
or
XACA

Luckily, one lead coincides with both the centered LED and the off centered one.

This means three LED holes for each switch that are supposed to have LEDs to allow for easy mounting of MX Locks there, and yes, since caps lock has two positions it need five.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: osxoep on Tue, 02 October 2012, 15:33:00
You solder the switches, put the keycaps on and you're good to go. You can also add a Poker/imsto case it you want to;)
Okay, doesn't sound too hard :P

Is there an estimate on the price? And I assume I would buy the caps separately or will there be a GB along side this one?

[/thread clutter]
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 02 October 2012, 15:39:49
I recommend imsto's thick pbt sets for this keyboard.:D
You may also have to buy the switches yourself. I don't know if anyone organizes a group buy just for GH60, but it would be definitely cool.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: phetto on Tue, 02 October 2012, 15:45:55
7bit sells switchez


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 02 October 2012, 15:46:13
7bits doing switches.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 02 October 2012, 15:56:46
I know, just got reds from him today.
But the ideal option would be to send to people soldered boards with a box of switches all in one package.


If I manage to have the boards produced myself, I can talk with him and make a big order so that you don't pay double shipping.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 02 October 2012, 17:26:43
I'd love for it to be plate mount, if someone can whip up a dwg of the plate I'm sure I can have it cut for pretty cheap (if enough people order plates that is)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jessecoleman on Tue, 02 October 2012, 22:47:53
I would like to add my name to the IC list. Hope this project goes through, as I'd love a 60% board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 03 October 2012, 00:47:57
There are like 15 officially interested now, it looks promising.
This doesn't change the fact that we need like 35 more to get decent assembly prices...
I got back to kicad today after I ended my semester project, so I can hopefully bring this to an end soon.
Just saying, so that you know I didn't drop it.
you could pm ishtob he should have pricing on dox pcb i think he may have better pricing.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 03 October 2012, 00:53:46
I'd love for it to be plate mount, if someone can whip up a dwg of the plate I'm sure I can have it cut for pretty cheap (if enough people order plates that is)
agreed it should be platemounted.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: KennyR on Wed, 03 October 2012, 04:40:42
I'm interested!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Wed, 03 October 2012, 08:07:13
Not sure if I'm on the interest list yet, but I'm definitely in.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Loligagger on Wed, 03 October 2012, 11:44:43
Would the pcb have any trouble fitting into treble's aluminum poker case? The supporting ridges in his aren't in the same place as the stock case. It shouldn't be too much of a worry but it warrants checking.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OddOne on Wed, 03 October 2012, 11:51:19
I've been following this thread as well, but just haven't posted.  Count me in as interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Nask on Wed, 03 October 2012, 12:02:41
I don't even know if there is list of interested people, and if there's one, sure I'm.
Still reading/lurking this thread and try to think how could I help.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Wed, 03 October 2012, 12:18:33
I'm interested too, if we're checking.

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: pasph on Wed, 03 October 2012, 16:04:26
Interested in an ISO one
Title: .
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 04 October 2012, 16:07:32
.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Thu, 04 October 2012, 16:09:59
Is there an actual list somewhere and is anyone keeping track?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 04 October 2012, 16:18:09
No list... but whoever thinks of doing the work to make one might be more motivated with all this interest.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 04 October 2012, 16:18:23
I'm sure there is enough interest to move it forward, the only question is how good of pricing will be due to volume.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Thu, 04 October 2012, 16:28:31
I think we should spread it more. It will probably be the FIRST EVER small ISO board. There is no ISO board smaller than TKL as far as I know.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 04 October 2012, 16:33:17
I don't think the issue at this point is interest level.  There's no one stepping up to create the PCB and there are a whole lot of other details that need solid decisions, like the case.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 04 October 2012, 16:46:47
It looks like the interest is now much higher, or at least much more pronounced. That's cool. We can easily go for production with that many people.

The PCB is nearly done, I had a delay because of my university project.
Currently I only need to make decisions connected with mounting hole placement so that I'm sure it fits the poker case.
There is no metal plate designed though, which on the other hand can be produced later. Not everybody wants it with the plate, hopefully.


EDIT: Here's the current state of the PCB: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iizh3llzqu1jcyo/kb2.png
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Thu, 04 October 2012, 20:48:53
I'm very interested as well. It'll be a learning experience.

But a programmable keyboard, with a good layout, and being able to dual layer sounds exactly like what i was looking for.

Unfortunately I'm a complete noob, so i can't help :(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 05 October 2012, 01:20:10
Looks great. I wonder if we shouldn't sneak plates in with beasts GB, it will lower the cost of his plates too.

Btw, you put one too many soldering points of the LED. The rightmost won't be reached, even with off center LED in a switch mounted to the right.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 05 October 2012, 01:22:11
Ask beast otherwise i know a place and can get a quote if i have a file.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 05 October 2012, 01:29:42
Looks great. I wonder if we shouldn't sneak plates in with beasts GB, it will lower the cost of his plates too.

Btw, you put one too many soldering points of the LED. The rightmost won't be reached, even with off center LED in a switch mounted to the right.

I'll be more than willing to run it, but my deadline for the poker plates is 11/1 and not a day later (it may even be sooner because the 11/1 deadline is for 20 plates order, not the ~60 pre-ordered I have right now).

Also, I don't think it would lower the price because this guy charges based on the plate design. I even think that 2 plates are 99% the same but one has a GH logo and the other doesn't, I think he charges for single 2 plate designs and not 1 design with a small change. Plus, I'm pretty sure the 60 plates I have pre-ordered aren't going to lower the price that much more than the $10.99 quote he gave me for 20 plates ordered (material costs).


Gimme a plate dwg and I'll ask him next time I email him ^___^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Fri, 05 October 2012, 02:30:12
It looks like the interest is now much higher, or at least much more pronounced. That's cool. We can easily go for production with that many people.

The PCB is nearly done, I had a delay because of my university project.
Currently I only need to make decisions connected with mounting hole placement so that I'm sure it fits the poker case.
There is no metal plate designed though, which on the other hand can be produced later. Not everybody wants it with the plate, hopefully.


EDIT: Here's the current state of the PCB: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iizh3llzqu1jcyo/kb2.png

Nice work mate, but I think most people will want the plate. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Fri, 05 October 2012, 06:49:11
Decided to tally up the actual interest count here. Let me know if you want your name added or removed from this list. There was a couple of people who seemed to be interested but didn't officially say it so I didn't add you for now lol. Maybe jdcarpe can take over from here and paste this into post 1.

Interested:

jdcarpe
komar007
The_Beast
alixinhzai
damorgue
elton5354
sth
lysol
tgujay
longweight
modulor
jil_jil32
tjweir
metalliqaz
TheProfosist
Glissant
Tenkey
nntnam
Loligagger
Bim Gao
dirge
nebo
ferociousfingerings
MagicMeatball
mm87
JonDBurnett
phetto
fruktstund
FusRoDah
jessecoleman
KennyR
OddOne
Nask
salmo
pasph
esoomenona
kravlin
neeb
Hzza
osxoep

Total: 40
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Hzza on Fri, 05 October 2012, 06:57:03
Add me to the officially interested list please.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: osxoep on Fri, 05 October 2012, 07:18:26
Go on. Add me on the list.

I've set aside a few weeks student loans :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Fri, 05 October 2012, 07:41:37
Add me to the officially interested list please.

Go on. Add me on the list.

I've set aside a few weeks student loans :D

Added. And lol @ the student loans xD!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 05 October 2012, 09:05:21
You can add me to the IC list, as well.

And what else are student loans for?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 05 October 2012, 09:05:54
Added list of interested parties to first post. Thanks, neeb!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Fri, 05 October 2012, 09:12:52
Added list of interested parties to first post. Thanks, neeb!

No problem. Let's bring this bad boy to life!! Really awesome progress so far, to all of you that have been working on this. I wish I knew half as much as you guys do so I could contribute something useful but I'm just a poor little neeb for now xD!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: i3oilermaker on Fri, 05 October 2012, 09:22:01
I'm interested, possibly in more that one.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: boost on Fri, 05 October 2012, 09:23:25
Put me in for 1
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 05 October 2012, 09:53:47
If it were to have an extra column to the right, I would get 3 instead of 1 and I would also have a Phantom and a kidney for sale.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: duq on Fri, 05 October 2012, 09:54:46
Please count me in.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Razer1987 on Fri, 05 October 2012, 10:03:56
I am in for ISO, great idea
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Fri, 05 October 2012, 10:29:09
If it were to have an extra column to the right, I would get 3 instead of 1 and I would also have a Phantom and a kidney for sale.

Not a bad design idea...this could theoretically have a bottom row of | 1.5 | 1.5 | Space | 1.5 | 1.5 | 1 | 1 | 1 | and have a dedicated arrow block, moving Fn over one and 3 additional keys above that.  It would have to have a proprietary case made, however.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 05 October 2012, 10:33:10
If it incorporated my arrow block design I might even have considered using my Poker.. I guess I  will need to do my own version once I have the time (which by the way won't be any time soon..) =D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 05 October 2012, 13:02:52
Keep it 15x5, don't f*ck with that. If you want something else there are other board projects like the KS mini.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alvinliang on Fri, 05 October 2012, 13:18:38
interest
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tenkey on Fri, 05 October 2012, 15:16:46
put me down for 1
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Fri, 05 October 2012, 15:53:42
put me down for 1

think you're on the list twice now lol
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 05 October 2012, 16:20:09
That just means you have to buy 2.

J/K. Fixed.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Appeac on Fri, 05 October 2012, 16:31:46
Count me as interested, although money's a bit tight and I couldn't do it if the price got too astronomical... I'd love a project to get my soldering iron dirty again.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tenkey on Fri, 05 October 2012, 22:51:53
put me down for 1

think you're on the list twice now lol

 :cool:
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: phetto on Sat, 06 October 2012, 00:24:23
add me on the list :]
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sun, 07 October 2012, 00:04:25
Been following this thread every since jdcarpe started it, and finally decided for sure that I want this now. Add me to the list also :).

The PCB looks pretty crammed. What does it take to add LEDs in all the switchtes for a backlit effect? Does it need separate traces for all the LEDs or can they share the same electrical trace as the switches? How would the controller handle the LEDs? I know that's a lot of question, but the PURE is in this form factor and has LEDs. So it's doable, now I'm just wondering how hard it would be to implement it in this case.

And also, what is required to add USB hubs similar to HHKB? It's been mentioned earlier in this thread but I think it needs a separate chip for this because the ATmega34u does not have anymore spare pins?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: phetto on Sun, 07 October 2012, 01:03:39
woah! Im in the list 2 times :D
Should probably change that since i only want one board ^______^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Sun, 07 October 2012, 05:39:55
Been following this thread every since jdcarpe started it, and finally decided for sure that I want this now. Add me to the list also :).

The PCB looks pretty crammed. What does it take to add LEDs in all the switchtes for a backlit effect? Does it need separate traces for all the LEDs or can they share the same electrical trace as the switches? How would the controller handle the LEDs? I know that's a lot of question, but the PURE is in this form factor and has LEDs. So it's doable, now I'm just wondering how hard it would be to implement it in this case.

And also, what is required to add USB hubs similar to HHKB? It's been mentioned earlier in this thread but I think it needs a separate chip for this because the ATmega34u does not have anymore spare pins?

From what I can tell, this keyboard has gotten progressively more complicated since the idea was first brought up so that it would be able to accommodate a bunch of different layouts and stuff. I would think that at this point (komar said the PCB is just about finished) it may not be very easy to add anything else.

I also have absolutely no involvement in the production/design of this though, lol, so maybe it can be done I'm really not sure. I would love to hear an update from komar, this thing is coming along nicely and I'm getting excited :D!!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 07 October 2012, 06:10:56
Been following this thread every since jdcarpe started it, and finally decided for sure that I want this now. Add me to the list also :) .

The PCB looks pretty crammed. What does it take to add LEDs in all the switchtes for a backlit effect? Does it need separate traces for all the LEDs or can they share the same electrical trace as the switches? How would the controller handle the LEDs? I know that's a lot of question, but the PURE is in this form factor and has LEDs. So it's doable, now I'm just wondering how hard it would be to implement it in this case.

And also, what is required to add USB hubs similar to HHKB? It's been mentioned earlier in this thread but I think it needs a separate chip for this because the ATmega34u does not have anymore spare pins?

From what I can tell, this keyboard has gotten progressively more complicated since the idea was first brought up so that it would be able to accommodate a bunch of different layouts and stuff. I would think that at this point (komar said the PCB is just about finished) it may not be very easy to add anything else.

I also have absolutely no involvement in the production/design of this though, lol, so maybe it can be done I'm really not sure. I would love to hear an update from komar, this thing is coming along nicely and I'm getting excited :D !!

I think this keyboard doesn't have backlight mainly because it doesn't have backlight;)
It was just designed as a poker replacement pcb with full programmability and a few available layouts. Not KBT Pure.


Technically speaking, it's possible. In practice, to have enough pins we'd need to redesign the matrix to be 8x8, not 5x14, increase the traces count by a half and add a darlington array to control rows or columns, and that means one more SO20 chip. Doable, but I've tried already and it gets pretty dense. We could also go with only all leds on/all leds off instead of individual control, but this still requires some more traces.
A different problem is there are some switches which are rotated to eliminate pad overlapping. In order to support leds, I'd have to put all of them in the same orientation. This would make support pins overlap with the main switch holes, making it more unstable in plate-less version.


As for updates, sorry none yet. Nearly all the design work is done, now I'm choosing elements. I need to find things which I can both easily buy in small quantities for prototype and on reels, so that the assembly company can pick and place them easily.
So it's mainly decisions time. I'm going to contact the pcb prototyping company on Monday and hopefully send the prototype design by the end of the week.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Sun, 07 October 2012, 06:14:58
I think this keyboard doesn't have backlight mainly because it doesn't have backlight;)
It was just designed as a poker replacement pcb with full programmability and a few available layouts. Not KBT Pure.


Technically speaking, it's possible. In practice, to have enough pins we'd need to redesign the matrix to be 8x8, not 5x14, increase the traces count by a half and add a darlington array to control rows or columns, and that means one more SO20 chip. Doable, but I've tried already and it gets pretty dense. We could also go with only all leds on/all leds off instead of individual control, but this still requires some more traces.
A different problem is there are some switches which are rotated to eliminate pad overlapping. In order to support leds, I'd have to put all of them in the same orientation. This would make support pins overlap with the main switch holes, making it more unstable in plate-less version.


As for updates, sorry none yet. Nearly all the design work is done, now I'm choosing elements. I need to find things which I can both easily buy in small quantities for prototype and on reels, so that the assembly company can pick and place them easily.
So it's mainly decisions time. I'm going to contact the pcb prototyping company on Monday and hopefully send the prototype design by the end of the week.

Sounds good, komar. I just want to say again, amazing work you've done so far, man! And also the others in this thread that have contributed, really awesome stuff :)

This may not be very easy to estimate yet but I figured I may as well ask xD, do you have any idea how long it might be until you have all of the parts to put together a prototype to start messing around with?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 07 October 2012, 06:19:03
The company's lead time is 2 weeks as far as I remember, so if I order by the end of the week, I should have a working prototype in 3 weeks from now.
Later everything depends on whether there are errors in the design;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Viz on Sun, 07 October 2012, 07:59:44
Good luck with this project, i'm waiting eagerly to see how it turns out.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Grimey on Sun, 07 October 2012, 09:42:53
I can be added as an interested party for single at least.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 07 October 2012, 16:38:32
Add me to the interested too!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Caaaarrrt on Sun, 07 October 2012, 17:56:26
Add me to the list for one thanks!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sun, 07 October 2012, 20:36:53
Add meh!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sun, 07 October 2012, 20:45:20
The company's lead time is 2 weeks as far as I remember, so if I order by the end of the week, I should have a working prototype in 3 weeks from now.
Later everything depends on whether there are errors in the design;)

What layouts does it support? Is it like the 365 mini because that's the one I liked the most.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Sun, 07 October 2012, 21:03:30
Hey jdcarpe, I've compiled some information about this project that I would kindly suggest putting in the first post. For people that are viewing this for the first time, it doesn't appear like there's much going on here unless you read all 10 pages of the thread lol. I think having some additional information on the first page would attract more people that may be interested but would have otherwise overlooked this beauty!

All of the following information has been confirmed by komar007 (for those of you that don't know who he is, komar is basically this project's lead engineer, or w/e is the best thing to call him lol).

The GH60 Custom Keyboard or "Phantom Mini"

This is a 60% Geekhack custom keyboard that will be somewhat similar to the Phantom (http://i.imgur.com/gRQgV.jpg), but it will not include the function row, arrows, or insert key group.


(http://i.imgur.com/7Zb65.png)


-The GH60 will be fully programmable with multi-layer support (possibly up to 16 layers)

-Will include a plate but is also designed to support PCB mounting for those interested

Supported Layouts:

-Normal/Standard Ansi layout
-ISO layout (vertical enter key, smaller left shift, additional key to the left of "z" key)
-1.75x right shift, allowing extra 1x Fn/Mod/etc key to the right or left of the right shift key
-Model M "winkeyless" style layout with 1.5x - 0 - 1.5x modifier keys on left and right sides, with 7x spacebar
-lysol's proposed layout (http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp349/lysol8086/4cbbb5f6.png) with two 1.5x modifiers on the left and 1.5x - 1x - 1x - 1.5x on the right, with 7x spacebar


Here's komar's sketch of the different options available for more information:

Ok, so before I get to do the board, here's my proposed image, which shows all possible layouts. It seems this can be achieved, but we'll see how the pads for switches will fit.
Please correct any mistakes now, before I lay out the board;)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/H6fvq.png)


Legend:
The basic ISO with 1.25 mods and 6.25 spacebar is drawn gray.
I marked some alternative options with green, they are 1/16 unit (unit = 19mm) smaller on all sides, not to interfere with gray lines.
In some places it was necessary to use blue, where I overlaid them on top of both gray and green. In such case the caps are 1/16 unit smaller on top and bottom, and as large as the green overlay horizontally.

The supported alternatives to gray layout are (can be mixed together):
* ISO layout (vertical enter and complementary "#" (marked green), and shorter left shift with additional key to the left from "z" (also green))
* extra fn/mod/whatever either to the left or right from right shift, making it 1.75u instead of 2.75u (marked green and blue)
* model-m-like 1.5-1-1.5 modifier on the left and right side of the spacebar (7u) (marked green)
* lysol's layout with two 1.5 mods on the left and 1.5-1-1-1.5 combo on the right (spacebar 7u) (marked blue)


Case Compatibility:

-Fits Poker cases


If any of my terminology is incorrect, feel free to let me know. I'm pretty noob at all of this, just trying to help out as much as I can because I think this is an awesome project :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sun, 07 October 2012, 21:08:07
Will is support a 1.5 0 1.5 spacebar 1.5 0 1.5 but without the short right shift/FN key?


Basically the pic you have above but with a standard sized shift button
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Sun, 07 October 2012, 21:11:04
Will is support a 1.5 0 1.5 spacebar 1.5 0 1.5 but without the short right shift/FN key?


Basically the pic you have above but with a standard sized shift button

Isn't that this?

-Model M "winkeyless" style layout with 1.5x - 0 - 1.5x modifier keys on left and right sides, with 7x spacebar

Edit: I guess that doesn't clarify whether or not the Fn key is on there. Hmm. I'm not sure, we'll have to wait to hear from komar on that I guess.

Edit2: Unless I'm looking at this incorrectly, it shouldn't be a problem; here's komar's sketch of the different options available:

Ok, so before I get to do the board, here's my proposed image, which shows all possible layouts. It seems this can be achieved, but we'll see how the pads for switches will fit.
Please correct any mistakes now, before I lay out the board;)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/H6fvq.png)


Legend:
The basic ISO with 1.25 mods and 6.25 spacebar is drawn gray.
I marked some alternative options with green, they are 1/16 unit (unit = 19mm) smaller on all sides, not to interfere with gray lines.
In some places it was necessary to use blue, where I overlaid them on top of both gray and green. In such case the caps are 1/16 unit smaller on top and bottom, and as large as the green overlay horizontally.

The supported alternatives to gray layout are (can be mixed together):
* ISO layout (vertical enter and complementary "#" (marked green), and shorter left shift with additional key to the left from "z" (also green))
* extra fn/mod/whatever either to the left or right from right shift, making it 1.75u instead of 2.75u (marked green and blue)
* model-m-like 1.5-1-1.5 modifier on the left and right side of the spacebar (7u) (marked green)
* lysol's layout with two 1.5 mods on the left and 1.5-1-1-1.5 combo on the right (spacebar 7u) (marked blue)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JC_III on Sun, 07 October 2012, 21:26:21
Put me down for one please.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sun, 07 October 2012, 21:32:24
Since he spec'd the grey layout as his baseline, looks like standard right shift is in. 

The fun part is going to be all the plate variations that people want :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Sun, 07 October 2012, 21:37:12
I think it will support any standard alpha-num layout available, those of which are interchangeable among each other (as in, you can combine any R1 combo with any R2 combo, and with ANSI or ISO Enter cluster layout, etc.).  There is an option for the Right Shift/Fn cluster to have it [ 2.75 ] - [ 1 | 1.75 ] -or-  [ 1.75 | 1 ] as on the Left Shift you can either have ANSI [ 2.25 ] or ISO [ 1.25 ].  At least that's how I've understood it so far.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sun, 07 October 2012, 21:42:56
Since he spec'd the grey layout as his baseline, looks like standard right shift is in. 

The fun part is going to be all the plate variations that people want :)

That should be fun for the person running that GB

 :'(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Sun, 07 October 2012, 22:00:29
Since he spec'd the grey layout as his baseline, looks like standard right shift is in. 

The fun part is going to be all the plate variations that people want :)

That should be fun for the person running that GB

 :'(


I can't imagine there would have to be a plate design for every possible layout...that would be madness!  I'd say take a vote for the most popular 2-3 layouts.  If alot of people are doing this to have an ISO 60%, then that may be a popular choice, but you've gotta put your foot down somewhere! lol
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sun, 07 October 2012, 22:07:25
Since he spec'd the grey layout as his baseline, looks like standard right shift is in. 

The fun part is going to be all the plate variations that people want :)

That should be fun for the person running that GB

 :'(


I can't imagine there would have to be a plate design for every possible layout...that would be madness!  I'd say take a vote for the most popular 2-3 layouts.  If alot of people are doing this to have an ISO 60%, then that may be a popular choice, but you've gotta put your foot down somewhere! lol

I'll run any plate design if a .dwg is provided to me. However ordering just one or two is going to be ~$25 per plate even on a small plate.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Sun, 07 October 2012, 22:27:29
Ah, well...people will likely still pay the premium for personal layouts.  That's cool of you to offer many options, though.  I'm pretty excited to get my Poker plate, I'm currently making a custom case for it out of wood, so the plate will add some extra weight.  ^-^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sun, 07 October 2012, 22:29:40
Ah, well...people will likely still pay the premium for personal layouts.  That's cool of you to offer many options, though.  I'm pretty excited to get my Poker plate, I'm currently making a custom case for it out of wood, so the plate will add some extra weight.  ^-^

If you're ordering mine, about 1/3 of a lbs (based on volume of the plate x density of stainless steel)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 08 October 2012, 01:14:22
You should already have me down for 2 of these i hope. Though I have no clue where im getting cases for them.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 08 October 2012, 03:13:07

Question answering time!


Will is support a 1.5 0 1.5 spacebar 1.5 0 1.5 but without the short right shift/FN key?
Basically, yes. In practice if you put nothing between alt and ctrl, you'll have exposed holes in the pcb. The shift layout is independent from bottom row - see next quotes.
Depending on which plates will be produced, there may be one which covers the space between alt and ctrl or not. If there isn't, look at this post:
I'll run any plate design if a .dwg is provided to me. However ordering just one or two is going to be ~$25 per plate even on a small plate.


What layouts does it support? Is it like the 365 mini because that's the one I liked the most.
The best answer to this is this post:
I think it will support any standard alpha-num layout available, those of which are interchangeable among each other (as in, you can combine any R1 combo with any R2 combo, and with ANSI or ISO Enter cluster layout, etc.).  There is an option for the Right Shift/Fn cluster to have it [ 2.75 ] - [ 1 | 1.75 ] -or-  [ 1.75 | 1 ] as on the Left Shift you can either have ANSI [ 2.25 ] or ISO [ 1.25 ].  At least that's how I've understood it so far.
Let's make this official: three clusters, configurable independently by soldering switches to right places:
* enter zone: ANSI 2.25 enter and 1.5 "|\", ISO vertical enter with one key to the right of "
* left shift zone (2 options): ANSI 2.25, ISO 1.25 + 1u key
* right shift zone (3 options): ANSI/ISO 2.75, short 1.75 + 1u key to the right, short 1.75 + 1u key to the left
* bottom row (3 options): standard poker (3x1.25,6.25,4x1.25), model m (1.5,1,1.5,7,1.5,1,1.5), lysol (1.5,1.5,7,1.5,2x1,1.5).
For those of you who don't want to solder switches yourself I may provide a soldering service if I get enough orders to buy switches from cherry at sensible prices, or from 7bit.


Komar, if i'll already have plate for Poker will i be able to use it with standard ANSI GH60? I do remember reading in this thread about that Poker switchers are shifted a little bit or something like that. Did you take that into account with latest revisions?
So far the distances between switches are 19mm spot on. This is different than standard 19.05 and slightly different than poker, I think. Most probably I'll change it to be the same as in poker, but I can't promise anything.


I can't imagine there would have to be a plate design for every possible layout...that would be madness!  I'd say take a vote for the most popular 2-3 layouts.  If alot of people are doing this to have an ISO 60%, then that may be a popular choice, but you've gotta put your foot down somewhere! lol
Designing plates for all options is not a problem, there are only 18 of them, so it's a matter of designing a base drawing, then a total of 8 small parts for the 3 clusters and then someone has to sit down and copy and paste these clusters in 18 different variants.
I definitely think we should settle upon at most 2 different plates (I think model m style bottom row was considered), ISO and ANSI, to satisfy most people at lowest price, and then provide drawings for all of them, so that everybody can send them to The_Beast and get whichever option they want.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 08 October 2012, 03:17:43
Thanks a ton for answering my question ^___^

There could be two plates, model m with no cutout for keys and then a "1.5 1 1.5 spacebar 1.5 1 1.5" option as well
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Mon, 08 October 2012, 03:37:19
Let's make this official: three clusters, configurable independently by soldering switches to right places:
* left shift (2 options): ANSI 2.25, ISO 1.25 + 1u key
* right shift (3 options): ANSI/ISO 2.75, short 1.75 + 1u key to the right, short 1.75 + 1u key to the left
* bottom row (3 options): standard poker (3x1.25,6.25,4x1.25), model m (1.5,1,1.5,7,1.5,1,1.5), lysol (1.5,1.5,7,1.5,2x1,1.5).
For those of you who don't want to solder switches yourself I may provide a soldering service if I get enough orders to buy switches from cherry at sensible prices, or from 7bit.

There is a fourth cluster, you forgot the actual ISO or ANSI enter.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 08 October 2012, 04:08:23
There is a fourth cluster, you forgot the actual ISO or ANSI enter.

Sorry, of course. I'll edit when I come back home.


EDIT: edited
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Mon, 08 October 2012, 09:40:17
With all those options there would be nothing wrong if I used the model m bottom row and just didn't put in meta keys right? Otherwise it looks like I'd just be getting a poker more or less.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 08 October 2012, 09:53:25
With all those options there would be nothing wrong if I used the model m bottom row and just didn't put in meta keys right?
Correct.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hasu on Mon, 08 October 2012, 10:11:32
Great work, komar077!

The idea of programmable compact keyboard intrigues me very much.
I'd like to take one PCB at least to replace my Poker's ****ty firmware.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 08 October 2012, 10:13:30
I think I said I was down for one, I'd definitely be in for at least 2 now that I see all the layout options
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Mon, 08 October 2012, 10:14:58
With all those options there would be nothing wrong if I used the model m bottom row and just didn't put in meta keys right?
Correct.
Great! Now I just need to figure out how I'm going to get a case for that . . . .
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 08 October 2012, 10:17:25
With all those options there would be nothing wrong if I used the model m bottom row and just didn't put in meta keys right?
Correct.
Great! Now I just need to figure out how I'm going to get a case for that . . . .

Well the standard pastic poker case should work. There is also, treb, oneproducts and imsto's poker cases that would all be great with this board
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Mon, 08 October 2012, 10:23:04
With all those options there would be nothing wrong if I used the model m bottom row and just didn't put in meta keys right?
Correct.
Great! Now I just need to figure out how I'm going to get a case for that . . . .

Well the standard pastic poker case should work. There is also, treb, oneproducts and imsto's poker cases that would all be great with this board

Although we can't be sure that any of those fit for sure, right? Just because this is made to fit the case of the Poker, and those other cases fit the Poker PCB does not directly imply that the GH60 will fit in those other cases. I really hoe they will though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 08 October 2012, 10:29:03
With all those options there would be nothing wrong if I used the model m bottom row and just didn't put in meta keys right?
Correct.
Great! Now I just need to figure out how I'm going to get a case for that . . . .

Well the standard pastic poker case should work. There is also, treb, oneproducts and imsto's poker cases that would all be great with this board

Although we can't be sure that any of those fit for sure, right? Just because this is made to fit the case of the Poker, and those other cases fit the Poker PCB does not directly imply that the GH60 will fit in those other cases. I really hoe they will though.

I was pretty sure that komar007 was designing the PCB to fit those cases. I'll wait for komar007 to confirm tho
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 08 October 2012, 10:32:20
Well, if you send me those cases, you can be pretty sure it'll fit all of them. Otherwise It'll fit the kbc poker case for sure, and others maybe;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Mon, 08 October 2012, 11:04:43
With all those options there would be nothing wrong if I used the model m bottom row and just didn't put in meta keys right?
Correct.
Great! Now I just need to figure out how I'm going to get a case for that . . . .

Well the standard pastic poker case should work. There is also, treb, oneproducts and imsto's poker cases that would all be great with this board
I was more wanting the meta key covered and I'd prefer an aluminum case which would be pretty much just me. I'm not sure if I could keep it as one piece and just slide the pcb in, would have to work on a design for it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Mon, 08 October 2012, 14:11:10
Hey jdcarpe, are you still around? It would be nice if you could update the original post now that we have a lot of information finalized :D

Edit: We should also update the IC list
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Nunez on Tue, 09 October 2012, 04:47:10
I have quite the interest in said board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 09 October 2012, 05:43:11
I finally borrowed a decent pair of calipers, and it appears that not only was mine crap, but the 30cm ruler I used all the time was a milimeter off... Crazy.
Finally everything adds up, I'm also changing keyswitch spacings to 19.05 (.75"), it seems the poker and basically everything else is compatible with it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: ZcHuer on Tue, 09 October 2012, 06:20:37
Would be very interested!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: ferociousfingerings on Tue, 09 October 2012, 18:29:35
I would personally like it to be a 65-70% with the function row or an extra column, but that may just be me.
There's a thread for that...It's called the KS Mini. :P

And where might said thread be?
Sounds interesting...
Title: .
Post by: esoomenona on Tue, 09 October 2012, 18:31:05
.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: ferociousfingerings on Tue, 09 October 2012, 18:59:44
And where might said thread be?
Sounds interesting...
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35108.0

Awesome, thanks.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: 4LI4Z on Thu, 11 October 2012, 10:55:19
Very interested. 60% ISO Keyboard, Awesome!  :eek:
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mars-bar-man on Thu, 11 October 2012, 11:54:31
I'd love to put my name down for one, only thing holding me back is the proposed smaller right shift and it not being the normal 2.75 width..
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 11 October 2012, 12:29:20
I'd love to put my name down for one, only thing holding me back is the proposed smaller right shift and it not being the normal 2.75 width..
The smaller right shift is just an option. The other option is normal 2.75 shift. It's you to decide by soldering the switch in the right place.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Thu, 11 October 2012, 12:32:58
Well if we're listing interested parties, colour me interested!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mars-bar-man on Thu, 11 October 2012, 12:37:22
I'd love to put my name down for one, only thing holding me back is the proposed smaller right shift and it not being the normal 2.75 width..
The smaller right shift is just an option. The other option is normal 2.75 shift. It's you to decide by soldering the switch in the right place.

Put me down as interested then :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mbc on Thu, 11 October 2012, 13:08:05
In for a couple
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 11 October 2012, 14:20:38
Thanks for all the interest. I hope I'll be able to deliver this project to you at a sensible price which won't make people jump off the list;)
I think I've finally figured out the mounting hole placement and other dimensions, so there's not that much left to do.
It's a shame that so much depends on the assembler and pcb fab, but the good news is there's one full-service company like 20 minutes walk from my house, so if they can do a sensible job with pcb and soldering, working with them should be easier and faster than doing it all over mail.

Do you also have the center threaded insert in your poker cases?
I noticed it's missing from some cases, and there's no hole for it in the pcb. Anyway, I made that hole in GH60, it may be useful for better support.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Thu, 11 October 2012, 15:00:48
Thanks for all the interest. I hope I'll be able to deliver this project to you at a sensible price which won't make people jump off the list;)
I think I've finally figured out the mounting hole placement and other dimensions, so there's not that much left to do.
It's a shame that so much depends on the assembler and pcb fab, but the good news is there's one full-service company like 20 minutes walk from my house, so if they can do a sensible job with pcb and soldering, working with them should be easier and faster than doing it all over mail.

Do you also have the center threaded insert in your poker cases?
I noticed it's missing from some cases, and there's no hole for it in the pcb. Anyway, I made that hole in GH60, it may be useful for better support.

First off, thank you so much for all your hard work to pull this project together and keep it organized, komar!  The 'center threaded insert' is standard on the Pure, added for extra support, but not on the Poker (though it is an easy upgrade to drill a hole in the PCB).  I know some members have done this already, and I'll probably try it at some point.  No harm in adding it - it's easy to add an insert to a stock Poker case, too.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 11 October 2012, 15:04:46
Looking forward to some pricing estimate. Need to know if I can afford more than 1 or not. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Thu, 11 October 2012, 15:05:55
Looking forward to some pricing estimate. Need to know if I can afford more than 1 or not. :)

Same here, I know I want a model m layout, but I might want a standard poker layout too. That way I can sell my poker, get this, and program my own layers ^__^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Razer1987 on Thu, 11 October 2012, 18:35:34
I need to ask something stupid...

To have a complete Keyboard with this pcb, i need a case (easy to get aluminium group buy or an original one), switches and keycaps (easy to buy).
But what about keys that need stabilizers?

If i don't want to use a plate to mount the switches on, i cannot use that: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/cherry-mx-plate-mounted-stabilizer-clips-2pcs.html
so how to solve the problem? extra switches under the keys?

thank you
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: ZcHuer on Thu, 11 October 2012, 20:22:22
Would you please put me in the list? Would be really interested in a GH customized KB. =)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 12 October 2012, 00:11:47
I'd like two, please.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Fri, 12 October 2012, 01:05:27
Okay I'm definitely interested in the IDEA, but until we have a price estimate I wouldn't add my name to the list.

Really want a 60% board though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: danielucf on Fri, 12 October 2012, 12:56:27
Add me to the interested list, still curious on price but can plan for it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 12 October 2012, 13:08:24
But what about keys that need stabilizers?

You don't want extra switches, that's extra force and at least on the space bar doesn't help at all.  You either hunt up what you're in need of or hope for another one of these (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35297.0).  Of course the PCB needs to support PCB mount stabs, I don't recall the PCB design off my head.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 12 October 2012, 13:10:01
Can we order cherry stabilizers from anywhere? I know you can get costar stabilizers from WASD, but I have no idea where to get cherry stabilizers
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Fri, 12 October 2012, 13:29:42
Mouser.com might carry them.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fruktstund on Fri, 12 October 2012, 13:31:36
Yeah, I was just about to say Mouser. I think I've seen someone write that Mouser has them, but I can't seem to find them myself. I might just be bad at looking though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Fri, 12 October 2012, 13:35:13
http://www.mouser.com/cherrycorp/
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 12 October 2012, 13:39:06
Mouser's are all 2x plate mount.

OnlineComponents (http://www.onlinecomponents.com/cherry-electrical_g990742.html?p=11075025) carries the 2x PCB mount.


Then you need to figure out what to do about the space bar.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 12 October 2012, 14:13:36
Mouser's are all 2x plate mount.

OnlineComponents (http://www.onlinecomponents.com/cherry-electrical_g990742.html?p=11075025) carries the 2x PCB mount.


Then you need to figure out what to do about the space bar.

use the 2x parts and have someone make a new wire like was done for the phantoms
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 12 October 2012, 14:31:40
Just buy Cheap G80 from ebay or someplace. Get switches and stabilzers in one go, depend on switch type wanted can be easy, if lucky you can take care of all your keycaps too.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: slueth on Fri, 12 October 2012, 16:18:09
interested
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Broadmonkey on Fri, 12 October 2012, 17:50:14
Interested, if the price is not too high and we get some distribution going on in EU.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Sat, 13 October 2012, 18:39:08
Where did jdcarpe go! He's the one that originally posted this idea (at least this thread, I'm not trying to say he was or wasn't the first person to think of it idk lol) and really got things rolling here.

It looks like there's another ~20 people that are interested in this and I think we could get a lot more if the first post was updated with the new information we have finalized.

The more momentum we have on this, the better it is I think. And I know more people involved brings the prices down for everyone as well :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MarkPharaoh on Sat, 13 October 2012, 18:51:31
I want sexy keyboard!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Sat, 13 October 2012, 19:02:52
I think we're still waiting on komar to finish the pcb options first.             
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 13 October 2012, 19:10:35
Okay, neeb, I updated the first post. :D

I think we will get at least 100 orders, if not more.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 13 October 2012, 19:12:09
It needs to be moved into the groupbuy subforum too. Get this party started. I don't want to see it take months and months, I want a better 60% like nao!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Sat, 13 October 2012, 19:15:18
It needs to be moved into the groupbuy subforum too. Get this party started. I don't want to see it take months and months, I want a better 60% like nao!

Yes.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Sat, 13 October 2012, 19:25:18
Okay, neeb, I updated the first post. :D

I think we will get at least 100 orders, if not more.

w00t! Awesome! Welcome back, man :D!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 13 October 2012, 23:20:39
When there is something to buy then start a new thread... pushing a 13 page discussion into GBs and converting it to a GB is just silly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Sat, 13 October 2012, 23:36:16
My body is ready. Let's do this.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: poopmat on Sun, 14 October 2012, 00:13:21
might as well throw my hat in the ring
ill go for one
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sun, 14 October 2012, 00:20:52
My body is ready. Let's do this.
(http://i.imgur.com/fc5TW.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: huttala on Sun, 14 October 2012, 00:34:25
I'll take one as well.

Will it be possible to use a normal right shift instead of the shorter one? I want it as normal as possible so I can use it with normal key caps.

I'm still in for one either way.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk.

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Sun, 14 October 2012, 00:36:32
I'll take one as well.

Will it be possible to use a normal right shift instead of the shorter one? I want it as normal as possible so I can use it with normal key caps.

I'm still in for one either way.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk.



Yeah, you can use a normal right shift :D That may not be clear in the first post but it was asked and answered toward the end of this thread:

I'd love to put my name down for one, only thing holding me back is the proposed smaller right shift and it not being the normal 2.75 width..
The smaller right shift is just an option. The other option is normal 2.75 shift. It's you to decide by soldering the switch in the right place.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jcrouse on Sun, 14 October 2012, 00:52:59
I'm in
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sun, 14 October 2012, 00:54:48
Anyone have pictures of nice ISO 60% boards, if they exist?  Considering getting this in my first ISO layout...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sun, 14 October 2012, 00:55:19
You can also add me to the front list, and if price is out of my budget then I'll back out.  Thanks
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Sun, 14 October 2012, 00:59:18
Anyone have pictures of nice ISO 60% boards, if they exist?  Considering getting this in my first ISO layout...

(http://imageshack.us/a/img694/2397/funnywaffleskeyboardsha.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sun, 14 October 2012, 01:00:54
Don't think it would take long to shine those keys...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sun, 14 October 2012, 01:01:56
(http://i.imgur.com/MAKoE.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mistakemistake on Sun, 14 October 2012, 01:29:21
in for sure!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sun, 14 October 2012, 01:32:32
Anyone have pictures of nice ISO 60% boards, if they exist?  Considering getting this in my first ISO layout...

There are none. That is why this one is so great.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Sun, 14 October 2012, 01:33:21
Anyone have pictures of nice ISO 60% boards, if they exist?  Considering getting this in my first ISO layout...

Looks like they don't exist (yet ;D)


There's a thread for that...It's called the KS Mini. :P

Doesn't exist in ISO. There is no small ISO board at all unfortunately, so these things are our only hope.


Ok, well as long as it is small and ISO, it will still be the first ever to be made.

I am in for one if that wasn't obvious by now.


... Like you said, it will be the very first (that I know of, anyway) 60% board with ISO layout.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sun, 14 October 2012, 01:39:14
There are none. That is why this one is so great.
(http://i.imgur.com/hKXEH.gif)
I'm in.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: huttala on Sun, 14 October 2012, 02:15:25
I'll take one as well.

Will it be possible to use a normal right shift instead of the shorter one? I want it as normal as possible so I can use it with normal key caps.

I'm still in for one either way.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk.



Yeah, you can use a normal right shift :D That may not be clear in the first post but it was asked and answered toward the end of this thread:

I'd love to put my name down for one, only thing holding me back is the proposed smaller right shift and it not being the normal 2.75 width..
The smaller right shift is just an option. The other option is normal 2.75 shift. It's you to decide by soldering the switch in the right place.

Normal right shift and iso, ehrmagherd I'm in!!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Sun, 14 October 2012, 08:15:59
Hmmm.  Could make a board with green switches/led, use CCnG caps, get a green cable and paint a case green/buy a green aluminum one?

In here, too.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acanthophis on Sun, 14 October 2012, 08:32:17
Interested for a long time now, might as well state it here.

I just hope I will have money when the GB is coming up.
Also, if it saves shipping, I would propose a distributor in Europe for all the folks over there.

(now going to advertise this project in Germany :D )
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Sun, 14 October 2012, 08:34:19
Hmmm.  Could make a board with green switches/led, use CCnG caps, get a green cable and paint a case green/buy a green aluminum one?

In here, too.

Hmm sounds like my poker with ghetto greens, CCnG, green cable and green aluminum case. Only difference is no LEDs!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Sun, 14 October 2012, 08:37:10
Interested for a long time now, might as well state it here.

I just hope I will have money when the GB is coming up.
Also, if it saves shipping, I would propose a distributor in Europe for all the folks over there.

(now going to advertise this project in Germany :D )
Thanks for reminding me to get in 7bit's switch buy!

Hmmm.  Could make a board with green switches/led, use CCnG caps, get a green cable and paint a case green/buy a green aluminum one?

In here, too.

Hmm sounds like my poker with ghetto greens, CCnG, green cable and green aluminum case. Only difference is no LEDs!

If this happens, my pure(blue switches/leds) will get CCnB and I'll keep the blue aluminum case/blue cable I have.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 14 October 2012, 09:02:22


Also, if it saves shipping, I would propose a distributor in Europe for all the folks over there.
(now going to advertise this project in Germany )


It looks like I will take care of the distribution, so Europe is not a problem.
America either, shipping is rather cheap, if you don't want tracking.


Sorry for the delays again, I had some stuff to do.
I don't want to promise another term of making the prototype. I'll try as soon as I can.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rindorbrot on Sun, 14 October 2012, 11:36:42
I guess i am interested, too :D
I was dreaming of an ISO Poker just this morning...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Sun, 14 October 2012, 11:49:06
I guess i am interested, too :D
I was dreaming of an ISO Poker just this morning...

I am sure it wouldn't take much to modify a poker PCB to and ISO. I guess you would need to be able to program the ROM, or add a teensy controller, though. Actually yeah, it would be a lot of work :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: ter_ on Sun, 14 October 2012, 15:32:59
I'm in.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sun, 14 October 2012, 17:42:08


Also, if it saves shipping, I would propose a distributor in Europe for all the folks over there.
(now going to advertise this project in Germany )


It looks like I will take care of the distribution, so Europe is not a problem.
America either, shipping is rather cheap, if you don't want tracking.


Sorry for the delays again, I had some stuff to do.
I don't want to promise another term of making the prototype. I'll try as soon as I can.

I could do US distributing since I'll be handling the plates (as far as I know).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acanthophis on Sun, 14 October 2012, 17:49:11
I am sure it wouldn't take much to modify a poker PCB to and ISO. I guess you would need to be able to program the ROM, or add a teensy controller, though. Actually yeah, it would be a lot of work :p
Installing a new controller and reprogramming it is the easiest part.
I read an ANSI to ISO Mod for a PCB mounted at DT/KBD.
You have to drill for the extra switch, and I assure you, this is one hell of a job. I wouldn't attempt it, not even in my dreams.
And I also think this Phantom Mini will be cheaper, too :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 15 October 2012, 01:35:37
I could do US distributing since I'll be handling the plates (as far as I know).

Great, if this saves saves shipping, why not.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JonDBurnett on Mon, 15 October 2012, 02:22:37
quick question, and im sorry in advance if this has been asked and answered before, but i would really like to save myself an hour of reading.

Will the PCB  come with the teensy installed? and as far as i am aware, the plate mount we are going to use DOES allow for switch swapping WITHOUT desoldering, right?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 15 October 2012, 05:45:11
You'll probably have to solder the daughterboard that has the controller on it, just like the custom phantom. Yes, the plate will allow you to change the spring and stems without desoldering the whole switch.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 15 October 2012, 05:53:14
quick question, and im sorry in advance if this has been asked and answered before, but i would really like to save myself an hour of reading.

Will the PCB  come with the teensy installed? and as far as i am aware, the plate mount we are going to use DOES allow for switch swapping WITHOUT desoldering, right?


The PCB has an integrated teensy-compatible controller.
As for the plates, they're not designed yet as far as I know.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 15 October 2012, 05:56:33
Ah so no daughterboard and the SMD soldering will be done at the factory? Plates aren't designed yet, but it should have the same design as phantom. A normal stock plate design for a custom KB would just be foolish.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 15 October 2012, 06:51:27
Correct. I tried to explain as much in the updated OP, but maybe I wasn't clear enough. The PCB will be produced with the electronics, to include the ATmega32u4 controller chip and any diodes, already installed by the fabrication house. The only soldering required will be when you mount your own switches in the board.

Any plate design we choose will incorporate the cutouts on the sides for removal of the switch housing cover without desoldering from the PCB.

I think we will be selling PCB and plate as separate units, so you could purchase only one or the other, or different combinations of them.

We won't be selling switches, cases, stabilizers, LEDs, keycaps, or anything else. You will have to source those yourself, if you don't already have them.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: ZcHuer on Mon, 15 October 2012, 07:07:26
Correct. I tried to explain as much in the updated OP, but maybe I wasn't clear enough. The PCB will be produced with the electronics, to include the ATmega32u4 controller chip and any diodes, already installed by the fabrication house. The only soldering required will be when you mount your own switches in the board.

Any plate design we choose will incorporate the cutouts on the sides for removal of the switch housing cover without desoldering from the PCB.

I think we will be selling PCB and plate as separate units, so you could purchase only one or the other, or different combinations of them.

We won't be selling switches, cases, stabilizers, LEDs, keycaps, or anything else. You will have to source those yourself, if you don't already have them.

Thanks ;D, Still trying my best to be in the interested list~~~
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Hzza on Mon, 15 October 2012, 07:11:08
I'm not sure if this (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg653479#msg653479) diagram is sitll relevant (or the one further down that page) but they both show PCB mounting pins for the switches so I want to double check; this is going to take both PCB and plate mounted switches/stabs, right?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 15 October 2012, 07:15:52
I'm not sure if this (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg653479#msg653479) diagram is sitll relevant (or the one further down that page) but they both show PCB mounting pins for the switches so I want to double check; this is going to take both PCB and plate mounted switches/stabs, right?

Yes
Correct. I tried to explain as much in the updated OP, but maybe I wasn't clear enough. The PCB will be produced with the electronics, to include the ATmega32u4 controller chip and any diodes, already installed by the fabrication house. The only soldering required will be when you mount your own switches in the board.

Any plate design we choose will incorporate the cutouts on the sides for removal of the switch housing cover without desoldering from the PCB.

I think we will be selling PCB and plate as separate units, so you could purchase only one or the other, or different combinations of them.

We won't be selling switches, cases, stabilizers, LEDs, keycaps, or anything else. You will have to source those yourself, if you don't already have them.
Actually, maybe switches and stabilizers wouldn't be a bad idea. There maybe some who don't want to solder, and I can handle it. That will depend on how many people are interested in getting it presoldered with switches.
Also, stabilizers are hard to get, except from donor boards. Maybe a group buy would be a good idea (even a separate one).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Hzza on Mon, 15 October 2012, 07:25:50
Thanks for confirming, might double my order in that case ;).

Switches can come from 7bits GB but plate mounted Cherry stabs are pretty hard to get hold of so a GB for those might be an idea. Costar stabs can be had from WASD and PCB mounted Cherry stabs can be had from any cheapy Cherry donar boards (I've probably amassed about 6 boards worth without even really trying) so I don't think those will be much of an issue.

Also if switches are the only things that need soldering I don't mind offering a UK based soldering service.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Mon, 15 October 2012, 10:38:00
alaricljs just ran a GB for them, I believe he got them from mouser.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Losedge on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:26:38
I'm very interested, do add me to the interested list if possible ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:31:47
Why isn't this a GB yet?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:40:45
Not done yet.  komar is doing a prototype board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 15 October 2012, 11:46:51
I think I'll make a separate thread for the GB. I can't collect money yet, because I don't know how much it'll cost to produce this kit.
I'm currently finalizing the pcb (finally), and when I have it, I'll contact the prototyping company and the assembly house. Then I may have some estimates.
So far I can tell you that the pricing from the first post is totally doable.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 15 October 2012, 12:51:46
I don't think the interest list matters anymore, as we have enough people already. But just in case, I expressed interest a couple pages back, my name was missed in the OP
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 15 October 2012, 13:36:10
I am also willing to build boards for those who dont want to or cant build it themselves.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 15 October 2012, 13:38:25
I wouldn't mind soldering some switches (I can't do surface mount stuff), but I'm not looking to do a ton of them
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Mon, 15 October 2012, 13:55:11
May be saving my Clears for this, instead of swapping them onto my Filco.  Or I've got a donor board ready to have the Blacks desoldered.  Haven't decided yet. 

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 15 October 2012, 16:17:11
Quick question: when the right shift is 1.75u instead of 2.75u, it doesn't need a stabilizer, right?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 15 October 2012, 16:18:05
Quick question: when the right shift is 1.75u instead of 2.75u, it doesn't need a stabilizer, right?
correct
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Chicken Chaser on Tue, 16 October 2012, 00:59:42
Interested! I would love a small form factor KB... and probably shell out for a WASD V2 later this year. Gonna need to sell my old boards soon to save my wallet!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 16 October 2012, 08:44:56
Ok, so the PCB is nearly done now.
I decided to recess the USB connector a bit, because I didn't want to copy the poker's protruding part of pcb. It's about 0.8mm more towards the inside of the case compared to the poker, so it should be fine.

A little teaser for those of you waiting and waiting;)
[attach=1]
The image presents the bottom layer with the top layer just slightly visible and the bottom silkscreen. The view is from the top of the board, so labels are mirrored.
The front side of the board will have no silkscreen for aesthetic purposes.
This is also one of the last moments to find bugs and inform me about them;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Hzza on Tue, 16 October 2012, 08:53:18
Bardzo ładne.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jspark on Tue, 16 October 2012, 09:27:27
I'm very interested!!!! OMG, it is one of my dream boards.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 16 October 2012, 09:36:43
Bardzo ładne.
Dziękuję;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Hzza on Tue, 16 October 2012, 09:40:55
My spoken Polish is much better then my written so I wasn't sure if that came out ok; I'm waiting for my daughter to start Polish school so she can teach me properly :D.

Anyway, on topic, sick board, can't wait for prototypes etc.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Tue, 16 October 2012, 10:03:12
Looks excellent so far...can't wait!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 16 October 2012, 10:04:10
FYI, if your name didn't make it into the interest list in the OP, don't feel bad. I have a lot going on right now, and wading through this thread to update the interest list is not high on the priority list.

It doesn't really matter, anyway, since we definitely have enough interest to proceed with the group buy. We will open a thread in the Group Buy subforum once we have a prototype tested and ready to go with the full orders. This thread was just to get things moving, so that we could gauge what everyone wanted, and make this happen.

I would like to thank everyone for their interest and support. Hopefully, this will be a huge success, and people will get the keyboard they have been hoping for, e.g. first ever ISO-layout 60% keyboard.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Tue, 16 October 2012, 11:03:15
FYI, if your name didn't make it into the interest list in the OP, don't feel bad. I have a lot going on right now, and wading through this thread to update the interest list is not high on the priority list.

It doesn't really matter, anyway, since we definitely have enough interest to proceed with the group buy. We will open a thread in the Group Buy subforum once we have a prototype tested and ready to go with the full orders. This thread was just to get things moving, so that we could gauge what everyone wanted, and make this happen.

I would like to thank everyone for their interest and support. Hopefully, this will be a huge success, and people will get the keyboard they have been hoping for, e.g. first ever ISO-layout 60% keyboard.

(http://i.imgur.com/CeI7n.gif)
ISO-layout 60% OMG
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acanthophis on Tue, 16 October 2012, 12:19:44
We will open a thread in the Group Buy subforum once we have a prototype tested and ready to go with the full orders.
I hope this takes at least a month or I am forced to sell stuff to get money for this :/
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: oneproduct on Tue, 16 October 2012, 12:36:46
I'm interested. Just want something programmable so I can have my Colemak layout on the go without any fuss. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 16 October 2012, 12:39:40
I hope this takes at least a month or I am forced to sell stuff to get money for this :/

komar007 has to get a prototype PCB made, The_Beast will get a prototype plate made, and we have to test everything to make sure there are no issues before we can even start the group buy. So yeah, looking at another month probably, at the least, before we start taking orders for anything.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 16 October 2012, 12:40:35
I'm interested. Just want something programmable so I can have my Colemak layout on the go without any fuss. :)

In a oneproduct aluminum case, naturally. :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: metalliqaz on Tue, 16 October 2012, 12:51:52
Will there be a run of cases to go with these boards?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 16 October 2012, 13:17:55
Will there be a run of cases to go with these boards?

Just get a OEM poker case, oneproduct, treble or imsto case. They should all work with this
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Cindori on Tue, 16 October 2012, 14:11:44
Beast, isnt your plate for this going to be compatible for the pure aswell?

(http://i.imgur.com/nEYo6.png)
PCB design from OP

(http://piclair.com/data/eg76d.jpg)
KBT Pure
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 16 October 2012, 14:14:04
Beast, isnt your plate for this going to be compatible for the pure aswell?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/nEYo6.png)


Show Image
(http://piclair.com/data/eg76d.jpg)


FYI the first pic wouldn't work with a pure since the pure has 4 1.25 mods on the left. That pic as only 3 mods on the left

Nope, the one I'm running currently is just for the poker. You could modify it to fit the pure, but it's not designed for the pure
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 16 October 2012, 14:44:06
Will there be a run of cases to go with these boards?

Just get a OEM poker case, oneproduct, treble or imsto case. They should all work with this

Easier said that done. imsto only runs the GB at certain times and in rounds. The last round is over, and we're not even sure if he'll do additional rounds in the future. treble is still MIA, not sure when his CNC machines will be up running again. And lastly, to use an OEM poker/pure case, we're expected to spend $100+ for the whole keyboard just for the case?

Maybe I can design one for CNC out of aluminum, thick and with brass plates to add even more weight to it. Something like this:


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/pokercase1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/pokercase1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/pokercase2.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/pokercase2.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Tue, 16 October 2012, 15:41:32
That's a handsome case.  In red would be perfect for a red alert set.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Cindori on Tue, 16 October 2012, 15:47:15
Beast, isnt your plate for this going to be compatible for the pure aswell?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/nEYo6.png)


Show Image
(http://piclair.com/data/eg76d.jpg)


FYI the first pic wouldn't work with a pure since the pure has 4 1.25 mods on the left. That pic as only 3 mods on the left

Nope, the one I'm running currently is just for the poker. You could modify it to fit the pure, but it's not designed for the pure

NOt sure you understood me.

You are going to make a plate for this GH60 board, yes?

The GH60 schematic is the one in my post.

Beneath it is a KBT Pure.

THey are the same?

SO this plate of yours will fit not only GH60, but also Pure?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Tue, 16 October 2012, 15:49:09
No, the plate will not fit a pure without modification, it is designed for the poker which has a different switch layout. And as far as I'm aware, there isn't any design plans for a plate for the baby phantom.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Tue, 16 October 2012, 15:57:53
Show Image
Will there be a run of cases to go with these boards?

Just get a OEM poker case, oneproduct, treble or imsto case. They should all work with this

Easier said that done. imsto only runs the GB at certain times and in rounds. The last round is over, and we're not even sure if he'll do additional rounds in the future. treble is still MIA, not sure when his CNC machines will be up running again. And lastly, to use an OEM poker/pure case, we're expected to spend $100+ for the whole keyboard just for the case?

Maybe I can design one for CNC out of aluminum, thick and with brass plates to add even more weight to it. Something like this:


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/pokercase1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/pokercase1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/pokercase2.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/pokercase2.jpg)

From treble's thread, he's saying that they hope to be back going by November.  I doubt this will be completed by then so why add another thing to the process right now?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: metalliqaz on Tue, 16 October 2012, 15:59:13
Honestly I don't see the point of a metal case for a plateless keyboard...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 16 October 2012, 17:03:41
Beast, isnt your plate for this going to be compatible for the pure aswell?
snip

FYI the first pic wouldn't work with a pure since the pure has 4 1.25 mods on the left. That pic as only 3 mods on the left

Nope, the one I'm running currently is just for the poker. You could modify it to fit the pure, but it's not designed for the pure

NOt sure you understood me.

You are going to make a plate for this GH60 board, yes?

The GH60 schematic is the one in my post.

Beneath it is a KBT Pure.

THey are the same?

SO this plate of yours will fit not only GH60, but also Pure?

As far as I know, I'm running a GB for the plates for the GH60

I see both of those pictures. The plate will NOT fit a pure, look at the bottom mods. There are 4 1.25 mods on the pure, there are only 3 on that plate so it won't work.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 16 October 2012, 17:33:24
There is going to be a plate in the GH60 its already bee talked about, actuallly there will probably have to be a few different ones to cater to the different layouts. I vote for a metal case for this thing, I wasnt able to get one for my Phantom because of the 7bit layout (not that im not happy with my phantom, i am its just that I would be happier if I had a metal case ;) )
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: metalliqaz on Tue, 16 October 2012, 18:00:00
Oh, cool.  Guess I misunderstood.
/me goes back to lurking
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 16 October 2012, 19:03:19
O and a note for me the heavier the better for the case I like me stuff to fell SOLID!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 16 October 2012, 19:04:35
Maybe design a case using plates and have the bottom few layers be brass
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 16 October 2012, 20:31:24
If someone wants to step up and design a new Poker/Pure/GH60 aluminum case, feel free. You don't even have to wait for this GB to do it. If you want to run the GB at the same time as this one, that would also be fine, and we could link to your case GB from the GH60 GB. But I don't feel we need to include a case with this, as that is the whole point of making it compatible with the Poker/Pure cases, already extant from either those stock keyboards, or from previous/ongoing group buys.

As far as the plates go, that is really up to The_Beast how many options he wants to include. But I think we should try to keep it to about four options, like the Phantom GB was, in order to lessen confusion and to make things easier for everyone. I was thinking ANSI winkey (Poker replica), ANSI winkeyless, ISO winkey, and ISO winkeyless. Anyone wanting another layout, such as the 1.75 right shift, or the lysol bottom row, could either just do it with PCB mount switches, or they could order a specific plate on a case-by-case basis after the GB is completed.

One thing you have to keep in mind when you see group buys come up here on Geekhack, for example the imsto/oneproduct/treble318 aluminum cases, you should buy for what you think you will want in the future, not what you currently own.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 16 October 2012, 20:42:44
As far as the plates go, that is really up to The_Beast how many options he wants to include. But I think we should try to keep it to about four options, like the Phantom GB was, in order to lessen confusion and to make things easier for everyone. I was thinking ANSI winkey (Poker replica), ANSI winkeyless, ISO winkey, and ISO winkeyless. Anyone wanting another layout, such as the 1.75 right shift, or the lysol bottom row, could either just do it with PCB mount switches, or they could order a specific plate on a case-by-case basis after the GB is completed.

As long as:
1. dwg is provided to me
2. You understand that one phantom plate won't net you any discounts vs 70 poker plates

I'll run any plate. BTW I'll be pm'ing lister soon about running phantom plates. I should be able to run this GB after my poker GB wraps up and pick up the plates sometime during my Christmas break (after Dec. 23rd and almost all of January). If I runs later than that, it shouldn't be a huge issue, but that's when it's most convenient to me.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 16 October 2012, 20:46:40
As long as:
1. dwg is provided to me
2. You understand that one phantom plate won't net you any discounts vs 70 poker plates

I'll run any plate. BTW I'll be pm'ing lister soon about running phantom plates. I should be able to run this GB after my poker GB wraps up and pick up the plates sometime during my Christmas break (after Dec. 23rd and almost all of January). If I runs later than that, it shouldn't be a huge issue, but that's when it's most convenient to me.

I only mentioned Phantom as comparison for having four plate options available. Otherwise someone (not me) is going to have to design plates for every conceivable option that exists on the PCB for mounting. Sorry for the confusion. :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 16 October 2012, 20:53:50
As long as:
1. dwg is provided to me
2. You understand that one phantom plate won't net you any discounts vs 70 poker plates

I'll run any plate. BTW I'll be pm'ing lister soon about running phantom plates. I should be able to run this GB after my poker GB wraps up and pick up the plates sometime during my Christmas break (after Dec. 23rd and almost all of January). If I runs later than that, it shouldn't be a huge issue, but that's when it's most convenient to me.

I only mentioned Phantom as comparison for having four plate options available. Otherwise someone (not me) is going to have to design plates for every conceivable option that exists on the PCB for mounting. Sorry for the confusion. :P

I was planning on doing a mix bag of plate designs, including the phantom (if lister oks it) and pure (if dwg is provided). If the timing it right, I'll do the GH60 plates at the same time.


I think komar said that plate dwg shouldn't take more than 5 minutes because he has the PCB designed/drawn and it would be easy for him to make plated dwgs from that. So it's really up to komar on what plates he wants to draw. Like I said I'll run ANYTHING as long as a dwg is provided (I already had the guy cut a tool to remove the tops to switches ^__^)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:03:05
How much for that switch top remover? I need one!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 16 October 2012, 21:04:54
How much for that switch top remover? I need one!

IDK yet, I don't think it will be too much. I was going to buy a couple while I'm doing the poker plates. The one I'll be getting in a few days is just a test to see if it works or if it needs any changes
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mbc on Wed, 17 October 2012, 04:22:46
What about the price? 100 USD is way too much for the volume we are looking at.
Plate is less than 20
PCB is less than 20
Controller is less than 20
And the other items are pennies
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 17 October 2012, 04:29:33
The pricing is not available yet. I'm on the point of contacting assembly and pcb companies.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Appeac on Wed, 17 October 2012, 16:44:45
Has anyone ever considered two 3x keys rather than a 6x spacebar? I only ever hit space with one thumb, and the other thumb could be used for something more useful than sitting there doing nothing.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 17 October 2012, 16:46:47
I had that idea a while ago, before phantom even finished, but the problem was that you can't get that custom spacebar. You can let SP, but it'll cost too much. No other standard cap will be a perfect size for 2 space bars.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 17 October 2012, 16:49:40
Interesting idea there...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 17 October 2012, 16:56:12
I want mine to be 2.25/1.75/2.25, 3 is better than 2 ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 17 October 2012, 17:43:42
That's doable, but you're ok with sharp corners for your thumb?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jessecoleman on Wed, 17 October 2012, 18:22:05
I know there was talk about changing the pcb so that the backspace key was split in two, a la hhkb. That way there could be a dedicated delete and/or escape key. But your prototype doesn't have that option. I know the object is to offer as many layouts as possible but I also know that it would mean even more plate configurations. I for one would be interested in this idea and would like to see it implemented. Other than that, this project looks awesome!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 17 October 2012, 22:58:33
The problem with adding some things like 2 1x keys in the backspace spot, or 2.25-1.75-2.25 for spacebar, is that you then run into problems with holes for the switch mounts and stabilizers.

The layout that komar007 has done (thanks so much, by the way!) is practically complete and ready to send to the fabrication house for prototyping, and will satisfy 98% of what everyone wants, I believe. Remember, you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Appeac on Wed, 17 October 2012, 23:08:17
The problem with adding some things like 2 1x keys in the backspace spot, or 2.25-1.75-2.25 for spacebar, is that you then run into problems with holes for the switch mounts and stabilizers.

The layout that komar007 has done (thanks so much, by the way!) is practically complete and ready to send to the fabrication house for prototyping, and will satisfy 98% of what everyone wants, I believe. Remember, you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. :P

Indeeeed. I'll just have to go to town with my wires and dremel and make something happen.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jessecoleman on Thu, 18 October 2012, 00:25:11
That's a good point, didn't think of that. And appeac: yes, modifying the pcb will get the job done. Looking forward to seeing this project progress.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Robstero on Thu, 18 October 2012, 17:45:19
Super interested, count me in. This exactly the sort of thing (small ISO, programmable) I've been thinking about trying to cobble together with hacksaws and Araldite :)

Found this by chance over on DT, glad I didn't miss it. I'll maybe flag this up over there so no-one misses this? There might be a few other stragglers interested.

Excellent work - much appreciated.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kmiller8 on Thu, 18 October 2012, 19:02:53
Put me down as interested in one as well. I all for the idea of fully manufacturing my very own mini keyboard, I love soldering!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Anynoupy on Fri, 19 October 2012, 15:05:57
In for one as well. That would be a great thing for me, in order to get a fully "handmade" board with Ergo Clears and Winkeyless :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 19 October 2012, 15:53:27
Quote from: Anynoupy
HHKB Pro 2 Black lab. iNcoming.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Black_Labrador_Retriever_portrait.jpg)

This ?? ?? ??
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Anynoupy on Fri, 19 October 2012, 16:16:18
Oh yeah, definitely, that's it ! :D

I meant Black "label", but I didn't really know if it had any sense. Just to say the keys will be black and dyed.
I guess I'll just stick with "Black" ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: phetto on Fri, 19 October 2012, 17:47:49
When is this interest check going to be reality? :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tranquilite on Fri, 19 October 2012, 20:03:15
When is this interest check going to be reality? :D
If this ends up being anything like the original Phantom GB, then I suggest grabbing a 2013 calendar, spreading all of the pages on ground, blindfolding yourself, turning around three times, and then going and finding some other project to follow.

It'll happen when it happens.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Fri, 19 October 2012, 21:27:45
Interested!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Sat, 20 October 2012, 01:43:40
jdcarpe or komar, can someone fill me in on what needs to be done with this project? i'll see what i can do to get things moving on my end
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 20 October 2012, 01:48:43
I can also help possibly this seems to be close the the revised dox but smd and minus the leds.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 20 October 2012, 03:23:15
komar is about to send the PCB files to the fab to have a prototype made for testing. I think The_Beast can help us out with a prototype plate.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 20 October 2012, 03:51:31
Pretty much komar took care of all the really technical stuff in designing the PCB. It's not a requirement but might be a good idea to also source switches and stabilizers to include with the package. Maybe figure out case options as well. I'm trying to put in time to learn CAD software to design a metal case, but that will probably be separate because of cost and not knowing if I'm even competent enough to do it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acanthophis on Sat, 20 October 2012, 05:04:27
I already have an imsto case coming for my Poker which I now will use for the GH60.
I don't think I can afford a second one :D

But would be a great oppurtunity for other folks to get an alu case. Go for it, Mr. Dragon!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fruktstund on Sat, 20 October 2012, 05:08:45
Talking about cases, I'm seriously thinking of going with a cardboard case, just for the kicks.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: leesofi on Sat, 20 October 2012, 14:33:51
Interested :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 22 October 2012, 13:34:06
komar is about to send the PCB files to the fab to have a prototype made for testing. I think The_Beast can help us out with a prototype plate.

Once I get done with the poker GB, I'd be more than willing to run the plates or even cases if someone designs one (I'm working on one kind of)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 15:13:19
komar is about to send the PCB files to the fab to have a prototype made for testing. I think The_Beast can help us out with a prototype plate.

Once I get done with the poker GB, I'd be more than willing to run the plates or even cases if someone designs one (I'm working on one kind of)
If its stainless steel im in!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 22 October 2012, 15:15:11
I have everything I need but the pcb... gimme.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 15:17:59
I was going to order the prototypes today, but only 2 of 3 people who wanted them have written back to me.
So I'm going to order tommorrow, I'll take 4 anyway.

If anyone else wants a no-guarantee prototype, let me know asap.
It's a bit over $30 + $5 for usb connector, diodes and crystal, because they may be hard to get. The rest of components are easily available.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kmiller8 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 15:26:15
I was going to order the prototypes today, but only 2 of 3 people who wanted them have written back to me.
So I'm going to order tommorrow, I'll take 4 anyway.

If anyone else wants a no-guarantee prototype, let me know asap.
It's a bit over $30 + $5 for usb connector, diodes and crystal, because they may be hard to get. The rest of components are easily available.

mememe! PM'd!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 15:28:10
I was going to order the prototypes today, but only 2 of 3 people who wanted them have written back to me.
So I'm going to order tommorrow, I'll take 4 anyway.

If anyone else wants a no-guarantee prototype, let me know asap.
It's a bit over $30 + $5 for usb connector, diodes and crystal, because they may be hard to get. The rest of components are easily available.
PM sent!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 15:37:45
Wow, things are changing fast.
Here's the list:
komar007
jdcarpe
kmiller8
TheProfosist
WhiteFireDragon
lysol

To all of you reading this thread from time to time: this is just a prototype PCB, which comes with no guarantee that it will even work or fit the case. You have been warned.
The actual group buy will take place no sooner than in a month.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 15:41:25
sounds good im hoping it works properly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:06:38
I'll pass on the prototype so I can buy more of the final boards ^___^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:09:50
We need a good testing pool to make sure any issues are spotted with different layouts and configuration. Looks like we hopefully have that. I plan to do my proposed layout. Can't wait.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:12:03
Won't hurt my feelings if it doesn't work. I love being a beta-tester.

Since you mentioned that all the SMD stuff will be soldered on at the factory, does this also apply for these prototypes? I'm assuming by "including usb connector, diodes and crystal", we don't need to source the ATmega32u4 controller chip?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:14:54

We need a good testing pool to make sure any issues are spotted with different layouts and configuration. Looks like we hopefully have that. I plan to do my proposed layout. Can't wait.
Great. That was the point of this prototype.
One more person would make my declared $30 tag plausible. I was a bit too optimistic at first, didn't take shipping into account;)
Won't hurt my feelings if it doesn't work. I love being a beta-tester.

Since you mentioned that all the SMD stuff will be soldered on at the factory, does this also apply for these prototypes? I'm assuming by "including usb connector, diodes and crystal", we don't need to source the ATmega32u4 controller chip?
No, there's no way anyone will run a production of 7 devices;)
But I can send you all the parts instead of some if you want to.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:20:06
Hmn... sh!t. No way I can solder smd myself. I am not that good at the tiny stuff, will surely ruin it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:25:22
Is there an ISO user among the beta testers?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:26:19

Hmn... sh!t. No way I can solder smd myself. I am not that good at the tiny stuff, will surely ruin it.
We'll see what can be done;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kmiller8 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:26:30
I certainly don't want to source the ATmega and other SMD parts, and I'll gladly pay extra to have those included with the PCB.

As for SMD soldering, bring it on!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:31:15
Thanks komar. Let me know extra cost if you will be doing parts and partial assembly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:33:09
We need a good testing pool to make sure any issues are spotted with different layouts and configuration. Looks like we hopefully have that. I plan to do my proposed layout. Can't wait.
I have a proposed layout as well anyone willing to code it up for me? or do you think the firmware for my phantom could just be edited?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:36:17

Thanks komar. Let me know extra cost if you will be doing parts and partial assembly.

I can source atmegas for $5, the remaining parts should be negligible.
Let's settle for now that I'll send you the PCB and parts.
As for soldering, I'll see how much time it'll take when I get the boards. I can do it, if it's a matter of a few boards. Not all of them:)


We need a good testing pool to make sure any issues are spotted with different layouts and configuration. Looks like we hopefully have that. I plan to do my proposed layout. Can't wait.
I have a proposed layout as well anyone willing to code it up for me? or do you think the firmware for my phantom could just be edited?
I'll make sure the beta testers will have firmware to test their layouts.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:41:38
Any one have a image with all proposed locations for keys then so that I can get cracking and coe up with template for my layout?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:46:18
All project files are on github: https://github.com/komar007/ghkb
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:50:32
Are the PCBs going to be screen printed. I was looking at the phantom boards and they have key locations and all the people who helped on the project. I think that would be an awesome idea for this PCB too if it doesn't cost too much. (komar gets lead spot for being boss)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:54:56
Won't hurt my feelings if it doesn't work. I love being a beta-tester.

Since you mentioned that all the SMD stuff will be soldered on at the factory, does this also apply for these prototypes? I'm assuming by "including usb connector, diodes and crystal", we don't need to source the ATmega32u4 controller chip?
No, there's no way anyone will run a production of 7 devices;)
But I can send you all the parts instead of some if you want to.
Yeah no problem, I was just wondering if they were going to do it at factory. I don't have a problem with doing SMD soldering though. I have a hot air rework station and solder paste for that  ;) . It'll be more convenient to include all the SMD stuff though since you'll have to build your own anways, might as well order extra for all the prototypes too.

I think you should ship all the prototypes to one person since it looks like we're all from the US. Less hassle and cheaper for you. Then it can be distributed. If no one volunteers, then I'm willing to do US distributing, and maybe solder some of them too while I'm at it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: osxoep on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:56:25
I am getting excited for the final release :D

Is there a minimum amount of people required before a certain plate will be made?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 16:57:49

Are the PCBs going to be screen printed. I was looking at the phantom boards and they have key locations and all the people who helped on the project. I think that would be an awesome idea for this PCB too if it doesn't cost too much. (komar gets lead spot for being boss)
I want to leave the top side completely empty, so that it looks nice.
On the bottom side, we can have whatever we want.


Yeah no problem, I was just wondering if they were going to do it at factory. I don't have a problem with doing SMD soldering though. I have a hot air rework station and solder paste for that  ;) . It'll be more convenient to include all the SMD stuff though since you'll have to build your own anways, might as well order extra for all the prototypes too.
Good, that's less soldering for me;)
I think you should ship all the prototypes to one person since it looks like we're all from the US. Less hassle and cheaper for you. Then it can be distributed. If no one volunteers, then I'm willing to do US distributing, and maybe solder some of them too while I'm at it.
We can do it. Though it depends on shipping rates within US. I can send them for $6 each.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:11:01
All project files are on github: https://github.com/komar007/ghkb
I think I was looking for something closer to this that I found in the main post

(http://i.imgur.com/H6fvq.png)

would you happen to be able to make one with a short right shift and short enter and  a bottom row that allows for both a win and a menu key (i think thats the blue lines). Also does theis keyboard only support a 7x spacebar?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:13:13
Having not done SMD before really (besides big SMD diodes) I dont know if im up for soldering this prototype my self as I dont have a hot air station only a Hakko 888.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:16:03
I am getting excited for the final release :D

Is there a minimum amount of people required before a certain plate will be made?
I am actually wondering if there will be a plate fore the prototype, I am guessing not so far. If the prototype works correctly though I would like to get one cut either where I got my custom Phantom plates or through The_Beast would you be up for designing one Komar?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:16:55
I think I was looking for something closer to this that I found in the main post

(http://i.imgur.com/H6fvq.png) (http://i.imgur.com/H6fvq.png)

would you happen to be able to make one with a short right shift and short enter and  a bottom row that allows for both a win and a menu key (i think thats the blue lines). Also does theis keyboard only support a 7x spacebar?

What's a short enter? vertical iso?
There's 6.25 spacebar support for standard 3x1.25, space, 4x1.25 mod and 7 for model m and lysol layout.


Having not done SMD before really (besides big SMD diodes) I dont know if im up for soldering this prototype my self as I dont have a hot air station only a Hakko 888.
If WhiteFireDragon agrees, maybe I'll solder lysol's board, and he can do yours.


I am actually wondering if there will be a plate fore the prototype, I am guessing not so far. If the prototype works correctly though I would like to get one cut either where I got my custom Phantom plates or through The_Beast would you be up for designing one Komar?


Please contact The_Beast then. He does custom plates, as far as I remember.
If there are no errors, the production plates should also fit the prototype.
I'll help whoever gets to design the plates after I have the prototypes and confirm that they're ok.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:26:08
TheProfosist, no your 1.25 enter scheme is not support on this pcb.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:30:15
I think I was looking for something closer to this that I found in the main post

(http://i.imgur.com/H6fvq.png) (http://i.imgur.com/H6fvq.png)

would you happen to be able to make one with a short right shift and short enter and  a bottom row that allows for both a win and a menu key (i think thats the blue lines). Also does theis keyboard only support a 7x spacebar?

What's a short enter? vertical iso?
There's 6.25 spacebar support for standard 3x1.25, space, 4x1.25 mod and 7 for model m and lysol layout.


Having not done SMD before really (besides big SMD diodes) I dont know if im up for soldering this prototype my self as I dont have a hot air station only a Hakko 888.
If WhiteFireDragon agrees, maybe I'll solder lysol's board, and he can do yours.


I am actually wondering if there will be a plate fore the prototype, I am guessing not so far. If the prototype works correctly though I would like to get one cut either where I got my custom Phantom plates or through The_Beast would you be up for designing one Komar?


Please contact The_Beast then. He does custom plates, as far as I remember.
If there are no errors, the production plates should also fit the prototype.
I'll help whoever gets to design the plates after I have the prototypes and confirm that they're ok.
O my bad i though you made an option to have somrthing like this enter on my phantom

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/7bitCustom4Layer1WASDTEMP2wasdtemplatecolors0.png)

since I can get a 6.25 spacebar i would like that bottom row instead as keycaps will be more compatible.


sounds good ill send him a pm about soldering up my prototype board


sure thing is he the one that makes the DXF files as well?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:45:01
Okay,
unfortunately some people jumped off, so we have six now:
komar007
jdcarpe
kmiller8
TheProfosist
WhiteFireDragon
lysol
This means the price will go up a bit.
I will wait a bit more, though, and we'll see what happens.
I wasn't going to have that many prototypes made anyway, but because the number of interested increased so much today I decided to go for better quality.
In the worst case we'll come back to a local company. Not that they do a bad job of course, but in turn they're too expensive for final production, so then I'll have to change the company.
Anyway, 2 more prototypes and we're back;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:48:42
:( Id be in for 2 if i know it was 100% working but since its a small gamble Im only in for one.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:49:46
TheProfosist, no your 1.25 enter scheme is not support on this pcb.
may i ask how its not supported the reason i ask is there is already a switch there for ansi and next to is for ISO what is causing it not to work?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:51:49
TheProfosist, no your 1.25 enter scheme is not support on this pcb.
may i ask how its not supported the reason i ask is there is already a switch there for ansi and next to is for ISO what is causing it not to work?
The switch for ISO is between rows 2 and 3. I'll see if one more switch will fit.
EDIT: it will
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:52:24
WhiteFireDragon, if you can handle soldering the SMD for all the US proto boards, that would be awesome. I think you're the only one of us with a hot air station. I know I would struggle to get it done with just a chisel tip iron. We could just have all the US proto boards and components shipped to WFD, who could solder the SMD and then distribute to us.

TheProfosist, this PCB supports all the layout options that you prefer as shown, with the one exception of the 1.25 enter.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:55:04
I don't really want to draw the plates, komar should be able to make them relatively easy since he has the the dimensions
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: leesofi on Mon, 22 October 2012, 17:55:11
GOOD WORKS GUYS:D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 18:01:06
TheProfosist, no your 1.25 enter scheme is not support on this pcb.
may i ask how its not supported the reason i ask is there is already a switch there for ansi and next to is for ISO what is causing it not to work?
The switch for ISO is between rows 2 and 3. I'll see if one more switch will fit.
EDIT: it will
If it can o wells ill just have to come up with a new layout that doesnt rely on that.

TheProfosist, this PCB supports all the layout options that you prefer as shown, with the one exception of the 1.25 enter.
:( yea must have been something special about the Phantom PCB and the DOX im working on was built to my specs so thats why it has it so no biggie ill just have to come up with a new layout which is something that I enjoy doing I thought i would just try to get my keyboards to be as close as possible layout wise to each other.

I don't really want to draw the plates, komar should be able to make them relatively easy since he has the the dimensions
Alright sounds good. If this prototype turns out to work great ill ask Komar about a plate file. That reminds me can you make plates out of anything heavier than stainless?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 22 October 2012, 18:03:01
Well, I see no problem adding that switch for 1.25 enter.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 18:07:16
Well, I see no problem adding that switch for 1.25 enter.
well is up to you if you want to add it I have already thought up and idea for arrows for the current layout that utilizes the short right shift and RWin, Menu, and RCtrl, which might be nice to try out.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 22 October 2012, 18:19:26
Will having such as switch holes where the pcb mount stabilizer should go on ansi enter make a problem?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 20:32:51
Will having such as switch holes where the pcb mount stabilizer should go on ansi enter make a problem?
i thihnk that would be a problem if you ask me but i didnt design the PCB
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 22 October 2012, 20:39:21
***snip all dat***
Alright sounds good. If this prototype turns out to work great ill ask Komar about a plate file. That reminds me can you make plates out of anything heavier than stainless?


Aluminum            2712
Brass - casting    8400 - 8700
Stainless Steel     7480 - 8000

SS is about as dense as brass. I don't think that guy does brass or if brass even comes in sheets like he would need
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 20:41:43
***snip all dat***
Alright sounds good. If this prototype turns out to work great ill ask Komar about a plate file. That reminds me can you make plates out of anything heavier than stainless?


Aluminum            2712
Brass - casting    8400 - 8700
Stainless Steel     7480 - 8000

SS is about as dense as brass. I don't think that guy does brass or if brass even comes in sheets like he would need
ok just thought i would ask I <3 SS anyways ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 22 October 2012, 20:51:50
***snip all dat***
Alright sounds good. If this prototype turns out to work great ill ask Komar about a plate file. That reminds me can you make plates out of anything heavier than stainless?


Aluminum            2712
Brass - casting    8400 - 8700
Stainless Steel     7480 - 8000

SS is about as dense as brass. I don't think that guy does brass or if brass even comes in sheets like he would need
ok just thought i would ask I <3 SS anyways ;)

I was designing a case with weights like sherries. Then when I went to change materials I saw they had nearly the same density. BTW the poker case I made was 5.25 lbs and I still had one more layer of stainless to add ^___^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 20:54:35
***snip all dat***
Alright sounds good. If this prototype turns out to work great ill ask Komar about a plate file. That reminds me can you make plates out of anything heavier than stainless?


Aluminum            2712
Brass - casting    8400 - 8700
Stainless Steel     7480 - 8000

SS is about as dense as brass. I don't think that guy does brass or if brass even comes in sheets like he would need
ok just thought i would ask I <3 SS anyways ;)

I was designing a case with weights like sherries. Then when I went to change materials I saw they hay nearly the same density. BTW the poker case I made was 5.25 lbs and I still had one more layer of stainless to add ^___^
your the best beast!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 22 October 2012, 21:10:47
***snip all dat***
Alright sounds good. If this prototype turns out to work great ill ask Komar about a plate file. That reminds me can you make plates out of anything heavier than stainless?


Aluminum            2712
Brass - casting    8400 - 8700
Stainless Steel     7480 - 8000

SS is about as dense as brass. I don't think that guy does brass or if brass even comes in sheets like he would need
ok just thought i would ask I <3 SS anyways ;)

I was designing a case with weights like sherries. Then when I went to change materials I saw they hay nearly the same density. BTW the poker case I made was 5.25 lbs and I still had one more layer of stainless to add ^___^
your the best beast!

If my guy can do 1/4" stainless...... (I'll be asking next email ;D)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 22 October 2012, 21:34:41
***snip all dat***
Alright sounds good. If this prototype turns out to work great ill ask Komar about a plate file. That reminds me can you make plates out of anything heavier than stainless?


Aluminum            2712
Brass - casting    8400 - 8700
Stainless Steel     7480 - 8000

SS is about as dense as brass. I don't think that guy does brass or if brass even comes in sheets like he would need
ok just thought i would ask I <3 SS anyways ;)

I was designing a case with weights like sherries. Then when I went to change materials I saw they hay nearly the same density. BTW the poker case I made was 5.25 lbs and I still had one more layer of stainless to add ^___^
your the best beast!

If my guy can do 1/4" stainless...... (I'll be asking next email ;D)
awesome would love to have a all SS case for the final of this board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Tue, 23 October 2012, 06:38:30
Okay,
unfortunately some people jumped off, so we have six now:

Komar007:  please add me to the prototype run.  i'm not scared of doing the smt soldering or board re-work as required.

Let me know what you need from me.

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 23 October 2012, 06:58:12
Great!
I only need your money! :D
To the people who are in for prototype pcbs: I'll pay first, and then collect money.
That's why I trust that you won't jump off the list anymore. I'll tell you when I'm paying so you know when not to jump off anymore.


EDIT:
current list:
komar007
jdcarpe
kmiller8
TheProfosist
WhiteFireDragon
lysol
__red__

I'm sorry to inform that the price of PCB went up by $3:(
I've calculated the price of the parts and it's $10.
So the current official price of the DIY prototype (PCB + smd parts) is $43.
Shipping is $8 for the whole package to one of you in the US, who will later distribute the sets.
I'm currently doing minor enhancements in the crystal layout, then I'll add the 1.25 enter support and hopefully I can order within a day or two.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 08:19:07
You seriously dont have to add the 1.25 enter support if it doesnt work or you have to force it in. Ill soon be posting my idea that i plan to use if it doesnt go through.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 23 October 2012, 08:21:39
It's really no problem. It fits without moving things around. More layouts = more users satisfied;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 08:27:07
Alright sounds good idk what ill do then as im pretty keen to to the new layout.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 08:55:18
Well here is the drawing that I threw together for a potential layout.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/scan0001.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Tue, 23 October 2012, 10:59:03
Great!
I only need your money! :D
To the people who are in for prototype pcbs: I'll pay first, and then collect money.
That's why I trust that you won't jump off the list anymore. I'll tell you when I'm paying so you know when not to jump off anymore.


EDIT:
current list:
komar007
jdcarpe
kmiller8
TheProfosist
WhiteFireDragon
lysol
__red__

I'm sorry to inform that the price of PCB went up by $3:(
I've calculated the price of the parts and it's $10.
So the current official price of the DIY prototype (PCB + smd parts) is $43.
Shipping is $8 for the whole package to one of you in the US, who will later distribute the sets.
I'm currently doing minor enhancements in the crystal layout, then I'll add the 1.25 enter support and hopefully I can order within a day or two.


So to be in on the prototype we'd have to be pretty good at soldering on a very small scale?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 10:59:48
Great!
I only need your money! :D
To the people who are in for prototype pcbs: I'll pay first, and then collect money.
That's why I trust that you won't jump off the list anymore. I'll tell you when I'm paying so you know when not to jump off anymore.


EDIT:
current list:
komar007
jdcarpe
kmiller8
TheProfosist
WhiteFireDragon
lysol
__red__

I'm sorry to inform that the price of PCB went up by $3:(
I've calculated the price of the parts and it's $10.
So the current official price of the DIY prototype (PCB + smd parts) is $43.
Shipping is $8 for the whole package to one of you in the US, who will later distribute the sets.
I'm currently doing minor enhancements in the crystal layout, then I'll add the 1.25 enter support and hopefully I can order within a day or two.


So to be in on the prototype we'd have to be pretty good at soldering on a very small scale?
or ask someone really nicely to solder yours.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 23 October 2012, 12:29:47
Add me to the prototype list, but for an ISO layout, can you cover off an ISO plate?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 12:31:26
Add me to the prototype list, but for an ISO layout, can you cover off an ISO plate?
Cover off? Also I dont think plates are being made for teh prototype ill only be getting one if the thing works perfectly I think my case for the prototype will still end up being cardboard ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 23 October 2012, 12:34:11
Fine with the cardboard case, but making sure everything fits well with the plate is worth doing.  Fine with the soldering side, just being from the other side of the water, having a compact ISO board is something we're really lacking.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 12:40:07
Fine with the cardboard case, but making sure everything fits well with the plate is worth doing.  Fine with the soldering side, just being from the other side of the water, having a compact ISO board is something we're really lacking.
well the_beast will make any dxf you throw at him so id ask komar if he can make a plate that fits your layout i would have a pic for hime kinda like i made above
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 23 October 2012, 12:42:40
Fine with the cardboard case, but making sure everything fits well with the plate is worth doing.  Fine with the soldering side, just being from the other side of the water, having a compact ISO board is something we're really lacking.
well the_beast will make any dxf you throw at him so id ask komar if he can make a plate that fits your layout i would have a pic for hime kinda like i made above

dwg is preferred since I don't have to convert the dxf to dwg when I get it (ie I have to walk to the student center to convert)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 12:44:44
Fine with the cardboard case, but making sure everything fits well with the plate is worth doing.  Fine with the soldering side, just being from the other side of the water, having a compact ISO board is something we're really lacking.
well the_beast will make any dxf you throw at him so id ask komar if he can make a plate that fits your layout i would have a pic for hime kinda like i made above

dwg is preferred since I don't have to convert the dxf to dwg when I get it (ie I have to walk to the student center to convert)
o my bad the last place i went wanted dxf i believe

also pm sent to you about another project.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 23 October 2012, 12:49:56
Hehe I am reverse from you guys. I am more concerned with does it work without the plate since I have no interest in having one if I don't have to.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 23 October 2012, 12:52:01
Your right, sorry thought someone would have done an ISO version.  Anyone have the phantom ISO plate file?

Wouldn't be too different to yours, just the Jret and short left shift.

(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/1/19/PHISO125.jpg/600px-PHISO125.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 23 October 2012, 12:53:38
Hehe I am reverse from you guys. I am more concerned with does it work without the plate since I have no interest in having one if I don't have to.

I'm surprised, so much interest in plates for pokers.  They didn't cost too much in the phantom group buy and really add a lot to the keyboard.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 23 October 2012, 13:14:24
dirge, these are definitely going to have a plate available (several layouts, actually) when we get to the group buy phase. These prototype boards are just so a few of us can test them and make sure everything works. I will be using some pcb mount brown switches I have for my prototype, so I can try some different layouts.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 13:15:47
Your right, sorry thought someone would have done an ISO version.  Anyone have the phantom ISO plate file?

Wouldn't be too different to yours, just the Jret and short left shift.

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/1/19/PHISO125.jpg/600px-PHISO125.jpg)

contact biphiany if you want Phantom Plate files

Also Komar if yo uwant to know more about designing plates talk to him as well hes done a few different ones for me.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 13:16:15
dirge, these are definitely going to have a plate available (several layouts, actually) when we get to the group buy phase. These prototype boards are just so a few of us can test them and make sure everything works. I will be using some pcb mount brown switches I have for my prototype, so I can try some different layouts.
are the pcb mount holes in the pcb?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 23 October 2012, 13:20:30
dirge, these are definitely going to have a plate available (several layouts, actually) when we get to the group buy phase. These prototype boards are just so a few of us can test them and make sure everything works. I will be using some pcb mount brown switches I have for my prototype, so I can try some different layouts.
are the pcb mount holes in the pcb?

Most definitely. Thanks to komar's beautiful design!

On a related note, anyone buying one of these proto boards should please be aware that these are not guaranteed to even function. We may get them and find that half the keys don't work or something. I don't expect that to happen, but it's the risk we testers are taking to get these made and tested. Everyone else should wait for the group buy for a finished product.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 23 October 2012, 13:26:43
Yup, part of the fun is the risk and the working out how to fix it.  Also in helping iron the problems out. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 13:41:19
dirge, these are definitely going to have a plate available (several layouts, actually) when we get to the group buy phase. These prototype boards are just so a few of us can test them and make sure everything works. I will be using some pcb mount brown switches I have for my prototype, so I can try some different layouts.
are the pcb mount holes in the pcb?

Most definitely. Thanks to komar's beautiful design!

On a related note, anyone buying one of these proto boards should please be aware that these are not guaranteed to even function. We may get them and find that half the keys don't work or something. I don't expect that to happen, but it's the risk we testers are taking to get these made and tested. Everyone else should wait for the group buy for a finished product.
yes i completely understand but if it does if i would like to outfit it as completely as possible Ill probably contact WASD for some basic caps for testinghopefully I can get them on the cheap.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 23 October 2012, 16:21:35
So we have 8 people now:
komar007
jdcarpe
kmiller8
TheProfosist
WhiteFireDragon
lysol
__red__
dirge

As for plates, I'll think about them after sending the prototype PCB for production.
I think I'll order with matte black soldermask. Should look nice.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Index on Tue, 23 October 2012, 16:26:42
hey komar im interested in this also.

To clarify im interested in testing this out. I have a istob poker case just sitting here.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 23 October 2012, 16:30:27
I don't think plates will be a problem, those are too easy to design and make. Higher priority goes into making sure all electronic components are taken care of first. Physical fitment of plates and case is useless if there are still circuitry problem or controller programming.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 23 October 2012, 17:19:12
Black pcb color is good. I would prefer white personally though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 23 October 2012, 17:20:23
Purple PCB, white text

get that naow
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 23 October 2012, 17:22:27
Ugh... only reason I am getting a plate for my Poker is to hide the ugly color. Black or white only please. If people want some other color they can paint thier plate.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Tue, 23 October 2012, 19:57:04
Come on, no green? 

I always feel like that's the color PCBs want to be.

Really, I don't care as long as it do what it do.  I'm really fired up about this, and can't wait to put a couple of these together.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Tue, 23 October 2012, 19:59:31
Purple PCB, white text

get that naow

Would lurv a purple pcb...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 23 October 2012, 20:00:51
Purple PCB, white text

get that naow

Would lurv a purple pcb...

I'd love for it to be purple but I guess it doesn't matter since it's going to be under a plate anyways
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Tue, 23 October 2012, 20:01:52
^Was just thinking about that. Considering painting plates now...oh the options!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Tue, 23 October 2012, 20:05:35
My plate will be clear acrylic so the color will be visible to me :-)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hasu on Tue, 23 October 2012, 22:54:29
Great work! I missed great progress of this project these days.

Number of this prototype PCB will be 10? If so, I guess extra still is available.
I'll take a set out of its extra if my purchase mitigates your expense of prototyping.


So we have 8 people now:
komar007
jdcarpe
kmiller8
TheProfosist
WhiteFireDragon
lysol
__red__
dirge

As for plates, I'll think about them after sending the prototype PCB for production.
I think I'll order with matte black soldermask. Should look nice.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Tue, 23 October 2012, 23:31:23
oh what the heck, i'll be a tester too if there's room. I don't know a lot, but the only way i'll actually learn is by doing.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 00:15:33
Wow, even more prototypes.
This is starting to look more like the actual group buy. What if they don't work? :D
Ok, it seems I'll have to recheck everything once again.

Great work! I missed great progress of this project these days.

Number of this prototype PCB will be 10? If so, I guess extra still is available.
I'll take a set out of its extra if my purchase mitigates your expense of prototyping.
I'll order as many as necessary

Anyway:
komar007
jdcarpe
kmiller8
TheProfosist
WhiteFireDragon
lysol
__red__
dirge
Index
hasu
kravlin
engicoder
modulor
tipo33
TheQsanity
mkawa_

There are 11 12 13 14 15 16, so I went for ENIG instead of HASL.

I know I've written this many times, but the thread is getting long and some people might loose track:
* Everyone on the list is getting a PCB (which at the current number of people ordering should be made in the same technology as the final product) and a full set of parts.
* You are required to solder all the components yourself or ask someone else.
* If you don't want the parts, write to me before paying.
* The set comes with no warranty. Although the probability that it won't work at all is rather low, the reason for prototyping is to fix errors, including the bad ones. If you're concerned about the correctness of the prototype, you can download the project and take a look, maybe you'll spot bugs before production (https://github.com/komar007/ghkb (https://github.com/komar007/ghkb)).
* You're not required to become a beta tester and report errors by buying the prototype, but it would be nice to do so.
* The cost of this prototype is $41 + shipping.
* Shipping to the US is $8-$10, to be split among US buyers. US distribution is up to you.
* Shipping to Japan should be about $11.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hasu on Wed, 24 October 2012, 01:33:47
I thought 10 was Minimum Order Quantity of this PCB prototyping, I guess 11 is enough for prototyping. My intention is that you should not pay alone for the risk too much.

I'm sure I want to share the risk of  this prospective and immature product with you!
* The set comes with no warranty. Although the probability that it won't work at all is rather low, the reason for prototyping is to fix errors, including the bad ones. If you're concerned about the correctness of the prototype, you can download the project and take a look, maybe you'll spot bugs before production (https://github.com/komar007/ghkb).

No problem. I know that Japan is furthest country from anywhere :p
Quote
* Shipping to Japan should be about $11.

And I'll be happy to work on firmware of GH64 with you guys!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: neeb on Wed, 24 October 2012, 04:53:16
Coming along nicely! I haven't posted here for a while but I've been reading it once or twice a day. Amazing work so far, everyone that's involved :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 07:24:30
There must be some deadline or this will never end...
Let's say today evening (11 pm, 24 October 2012, CEST) is the deadline to be added or removed from the list.
After that, I'll send you payment instructions.

I've just found one missing trace in the pcb, so I'll go check everything else now.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kmiller8 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 07:30:31
...
* Shipping to the US is $8-$10, to be split among US buyers. US distribution is up to you.
...

If noone else will volunteer I'll gladly handle US distribution.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 07:36:55
WhiteFireDragon has already voluneered, since he will also solder some of the kits.
But thanks for the proposition anyway;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kmiller8 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 07:41:03
WhiteFireDragon has already voluneered, since he will also solder some of the kits.
But thanks for the proposition anyway;)

Oh, I read over that. My bad.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: engicoder on Wed, 24 October 2012, 07:59:18
Just wanted to pop my head in and say that I am following this thread with great interest as well. I am interested in jumping in on the prototype, because I like to tinker and am an AVR freak. I have a hot air station, so the soldering doesn't scare me, but I was wondering about what others will do about the switches...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: engicoder on Wed, 24 October 2012, 08:00:44
Oops...I was unclear...I meant about sourcing them...I don't know what, where or how.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 24 October 2012, 08:03:49
Digikey/Mouser/Onlinecomponents.com
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 08:07:43
engicoder, should I put you on the list?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: engicoder on Wed, 24 October 2012, 08:18:26
LOL....well, thats just too obvious. I check the various sources and none seem to have browns or reds...MX1A-G1xx
Looks like blacks or blues, maybe clears.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: engicoder on Wed, 24 October 2012, 08:18:59
Yes, add me to the list please!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kmiller8 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 08:19:45
Check around the forum here and Deskthority, IIRC there is someone selling red/blues/green/greys/blacks for $.60/ea Plate mount or $.80/ea PCB mount

EDIT: http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html <- claims to have stock
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 08:23:37
LOL....well, thats just too obvious. I check the various sources and none seem to have browns or reds...MX1A-G1xx
Looks like blacks or blues, maybe clears.
7bit still has some leftovers from the last group buy: http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760-360.html (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760-360.html)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 24 October 2012, 09:33:52
You can always get a refurb CM Storm QuickFire Rapid for $50 and harvest the 87 blue switches from it. Or look on eBay for other used MX switch boards, such as the Compaq MX 11800, etc. and harvest switches from them.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 24 October 2012, 09:44:59
You can always get a refurb CM Storm QuickFire Rapid for $50 and harvest the 87 blue switches from it. Or look on eBay for other used MX switch boards, such as the Compaq MX 11800, etc. and harvest switches from them.

I have ~180 brown stems if anyone wants to buy them cheap (if you don't like blues)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kmiller8 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 09:49:13
Marclgw also is selling new PCB Mount switches for $.60/ea, but only Red/Blue/Brown/Clear

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36337
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Wed, 24 October 2012, 10:22:29
I'd like to be added to the prototype list if possible.  I saw you posted that WhiteFireDragon will be handling US distribution -  if I need assistance with the SMD parts, should I contact him ahead of time?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 24 October 2012, 11:12:15
I have loads of browns, if anyone needs some switches for $.20 each.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 11:48:00
Sure I do. Do you want to pay for prototype in switches?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 24 October 2012, 11:53:42
I could certainly do that if you like. Would work well for me.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tipo33 on Wed, 24 October 2012, 20:27:10
Is it too late to gen in on a prototype PCB?  If not I'll just wait for the final product.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 24 October 2012, 22:20:42
You have a Filco Zero Ski? WTF? When did this happen?

Sorry for the derailment.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 25 October 2012, 00:07:54
I can only assume the inquires about my browns mostly spawned from my post in this thread, so I will just update the quantity here. I currently have 213 available loose and ready to ship, with up to 240 more when I get around to desoldering them.
Those that have dibs on whatever they need first
komar007
whitefiredragon
engicoder

then anyone else on prototype list, then any others.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 01:13:31
Is it too late to gen in on a prototype PCB?  If not I'll just wait for the final product.
I was going to order yesterday, but I didn't, so I'll add you.

I can only assume the inquires about my browns mostly spawned from my post in this thread, so I will just update the quantity here. I currently have 213 available loose and ready to ship, with up to 240 more when I get around to desoldering them.
Those that have dibs on whatever they need first
komar007
whitefiredragon
engicoder

then anyone else on prototype list, then any others.


Not sure how many you reserved for me, but I was thinking something like 120. That should cover the prototype and shipping to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 25 October 2012, 02:13:42
If the Price is right(looks like it will be), I am in too. :)

Edit: F-keys anyone?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 10:41:28
Do you have experience in using paypal for money collection?
I've read about accounts being locked during round 4, I know it's much less money here, but still I'm concerned.
Which option is safer: gift or goods?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Thu, 25 October 2012, 10:48:29
Not on a large scale, but others who have run GBs before may be able to give you a head's up of what's risky.  I would say it's reasonable and safer to go with Goods - I don't mind factoring the 3% Paypal Fee (and I'd imagine others wouldn't either).  I'm not sure of the limitations Paypal enforces that would cause an account to be locked, though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fartq on Thu, 25 October 2012, 10:51:35
services is probably safest. if asked, describe your services as prototyping and kitting.

if it's not too late, i'd like a board. i also have a few hundred extra switches lying around if you need some asap komat
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fartq on Thu, 25 October 2012, 10:52:51
also, ifthis is single layer, have you tried etching a copy komar? this is pretty high volume for a proto
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 25 October 2012, 10:52:54
Goods is safer (than gift), but you must mark it as shipped within a few days.

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 10:59:57
Thanks mkawa_, I'll add you to the list.
As for switches, I'm already buying browns from lysol and I have some reds from 7bit, so this should be enough.


No, I haven't tried (it's double layer), there were supposed to be 4 boards, which then made sense for a prototype. Now it's 16:).
On the other hand there isn't much that can go wrong here. Hopefully.
I was amazed too that so many people wanted it, but it's also a good chance to get the first GH60s cheaper, as they will be more expensive when they're factory assembled, even though the volume will be higher.
The only disadvantage is it might not work:)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 16:15:42
It would be nice to make some gold plated geekhack logo as well as GH60 logo to put on the board.
Do you think I can uses images from here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=16022.0?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 25 October 2012, 16:24:18
It would be nice to make some gold plated geekhack logo as well as GH60 logo to put on the board.
Do you think I can uses images from here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=16022.0?
I plan to get WASD to put it on my spacebar just like I did for my Phantoms
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 16:29:15
I was thinking just on the back side of the pcb so far;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 25 October 2012, 16:32:03
Actually if the prototype board works that spacebar will probably say GH60 Proto or something to that respect
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 16:42:27
Cool;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 25 October 2012, 16:43:05
How many of these boards will be made? how many Prototypes will be made? Is there a price difference between them?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 16:48:44
As many as the number of people who want them +1.
I'll send information about payments very soon.
How many of these boards will be made? how many Prototypes will be made? Is there a price difference between them?
I'm hoping to make about 50 final boards. The final boards will be more expensive, because of smd assembly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:02:52
I'm definitely interested in a final board, as I'm about 85% certain I want to have a 60% clear spring board, I just suck at QA and being a beta tester.

Plus this will give me reason to buy moar keycap sets. 
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:06:47
As many as the number of people who want them +1.
I'll send information about payments very soon.
How many of these boards will be made? how many Prototypes will be made? Is there a price difference between them?
I'm hoping to make about 50 final boards. The final boards will be more expensive, because of smd assembly.

Do you have a rough estimate off the top of your head what that difference would be?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:08:08
Sorry, no idea. I don't want to give estimates, so that I don't have to change them later.
Okay, I was aiming at $50 tag at the beginning, but I know it may be hard, mainly because of high assembly costs. We'll see.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:12:26
Sorry, no idea. I don't want to give estimates, so that I don't have to change them later.
Okay, I was aiming at $50 tag at the beginning, but I know it may be hard, mainly because of high assembly costs. We'll see.

Sounds like you are doing some good work. Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:38:01
"Invoices" sent.
If you wanted a prototype and didn't get a PM, write to me.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:41:51
I think it will be closer to 100+ final boards sold. Perhaps we can get the price of the PCB and plate combo close to $50 at that volume. If someone wants to crank out 100 CNC milled aluminum or stainless cases for these, we could have a final product that is only missing switches and stabilizers. One can only hope. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:43:22
And a case and keycaps;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:43:46
got my invoice, looks like im going to have alot going on. DOX, Filco Custom Controller, KMAC and now GH60 Proto Board
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:44:41
I want Stainless Steel Beast said it might be a possibility
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 25 October 2012, 17:45:30
Well, keycaps, naturally. But who doesn't have more sets of keycaps than keyboards to put them on? If not, you haven't been a member of Geekhack for very long. :P

I was thinking along the lines of the Korean custom group buys, which always come with a PCB, plate, and case.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Thu, 25 October 2012, 18:06:25
Plates are going to be ~$11-$13 like the poker. Even though I got ~90 poker plates ordered, we hit a price ceiling at just 20 plates.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 18:09:47
Well, keycaps, naturally. But who doesn't have more sets of keycaps than keyboards to put them on? If not, you haven't been a member of Geekhack for very long. :P

I was thinking along the lines of the Korean custom group buys, which always come with a PCB, plate, and case.

That's right. I actually bought a set for this keyboard before I started designing the PCB;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Thu, 25 October 2012, 18:19:58
"Invoices" sent.
If you wanted a prototype and didn't get a PM, write to me.
Man I got so busy I forgot about this. What is the prototype layout?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 18:22:08
The layout is whatever you make it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 25 October 2012, 18:22:41
There is several options for layout, it is up to you to decide if you make it ansi or iso and with what bottom row.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Thu, 25 October 2012, 18:25:53
The layout is whatever you make it.
Thanks, PM sending; sorry for being late. Just going to do a somewhat Poker replica but with far better firmware.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 18:42:51
To everybody who is ordering / has ordered a proto kit: please read at least the last 5 pages carefully, or even better, the whole thread.
Unfortunately I'm getting questions which suggest that some of you may not know exactly what you're buying, so I don't want you to be let down when you receive it.

Shortcut:
* the prototype includes a PCB and all the smd components, which you have to solder yourself
* it comes with no warranty. No warranty means no warranty, even if it does not work at all
* there is just one PCB, which supports various layouts (iso and ansi), one of the purposes of this group buy is to test whether all the layouts work correctly
* the kit does not contain a case, keycaps or switches
* it may take some time before the kit comes to you, don't expect it earlier than in a month
* I will mark your payments as shipped so that paypal doesn't lock my account, this will not mean anything has been shipped
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 19:11:12
I've just ordered the parts, so the list is now officially closed.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 25 October 2012, 20:49:15
jdcarpe, can you link the PCB layout file in the OP? (a png with a color per layer is fine) i'd like to check it over for a) sanity and to b) bucket list what i'll need to do to help test the proto
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kmiller8 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 20:51:42
jdcarpe, can you link the PCB layout file in the OP? (a png with a color per layer is fine) i'd like to check it over for a) sanity and to b) bucket list what i'll need to do to help test the proto

Better yet, link the github with all the PCB files up to date https://github.com/komar007/ghkb

EDIT: KiCad keeps telling me I'm using an old version of pcbnew, what version are you using :s
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 25 October 2012, 21:21:05
jdcarpe, can you link the PCB layout file in the OP? (a png with a color per layer is fine) i'd like to check it over for a) sanity and to b) bucket list what i'll need to do to help test the proto

Not sure if that's what you're looking for. If not, post the .png and I'll link it in the OP.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 25 October 2012, 21:51:29
the PNG in the OP is just the backside, no? ie, the diodes are on the backside of the board? (otherwise they look like they're in the keep-out zone of the switches) can you post the front too?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Thu, 25 October 2012, 21:56:45
It looks like many of the switches, especially the bottom modifiers and right side needs to be mounted sideways.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: W.C. Fields on Thu, 25 October 2012, 22:59:35
Gah, just joined the forum and found out about this. Is there any room to still get in?

edit: Good to know. But then I just saw the Model M SSK clone thread too!  :eek:
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 25 October 2012, 23:08:54
It's just the prototype... No reason to freak out.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tipo33 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 23:18:23
You have a Filco Zero Ski? WTF? When did this happen?

Sorry for the derailment.
Yhea, I made a WTB in the Classifieds, and someone put me in touch with Diatec to purchase one of their last display units.  I paid through the nose - and a week later one showed up for sale on DT for 30 euro :(  I love it though, it's a wonderful board.

back on topic:
Paid.  For all those questioning ISO functionality:   Despite living in the US I will be building it ISO for my european self     :p
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Thu, 25 October 2012, 23:23:24
That's quite selfless of you.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tipo33 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 23:47:11
That's quite selfless of you.
I know there was a small demographic interested in the ISO option.   It was actually the selling point for me.  I love my Poker but it's awkward to type on.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 26 October 2012, 00:17:15
Well, keycaps, naturally. But who doesn't have more sets of keycaps than keyboards to put them on? If not, you haven't been a member of Geekhack for very long. :P

I was thinking along the lines of the Korean custom group buys, which always come with a PCB, plate, and case.
I've been here for a year and have yet to get a full cap set... :(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 26 October 2012, 00:19:28
Well, keycaps, naturally. But who doesn't have more sets of keycaps than keyboards to put them on? If not, you haven't been a member of Geekhack for very long. :P

I was thinking along the lines of the Korean custom group buys, which always come with a PCB, plate, and case.
I've been here for a year and have yet to get a full cap set... :(

I have 4 full sets, 1 partial and 2 that are in the GH phase. 7 sets, 2 MX boards

And I do have 2 sets for my SSK
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 26 October 2012, 00:41:36
Wanna sell me a set? :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 26 October 2012, 00:43:29
Wanna sell me a set? :P

I do :) booger/mint green PBT?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 26 October 2012, 00:48:06
tempting...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 26 October 2012, 02:22:13
jdcarpe, can you link the PCB layout file in the OP? (a png with a color per layer is fine) i'd like to check it over for a) sanity and to b) bucket list what i'll need to do to help test the proto

Better yet, link the github with all the PCB files up to date https://github.com/komar007/ghkb

EDIT: KiCad keeps telling me I'm using an old version of pcbnew, what version are you using :s
I'm using bleeding edge from the repo, cloned a few days ago.
It didn't actually compile, I had to fix it myself, sorry for the inconvenience:D

As for layout for you to check before sending, give me a couple of hours to finalize the artwork and I'll post nice PNGs.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mickd on Fri, 26 October 2012, 04:49:43
I'm not sure if you're still taking interest, but colour me interested. Never saw this thread til now and it'll be a long time of reading before I catch up.

I am liking this project a lot..
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 26 October 2012, 04:55:30
Thanks, the interest list is stalled now. It seems there won't be problems with producing enough boards;)
Stay tuned.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Fri, 26 October 2012, 15:52:00
I honestly think we need to try to put something spectacular together for the case, similar to what they do for 356 boards. Really nice design, custom brass inserts with a nice logo placard.

We just need to find a shop capable of such awesomeness, and of course, someone well versed in CAD for the design.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: leesofi on Fri, 26 October 2012, 16:41:41
i think case design is important point, too.
what kind of material .. color... it seems not easy..
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Fri, 26 October 2012, 16:44:23
Definitely, leesofi. I mean, it should be a complete experience, not just a PCB to slap in a Poker.

I am going to sketch a couple of designs up, and see what we can come up with, logistically.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 26 October 2012, 16:44:35
I want Beasts stainless case hands down!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 26 October 2012, 16:58:52
I want Beasts stainless case hands down!

I still need to ask my laser guy if he can cut 1/4" stainless or aluminum. If not, I'll talk to my waterjet guy, he should be able to cut stuff up to 1/2" no matter the material with a super nice edge quality
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 26 October 2012, 17:01:13
I want Beasts stainless case hands down!

I still need to ask my laser guy if he can cut 1/4" stainless or aluminum. If not, I'll talk to my waterjet guy, he should be able to cut stuff up to 1/2" no matter the material with a super nice edge quality
well come on do it ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Fri, 26 October 2012, 17:22:06
Just a quick draft of what I was thinking. Possibly a 2-pc case (top and bottom parts) with a fitting for a plate.


There would be a cutout for a brass plate embossed with the GH60, and geekhack.org in the middle of the inside, or possibly the bottom (backside) of the case.


This would be Aluminum, anodized.

(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q603/magicmeatballs/Private/GH60-Case_zps99b482a0.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Fri, 26 October 2012, 17:22:33
What about a 3d printed case?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 26 October 2012, 17:24:26
I dont think you can print metal
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 26 October 2012, 17:25:28
Actually you can print metal, the Swedish guy was going to print Ti spacebars n stuff

What about a 3d printed case?

I haven't seen any good 3d printed cases :'(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 26 October 2012, 17:29:55
Here are the current pcb files.
I am not a professional electronics designer, so if you have any knowledge or know someone who has, please comment or show it to someone to help fix errors before prototype production.
I'm attaching a zip with gerbers, schematic and renders of both sides.
Top side:
[attach=2]
Bottom side:

[attach=3]


jdcarpe, could you update the OP with this package and replace the current render?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 26 October 2012, 17:51:48
When this board is completed can we get the Gerber's for the community?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hasu on Fri, 26 October 2012, 18:51:23
Actually you can print metal, the Swedish guy was going to print Ti spacebars n stuff

What about a 3d printed case?

I haven't seen any good 3d printed cases :'(

Wow, I didn't know metal printing at all.

suka at DESKTHORITY showed his very nice ergo cases from Shapeways.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/my-diy-keyboard-collection-or-how-i-became-a-kb-geek-t2534.html

I myself like to order (CNC milling?) aluminum case from treble318 when he and his factory come back to the operation.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 26 October 2012, 19:16:11
They do have sintered metal 3d printing, also powdered metal in epoxy.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Fri, 26 October 2012, 19:43:35
I started working on case design a week or two ago in CAD program. I'm trying to have it so that the plate is integrated with the case to hold up the PCB instead of having standoffs that's pushing the PCB up. Basically the plate will the the structural support and the PCB just floats.

What happened to all the other guys that know how to work CAD programs?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kinruan on Fri, 26 October 2012, 19:56:16
i am super interested in it!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kmiller8 on Fri, 26 October 2012, 20:18:01
Here are the current pcb files.
I am not a professional electronics designer, so if you have any knowledge or know someone who has, please comment or show it to someone to help fix errors before prototype production.
I'm attaching a zip with gerbers, schematic and renders of both sides.
Top side:
(Attachment Link)
Bottom side:

(Attachment Link)


jdcarpe, could you update the OP with this package and replace the current render?

That is a piece of art you have created komar. Absolutely gorgeous.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 26 October 2012, 20:23:36
the plate is integrated with the case to hold up the PCB instead of having standoffs that's pushing the PCB up.


Same here
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Fri, 26 October 2012, 22:35:08
Something like the LZmini case (designed for MXmini) would be ideal  :cool:

(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34767.0;attach=2407;image)
*Photo courtesy of Team Redline/DrugER
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: DanGWanG on Fri, 26 October 2012, 22:51:08
Count me in
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 26 October 2012, 23:47:27
I'll see what I can mock up in my free time... I have AutoCAD Inventor and Solidworks that I can tinker with...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 27 October 2012, 07:04:13
If the prototype works, how many are left for the real GB?

What happened to all the other guys that know how to work CAD programs?
Well, it seems as more CAD guys aren't necessary at this point since several have volunteered already, which is why I didn't.

I dont think you can print metal
Yes you can. I have examples of key caps I printed in my thread.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 27 October 2012, 09:07:14
How many are left?  Prototype phase means you have a fab do a small run, in this case 10 boards.  You test them and make sure you got the design right.  Then we do the GB, collect money, and order GB quantity boards.  There is no limit except what we pay for.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 27 October 2012, 09:50:49
When this board is completed can we get the Gerber's for the community?

The gerbers are in the rev A zip file.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Lorem-Ipsum on Sat, 27 October 2012, 10:22:15
Wowza! Just came across this thread.

I'm certainly interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 27 October 2012, 11:44:19
When this board is completed can we get the Gerber's for the community?

The gerbers are in the rev A zip file.
I meant once it is completely done, the final designs etc.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 27 October 2012, 11:52:39
When this board is completed can we get the Gerber's for the community?

The gerbers are in the rev A zip file.
I meant once it is completely done, the final designs etc.

Sure, it's open source;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 27 October 2012, 12:01:11
Sweet!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Skeksis on Sat, 27 October 2012, 12:14:37
You all are on such a good way. Following this thread day by day and even getting more exited every da.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sat, 27 October 2012, 14:54:11
Sanity checking the design will be orders of magnitude easier if you can post the schematic and pcb layout files.

In the tool, mousing over nets is imho the easiest way to debug.

I'm at skydogcon.com right now re-working the conference badges.  Fun times!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 27 October 2012, 15:17:07
They're in a zip in the thread Red...I can't see what post number on my mobile, but they're there.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 27 October 2012, 15:18:16
The kicad files are in the repo.
https://github.com/komar007/ghkb
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 27 October 2012, 15:18:38
I also linked the .zip file below the images in the OP.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sun, 28 October 2012, 00:19:23
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/28/bu2abajy.jpg)Thanjs...

Btw, if anyone is interested in the badge re-work we did at the con, please follow.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 28 October 2012, 00:31:13
Show Image
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/28/bu2abajy.jpg)
Thanjs...

Btw, if anyone is interested in the badge re-work we did at the con, please follow.
Sweet badge Red!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 28 October 2012, 08:40:22
Show Image
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/28/bu2abajy.jpg)
Thanjs...

Btw, if anyone is interested in the badge re-work we did at the con, please follow.
Sweet badge Red!
ditto. cool beans!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 28 October 2012, 08:45:47
it's looking great komar, bang up job for a first-timer, but i'd like __red__, alaric and bpiphany if possible to please sanity check the design. their collective experience with board layouts for switches is a resource we shouldn't waste! :)

once treble gets up and running we should be able to get small quantities of milled cases out the door at a trickle. in the meantime, test and revise, then test and revise again :)

i know i've been a bit MIA, but i'm hugely behind this effort and i want it to succeed. please don't look at my popping in as skepticism; in fact, it's quite the opposite.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 28 October 2012, 09:13:42
Thanks mkawa. So I'll wait until they say something. I should receive most of the parts tomorrow, so I can check the footprints against them and I'll consider testing to be over.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 28 October 2012, 10:40:06
So, I was looking at the PCB...Does this have the ability to use regular ANSI Right Shifts, or must you use an Fn key?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 28 October 2012, 10:43:01
Yes, mount the switch in the third position from the right and the stabilizers around it and you're good to go.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 28 October 2012, 15:52:36
So, I was looking at the PCB...Does this have the ability to use regular ANSI Right Shifts, or must you use an Fn key?
you should be using that Fn key! Custom Layouts Only!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 28 October 2012, 19:09:36
So, I was looking at the PCB...Does this have the ability to use regular ANSI Right Shifts, or must you use an Fn key?
you should be using that Fn key! Custom Layouts Only!
I'll make my 1unit keys a Fn key. I love the aesthetics of a 1.5-1 type deal:)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: BiNiaRiS on Sun, 28 October 2012, 21:04:14
put me down for one of these. been wanting this board since dox first started talking about it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sun, 28 October 2012, 22:08:07
I just noticed something about the holes for the Cherry mounted stabilizers. Are there two different PCB-mounted parts we can buy? because all the holes for the smaller size stabilizers (shifts, backspace, and enter) has the larger hole on the bottom, while the larger hole for the spacebar stabilizers are on the top.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 29 October 2012, 02:32:37
I just noticed something about the holes for the Cherry mounted stabilizers. Are there two different PCB-mounted parts we can buy? because all the holes for the smaller size stabilizers (shifts, backspace, and enter) has the larger hole on the bottom, while the larger hole for the spacebar stabilizers are on the top.
The spacebar has the stabilizer upside down, like in the poker.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 29 October 2012, 07:31:13
Sweet deal, that kinda worried me as well. I'm glad we can use Cherry Stabilizers, I much prefer them to Costar's. I prefer simplicity when removing the keys.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jil_jil32 on Mon, 29 October 2012, 07:57:28
Any chance that we make a full-board LEDs supported PCB? ^.^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 29 October 2012, 08:19:32
Yes, see this (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26751.0) thread. It's called 'The Light.'
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 29 October 2012, 10:59:52
the light is a ways out; the driver ICs we are thinking of sourcing have a 1k MOQ at 5$/ea shipped from germany, and that's just the beginning of the set of issues that project faces.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gameaholic on Mon, 29 October 2012, 12:26:25
Interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 29 October 2012, 15:22:30
the light is a ways out; the driver ICs we are thinking of sourcing have a 1k MOQ at 5$/ea shipped from germany, and that's just the beginning of the set of issues that project faces.
Oof. There has to be a better way to drive the LEDs.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 29 October 2012, 16:45:45
not in that little board space
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 29 October 2012, 17:27:32
13 out of 16 payments done. That means I have enough to order the PCBs.
The rest will cover the parts, shipping and other costs.
I'm doing final corrections, adding nice logos and stuff. Still waiting for at least one technical opinion on the board layout;) Two people to check is always better than one.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Mon, 29 October 2012, 17:32:57
Kicad doesn't see a link between the ground on P6 and and pad 2 of C2. 

I'm pretty sure i do but when my software flags an existing ratsnest i pay attention.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 29 October 2012, 17:40:21
Thanks.
It's a bug, or actually a feature of kicad. It requires actual tracks between everything and doesn't care for planes.
I've changed the layout a bit in the current version, so P6 is actually wired to ground.


EDIT: pushed
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Mon, 29 October 2012, 18:02:35
Diptrace does the exact same thing.  I like the feature as it forces you to address everything.

I'm showing my ignorance of this processor (i program on the parallax propeller) but do you need a programming header to install your original bootloader to allow programming over USB?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 29 October 2012, 18:04:29
No, the chips come preprogrammed with a decent DFU bootloader.
I put the header just in case, so that we can change it someday.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 29 October 2012, 18:09:39
*waiting* So when does the prototype have an ETA of? I want to get the real deal! :P great work and thanks again for bring open source on this. Perhaps you may want to apply a licence to it to prevent anybody from making changes without giving you credit. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 29 October 2012, 18:13:00
The ETA (as for ordering) was yesterday evening, that is 12 minutes ago;)
I think I'll order within a day.
The diodes however will come in like a month or something unfortunately, so they may be here later than the PCBs. We'll see.
I'm not into licenses. I suppose LGPL or one of CCs will be good.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 29 October 2012, 18:19:45
Just trying to help make sure nobody steals your work. ;) Glad to see this all working as planned!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 30 October 2012, 01:54:49
Any chance that we make a full-board LEDs supported PCB? ^.^
also working on DOX v2 will have that finalizing the plate now didnt want to say too much in this thead about it beacause the boards are very close to each other.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Parak on Tue, 30 October 2012, 08:54:04
It's a bug, or actually a feature of kicad. It requires actual tracks between everything and doesn't care for planes.
I've changed the layout a bit in the current version, so P6 is actually wired to ground.

Kicad always respected ground planes for me, as long as they were called GND and the appropriate pins were connected to the GND net. As long as the plane made contact with the pins, I never got validation errors. Hope that helps :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 30 October 2012, 10:20:32
Even if you first put a ground plane, then connect some GND point with a trace to that plane, then save, restart pcbnew and refill the zone?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 30 October 2012, 10:32:26
hey komar, if you get some time, could you send me a plate layout for the "model m" style of plate? I'd like to start working on a case that covers up the two 1x keys between the 1.5 mods

If not I'll try to find a phantom plate (if there is one) with a similar layout to modify
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 30 October 2012, 10:59:03
I haven't started the plates design yet, but I'll let you know when I have something.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 30 October 2012, 11:23:55
The_Beast, you can use the ANSI150 plate drawing from the Phantom designs to get the 1.5-1-1.5 layout. Then just block the 1x between the 1.5's.

The real problem I forsee using standard ANSI with 1.5-1-1.5 mod row on the plate, with covers over the 1x keys on the case top, is what to do about a function key? I guess you could use a 1.75 right shift with a Fn key beside it, but that defeats the purpose of the standard ANSI compatibility. I will probably use that 1x key between the 1.5 mods as a Fn key.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 30 October 2012, 11:30:07
The_Beast, you can use the ANSI150 plate drawing from the Phantom designs to get the 1.5-1-1.5 layout. Then just block the 1x between the 1.5's.

The real problem I forsee using standard ANSI with 1.5-1-1.5 mod row on the plate, with covers over the 1x keys on the case top, is what to do about a function key? I guess you could use a 1.75 right shift with a Fn key beside it, but that defeats the purpose of the standard ANSI compatibility. I will probably use that 1x key between the 1.5 mods as a Fn key.

(you can just call me "beast", I'm not anal like Demik)

I didn't think of that and I don't want a 1x next to my right shift. Either way I just want a case that covers the 1x key spot between the 1.5 mods. I'll probably make the caps lock my function key since I almost never use it anyways and it's an easier reach for me. Plus at work I have all my AutoCAD hotkeys mapped to the caps lock via Autohotkey
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 30 October 2012, 11:31:25
That's not a bad idea. I really like cases that cover that area, as well. Put me down for one when you get it designed. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Parak on Tue, 30 October 2012, 11:59:08
Even if you first put a ground plane, then connect some GND point with a trace to that plane, then save, restart pcbnew and refill the zone?

Well, I don't connect traces to planes typically, although I have in the past for a model F pcb prototype (and what a royal PITA that was) . Either way, they don't disconnect after a reload. DRC is validating stuff just fine. So if I'm doing stuff normally, I label my ground net explicitly in the schematic as GND, then assign the zone to /GND. I bring the zone around the ground pins that need to be connected, and the zone should connect them together, assuming that the traces don't get in the way. If they do get in the way, one could connect pin to pin via a trace on another layer, or do another zone on another layer (which may or may not be a good idea for reasons of interference and such).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 30 October 2012, 12:03:34
I'm not sure so I'll ask:

if the bottom row is 1.5 1 1.5 spacebar 1.5 1 1.5, then the spacebar will be 7 unit right?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Tue, 30 October 2012, 12:04:31
DEMIKBEAR!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 30 October 2012, 12:04:56
DEMIKBEAR!

WAT!?!?!?!?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 30 October 2012, 12:07:07
I'm not sure so I'll ask:

if the bottom row is 1.5 1 1.5 spacebar 1.5 1 1.5, then the spacebar will be 7 unit right?
Yes
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 30 October 2012, 12:34:47
Beast care to make a case for my crazy layout?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 30 October 2012, 12:37:13
If I have time. School is starting to break my balls with group projects, research papers and I like to volunteer when I can.


I make no promisses but if I have time after doing my "model m" case, I'll hit you up
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 30 October 2012, 12:57:27
Well it shouldnt be much different as the model m version just minus the flaps to cover the unused spots
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 30 October 2012, 13:03:43
Well it shouldnt be much different as the model m version just minus the flaps to cover the unused spots

Ohh, ok. That shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to change
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 30 October 2012, 13:05:50
Well ill post the layout to be sure but the plates going to be different and i prefer standard bottom row.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 31 October 2012, 09:36:03
DEMIKBEAR!

WAT!?!?!?!?
DEMIK

BEAR


!!?!>!!?>
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Wed, 31 October 2012, 10:29:31
Does anyone know where I could pick up a 7 unit spacebar for testing once the prototype comes in? I have the caps/switches for everything else, but finding one of those is more difficult and I'm really not feeling like buying a whole keyboard for a single spacebar.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 31 October 2012, 10:30:13
DEMIKBEAR!

WAT!?!?!?!?
DEMIK

BEAR


!!?!>!!?>

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU WANT FROM ME?!?!?!?!?!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 31 October 2012, 10:34:36
Does anyone know where I could pick up a 7 unit spacebar for testing once the prototype comes in? I have the caps/switches for everything else, but finding one of those is more difficult and I'm really not feeling like buying a whole keyboard for a single spacebar.
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/doubleshot-replacements-round-4-t1376-2910.html#p80676 (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/doubleshot-replacements-round-4-t1376-2910.html#p80676)
Here.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Wed, 31 October 2012, 10:37:53

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/doubleshot-replacements-round-4-t1376-2910.html#p80676 (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/doubleshot-replacements-round-4-t1376-2910.html#p80676)
Here.

That would do it. Thanks!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 31 October 2012, 10:41:17
tsangan may or may not have more spacebars than the flying spaghetti monster, and they're all ready to ship out, unlike r4
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: boost on Wed, 31 October 2012, 10:46:10
TL;DR

Can the standard ansi right shift be used instead of the 1800+fn key?


I also want a prototype :(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Wed, 31 October 2012, 10:52:55
TL;DR

Can the standard ansi right shift be used instead of the 1800+fn key?


I also want a prototype :(

Yup, it can handle pretty much any alpha/num area layout imaginable in terms of modifiers.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: boost on Wed, 31 October 2012, 10:55:49
TL;DR

Can the standard ansi right shift be used instead of the 1800+fn key?


I also want a prototype :(

Yup, it can handle pretty much any alpha/num area layout imaginable in terms of modifiers.

Thanks for the super quick answer =)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 31 October 2012, 11:06:33
TL;DR

Can the standard ansi right shift be used instead of the 1800+fn key?


I also want a prototype :(
Sorry, the prototype list is closed.
But I'm ordering some more pcbs, so if everything goes well, you can get one later.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 31 October 2012, 11:22:37
Hey all,

What firmware is being used for the layouts? I might not be able to commit to it right now with work on the eDox UI still under construction, but maybe you would want something similar for this project (assuming the underlying firmware supports it). That is, a UI to handle editing of the layout of the keyboard?

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 31 October 2012, 11:38:20
There will be a GUI to set the layout in runtime. Any help will be appreciated;)
As for firmware I have a custom base for it and I'll implement a layout model with layers and much more, hopefully.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Lorem-Ipsum on Wed, 31 October 2012, 11:44:57
There will be a GUI to set the layout in runtime. Any help will be appreciated;)
As for firmware I have a custom base for it and I'll implement a layout model with layers and much more, hopefully.

I do hope that this will be multi platform as I use Linux and FreeBSD.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Wed, 31 October 2012, 12:03:33
There will be a GUI to set the layout in runtime. Any help will be appreciated;)
As for firmware I have a custom base for it and I'll implement a layout model with layers and much more, hopefully.

I do hope that this will be multi platform as I use Linux and FreeBSD.

If there isn't a multi-platform solution I'm sure someone could write one (I'd be willing to try, but I'm a complete noob and know NOTHING about how to program a keyboard (even though I can program), no better way to learn than to try though, right?)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Wed, 31 October 2012, 12:10:30
I might be able to help with that part once we see it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 31 October 2012, 15:44:10
There will be a GUI to set the layout in runtime. Any help will be appreciated;)
As for firmware I have a custom base for it and I'll implement a layout model with layers and much more, hopefully.

I'm not sure what you mean, how do you plan on doing this without flashing the micro controller directly? Are you doing a Java UI? or something Platform specific? To be completely open, I only do Windows UI programming.

Loren:
Strike my initial comments. There is a way *cough* java *cough*, but that's not something I'd like to do.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 31 October 2012, 15:52:34
For UI I was considering Java/swing and C++/Qt. Or maybe python/Qt.
The micro will be flashed once and later only the layout will be updated and self-programmed through the bootloader API using a separate raw HID descriptor.
Part of this already works;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:00:25
java runtimes are unfortunately a mess right now. i'd say python is the way to go, with either the pygtk or pyqt bindings. imo pygtk is cleanest right now but i don't deal with this stuff day in day out so if there are any experts out there pipe up

komar, how do you get flash access to the micro with your board layout? the micro needs to be user flashable regardless of whether the layout can be written via a HID driver
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:03:36
I still might be able to help with the UI stuff if needed. I just switched jobs and it has a heavy ramp up not to mention me moving so for the next month or so there is no way (and then the holidays :D) but I don't think we're that pressed for time yet.

As for interface, if we want multi-platform I was reading in to it and really Java/swing would still be "easiest" but c++/qt would work. I just don't think it needs to be super fancy or all that "holy **** I need this so fast and responsive" so and swing lets you have a lot of stuff for free. Just my opinion though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:06:16
Here is the layout that I have planned

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/DOX4LayerDefaultTEMP1cropped.png)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/DOX4Layer1TEMP1cropped.png)

Looking for a stainless case for the final model probably going to go with a cardboard one for the proto
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:26:24
java runtimes are unfortunately a mess right now. i'd say python is the way to go, with either the pygtk or pyqt bindings. imo pygtk is cleanest right now but i don't deal with this stuff day in day out so if there are any experts out there pipe up

komar, how do you get flash access to the micro with your board layout? the micro needs to be user flashable regardless of whether the layout can be written via a HID driver
The micro can be flashed using stock DFU bootloader.
And yes, gtk is an option too. I actually prefer it, but I don't know how well it integrates with windows.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:29:24
java runtimes are unfortunately a mess right now. i'd say python is the way to go, with either the pygtk or pyqt bindings. imo pygtk is cleanest right now but i don't deal with this stuff day in day out so if there are any experts out there pipe up

komar, how do you get flash access to the micro with your board layout? the micro needs to be user flashable regardless of whether the layout can be written via a HID driver
The micro can be flashed using stock DFU bootloader.
And yes, gtk is an option too. I actually prefer it, but I don't know how well it integrates with windows.
The GIMP uses GTK+ if I remember right, even on Windows.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:36:07
gtkwin works well. pidgin, gimp and several other large projects use the bindings pretty extensively, so it's unlikely to give anyone fits
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:39:12
Alright, I might have to pass the torch if you go that route then. Java is a poor option. Python probably would be better, but hey I'm no expert.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:41:50
I don't really know much about gtk+, but it looks like it just needs to be compiled into an exe via mingw. Since Sun dosen't seem to do anything about java being a broken mess of security threat, it not even on my machines anymore. I think I would prefer it being not java too.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:44:29
I have no idea what anyone has been talking about in this whole page. I'll I want it to do is have multiple layers, hardware programmable buttons, works with Windows and a nice GUI if at all possible.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 31 October 2012, 16:50:06
I don't really know much about gtk+, but it looks like it just needs to be compiled into an exe via mingw. Since Sun dosen't seem to do anything about java being a broken mess of security threat, it not even on my machines anymore. I think I would prefer it being not java too.
ORACLE, SIR
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 31 October 2012, 17:02:46
Right, I keep forgetting. Either way...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 31 October 2012, 17:05:26
Each time I want to send this PCB project I find something else I can do better...
I think it's time to stop.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Wed, 31 October 2012, 17:14:09
Right, I keep forgetting. Either way...
Either way, I'm in to help depending on when the work is done. Java/C++/Python, I don't care, code is code.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 31 October 2012, 17:18:09
Send it to get prototyped! We can fix outstanding things for the final PCB. Great work and I can't wait for the group buy/files to be released, since I might not be able to afford the GB, thus I can get the parts later via the files, if need be.

Thanks again for your work Komar!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 31 October 2012, 17:36:12
Each time I want to send this PCB project I find something else I can do better...
I think it's time to stop.
we can wait komar, if you need some rerouting time. just submit for a netlist review before you send to press

god knows alaric has nothing better to do... HAH!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 31 October 2012, 17:42:26
Okay.
This is what I consider final.

The kicad files are already pushed to the repo.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 31 October 2012, 17:49:41
__red__, can you and your script take a quick look?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 31 October 2012, 18:05:17
Mmmmm Gerber files. :) Thanks Komar!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Wed, 31 October 2012, 21:42:23
__red__, can you and your script take a quick look?

NOt until tomorrow at work.  The last version looked good as far as schematic -> PCB went.  I don't know enough about the hardware side of MX keyboards (stabilizers et al) to comment.  I'll be reviewing the schematic tomorrow.



Red
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 31 October 2012, 22:40:14
I have no idea what anyone has been talking about in this whole page. I'll I want it to do is have multiple layers, hardware programmable buttons, works with Windows and a nice GUI if at all possible.

If it's done in python I'm sure something passable can be thought up. I'll just have to wait and see what comes out in terms of firmware. Regardless, I'm sure the features you want will be available.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 31 October 2012, 22:44:31
I have no idea what anyone has been talking about in this whole page. I'll I want it to do is have multiple layers, hardware programmable buttons, works with Windows and a nice GUI if at all possible.

If it's done in python I'm sure something passable can be thought up. I'll just have to wait and see what comes out in terms of firmware. Regardless, I'm sure the features you want will be available.

Cheers,
LoL. "Something passable"
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 31 October 2012, 22:52:35
I have no idea what anyone has been talking about in this whole page. I'll I want it to do is have multiple layers, hardware programmable buttons, works with Windows and a nice GUI if at all possible.

If it's done in python I'm sure something passable can be thought up. I'll just have to wait and see what comes out in terms of firmware. Regardless, I'm sure the features you want will be available.

Cheers,

I don't mind editing text to change keys, as long as someone gives me some kind a direction to start from. A GUI would make it easier for those of us who are not software inclined.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 01 November 2012, 01:25:25
For me i just need the layout setup once maybe twice if i need a slight change.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Thu, 01 November 2012, 11:48:54
I have no idea what anyone has been talking about in this whole page. I'll I want it to do is have multiple layers, hardware programmable buttons, works with Windows and a nice GUI if at all possible.
Cheers,
LoL. "Something passable"
That's what I'm thinking. If I do this I have no idea where to start because I've never even seen what is expected out of a GUI for this so I fully intend to hack it to hell and back. If anyone has some idea of what they want it might be best to post ITT w/ pictures or sketches.
If it's done in python I'm sure something passable can be thought up. I'll just have to wait and see what comes out in terms of firmware. Regardless, I'm sure the features you want will be available.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 01 November 2012, 12:07:04
Yes, you just have to wait;)
We need working hardware first.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JBert on Thu, 01 November 2012, 14:30:06
I'm interested as long as the ISO 1.25 Winkey PCB + Plate goes through.

BTW: what bootloader are you putting on those Atmels, or do we still need to program them and solder it to the PCB upon arrival?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 01 November 2012, 14:37:17
I have no idea what anyone has been talking about in this whole page. I'll I want it to do is have multiple layers, hardware programmable buttons, works with Windows and a nice GUI if at all possible.
Cheers,
LoL. "Something passable"
That's what I'm thinking. If I do this I have no idea where to start because I've never even seen what is expected out of a GUI for this so I fully intend to hack it to hell and back. If anyone has some idea of what they want it might be best to post ITT w/ pictures or sketches.
If it's done in python I'm sure something passable can be thought up. I'll just have to wait and see what comes out in terms of firmware. Regardless, I'm sure the features you want will be available.

nebo,

     Here is how this would work (if it's a teensy):
     Firstly, you'll have to think of this as two separate pieces: the user interface that will allow you to set up the keymappings/layers , and the middleware that will translate it into what the firmware will see. The former isn't too bad (just put together 60 buttons that look like a keyboard in this case, each showing the currently mapped key), but the latter can be challenging depending on how the firmware is written.  You may have to do very little work, or quite a bit. Either way, after you've edited either precompiled firmware, or compiled it aside after editing the firmware source with the new mappings, you'll need to flash the teensy microcontroller manually. I believe there is a commandline utility which does this in Linux and for Windows, which can be executed silently (and therefore available from your python).

Hopefully this will give you an idea of how I have envisioned this type of project.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 01 November 2012, 15:49:03
I'm interested as long as the ISO 1.25 Winkey PCB + Plate goes through.

BTW: what bootloader are you putting on those Atmels, or do we still need to program them and solder it to the PCB upon arrival?
I know on the prototypes that you have to solder the ATMega onto the board. With the final revision, I would assume that they fabricator will be soldering them on for us, though, I'd prefer to do it all myself. :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 01 November 2012, 16:01:54
I'm interested as long as the ISO 1.25 Winkey PCB + Plate goes through.

BTW: what bootloader are you putting on those Atmels, or do we still need to program them and solder it to the PCB upon arrival?
I know on the prototypes that you have to solder the ATMega onto the board. With the final revision, I would assume that they fabricator will be soldering them on for us, though, I'd prefer to do it all myself. :P
to my knowledge the final will be all done by the factory
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 01 November 2012, 16:04:14
That's what I would've assumed, but wasn't sure.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 01 November 2012, 16:07:55
Also the MCU comes with the DFU bootloader and will retain that, so you use Flip to load a new firmware.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 01 November 2012, 16:08:23
to my knowledge the final will be all done by the factory
or by me, if it appears too expensive;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 01 November 2012, 16:30:41
For programming, in my mind it would just be easiest with 2 keyboards hooked up. Press a key on the keyboard to program and it would bring up a question mark, then press a key on working keyboard that you want that to be. Move onto the next key and repeat until done. Save, then it would write. It's sort of like how the Access IS programming utility works, might look at that? It's kind of clunky but it works and is pretty dummy proof.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nebo on Thu, 01 November 2012, 16:49:04
For programming, in my mind it would just be easiest with 2 keyboards hooked up. Press a key on the keyboard to program and it would bring up a question mark, then press a key on working keyboard that you want that to be. Move onto the next key and repeat until done. Save, then it would write. It's sort of like how the Access IS programming utility works, might look at that? It's kind of clunky but it works and is pretty dummy proof.
True, and while everyone should have a second keyboard to do this with, it is far too limiting. FN layer comes to mind, how do you emulate a vol+ keypress if you don't have one? Short answer is you don't very easily.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 01 November 2012, 18:34:47
atmega* is easy to obtain. we should be able to have pick-n-place done by the factory no problem. i believe red now has some experience with one ebay vendor who offers this service, as his hackercon badges were all pick-n-place leds
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 01 November 2012, 19:05:23
I know that a fab would be easy to do this, but being able to do it all myself gives me some sort of sense of accomplishment. Plus, tis not like I don't have the gear with my dad's job of an EE. I have all the flux, solder and iron at home ready for my hackery, that I use quite often, thought be had.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 01 November 2012, 19:37:00
The Access IS utility also has a menu where you can select scancode. I am not a programmer, so it was only a suggestion. I don't really know how easy these things are, especially since it needs to be interacted with at a hardware level. I think Windows stuff may be a lot harder since all the driver signing type stuff, especially on x64 and from my experience with programmable boards, x86 only doesn't work on x64 for these things.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 01 November 2012, 20:03:43
I know that a fab would be easy to do this, but being able to do it all myself gives me some sort of sense of accomplishment. Plus, tis not like I don't have the gear with my dad's job of an EE. I have all the flux, solder and iron at home ready for my hackery, that I use quite often, thought be had.

nice for prototyping, but as your dad well knows, when we kit it up, we'll want as few assembly steps as possible, and it's not a lot of added cost to get pick-n-place done at board fab time
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 01 November 2012, 20:23:05
I know that a fab would be easy to do this, but being able to do it all myself gives me some sort of sense of accomplishment. Plus, tis not like I don't have the gear with my dad's job of an EE. I have all the flux, solder and iron at home ready for my hackery, that I use quite often, thought be had.

nice for prototyping, but as your dad well knows, when we kit it up, we'll want as few assembly steps as possible, and it's not a lot of added cost to get pick-n-place done at board fab time
Roger Kawa. I await the group buy. *twiddles thumbs*
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 01 November 2012, 21:55:42
The Access IS utility also has a menu where you can select scancode. I am not a programmer, so it was only a suggestion. I don't really know how easy these things are, especially since it needs to be interacted with at a hardware level. I think Windows stuff may be a lot harder since all the driver signing type stuff, especially on x64 and from my experience with programmable boards, x86 only doesn't work on x64 for these things.

This is not a big issue, as long as your OS is set to EN (or whatever default you are used to), because one would be modifying the firmware directly, and the OS will not care as long as it gets an ASCII character. you can create some crazy things, however, if you use a hardware mapping that's customized and decide to do something in HE on windows, because your standard HE layout will be confused by the hardware EN layout. Remember, there won't be any drivers, ever. It's going to be completely plug and play. This means that you will be able to take your keyboard to any computer and the layout will be preserved, once it's flashed onto the teensy.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 01 November 2012, 22:05:50
Keyboards do NOT send ASCII.  They send keycodes.  Those keycodes get interpreted differently depending on the settings of your OS.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 02 November 2012, 08:40:06
Keyboards do NOT send ASCII.  They send keycodes.  Those keycodes get interpreted differently depending on the settings of your OS.

Yah you're right. I messed that up and figured it out this morning the mistake made.

My bad!

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Fri, 02 November 2012, 13:28:10
ebcdic > ascaii :D

(I'm old)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: winzds on Fri, 02 November 2012, 14:05:29
Nice keyboard
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Fri, 02 November 2012, 15:42:33
I don't see any show-stoppers in the board's design.  If there is, we'll fix it!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 02 November 2012, 15:49:01
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Thanks Red!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 02 November 2012, 16:30:36
Fine, I'm sending the files today.
The money is long paid, so it's high time.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Fri, 02 November 2012, 17:17:14
...and here we go :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 02 November 2012, 17:21:16
whooo hooo, cant wait!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OddOne on Fri, 02 November 2012, 17:25:58
Very excited for this komar and company.  Can't wait to see some protos.  Good work everyone!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 02 November 2012, 17:28:05
Sent.
Now I have to wait until Monday when they check it out and tell me what is wrong. Then I'll correct it, send again, then correct, etc. ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 02 November 2012, 17:32:34
Sent.
Now I have to wait until Monday when they check it out and tell me what is wrong. Then I'll correct it, send again, then correct, etc. ;)
sounds good hopefully there are not many corrections
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 02 November 2012, 17:41:26
Sent.
Now I have to wait until Monday when they check it out and tell me what is wrong. Then I'll correct it, send again, then correct, etc. ;)
sounds good hopefully there are not many corrections
I'm only concerned about those switch holes which overlap. They may not like it and I'll have to change them into slots, like in Phantom.
The rest shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 02 November 2012, 18:19:24
Not slots! Anything but slots! :P looking good Komar!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Fri, 02 November 2012, 19:45:07
Sent.
Now I have to wait until Monday when they check it out and tell me what is wrong. Then I'll correct it, send again, then correct, etc. ;)
sounds good hopefully there are not many corrections
I'm only concerned about those switch holes which overlap. They may not like it and I'll have to change them into slots, like in Phantom.
The rest shouldn't be a problem.
very likely. if we have to slot though we have to slot :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Fri, 02 November 2012, 19:53:30
Which board-house are you using?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 02 November 2012, 19:56:54
Aren't most houses made of boards Red?
(http://wene.net/Garage%20Phote/house%204-11-06%20002.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Fri, 02 November 2012, 22:44:48
That's an American construction method.  In Europe, we make our houses out of brick.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WRXChris on Fri, 02 November 2012, 22:49:14
That's an American construction method.  In Europe, we make our houses out of brick.

In Europe, you also don't eat GMO **** food or high fructose corn syrup.  When profit isn't the primary focus it's amazing how much better off the average person is!

And to get back on topic, count me as interested in 1 for sure!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 02 November 2012, 22:52:24
That's an American construction method.  In Europe, we make our houses out of brick.
You aren't in Europe? LoL!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 03 November 2012, 03:51:39
Which board-house are you using?
pcbcart
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sat, 03 November 2012, 09:26:22
Which board-house are you using?
pcbcart

Damn they're expensive for boards... it makes sense to use them tho if they're more cost effective for pick and place.

(Need to finish building my pick and place machine)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 03 November 2012, 12:43:10
Which board-house are you using?
pcbcart

Damn they're expensive for boards... it makes sense to use them tho if they're more cost effective for pick and place.

(Need to finish building my pick and place machine)
Building?????????
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Parak on Sat, 03 November 2012, 12:58:51
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230874735122 clearly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 03 November 2012, 14:03:50

Damn they're expensive for boards... it makes sense to use them tho if they're more cost effective for pick and place.

(Need to finish building my pick and place machine)
It's not that bad, and I heard they're good quality.
Anyway we'll see what we'll use for production. I'd like to see these boards first;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 03 November 2012, 14:05:07
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230874735122 clearly.

Need to swap out the keycaps on that unit.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Ascaii on Sun, 04 November 2012, 01:28:54
Am I too late to be added to the list? :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 04 November 2012, 01:32:53
Am I too late to be added to the list? :)
For prototyping, yea. The GB hasn't started yet though, so you're in luck!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gizzard on Sun, 04 November 2012, 01:08:55
Add me to the interest list!!!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 04 November 2012, 01:10:52
I think a while back he said there is way more than enough interest and that once the pcb is finialized a GB will be started up
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 04 November 2012, 15:31:59
Yes, we are past the interest phase and into the prototyping phase. Don't worry, you don't have to have expressed interest in this project to participate in the group buy. I think we want everyone who wants this GH-inspired and -designed keyboard to have one (or more)!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sun, 04 November 2012, 21:25:00
Which board-house are you using?
pcbcart

Damn they're expensive for boards... it makes sense to use them tho if they're more cost effective for pick and place.

(Need to finish building my pick and place machine)
Building?????????

Oh ye of little faith...

http://code.google.com/p/openpnp/
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 04 November 2012, 21:43:05
Now that, my friend, is a cool project.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Batmann on Mon, 05 November 2012, 07:42:53
looks very cool indeed, watching the Y axis demo was enough to turn me on
what applications do you foresee for the average user?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Viz on Mon, 05 November 2012, 13:13:39
Just a couple of questions:
1) How is it with linux and BSD support?
2) what is the assumed price?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 05 November 2012, 13:57:00
Just a couple of questions:
1) How is it with linux and BSD support?
2) what is the assumed price?
I would assume that it will work on Linux, not sure about programming it, but it will function.
I believe the price for the PCB and plate was supposed to be around $60 IIRC.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 05 November 2012, 14:24:13
I would assume that it will work on Linux, not sure about programming it, but it will function.
It will work on Linux, that's for sure. Support for other systems will depend on whether other people who use them will help with development;D.
That's as for programming. As for typing it has to work on everything out of the box, of course.
I believe the price for the PCB and plate was supposed to be around $60 IIRC.
Seems legit, but we'll see.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: theOwlol on Mon, 05 November 2012, 14:40:16
I did not feel like reading 27 pages but.... could I do this as an ANSI enter with ISO small left shift+ extra key?  ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 05 November 2012, 14:42:59
The PCB can do it, but that may not be available as a plate.  Depends on how many like that are wanted.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Mon, 05 November 2012, 14:51:55
It will work on Linux, that's for sure. Support for other systems will depend on whether other people who use them will help with development;D.
That's as for programming. As for typing it has to work on everything out of the box, of course.

I'll volunteer to help something get working on windows, I don't have access to a Mac though, so someone else will have to develop for that.

Works out really well too since I volunteered to get a prototype board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 06 November 2012, 04:27:26
It seems there will be no problem with overlapping holes. The order is scheduled to ship on Nov 17.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 06 November 2012, 08:16:35
Good news!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Tue, 06 November 2012, 09:26:14
Good to hear, komar!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 06 November 2012, 10:10:06
Yes, that is awesome! Ship to you in 11 days makes me happy. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 06 November 2012, 11:53:28
That's pretty quick. I'm starting to get really excited.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Index on Tue, 06 November 2012, 15:05:25
When/How do we provide shipping info?

Also, I've was wondering if it's possible to add in the options of having 2 keys where the backspace is (like in the HHKB).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: zirb on Tue, 06 November 2012, 15:09:27
i'm interested
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 06 November 2012, 15:24:06
When/How do we provide shipping info?
For US-based testers, please settle the costs and all shipping info with WhiteFireDragon. For sure he'll inform you about everything once he gets the PCBs.
Also, I've was wondering if it's possible to add in the options of having 2 keys where the backspace is (like in the HHKB).
I'll have to check if it's easily doable. It may require some matrix changes.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 07 November 2012, 04:30:15
My bad thought it was already there... Guess i read the pcb wrong.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jspark on Fri, 09 November 2012, 11:12:59
I have a question. Is it going to be a fully programmable keyboard? I want a keyboard to remember my layout. I'm sick of installing my layout every time I type on other computer.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 09 November 2012, 11:24:01
I have a question. Is it going to be a fully programmable keyboard? I want a keyboard to remember my layout. I'm sick of installing my layout every time I type on other computer.

Yes.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jspark on Fri, 09 November 2012, 13:06:22
I have a question. Is it going to be a fully programmable keyboard? I want a keyboard to remember my layout. I'm sick of installing my layout every time I type on other computer.

Yes.

Cheers,
Great!! I will definitely buy one or two.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 09 November 2012, 13:18:27
I have a question. Is it going to be a fully programmable keyboard? I want a keyboard to remember my layout. I'm sick of installing my layout every time I type on other computer.

Yes.

Cheers,
Great!! I will definitely buy one or two.

I very much would like to see the firmware as soon as it becomes available.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 09 November 2012, 16:54:38
Put me down as interested as well.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Batmann on Fri, 09 November 2012, 17:04:47
Also interested  :)
if I understood correctly, this will fit in a poker case, am I right?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jeroplane on Fri, 09 November 2012, 18:45:44
Been lurking this thread, but putting down my vote of interest now. This looks really exciting!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Batmann on Sat, 10 November 2012, 03:30:46
^ I'm no big fan of painted keycaps but I must admit that the more I see this green and purple, the more I like it.
pretty neat, nice job here
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jeroplane on Sat, 10 November 2012, 04:37:17
^ I'm no big fan of painted keycaps but I must admit that the more I see this green and purple, the more I like it.
pretty neat, nice job here

Thanks! We're actually going to be selling a whole bunch of these later on this month. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rbo289 on Sat, 10 November 2012, 07:12:10
Woah, interrested!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: snoopy on Sat, 10 November 2012, 09:49:37
I also want one :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: guilleguillaume on Sat, 10 November 2012, 09:54:49
I'm really interested in this project so far. Would get some of them in different layouts.

Quote
Also, I've was wondering if it's possible to add in the options of having 2 keys where the backspace is (like in the HHKB).

That would be fantastic. A HHKB Pro 2 with MX Cherry.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acanthophis on Sat, 10 November 2012, 12:20:07
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/hypermicro-and-hypermini-keyboard-t4185.html
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 10 November 2012, 12:29:24
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/hypermicro-and-hypermini-keyboard-t4185.html
Thats been posted on GH before but I believe to be completely different than what were trying to accomplish.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 10 November 2012, 13:13:58
For instance, we plan on getting it done.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: iMav on Sat, 10 November 2012, 13:21:24
For instance, we plan on getting it done.
:thumbs:
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 10 November 2012, 13:22:05
And plan on having a case!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acanthophis on Sat, 10 November 2012, 22:51:22
Thats been posted on GH before but I believe to be completely different than what were trying to accomplish.
Oh, I forgot the Hyper thingies are plans for a full 104 keyboard with some sort of Alps. My bad!
So yeah, those two projects are so not alike!
Stupid me...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 11 November 2012, 13:48:31
Thats been posted on GH before but I believe to be completely different than what were trying to accomplish.
Oh, I forgot the Hyper thingies are plans for a full 104 keyboard with some sort of Alps. My bad!
So yeah, those two projects are so not alike!
Stupid me...
Thats not what im referring to I refering to that the GH60 is a community built project and that is and idea 7bit came up with to get rid of his extras...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acanthophis on Sun, 11 November 2012, 16:20:31
Who says the quick mockups 7bit did are the final ones?
I assume you didn't read through the thread, otherwise you would have spotted oneproduct's layout and webwit's qHack (Cherry HHKB with trackpoint, mouse wheel and mouse buttons).

It may be true 7bit is looking for other options to get rid of keycaps (round4) and switches, but to say it's not community based... last time I checked 7bit was still a community member, not an online keyboard shop.


Anyway, guilleguillaume asked for a Cherry HHKB. I don't see a chance for a HHKB layout here, so I simply redirected him to the project where it might happen. To help is all I wanted...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 11 November 2012, 17:08:57
I did read through the thread and am interested in it myself and i do hope it eventually comes to fruition as I would like to build one or 2.

Sure you can do the HHKB layout if you want you will have extra mods though. it may be missing the 2 1x keys instead of backspace but those may be added in the final version.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Tue, 13 November 2012, 05:10:36
4 days $$ :-D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 13 November 2012, 05:19:33
4 days $$ :-D
The bad news is the switches for going into DFU will come in 2 weeks.
If you really can't wait, I can substitute them with some others which match the footprint, but they won't be as nice;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 13 November 2012, 07:31:17
Bah! Shenanigans! Still glad this is coming though! I hope you guys don't find anything upstanding that you need to fix. Also, once we are sure that the board is functional, should we move into group buy stage, or should we wait until all the prototypes are built?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 13 November 2012, 07:41:44
I'd wait until we have tested all layouts at least. And we still don't have plates.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 13 November 2012, 08:12:53
I'd wait until we have tested all layouts at least. And we still don't have plates.
Forgot about that. Gotcha, so ISO and ANSI and what else? The HHKB layout etc?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Tue, 13 November 2012, 08:17:46
4 days $$ :-D
The bad news is the switches for going into DFU will come in 2 weeks.
If you really can't wait, I can substitute them with some others which match the footprint, but they won't be as nice;)

One of the advantage I have - I'm 45 mins from newark.com (Premier / Farnell / Element 14), one of the largest electronics suppliers in the world ;-)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Tue, 13 November 2012, 11:49:41
4 days $$ :-D
The bad news is the switches for going into DFU will come in 2 weeks.
If you really can't wait, I can substitute them with some others which match the footprint, but they won't be as nice;)

One of the advantage I have - I'm 45 mins from newark.com (Premier / Farnell / Element 14), one of the largest electronics suppliers in the world ;-)


I am now jealous. Not fair.

Although i do have sparkfun about that far from me. So life here has it's advantages.

Do we want people who are doing the prototypes to sign up for different board styles to make sure we get one of each at least?

Also, I got some PBT keycaps for the prototype, put them on my work keyboard temporarily to test them out and now I'm going to have to buy a new set because i like these so much. :(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Tue, 13 November 2012, 12:33:21

I am now jealous. Not fair.

Although i do have sparkfun about that far from me. So life here has it's advantages.

Do we want people who are doing the prototypes to sign up for different board styles to make sure we get one of each at least?

Also, I got some PBT keycaps for the prototype, put them on my work keyboard temporarily to test them out and now I'm going to have to buy a new set because i like these so much. :(

I plan on trying a few different layouts with the prototype, but I think the standard GH60 layout is going to be my favorite  ^-^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 13 November 2012, 12:37:16
Which one is the "standard"?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 13 November 2012, 12:47:35
The beauty of it is there's no standard layout:)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 13 November 2012, 12:52:21
Which one is the "standard"?

I'm guessing a lot of people will be doing the "poker" layout since all SP key cap sets should work without need of kits so I would call that one "standard". I also see ISO being popular and same with the "model M" layout.

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 13 November 2012, 12:57:09
I want the one with the 1.5 mods and the 1 Super keys. That would be sweet!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 13 November 2012, 12:59:19
I want the one with the 1.5 mods and the 1 Super keys. That would be sweet!

Depending on price I'll be buying at least 2. One to do a "poker" layout and one to do a "model M" layout (1.5 1 1.5 with the 1x key being covered)

+ maybe another one for a different layout
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Thu, 15 November 2012, 02:42:46

Do we want people who are doing the prototypes to sign up for different board styles to make sure we get one of each at least?


I'll be doing a standard ISO layout.  I need to get a plate cut too, need to verify whatever file we're going with for the group buy.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 15 November 2012, 02:44:43
Ill have to do the same for my screwy layout whatever it may end up being.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Thu, 15 November 2012, 03:38:27
I was just going to cut down the phantom iso plate to size.  It's finding the time at the moment to do anything but post :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 15 November 2012, 03:47:14
I was just going to cut down the phantom iso plate to size.  It's finding the time at the moment to do anything but post :)
idk if spaceing is the same i know there was some talk about that in the beginning of the thread.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Thu, 15 November 2012, 04:42:05
Wasn't the spacing because the original pokers spacing was off?

Bit you're right I need to check.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Thu, 15 November 2012, 11:29:01
If someone who knows all the styles of layouts for the board could post them that would be really awesome. I've read through the entire thread and I'm still a little confused on which ones of the suggested layouts it supports.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 15 November 2012, 15:45:53
If someone who knows all the styles of layouts for the board could post them that would be really awesome. I've read through the entire thread and I'm still a little confused on which ones of the suggested layouts it supports.
The third image in the first post tells everything you need.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Thu, 15 November 2012, 15:59:56
If someone who knows all the styles of layouts for the board could post them that would be really awesome. I've read through the entire thread and I'm still a little confused on which ones of the suggested layouts it supports.
The third image in the first post tells everything you need.

So then there's only 3 layouts? With all the people asking if "it can do X" I kind of figured there were more.

That makes it considerably simpler.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 15 November 2012, 16:02:52
There are a number of different switches that can be placed in different positions.

In doing them differently, I see at least 24 different layouts that could be made (just a quick count, probably more), unless I'm missing something?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Thu, 15 November 2012, 16:14:04
Ah got it. So as long as they don't overlap then they can probably be switched between. There's nothing keeping the board using one color of overlap.

ok. that makes things a little more interesting. (and this is going to end up with some very interesting keyboards)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Octane on Fri, 16 November 2012, 10:06:41
Amazing project guys. I wish I could contribute, but this is beyond my technical expertise. But I will certainly buy a couple. Thanks for this !!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sat, 17 November 2012, 14:51:56
Haven't checked in since ~10 pages ago, did the prototypes get sent out yet?  Where we at?

I've got a bag of Clears sitting in my drawer waiting to go onto the board...but they might make it to my Filco first if my new plate comes before. 

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 17 November 2012, 15:11:59
I think they should be coming from the fab to komar next week sometime if I understood right.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 17 November 2012, 15:15:41
^ You did. I'm super excited.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 17 November 2012, 15:53:33
They're in Germany now;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 17 November 2012, 16:14:41
HELL YEAH!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sat, 17 November 2012, 16:48:02
Superb.  Very excited to see what the results are :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Sun, 18 November 2012, 01:40:47
Damn I really need to do that plate!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sun, 18 November 2012, 05:40:44
Gotta make sure the PCB works first, and it can be programmed properly. Otherwise, any plate layout will be useless at this point.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 18 November 2012, 12:02:27
The plate shouldn't be too bad. The Phantom plates could be cut down (digitally) and they would work.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: daerid on Sun, 18 November 2012, 12:46:09
If I can reprogram this to have a HHKB layout, put me down for one.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Mon, 19 November 2012, 04:35:09
The plate shouldn't be too bad. The Phantom plates could be cut down (digitally) and they would work.

Can they?  I'm not sure if the keys have been moved slightly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 19 November 2012, 07:44:09
If they have it isn't the end of the world...just a bit of tinkering then.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Mon, 19 November 2012, 09:14:02
I want the one with the 1.5 mods and the 1 Super keys. That would be sweet!

This is what I meant by 'standard' layout, as it's depicted in the OP, but I'll definitely be trying out several layouts regardless. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 19 November 2012, 09:32:20
Ah good man! Now we need more bottom row 1unit modifiers...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 19 November 2012, 12:25:26
The boards have come.
More info later:D


EDIT: a bit crap quality pics.
[attach=1][attach=2]
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Mon, 19 November 2012, 13:07:27
Woot!! Looks awesome.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 19 November 2012, 13:09:15
Is that matte black or is it just the photography?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: boost on Mon, 19 November 2012, 13:14:28
The boards have come.
More info later:D


EDIT: a bit crap quality pics.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

looks great. Can't wait to see it with switches and keys :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 19 November 2012, 13:26:44
Hawt damn that looks good
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: 4LI4Z on Mon, 19 November 2012, 13:55:30
The boards have come.
More info later:D


EDIT: a bit crap quality pics.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

That looks fantastic, I love black PCBs.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: GMC on Mon, 19 November 2012, 14:01:14
This looks very cool.  Can someone confirm it could support

- 2 of 1x keys instead of the normal backspace to give backspace and delete
- Short left shift + a fn key as well as a short right shift + a fn key
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: eon on Mon, 19 November 2012, 14:01:47
Looking good! Very exited by this!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 19 November 2012, 14:08:46
Is that matte black or is it just the photography?
It is matte finish. I decided for it because I thought it looks cool. After I saw it I still think it does, but it catches fingerprints very easily and every scratch is very visible, so I think we may go with glossy for production. Maybe all the testers will just vote.

I've just soldered the controller part of the board,  plugged it in and it enumerates as atmel DFU, so things are looking good;)
It looks like it fits the case, but I have some worries that it might be moved a bit horizontally, I'll see when I solder the switches.

That would be it as for news.;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Batmann on Mon, 19 November 2012, 14:26:32
thx for the updates, this is getting more and more exciting (even more since I discovered I don't like my poker layout)

I wouldn't have imagined a piece of pcb could be enough to turn me on!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 19 November 2012, 14:47:13
I've got my case, switches, stabilizers and keycaps ready and waiting...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Mon, 19 November 2012, 15:29:43
Can someone enumerate what i would need for stabilizers.  Thus is a black hole of knowledge for me.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 19 November 2012, 15:34:23
Sweet! Thanks for the pictures Komar!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 19 November 2012, 15:38:13
Any 2x or larger key needs a Cherry PCB mount stab... since there is no plate design yet, that's the only option.  onlinecomponents.com (http://www.onlinecomponents.com/cherry-electrical-g990742.html?p=11075025) sells what you need in regard to 2x stabs, no one we've found sells space bar size stabs.

1/16" wire and a proper wire bender and you can make your own. 


Not knowing your layout prefs, backspace, both shifts, enter and space bar on an ANSI layout.  (5 total)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: absyrd on Mon, 19 November 2012, 15:40:10
Thanks for the update. I like the matte black, too. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 19 November 2012, 16:20:06
- 2 of 1x keys instead of the normal backspace to give backspace and delete
Maybe in the final version. Not in the prototype.
- Short left shift + a fn key as well as a short right shift + a fn key
Yes.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: MMB on Mon, 19 November 2012, 18:48:52
We need to find a vendor to produce high quality cases, and start an IC/GB.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 19 November 2012, 19:44:28
We need to find a vendor to produce high quality cases, and start an IC/GB.

I'm working on one.

Do we even have a time frame for when the GB will start?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: boost on Mon, 19 November 2012, 19:50:05
We need to find a vendor to produce high quality cases, and start an IC/GB.

I'm working on one.

Do we even have a time frame for when the GB will start?

You too. ;)

Do you wanna join up on making it?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 19 November 2012, 19:53:01
We need to find a vendor to produce high quality cases, and start an IC/GB.

I'm working on one.

Do we even have a time frame for when the GB will start?

You too. ;)

Do you wanna join up on making it?

Sure, but I'm not sure what you could help on

I plan on getting the majority of it cut by my laser guy, sent to treb to get he edges cleaned up and a bit of milling and then I know an anodizing place that is pretty cheap.

Here's why the edges need to be milled, laser cutting thicker stock leaves serration:
(http://img1.UploadScreenshot.com/images/thumb/11/30617023737.jpg) (http://www.UploadScreenshot.com/image/1604182/9863021)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 19 November 2012, 19:53:47
Is treb back in action?  Thought they were still putting things back together.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 19 November 2012, 19:54:27
Is treb back in action?  Thought they were still putting things back together.

I sent him a PM about this project, no reply. I think he said he'd be back at the end of this month. This is kinda why I'd like to know when the GH60 is rolling out so I can plan stuff n things
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gameaholic on Mon, 19 November 2012, 20:13:04
I've got my case, switches, stabilizers and keycaps ready and waiting...

What case are you going with? 
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 19 November 2012, 20:51:44
Beast, based on a quick skim of THIS (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37412.0) thread, you're designing the case to have multiple pieces and not CNC'ed from one solid block of aluminum?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 19 November 2012, 21:03:02
Beast, based on a quick skim of THIS (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37412.0) thread, you're designing the case to have multiple pieces and not CNC'ed from one solid block of aluminum?

2 piece, just like my lunch ^___^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 19 November 2012, 21:35:19
I would think the GB would proceed soon after the new year. That gives the testers time to provide feedback about the prototype. And many wallets will still be healing from the holidays until after the new year.

I'm really hoping we can get a 2-piece aluminum case that integrates with a plate, to be available for purchase with the PCB for the group buy.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 19 November 2012, 21:43:49
That's when my wallet grows! Ah the joys of being young...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tipo33 on Mon, 19 November 2012, 22:17:25
I have less time than I thought....  I need to source some switches FAST......
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 19 November 2012, 22:44:57
There's always mouser if you're in a pinch, tipo33.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 19 November 2012, 23:11:08
Buy a cheap wyse PCB and I'll come solder with ya Ski. I want to try out this *****!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Mon, 19 November 2012, 23:22:10
Buy a cheap wyse PCB and I'll come solder with ya Ski. I want to try out this *****!

I've got one in the corner :p

I haven't decided yet if I want to use the possibly vintage blacks from it for the GH60, Blacks from my Filco, or Clears..
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 19 November 2012, 23:32:17
Nice part is you can change it later since we are using a phantom style plate. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Tue, 20 November 2012, 01:03:58
And I've got a phantom style plate on order for my Filco too :p

gonna be dialed in.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 20 November 2012, 05:02:18
Progress update: the keyboard is sending the letter 'o' on every keypress:D
Here's a bit of test I wrote with the board and a piece of wire: ooooo
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tipo33 on Tue, 20 November 2012, 06:32:42
Buy a cheap wyse PCB and I'll come solder with ya Ski. I want to try out this *****!
If you're serious I'm hitting eBay for a wyse board...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 20 November 2012, 06:59:02
Yeah if you don't mind blacks in your board. I'd love to come see this thing!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 20 November 2012, 09:30:01
Photos of the first working GH60 prototype:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iofr7j4p10b960c/Q61dxXH8X0

I created a separate thread just for beta testing the rev. A prototype: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570
When you get the boards, you can rave about what's wrong with it there;)
The boards are not error-free, unfortunately. Read more in the prototyping thread.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 20 November 2012, 09:40:33
Awesome!!!!!

2000 posts by the way:)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 20 November 2012, 09:44:33
Awesome!!!!!

2000 posts by the way:)
Congrats!:D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: i3oilermaker on Tue, 20 November 2012, 09:46:15
Congrats! I'm closing in on it too - when did you pass me! :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 20 November 2012, 10:00:06
When I saw you were almost to 2000, I started trolling a little...You totally detract from the OP and talk about your post count or something...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Tue, 20 November 2012, 10:00:12
Nice pics, komar!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acanthophis on Tue, 20 November 2012, 10:35:24
Photos look good!
Please make the PCB for the GB also in matt finish. It looks soo good :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: scoot on Tue, 20 November 2012, 22:55:37
Damn! I would be extremely damn interested in this. If and when this comes to fruition I will be on this like white on rice! This is quite impressive! xD
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 20 November 2012, 23:29:16
lol I like how iMav used his admin powers to edit the first post to add in his name.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 21 November 2012, 02:13:18
I noticed that yesterday, as well. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 21 November 2012, 08:05:12
This project came up in conversation and he was quite interested as you can see :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jspark on Wed, 21 November 2012, 08:11:18
Kormar, do you have any idea how much it is going to be? I'm really glad that you guys are heading forward to GB.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: osxoep on Wed, 21 November 2012, 08:13:18
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Excited.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sat, 24 November 2012, 19:44:25
Are the boards dispatched to beta testers yet?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 24 November 2012, 20:55:16
Not for at least another 2 weeks. This is Komar's PM to me a week or two ago:

The reset microswitches are supposed to come between the 26th of November and the 2nd of December.
Then I can send the boards and they should take up to 2 weeks to ship.

Regards,
komar007
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mm87 on Sun, 25 November 2012, 16:01:46
Will there be a way for us to get stabilizers + wires (especially for 7x spacebar) along with the PCBs or will we have to somehow source those ourselves?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sun, 25 November 2012, 16:21:08
Check with litster or alarcljs, not sure if they're willing to still make these. Getting a company to do it is very expensive. I might have to buy a wire bender to make these myself as well for a few upcoming KMACs anyways.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 25 November 2012, 17:39:21
we will probably need a few more people to buy wire benders for actual kitting. for the prototype, i think there are enough running around. frankly, it's not a large investment in money or time to bend a couple. the wire is available pretty much everywhere and inexpensive, and we can distribute a simple part number for the bender.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sun, 25 November 2012, 18:14:12
My wire Bender is a set of snub nosed pliers.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sun, 25 November 2012, 18:17:02
Accuracy and repeatability goes up with the right tools  ;)  The Cherry stab wires have tighter tolerances than Costar.  I find that the wire bender makes it a whole lot more likely that the 90 degree bends at either end wind up close to being in the same plane.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sun, 25 November 2012, 23:01:20
What about the WASD stabilizers?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: iMav on Mon, 26 November 2012, 04:27:34
I have extra stabilizer kits from the Poker DIY group buy...any idea if they will work?


And...OF COURSE I am interested in this project!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 26 November 2012, 06:35:04
Stabilizers from WASD (Costar) will work fine with the mounting plate once that is designed and produced. Stabilizers from the Poker DIY kit (Cherry) will also work fine, PCB mounted, with or without a mounting plate (would mount under the plate, as in KMAC, etc.). Of course, both those options are only workable for layout options with a 6.25-unit spacebar. If you want to use a 7-unit spacebar layout, you will have to bend your own spacebar stabilizer wire, or maybe we can convince alaricljs to do another round of wires for the group buy.

And thank you for your interest iMav. It's reassuring to have the official "seal of approval," as it were. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: iMav on Mon, 26 November 2012, 16:16:54
And thank you for your interest iMav. It's reassuring to have the official "seal of approval," as it were. :D
I don't always have the time to keep up on everything...but, believe me, you definitely have my support.

Great work!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 26 November 2012, 20:20:33
alaric has a reliable source of cherry stabs as well
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 26 November 2012, 20:47:50
Any 2x or larger key needs a Cherry PCB mount stab... since there is no plate design yet, that's the only option.  onlinecomponents.com sells what you need in regard to 2x stabs, no one we've found sells space bar size stabs.

1/16" wire and a proper wire bender and you can make your own. 
Digikey/Mouser/Onlinecomponents.com

Mouser's are all 2x plate mount.

OnlineComponents carries the 2x PCB mount.


Then you need to figure out what to do about the space bar.

use the 2x parts and have someone make a new wire like was done for the phantoms

We haven't discussed this previously... So yeah, need stabs ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: simkev on Thu, 29 November 2012, 04:25:44
Im very very interested
I mean, isnt this as sexy as it gets?
(http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q603/magicmeatballs/Private/DSC_0459_zpse6e56e3f.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: 7bit on Thu, 29 November 2012, 06:27:14
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/hypermicro-and-hypermini-keyboard-t4185.html
Thats been posted on GH before but I believe to be completely different than what were trying to accomplish.

The main difference will be plate-mount only and more layout options including matrix layout, symmetric stagger, 1/2-stagger (7bit) and 1/4 stager (HHKB Japanese), plus the possiblility to place LEDs into the switches (don't know yet if they can be traced or must be hand-wired).

Also, there will be larger and a smaller keyboards available, plus the group buy will not start before early 2013.


Oh, I forgot the Hyper thingies are plans for a full 104 keyboard with some sort of Alps. My bad!
So yeah, those two projects are so not alike!
Stupid me...
Nope, I did think of that, but currently no plans are made for that.


Thats not what im referring to I refering to that the GH60 is a community built project and that is and idea 7bit came up with to get rid of his extras...
Can't see where the Hyper is not a community keyboard-family. I added a lot of input from others already including microswitches and pointing stick.

Long talk short:

If you want a 5x15 keyboard in conventional layout any time soon, just get the GH60. Anybody else must wait.

:-)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vorn on Fri, 30 November 2012, 06:30:25
Long time voyer, first time poster - very keen!! Will be following this thread for details :)

Edit: Two please!!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: codymaust on Fri, 30 November 2012, 10:18:50
Long time voyer, first time poster - very keen!! Will be following this thread for details :)
Same. This thing is very promising!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 30 November 2012, 11:17:11
Welcome to Geekhack! x2
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 30 November 2012, 12:30:06
Well, beat me to it! Welcome to Wal...GeekHack!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vorn on Sun, 02 December 2012, 01:23:17
Okay.. just read all 32 pages of this thread :) Up to speed and very excited!

I'm new to keyboard construction, and there may be a better place to ask this question... but since using a plate seems to be optional, what are the advantages/disadvantages of using one? I know it seems to affect the mounting of the switches and therefore what stand-offs you use.

Also, from what I gather, the Poker cases I've seen around are typically in two pieces to allow for a plate. If no plate is being used I'm assuming I can get a single-piece aluminium case made and mount the PCB with screws from the bottom?

Great forum, great project! Very enthused!  ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tranquilite on Sun, 02 December 2012, 02:40:55
The plate is primarily for the stability of the switches. Cherry MX switches come in two varieties, plate mount, and PCB mount, where the only difference is that PCB mount switches have additional plastic pins on the underside of the switch which can be cut off to make them identical to platemount switches.

As for how the plate affects which kind of case you can get, I don't really know.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vorn on Sun, 02 December 2012, 03:40:16
Thanks for that! Once the GB for the board happens, I'll just see what other GH60 related GB's go down and make plans from there :) Just with all the customisation options I'm sure I'm not the only one battling to tame their excitement and ideas!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 02 December 2012, 09:25:44
I apologize in advance, as I am sure the definitive answer to this question is somewhere in the 32 pages above.

If I am interpreting the current version of the OP drawings correctly, the bottom row can be configured as 1.25 x3, 6.25, 1.25 x4 as on a normal ANSI layout.

I know there was controversy about this issue, but it appears to remain true on the OP.

Can I use the normal ANSI row with seven 1.25 mods and a normal spacebar?

Thanks in advance!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Sun, 02 December 2012, 09:43:43
I still want one of these, but there's just a part of my brain that's like "But you have a 60% in pieces already" because my pure has spend more time with switches disassembled and out of case than I've typed on it.  In fact, it's waiting for clears right now.

But dem 1.5 mods and a full right shift just look right.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 02 December 2012, 11:11:03
I apologize in advance, as I am sure the definitive answer to this question is somewhere in the 32 pages above.

If I am interpreting the current version of the OP drawings correctly, the bottom row can be configured as 1.25 x3, 6.25, 1.25 x4 as on a normal ANSI layout.

I know there was controversy about this issue, but it appears to remain true on the OP.

Can I use the normal ANSI row with seven 1.25 mods and a normal spacebar?

Thanks in advance!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Yes, bottom row can be configured as standard ANSI. That would be 1.25-1.25-1.25-6.25-1.25-1.25-1.25-1.25.

Also as 1.50 mods: 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5.

And as "lysol": 1.5-1.5-7-1.5-1-1-1.5.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: metafour on Sun, 02 December 2012, 11:50:22

Also as 1.50 mods: 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5.



Looking forward to this.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 11:55:57
And as "lysol": 1.5-1.5-7-1.5-1-1-1.5.
That's an intriguing layout...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 02 December 2012, 12:00:00
Yes, bottom row can be configured as standard ANSI. That would be 1.25-1.25-1.25-6.25-1.25-1.25-1.25-1.25.

Also as 1.50 mods: 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5.

And as "lysol": 1.5-1.5-7-1.5-1-1-1.5.

Thanks!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sun, 02 December 2012, 15:17:04
I like how the keys are on winkeyless 1800, but didn't want to loose having a Win key for desktop use and they all fit. It also let me use some of my vintage winkeyless Cherry set + 1x win and menu I have from 11900 and etc. I'm really glad it was included, and hope more people will find it good to use.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Alessandro on Sun, 02 December 2012, 15:53:24
After 32 pages, I am excited!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 02 December 2012, 16:11:58
I think some excitement has tapered, since this process takes a while. But I'm sure when the group buy gets going, there will be excitement a-plenty. :D

60% keyboard with customizable layouts and programmable controller...YES!

And AFAIK, the first 60% board with ISO layout as an option.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 16:20:58
Yep, still excited here!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: GMC on Sun, 02 December 2012, 16:22:14
Do we have a timeline for expectation? Want a 60% ISO. 8)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 16:24:06
You don't want this to turn into a R4 GH60 project?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Sun, 02 December 2012, 16:27:13
^^ GH60 2016? Lol
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 16:34:04
^^ GH60 2016? Lol
I'll be a sophomore in college by then... DEAR GOD NO!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:04:16
We are hoping for delivery in (early?) Q1 2013. Once the prototypes are tested, and revisions have been made, we can start the GB process. Plate design needs to be finalized, and drawings produced. Case design is something we are hoping for, but if it doesn't happen, we can still proceed, and use existing Poker cases.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:06:45
Make a KMAC type plate-case combo!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:08:17
Make a KMAC type plate-case combo!

That would be pretty ballin. Lets make the case out of the most dense metal possible.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:09:24
Well, as long as they release the files, I'm cool with it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:09:53
Looking for cheap machine shops atm. I have so many things I need to try and get produced. I have sheet-based designs and milled designs for both GH60 and Phantom. The ones for the Phantom is just because I use the area above the arrow cluster and neither Vortex's nor MKC's allowed for it.

On a side note, please make the plate stick out a bit from the PCB la korean customs. It enables far cheaper mounting solutions.

Edit: The GH60 case differs from the Poker ones based on a request that certain layouts will want to cover up parts, winkeyless etc., and thus require a top cover.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:10:11
Early 2013 may be enough time to get treble involved to CNC cases for us. Designs are finished for those and it can be out of one of many types of material.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:12:13
Early 2013 may be enough time to get treble involved to CNC cases for us. Designs are finished for those and it can be out of one of many types of material.

True. Hopefully his shop is up and running smoothly. But it's possible they'll be pretty back logged for awhile.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:13:22
Early 2013 may be enough time to get treble involved to CNC cases for us. Designs are finished for those and it can be out of one of many types of material.
Then we can have it powder coated too! The colors shall be ENDLESS!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:14:05
Early 2013 may be enough time to get treble involved to CNC cases for us. Designs are finished for those and it can be out of one of many types of material.

True. Hopefully his shop is up and running smoothly. But it's possible they'll be pretty back logged for awhile.

Entirely possible, but at least it's an easy avenue of possible case purchase.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:15:37
Early 2013 may be enough time to get treble involved to CNC cases for us. Designs are finished for those and it can be out of one of many types of material.
Then we can have it powder coated too! The colors shall be ENDLESS!

I have this weird feeling I'd end up having the raw polish/clear or the apple finish.  Or try to match the R4 sph blue.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:16:31
Early 2013 may be enough time to get treble involved to CNC cases for us. Designs are finished for those and it can be out of one of many types of material.
Then we can have it powder coated too! The colors shall be ENDLESS!

Well endless if we buy more colours/paint guns! I think kawa is looking for more advice on a colour to buy right now.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:18:18
Looking for cheap machine shops atm. I have so many things I need to try and get produced. I have sheet-based designs and milled designs for both GH60 and Phantom. The ones for the Phantom is just because I use the area above the arrow cluster and neither Vortex's nor MKC's allowed for it.

On a side note, please make the plate stick out a bit from the PCB la korean customs. It enables far cheaper mounting solutions.

Edit: The GH60 case differs from the Poker ones based on a request that certain layouts will want to cover up parts, winkeyless etc., and thus require a top cover.
Like this for a stick out?
(see next post)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:37:24
Looking for cheap machine shops atm. I have so many things I need to try and get produced. I have sheet-based designs and milled designs for both GH60 and Phantom. The ones for the Phantom is just because I use the area above the arrow cluster and neither Vortex's nor MKC's allowed for it.

On a side note, please make the plate stick out a bit from the PCB la korean customs. It enables far cheaper mounting solutions.

Edit: The GH60 case differs from the Poker ones based on a request that certain layouts will want to cover up parts, winkeyless etc., and thus require a top cover.
Like this for a stick out?
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/neBt1.jpg)



FTFY.

Yes, exactly like that. With a 2-piece case design.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:38:56
Thanks, how did you fix it? I thought I had everything formatted correctly...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 02 December 2012, 17:41:46
BBCode tags don't work for images hosted with Google Docs. I just reduced the size and uploaded it to my imgur account. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 02 December 2012, 22:05:57
Ah. I'll have to transfer the pictures I'd like to show to Picasa Web Albums then. I really need to start watermarking stuff too.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sun, 02 December 2012, 22:21:25
Lets get some cases made of Osmium!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Sun, 02 December 2012, 23:45:56
Gigabyte Aivia Osmium?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 03 December 2012, 00:14:47
No, well Osmium is the densest metal that is currently known to exist. I was mostly joking since it would be insanely expensive, cost more than platinum. Depleted Uranium would be a better choice.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tipo33 on Mon, 03 December 2012, 00:16:13
Make a KMAC type plate-case combo!

That would be pretty ballin. Lets make the case out of the most dense metal possible.
Lead?  lol,  no seriously.  I like metal stuff.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Mon, 03 December 2012, 00:24:12
Osmium it is!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 03 December 2012, 01:00:05
Wasnt best working on a stainless case? Id be interested in that.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gameaholic on Mon, 03 December 2012, 01:24:53
Will there be a cool phrase printed on the PCB like "Blessed be thee who double shoots perty plastics" on the phantom?  Is there an official geekhack motto?

(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26742.0;attach=2116;im)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 03 December 2012, 01:30:28
I prefer the one that says if you screw up it your fault.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 03 December 2012, 02:55:34
Wasnt best working on a stainless case? Id be interested in that.

Yes and no. It's hard to find a place that will mill steel
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 03 December 2012, 03:09:19
Wasnt best working on a stainless case? Id be interested in that.

Yes and no. It's hard to find a place that will mill steel
thought u were laser cutting or waterjetting
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 03 December 2012, 03:33:53
I think that was only for plates. The actual case has to be CNC, and to do it out of steel would be more expensive in material and time on the mill.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 03 December 2012, 03:42:45
lasering will leave serration on thicker materials and deflection outwards. Both need to be cleaned up on the mill. Plus it's really hard to design a case only using a laser, it's really limiting on what you can do without some mill work

(http://img1.UploadScreenshot.com/images/thumb/11/30617023737.jpg) (http://www.UploadScreenshot.com/image/1604182/9863021)


Thinner materials don't matter as much since they're thinner/it's less noticeable
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Batmann on Mon, 03 December 2012, 04:39:35
Do you think we'll be able to use IMSTO Poker case along with Beast plate?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 03 December 2012, 06:25:35
Do you think we'll be able to use IMSTO Poker case along with Beast plate?


That's certainly an option I think we want people to have. The ability to use the GH60 with a current Poker case, whether the stock plastic case, or an aluminium case from imsto, treble318, or oneproduct. Plate designs for this option will have to be made flush with the edges of the PCB, of course.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: PixelScript on Mon, 03 December 2012, 14:29:48
Very very interested! Sign me up!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 03 December 2012, 14:35:19
Very very interested! Sign me up!

No need to collect names of interested people any longer. We have more than enough interest to proceed. Keep an eye on this thread to find out the status of this project and when to expect a group buy.

And Welcome to Geekhack!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 03 December 2012, 15:16:16
I still want the files, which I'm sure Komar will release. Nonetheless, that is a HUGE driving point for me for this project. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 03 December 2012, 15:17:58
I still want the files, which I'm sure Komar will release. Nonetheless, that is a HUGE driving point for me for this project. :)
Which files do you want?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 03 December 2012, 15:21:02
The final Gerbers when you complete the final design. I have the gh60_reva.zip, so I don't need to worry about that, but if you were going to add the HHKB backspace etc, I was going to grab those files too.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 03 December 2012, 15:35:12
Sure. But first prototypes. I'm hoping to send them to WhiteFireDragon on Wednesday.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 03 December 2012, 15:38:21
Sweet deal. Thanks for the update Komar!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: PixelScript on Mon, 03 December 2012, 19:38:35
Very very interested! Sign me up!

No need to collect names of interested people any longer. We have more than enough interest to proceed. Keep an eye on this thread to find out the status of this project and when to expect a group buy.

And Welcome to Geekhack!

Awesome, ill keep my eye on the thread.

Thanks for the welcome :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Mon, 03 December 2012, 19:42:49
Do we have some final dimensions on the plates?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 03 December 2012, 19:53:41
Do we have some final dimensions on the plates?

Dis so I can do a final drawing w/ dimensions + tolerances
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 03 December 2012, 20:46:25
Me too! I'd love to do some CAD work for my own personal case:)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 03 December 2012, 20:49:43
From the PCB holes, we should already know all possible layouts. You can actually design all different plates right now since every key must be a certain distance apart from center to center. Just calculate it. That's how I designed my plate, and only used a physical keyboard to verify the measurements afterwards. But as far as designing the plate first, you don't actually need a keyboard or this prototype PCB.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Mon, 03 December 2012, 21:45:37
That gives the approximate dimensions of the plate, not accounting for shinanigans along the edges or the amount of clearance there will be around the edges.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 03 December 2012, 22:14:09
But if you are designing a case, you design it with an integrated plate.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 03 December 2012, 22:36:29
wfd, can you please start getting shipping logistics ready so we can get these prototypes on the grill quickly?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Mon, 03 December 2012, 23:07:20
wfd, can you please start getting shipping logistics ready so we can get these prototypes on the grill quickly?

Are you referring to his Phantom Plate GB?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 03 December 2012, 23:49:55
That gives the approximate dimensions of the plate, not accounting for shinanigans along the edges or the amount of clearance there will be around the edges.

The switch distances between each other are conserved no matter what form factor the keyboard is. Even rubber domes use this standard spacing. As for the outer edges of the plate, the left and right side should be the calculated standard 0.375" from switch center to edge, and the top/bottom edge is 0.350" from switch center to edge. If the GH60 PCB turns out to be any different than this, then it will not be a perfect fit in the stock poker case. Likewise, if the plate edges are any larger than what I mentioned, it won't fit with current poker cases.



But if you are designing a case, you design it with an integrated plate.

Well I see 2 options to design the plates. One option is to make it like Beast's current poker plate, in which case the PCB does all the support from the standoffs at the bottom, which the plate only prevents flexing (and makes it feel more solid). A plate like this allows you to use stock poker/pure plastic cases, oneproduct's, imsto's, and trebs' existing cases. The 2nd option is to design the plate similar to KMAC, where there are tabs on the plate that does all the support in holding up the plate and PCB. If you make a plate like this, then everyone will be forced to also get a custom case to go along with it because it won't be compatible with stock and current aluminum cases.



wfd, can you please start getting shipping logistics ready so we can get these prototypes on the grill quickly?

What do you want me to really do? komar hasn't even gotten all the parts yet to ship all prototype stuff to me. I guess I can start looking at shipping supplies, but hard to estimate and ask for shipping money until I get the stuff.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Tue, 04 December 2012, 00:27:53
But if you are designing a case, you design it with an integrated plate.

Well I see 2 options to design the plates. One option is to make it like Beast's current poker plate, in which case the PCB does all the support from the standoffs at the bottom, which the plate only prevents flexing (and makes it feel more solid). A plate like this allows you to use stock poker/pure plastic cases, oneproduct's, imsto's, and trebs' existing cases. The 2nd option is to design the plate similar to KMAC, where there are tabs on the plate that does all the support in holding up the plate and PCB. If you make a plate like this, then everyone will be forced to also get a custom case to go along with it because it won't be compatible with stock and current aluminum cases.

Do both
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 04 December 2012, 01:20:23
Can someone help me with a plate design? I haven't got the hang of the software yet and was going to layer acrylic as litster does with the ergodox
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mkawa on Tue, 04 December 2012, 07:58:03
What do you want me to really do? komar hasn't even gotten all the parts yet to ship all prototype stuff to me. I guess I can start looking at shipping supplies, but hard to estimate and ask for shipping money until I get the stuff.
overestimate. you know the approximate dimensions so 1.5x and go. it's cool if our reshipping costs are a little suboptimal. THE POWER OF GRAYSKULL IS IN YOUR HANDS WFD
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 04 December 2012, 08:17:22
But if you are designing a case, you design it with an integrated plate.

Well I see 2 options to design the plates. One option is to make it like Beast's current poker plate, in which case the PCB does all the support from the standoffs at the bottom, which the plate only prevents flexing (and makes it feel more solid). A plate like this allows you to use stock poker/pure plastic cases, oneproduct's, imsto's, and trebs' existing cases. The 2nd option is to design the plate similar to KMAC, where there are tabs on the plate that does all the support in holding up the plate and PCB. If you make a plate like this, then everyone will be forced to also get a custom case to go along with it because it won't be compatible with stock and current aluminum cases.

Do both

This.  We've got plates cheap enough that worrying about quantity limits is a little silly.  There are going to be enough people that want either (or even both).  There is no point in compromising case design.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 04 December 2012, 08:52:10
WFD, You should be able to fit everything in a medium flat rate box. Simply add a small handling and materials fee, and ask everyone to send payment for shipping. Should make for a quick turnaround on your part.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 04 December 2012, 13:27:19
This is a list of everyone getting a prototype board. Did I miss anyone?

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glissant on Tue, 04 December 2012, 13:35:35
In before someone says "Me" for jokes.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 04 December 2012, 14:48:23
Me!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 04 December 2012, 17:13:18
This is a list of everyone getting a prototype board. Did I miss anyone?

  • komar007
  • jdcarpe
  • kmiller8
  • TheProfosist
  • WhiteFireDragon
  • lysol
  • __red__
  • dirge
  • Index
  • hasu
  • kravlin
  • engicoder
  • modulor
  • tipo33
  • TheQsanity
  • mkawa_
There's also nebo.
Remove me, you won't ship to me:D
And you can also remove hasu and dirge, I'll ship to them directly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 04 December 2012, 19:40:56
I'd like to get a hint as to how many people are interested in Cherry stabilizers for this (or other) project.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Tue, 04 December 2012, 19:43:57
Since my Poker is "co-star" I wouldn't mind a cherry but it really is kind of the same to me :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 04 December 2012, 19:44:31
Well, I definitely need some more. Esp 7x bent wires.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 04 December 2012, 19:45:59
I'd like to get a hint as to how many people are interested in Cherry stabilizers for this (or other) project.

I am!  I am!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  But not, repeat not in 1 11/16" spacing like the dang Leopold!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mm87 on Tue, 04 December 2012, 19:58:01
I'd like to get a hint as to how many people are interested in Cherry stabilizers for this (or other) project.

Definitely interested in few sets of stabs + spacebar wires.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: esoomenona on Tue, 04 December 2012, 22:42:30
Well, I definitely need some more. Esp 7x bent wires.
^ plus others here.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Wed, 05 December 2012, 02:43:53
Well, I definitely need some more. Esp 7x bent wires.

I would do it, but I can't get litsters wire bender in the UK.  Happy to pass the money on if someone can get the goods for me. :)

Du-Bro E/Z Bender (0-90 degrees and Z bend)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vorn on Wed, 05 December 2012, 02:44:27
I need to get EVERYTHING still. Stabilizers, PCB mount switches, plate, caps...

I refresh this thread as well as the GB every day ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: KennyR on Wed, 05 December 2012, 04:33:42
I need to get EVERYTHING still. Stabilizers, PCB mount switches, plate, caps...

I refresh this thread as well as the GB every day ;D

Are you me?  ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glissant on Wed, 05 December 2012, 04:51:44
Say what? The group buy is up already? Where?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 05 December 2012, 04:54:44
Say what? The group buy is up already? Where?
No were are talking about the proto boards you still need everything for them as you would a full board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glissant on Wed, 05 December 2012, 05:03:09
I refresh this thread as well as the GB every day ;D

Is what I was refering to :).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 05 December 2012, 05:08:12
I refresh this thread as well as the GB every day ;D

Is what I was refering to :).
there shouldnt be a GB thread yet... and a quick search in the GB section revealed nothing...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 05 December 2012, 10:20:42
I'll take on an Acrylic case design and prototype fab.

I'll use the drawings unless anyone wants to pass a spot on the prototype list...

If so, please let me know!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 05 December 2012, 10:26:01
Thanks, sam! You could also use dimensions from the Poker PCB and case, since compatibility with that is a design goal.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Wed, 05 December 2012, 10:47:15
So just to recap;

Komar is printing PCBs
Beast is making plates
alaricljs is making stabilizers
Sam is making acrylic cases, and other cases already exist (where to find?)

All that's left is switches and keys, right?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Wed, 05 December 2012, 10:54:25
I'll be doing a proto acrylic case if I can get some confirmation on whether the phantom switch spacing is correct on this project.  I "think" it is, just need to know for sure before I get anything made.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:00:30
GH60 custom (DIY) keyboard recap:

1. Komar007 designed the PCB and is having them printed. He has had a prototype run done, which is being distributed for testing. Once that is tested, and the final revisions made, the GB will proceed.
2. The_Beast will be having [some number of] plate designs made. Probably about 8 designs, to include ANSI winkey, ANSI winkeyless, ISO winkey, and ISO winkeyless. If we have case-integrated designs and stand-alone designs for those, that makes 8 plate designs for a base run. And I'm sure he will take requests for custom plates, such as lysol's bottom row.
3. alaricljs is *maybe* doing another stabilizer buy. He is gauging interest. On a related note, if you choose a winkey layout, and use plate mounted Costar stabilizers, you can get those from WASDkeybaords.com all day.
4. samwisekoi has offered to help with designing an acrylic case. WhiteFireDragon, The_Beast, damorgue and dirge are also working on case designs. As are others. If you want to use an existing case, our goal is that this PCB will fit in any current Poker/Pure case. Including the aluminum ones made by imsto, treble318, oneproduct, and Duck.

You must install your own switches and keycaps.

I'll add this info to the OP.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:04:55
Y I NO ON #4?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:06:21
Y I NO ON #4?

Least you're not totally invisible :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:06:51
Y I NO ON #4?

Sorry, my memory fails sometimes. I'll edit.

Edit: But I did say, "As are others," to cover my bases there. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:07:10
I'll be doing a proto acrylic case if I can get some confirmation on whether the phantom switch spacing is correct on this project.  I "think" it is, just need to know for sure before I get anything made.

Let's coordinate so we don't run over each other's everyone else's work.  Are you thinking flashy, industrial, minimalist, or some other adjective I haven't thought about?

(Perhaps we should Skype or something.)

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:08:32
Y I NO ON #4?

Sorry, my memory fails sometimes. I'll edit.

Edit: But I did say, "As are others," to cover my bases there. :D

you're a poop face


take that -_-
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:09:14
So just to recap;

Komar is printing PCBs
Beast is making plates
Alajarcls is making stabilizers
Sam is making acrylic cases, and other cases already exist (where to find?)

All that's left is switches and keys, right?
That's cool, switches and keycaps are abundant.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:10:14
Mybe add iysols design in op?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:13:28
I want stainless Steel Case!!!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:14:00
Mybe add iysols design in op?

Blue outlines in third image (komar's).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:16:31
We should make a wiki page for the group buy. I can make that, or Ron can make a wiki account for you JDCarpe. Either way, my wiki skills are as below in my signature... Some of it is Moose's, but I can do all of what he has done to make a nice GB page.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:18:08
We should make a wiki page for the group buy. I can make that, or Ron can make a wiki account for you JDCarpe. Either way, my wiki skills are as below in my signature... Some of it is Moose's, but I can do all of what he has done to make a nice GB page.

That would be great if you can make one, SmallFry. Thanks!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:20:32
Yeah, I'll get on that!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:24:21
Wiki account created for user "Jdcarpe".

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:24:40
BTW, for those of you who are not familiar with soldering I will provide a switch soldering service.
I'll also order the switches, so you can have a working keyboard (as in 'with switches') shipped if you want.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:30:54
Thank you for the detailed recap.

So for cases, as of right now if we want any of the existing cases, our only chance is finding it used, correct?

As for Sams question on style of case, I personally am a minimalist.
I really like the red in this case, courtesy of DanGWang
(http://i.imgur.com/UcNE8.jpg)

Although I'm not a fan of the glossy top, but maybe make three seperate pieces, so we can mix and match the center sandwich with the outer "breads"
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Wed, 05 December 2012, 11:33:41
fl0w3n it's a litster layered acrylic case made for the phantom.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Wed, 05 December 2012, 12:02:43
Yes I was suggesting a style for the to-be-made gh60 acrylic cases.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 05 December 2012, 12:04:47
Preliminary wiki page is up, based on the Phantom wiki at Deskthority. Please feel free to take over from here, SmallFry. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 05 December 2012, 12:06:14
I want stainless Steel Case!!!

It would weight more than an SSK but I don't know of any places to have it milled. If I could, I would, but I can't so I shan't


But I'll still look into it if I haz the time
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 05 December 2012, 12:14:28
Ok then.  I'll go for a post-apocalyptic industrial look.

A design for spherical keycaps, perhaps.

Cheers!

 - Ron
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Wed, 05 December 2012, 12:47:13
I've been playing with C++:GTK+ for a possible gui (and minimal installation weight) for programming boards. I don't have a lot done, but I figure I should make my prototype worth something to someone.

Edit: I'm also willing to work with other software/languages. I'm just trying to find something that works on multiple operating systems. If I only had to program for windows, Visual C# makes building guis a snap.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Thu, 06 December 2012, 02:02:56
How about make a GUI for windows first, then other OS later  ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vorn on Thu, 06 December 2012, 06:31:49
Speaking of "look and feel", I've always thought it would be amazing to have a keycap set made like that of the OP-1 by Teenage Engineering

(http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/teenage-engineering-op-1-2.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 06 December 2012, 06:44:36
BTW, for those of you who are not familiar with soldering I will provide a switch soldering service.
I'll also order the switches, so you can have a working keyboard (as in 'with switches') shipped if you want.
can i provide for final version as well?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Thu, 06 December 2012, 11:07:46
How about make a GUI for windows first, then other OS later  ;)

Because if I actually get off my lazy ass and write the whole thing, I don't want to be maintaining code in 3 different languages for 3 different operating systems.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Turbinia on Fri, 07 December 2012, 06:42:31
Very interested in this project, Make the GUI in Java, then it works on all the OSs. Kinda past the stuff I could help with. If any CAD/PCB or coding still needs doing I offer my services, being what they are.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 07 December 2012, 08:19:07
Java's a mess, no?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: DrSchlock on Fri, 07 December 2012, 08:49:29
I am quite interested in this and am willing to contribute in any way needed. I can solder and write software if needed.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: codymaust on Fri, 07 December 2012, 09:26:06
I could potentially help with the software as well
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jspark on Fri, 07 December 2012, 11:03:18
I also could help with the software if needed.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Fri, 07 December 2012, 13:04:44
Very interested in this project, Make the GUI in Java, then it works on all the OSs. Kinda past the stuff I could help with. If any CAD/PCB or coding still needs doing I offer my services, being what they are.

People were talking about the software online a couple pages ago. There was a decision not to use java purely because the JVM is a security threat. (I understand, I think they're crazy but I understand). I can do GUIs in java and C# easily, but I haven't touched GTK in about 2 years.

As for software, I'll start a github sometime in the next day or two with whatever I have lying around and anyone can contribute. I planned on open sourcing whatever i wrote anyways, so a github repo is free.

If we want to change the language or what toolkit we're using, just decide on something, I'm doing this to make myself a better programmer on top of wanting to help out, so I'll try anything.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: BiNiaRiS on Fri, 07 December 2012, 14:22:37
is there going to have to be another round of prototyping and testing? or is this nearing the ordering stage?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 07 December 2012, 14:36:16
is there going to have to be another round of prototyping and testing? or is this nearing the ordering stage?

First prototypes aren't in testers' hands yet. komar was waiting on components to arrive. WFD will be doing some SMD soldering and distributing US protos. I doubt we will need another proto round. I think komar is confident he can fix things in the next revision for a production run.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Fri, 07 December 2012, 14:47:42
WFD is doing the prototype SMD work?
WFD - you can just forward mine on :-)  I find SMD soldering meditative.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 07 December 2012, 14:48:38
So the GH60 GB will be starting in __________?????
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 07 December 2012, 14:53:29
So the GH60 GB will be starting in __________?????

Yes
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 07 December 2012, 14:56:35
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/images/300x/2747096.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Fri, 07 December 2012, 15:28:00
Komar just sent me all the US proto boards today. He gave me a list of who they're for, so I'll be sending PMs out soon. I have finals and a seminar to prepare for this upcoming week, so I'll take care of these little things afterwards.


WFD is doing the prototype SMD work?
WFD - you can just forward mine on :-)  I find SMD soldering meditative.

Most people that wanted the proto boards don't have SMD equipment. I'll have to see if using hot air rework station or hand soldering is faster. Probably hot air for the controller and capacitors, and hand soldering for the diode since they're so spaced out. I'll send yours out untouched.

You guys are on your own for switch soldering unless you send them to me.


So the GH60 GB will be starting in __________? ??? ?

Probably ~2 weeks for me to get all the prototype boards, a couple days for me to solder and repackage, and a couple more days for you guys to get it. A week or two to test and give feedback, and/or design cases and different layout plates. Assuming there are no other delays, my guess is mid January is when the real GB can start.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: BiNiaRiS on Fri, 07 December 2012, 17:51:41
sorry for all the questions, i've been ignoring this thread hoping it just happens, haha.

but are the final PCBs going to be ready to go? or will they require SMD hot air soldering?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 07 December 2012, 17:54:34
If the PCB shop can do pick and place for a reasonable cost, I think we are planning to do that. For a small run of prototypes, it didn't make sense cost-wise.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 07 December 2012, 19:23:59
So the GH60 GB will be starting in __________? ??? ?
Probably ~2 weeks  for me to get all the prototype boards, a couple days for me to solder and repackage, and a couple more days for you guys to get it. A week or two to test and give feedback, and/or design cases and different layout plates. Assuming there are no other delays, my guess is mid January is when the real GB can start.

From happy to sad in under 2 sec
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Fri, 07 December 2012, 19:25:52
So the GH60 GB will be starting in __________? ??? ?
Probably ~2 weeks...

From happy to sad in under 2 sec

haha then just delete the rest of that post, like that ^
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: BiNiaRiS on Fri, 07 December 2012, 19:35:40
If the PCB shop can do pick and place for a reasonable cost, I think we are planning to do that. For a small run of prototypes, it didn't make sense cost-wise.

I think most people here would appreciate that, even if it adds cost to it. I have never done SMD work so I wouldn't want to attempt it on my own probably.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 07 December 2012, 19:39:16
SMD isn't bad, just need some flux. :) Either way, having the fabricator do it for us would be nice.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Fri, 07 December 2012, 20:32:47
When mine arrive I'll video the soldering.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Turbinia on Fri, 07 December 2012, 22:35:24
What is the cost estimate like on peoples case designs? I priced out a quick protoype 3d printed one and it is between 100-200 dollars depending on the fab. Will there be a group buy together with the pcbs for some aluminum poker/pure cases? Any chance at some pbt lasered or dyesubbed for the kits, though its probably easier for most of us to source our own keycaps.

And why the security concerns on a keyboard controller with Java?

How is the firmware setup, I didn't catch that on the OP. It is the same chip as the teensy, you just get the ISP and flash the thing with the firmware for teensy, that is supper easy to program layouts in teensyduino.

Not squishing a dip switch in the poker spot on that thing? Well i guess you don't really need it if it is programmable.

Good luck to all the prototypers. I think I am going to need a few of these boards to play with all the layouts =P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Fri, 07 December 2012, 23:29:13
What is the cost estimate like on peoples case designs? I priced out a quick protoype 3d printed one and it is between 100-200 dollars depending on the fab. Will there be a group buy together with the pcbs for some aluminum poker/pure cases? Any chance at some pbt lasered or dyesubbed for the kits, though its probably easier for most of us to source our own keycaps.

And why the security concerns on a keyboard controller with Java?

How is the firmware setup, I didn't catch that on the OP. It is the same chip as the teensy, you just get the ISP and flash the thing with the firmware for teensy, that is supper easy to program layouts in teensyduino.

Not squishing a dip switch in the poker spot on that thing? Well i guess you don't really need it if it is programmable.

Good luck to all the prototypers. I think I am going to need a few of these boards to play with all the layouts =P

It's not the keyboard. It's the programmer. The JVM has a couple of security holes and in order to run the programmer with java you need the JVM.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: nevin on Sat, 08 December 2012, 00:30:20
very exciting. great work everyone! can't wait.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sat, 08 December 2012, 00:33:04
What is the cost estimate like on peoples case designs? I priced out a quick protoype 3d printed one and it is between 100-200 dollars depending on the fab. Will there be a group buy together with the pcbs for some aluminum poker/pure cases? Any chance at some pbt lasered or dyesubbed for the kits, though its probably easier for most of us to source our own keycaps.

And why the security concerns on a keyboard controller with Java?

How is the firmware setup, I didn't catch that on the OP. It is the same chip as the teensy, you just get the ISP and flash the thing with the firmware for teensy, that is supper easy to program layouts in teensyduino.

Not squishing a dip switch in the poker spot on that thing? Well i guess you don't really need it if it is programmable.

Good luck to all the prototypers. I think I am going to need a few of these boards to play with all the layouts =P

I haven't gotten a quote for my case but I'm hoping around $150
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 08 December 2012, 03:00:47
Well it seems I have nothing left to say here, everything has been said.
I've had my preliminary thesis presentation and other university stuff going on recently, so I'm sorry for the delays.
Packages to other parts of the world will be sent today or on Monday.
I've broken something in the recent versions of the firmware and it stopped working in windows:D. I hope I'll fix it by the time you get the prototypes.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 08 December 2012, 03:47:04
komar, you've done all the "heavy lifting" to this point. We certainly don't mind stepping in to answer a few questions and keep the thread updated. Thank you for all your hard work on this project so far.

WFD, as things move into your court with the prototypes, I want to thank you, as well, for your help moving this project along.

Don't forget that this is a community project, and our community will make this project a success! Ask for help if you need it, and don't be afraid to jump in if you have something to contribute.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 09 December 2012, 13:31:23
How is this as an ANSI layout for a 60% keyboard?  My goals were to retain as much normal positioning as possible, retain the TKL keys in as close to normal orientation as I could, and keep the 2nd and 3rd layer keys on the right hand.  The exception was the extra delete on the left, included only for the Ctrl-Alt-Del key combination.

I also wanted to reduce the scope of the layers as much as possible.

One change I made from (e.g.) the Poker, was to enable the arrow keys without disabling the Right_Shift key.

Thought, opinions and/or observations?

Thanks in advance,

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Batmann on Sun, 09 December 2012, 13:36:43
this looks like an efficient layout,
way better than the poker one
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: noxwood on Sun, 09 December 2012, 20:58:29
No super/win key, whatsoever? I don't know how wise of a choice that is.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sun, 09 December 2012, 21:55:51
I would lose the caps lock to something like Fn+Shift and use the Caps as a 2nd Fn.  Then you can use Fn2 and your arrow keys for win/menu mods if you need and of course plenty of space seeing as it'll be a 3rd layer.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Mon, 10 December 2012, 01:29:01
You know what would be cool? A toggle for toggling spacebars? Anyone get it? I don't think I heard of this before.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 10 December 2012, 05:15:32
:confused:
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: DrSchlock on Mon, 10 December 2012, 06:48:09
That would make a good prank gift :) Better yet, a toggle that causes the space bar to disable randomly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: modulor on Mon, 10 December 2012, 10:16:47
WFD is doing the prototype SMD work?
WFD - you can just forward mine on :-)  I find SMD soldering meditative.

Most people that wanted the proto boards don't have SMD equipment. I'll have to see if using hot air rework station or hand soldering is faster. Probably hot air for the controller and capacitors, and hand soldering for the diode since they're so spaced out. I'll send yours out untouched.

You guys are on your own for switch soldering unless you send them to me.


Thanks WFD for assisting in the SMD work - I'm pretty competent at through-hole soldering, so switches will be a breeze, but I have no experience in SMD work (nor the tools).  I'll happily compensate you for your time and efforts!   ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 10 December 2012, 15:32:08
this looks like an efficient layout,
way better than the poker one

Thanks very much.

No super/win key, whatsoever? I don't know how wise of a choice that is.

Well, normally I use a Model M and Linux, so I have neither key, but I accept that they are useful in other circumstances.

So an easy addition in keeping with the design goals is to add "Win" and "Menu" to the lower-right 1.25 mod key.

I would lose the caps lock to something like Fn+Shift and use the Caps as a 2nd Fn.  Then you can use Fn2 and your arrow keys for win/menu mods if you need and of course plenty of space seeing as it'll be a 3rd layer.

I like this conceptually, but I need to ponder it more.  Moving lock is fine, although I'd probably want to make it Fn-Right_Shift so it isn't a double-finger stroke.

I had been avoiding remapping the Shift keys because sometimes things like AHK or xmodmap can conflict with the keyboard controller.  I had to go through that to remap Scroll_Lock to VolDn and it was annoying.

Thanks for the input y'all!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 10 December 2012, 15:41:34
I like this conceptually, but I need to ponder it more.  Moving lock is fine, although I'd probably want to make it Fn-Right_Shift so it isn't a double-finger stroke.

That's exactly how I  have it set up, it is an extreme rarity that I have a use for CapsLock.  With the right firmware you can also do interesting things like have Fn plus your default arrow locations map to mouse-keys.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 10 December 2012, 16:19:49
I use caps lock for a 2nd layer at work all the time for autocad commands. Like caps + M = match properties, caps + t = trim, caps + l = lock layer......


It's super handy and saves me soooo much time. I also have another script that turns caps lock on when autocad is the main window and turns it off when it's not the main window. Super nice so I don't have to remember to not scream at people in emails
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 10 December 2012, 16:22:47
I use caps lock for a 2nd layer at work all the time for autocad commands. Like caps + M = match properties, caps + t = trim, caps + l = lock layer......


It's super handy and saves me soooo much time. I also have another script that turns caps lock on when autocad is the main window and turns it off when it's not the main window. Super nice so I don't have to remember to not scream at people in emails

OK, thanks, and I have to say that your final sentence actually made me laugh out loud.  Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[edit] I need something like that for when I switch from a coding window to an IM window. [/edit]
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 10 December 2012, 16:40:37
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3wfvat9bdcerwnd/Disable%20Capslock.ahk
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3u9nhh59slp6jhs/Caps%20Lock%20Fn%20Layer.ahk

Those are the Autohotkey scripts. The "Disable Capslock" disables caps lock, sets caps lock on when in AutoCAD and allows you to shift + capslock to turn it on manual in any program, open this one first. The "Caps Lock Fn Layer" is where you put all the codes for the capslock layer. Right now, it's just caps + 1 = F1...... it's really simple to edit and I'm sure there is a lot that could be done.


Both of these scripts will be useless once the GH60 comes out, but until then......
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: GMC on Mon, 10 December 2012, 16:57:01
I use caps lock for a 2nd layer at work all the time for autocad commands. Like caps + M = match properties, caps + t = trim, caps + l = lock layer......


It's super handy and saves me soooo much time. I also have another script that turns caps lock on when autocad is the main window and turns it off when it's not the main window. Super nice so I don't have to remember to not scream at people in emails

I feel very low tech. I rarely use capslock and used to get frustrated by occasionally knocking it on and typing in caps, nowadays the first thing I do on windows is change the capslock cancellation to be done by pressing shift.  Start a new sentence with a shifted capital letter and capslock is gone...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: metalliqaz on Mon, 10 December 2012, 17:02:38
How is this as an ANSI layout for a 60% keyboard? 

Make the order of the arrows Vim  (http://www.catonmat.net/blog/why-vim-uses-hjkl-as-arrow-keys/)style! :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rknize on Mon, 10 December 2012, 17:07:58
this looks like an efficient layout,
way better than the poker one

I find the Poker's approach to nav keys to be intuitive.  Perhaps that works for me because I rarely use the right mods and find the nav keys by feel.  Anyway, this flexibility is the beauty of a customizable firmware.

I can solder SMD just fine, but would pay to have pick and place done in the interest of time.  That's alotta diodes.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 10 December 2012, 17:10:03
How is this as an ANSI layout for a 60% keyboard? 
beige/green

Make the order of the arrows Vim  (http://www.catonmat.net/blog/why-vim-uses-hjkl-as-arrow-keys/)style! :)

 I would have done, except then I can't use the ?/ key as the up arrow in a normal inverted T.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Tranquilite on Mon, 10 December 2012, 18:55:27
I just realized that I already have everything I need to build one of these, though I may need to bend my own space bar wire. Put me down as highly interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Sai on Tue, 11 December 2012, 01:36:57
I am interested in this ! although i'll need somebody to assemble all the parts to make it into a keyboard.   ^-^ please forgive my noobness. :D :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 11 December 2012, 07:56:38
I'll assemble it if you'd like. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: naisanza on Tue, 11 December 2012, 08:03:05
Definitely, interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Sai on Tue, 11 December 2012, 08:05:46
I'll assemble it if you'd like. :)

haha. I already asked WDF to do it for me.  :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Germiphene on Tue, 11 December 2012, 12:31:17
Hey I'm interested in this kit!  Putting together a keyboard is very appealing to me.  My other hobby is building Guitar tube amplifiers, so It'd be nice to break out my soldering iron for this.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 11 December 2012, 14:01:57
Hey I'm interested in this kit!  Putting together a keyboard is very appealing to me.  My other hobby is building Guitar tube amplifiers, so It'd be nice to break out my soldering iron for this.

less chance of electrifying yourself with 5v too! ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Germiphene on Tue, 11 December 2012, 16:59:48
Hey I'm interested in this kit!  Putting together a keyboard is very appealing to me.  My other hobby is building Guitar tube amplifiers, so It'd be nice to break out my soldering iron for this.

less chance of electrifying yourself with 5v too! ;)

Yes quite true!  no need to work with one hand behind you back.  Now thats annoying! lol
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: zhuangqdcn on Wed, 12 December 2012, 16:28:59
Interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Permeability on Wed, 12 December 2012, 16:53:33
What kind of tools would I need if I were interested in building this? thanks!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 12 December 2012, 17:17:05
You will need soldering equipment to solder the switches to the PCB. Besides that, a screwdriver to fix the PCB to the case.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Thu, 13 December 2012, 01:58:14
Ok. So people wanted copies of the stuff I'm fiddling with when it comes to graphical user interfaces. I don't have a lot due to my arch installation having some issues until tonight, but I'm still planning on sitting here and working with it.

All it does right now is create a window with a basic menu in it, and it's supposed to create 5 lines of 15 buttons (approx the size of the keyboard), but I'm having issues getting that to work (dynamic creation of buttons is interestingly difficult). I'm gonna keep playing with it either way.

I have some plans on it, so if you're interested in working with it, you can catch me either here, or on the IRC channel pretty much all day (Much to their regret.) so feel free to hit me up.

GitHub: https://github.com/kravlin/Gh60Prog

-Krav
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Thu, 13 December 2012, 03:32:43
You may want to work together with alaricljs: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35322.0
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Thu, 13 December 2012, 03:44:18
I'll definitely look into it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Thu, 13 December 2012, 19:21:35
It probably won't be another week or two until I get all the prototype boards, but in the meantime I'm looking at packaging stuff right now. Do you guys want to play it safe and have shipped inside ESD bags? The bare PCB itself don't need it, but there will be controllers and other things on there that might benefit from antistatic wrappings. And for the actual shipping, do you prefer $5.50 by USPS flat rate envelopes or $11 medium priority box? It will fit in envelopes fine, but do not have much bend or padding protection. Box cost more but won't bend and has buffer space inside for rough handling.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 13 December 2012, 19:41:34
How about get some of these  (http://www.sleevecityusa.com/Ultimate-LP-Record-Mailer-10-Pack-p/3mlr13wht.htm)and just ship them first class?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 13 December 2012, 20:07:22
I'd prefer a Med FRB, personally. Just to be safe.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Thu, 13 December 2012, 20:12:15
I'd recommend the box.  The envelope risks the pcb being snapped in transit.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 13 December 2012, 22:12:20
Be careful even with boxes...
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/14/puqaze2a.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Thu, 13 December 2012, 23:36:38
Imagine what that box would look like if it was just an envelope.

I've seen worst from boxes though. I ordered a Rosewill KB from newegg one time, and the box got so beat up and damaged that the keyboard just completely fell out during transit. The UPS guy was still stupid enough to deliver me an empty box and thought that was perfectly fine.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 14 December 2012, 02:34:05
Write something like "FRAGILE" all over it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: korne on Fri, 14 December 2012, 03:09:56
I'm very interested on this proyect!

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Rinsaku on Fri, 14 December 2012, 03:14:04
Nice, count me in!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 14 December 2012, 03:28:15
It probably won't be another week or two until I get all the prototype boards, but in the meantime I'm looking at packaging stuff right now. Do you guys want to play it safe and have shipped inside ESD bags? The bare PCB itself don't need it, but there will be controllers and other things on there that might benefit from antistatic wrappings. And for the actual shipping, do you prefer $5.50 by USPS flat rate envelopes or $11 medium priority box? It will fit in envelopes fine, but do not have much bend or padding protection. Box cost more but won't bend and has buffer space inside for rough handling.
For those who want to solder themselves, the components are already in ESD-safe bags. So you may want to put only the soldered boards into bigger ones, but I'm not sure this is necessary.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: aggiejy on Fri, 14 December 2012, 14:20:52
I'm game for this
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: estux on Sat, 15 December 2012, 14:28:16
PCB + Case + Switches + Keycaps = ???

How much will be the estimated budget for this? I would love to have one of those DIY keyboards.

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tradet on Sat, 15 December 2012, 14:39:03
Interested.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Loligagger on Sat, 15 December 2012, 14:40:30
PCB + Case + Switches + Keycaps = ???

How much will be the estimated budget for this? I would love to have one of those DIY keyboards.

Probably around $200 with the case, caps, switches, etc included.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 15 December 2012, 15:09:45
PCB + Case + Switches + Keycaps = ???

How much will be the estimated budget for this? I would love to have one of those DIY keyboards.



All depends on how you want to build it. If you want the PCB ($35?) + a plate ($25) + a new aluminum case ($120) + new switches ($40) + new DS keycaps ($60) = $280.

Budget build with PCB mounting of switches, with no plate, used stock plastic Poker/Pure case, salvaged switches and keycaps, you could probably build one for around $100-150.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 15 December 2012, 15:21:10
I am in about $30 + pcb cost (I traded some switches for the pcb so it is like free to me) for my prototype. $20 plastic stock Pure case, $10 for a G80-11900HRMUS (was NIB too) I'm stealing the switches and caps from. Shop smart, and with some luck it dosen't have to cost very much at all.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 15 December 2012, 15:26:22
I am in about $30 + pcb cost (I traded some switches for the pcb so it is like free to me) for my prototype. $20 plastic stock Pure case, $10 for a G80-11900HRMUS (was NIB too) I'm stealing the switches and caps from. Shop smart, and with some luck it dosen't have to cost very much at all.

Same story here for my prototype board. Using a stock Poker case from one I replaced with an aluminum imsto case. PCB mount switches and caps from a broken Compaq MX-11800 I salvaged from the trash bin at a job.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sat, 15 December 2012, 15:28:30
Idk if this is bad or not but my laser guy got back to me on my custom case:

Top: $45
Plate: $11
Bottom: $35

So that's $90 just in materials before even looking at the mill or being anodized. That's at the order level of 20, to do a single prototype would be around $150 just in materials.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 15 December 2012, 15:30:01
I'm very interested in the case if it's $150 or less, Beast.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sat, 15 December 2012, 15:33:44
I'm very interested in the case if it's $150 or less, Beast.

I have no idea how much mill time is going to cost. I've contacted treble and I'm going to go to a couple milling shops around me when I go home for Christmas. A good friend of the family works at one of them, so hopefully I can get a price break their. I don't think anodizing will to too much, but it's not going to be nothing.

Oh yea, I forgot to mention that I don't think the laser guy can go past 1/2" but I'll need 5/8" for the base :(


Just remember that I'm really trying to go Korean custom quality for this
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Batmann on Sat, 15 December 2012, 15:47:57
Sounds good Beast,
Also good to know you are on it!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: estux on Sat, 15 December 2012, 16:13:11
Budget build with PCB mounting of switches, with no plate, used stock plastic Poker/Pure case, salvaged switches and keycaps, you could probably build one for around $100-150.

Reasonable cost.

Will the PCB support leds?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 15 December 2012, 16:17:17
Budget build with PCB mounting of switches, with no plate, used stock plastic Poker/Pure case, salvaged switches and keycaps, you could probably build one for around $100-150.

Reasonable cost.

Will the PCB support leds?
no leds.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 15 December 2012, 16:18:29
Budget build with PCB mounting of switches, with no plate, used stock plastic Poker/Pure case, salvaged switches and keycaps, you could probably build one for around $100-150.

Reasonable cost.

Will the PCB support leds?
no leds.
Only caps lock led;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 15 December 2012, 16:46:47
Will anything extra need to be done to use certain color led there on the caps lock? Like orange for example use less voltage usually, unless you buy specifically high bright.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sat, 15 December 2012, 17:26:56
Will anything extra need to be done to use certain color led there on the caps lock? Like orange for example use less voltage usually, unless you buy specifically high bright.

Change the value of the resistor.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 15 December 2012, 17:56:59
Komar, while we wait for the prototypes to arrive, did you get a fully working prototype, including firmware loaded into it?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 16 December 2012, 03:27:56
Yes, I have a working prototype of standard "poker" ANSI. There's nkro firmware running on it, and it's tested in linux and windows.
The layout is hardcoded in the source so far, but I have a second HID interface working, so you can change the layout in run-time.
I need to implement a sensible format of the layout, which will make fancy things possible and then writing it to flash in run-time.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 16 December 2012, 19:46:40
Prototype board doesn't support 2 keys where the Backspace key goes, that's coming in the final revision, but I now know what layout my production GH60 will have:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Aai81.jpg)


Source:  http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/index.php?mid=photo&page=4&document_srl=5441326
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Sai on Sun, 16 December 2012, 19:48:26
^ same for me !!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 16 December 2012, 19:52:19
Prototype board doesn't support 2 keys where the Backspace key goes, that's coming in the final revision, but I now know what layout my production GH60 will have:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Aai81.jpg)


Source:  http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/index.php?mid=photo&page=4&document_srl=5441326

Cool.  So backspace will support two 1x keys and Shift_R will support 1.75-1.  Will Shift_R also support 1-1.75?

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sun, 16 December 2012, 20:13:10
Looks gross :(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 16 December 2012, 20:15:41
Having a 1.75 left shift would allow for no stabilizer as well as having the ability to use a Dolch (and any other 1800 set)without any other add-on kits. I like the idea, just not the aesthetics personally. So yes Beast, I agree that it looks gross. :))
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Sun, 16 December 2012, 20:25:18
I kinda dig it as it's something different than the norm and as such makes me more willing to get yet another 60% board.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 16 December 2012, 20:42:59
Cool.  So backspace will support two 1x keys and Shift_R will support 1.75-1.  Will Shift_R also support 1-1.75?

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Yes, support for 1.75-1.0 and 1.0-1.75 at the R_SHIFT position is included.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Sun, 16 December 2012, 20:44:13
I kinda dig it as it's something different than the norm and as such makes me more willing to get yet another 60% board.


Will prototypes support split space bar, left and right shift?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 16 December 2012, 21:00:36
Will prototypes support split space bar, left and right shift?

Won't support split space bar unless you put them in some strange positions. Please, everyone, see the OP for all the layout options. They are all in the third image, outlined in different colors.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 16 December 2012, 21:01:31
Will prototypes support split space bar, left and right shift?

Won't support split space bar unless you put them in some strange positions. Please, everyone, see the OP for all the layout options. They are all in the third image, outlined in different colors.
migt be a good idea to make some basic separated options...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sun, 16 December 2012, 23:10:46
I kinda dig it as it's something different than the norm and as such makes me more willing to get yet another 60% board.

I thought this as well.  While it is not immediately pleasing to the eye in the traditional sense, the uniqueness does add something and I think it looks pretty decent for the reason you mentioned. 
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sun, 16 December 2012, 23:49:13
You guys should already know what key position and layout it will support, just look at the PCB. There won't be anymore changes because the PCBs has already been made and shipped, unless komar decides to make some significant changes between all the beta boards and final production PCB.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 16 December 2012, 23:51:01
I would like to add a split backspace if possible, if not o wells.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Sun, 16 December 2012, 23:55:02
Komar did say split spacebar is possible yet awkward.  Anyone care for a test run? ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 16 December 2012, 23:57:31
Yeah, I really hate to be that guy, and I understand it can be hard to read through an entire thread if you come into it late. But surely we might expect you to at least read the original post before asking a question?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 16 December 2012, 23:58:55
Prof, Komar is doing the split backspace AFAIK in the next (final) revision. Per your suggestion.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 17 December 2012, 00:07:45
Prof, Komar is doing the split backspace AFAIK in the next (final) revision. Per your suggestion.
Sweet! Looks at the DOX v2 project thats been sitting for months and kicks it, it rolls over on its back. It looks dead... I guess I get more GH60's now!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 17 December 2012, 00:11:38
When the DOX and the Phantom had a baby, it was the GH60.

Props to Dox and bpiphany/HaveANiceDay for being the imaginative and creative giants upon whose shoulders we stand.

Credit to KMAC Happy for copying our idea, and doing it up the Korean way. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 17 December 2012, 00:19:38
Same I really wanted the DOX v2 to work but it just fell apart :( maybe for GH60v2 we add some (some as in every key has one) LEDs?
 
Yea I have to say I love the PCBs I just wish we had a case to match so we could show off more to those Koreans.

Is it bad that i still want one?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 17 December 2012, 00:25:54
We need to copy their case, but have a few options for the top cover. They have standoffs for Poker-type PCBs, as well as a plate that integrates with the case. Someone smarter than I should go to the link below the photo I posted, grab all those photos there, and get the dimensions for the case. Then design a case just like that one for the GH60.

Top cover piece could have 3 options: Open design (like Poker case), cutouts for HHKB-style layout (like their photo, only without using those cover blocks), and winkeyless style (as on KMACs, etc.).

In fact, our PCB would work just fine inside their case.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 17 December 2012, 00:42:43
I would like to add a split backspace if possible, if not o wells.

I would have loved a split space bar too. I brought this up in the phantom GB, but seems like it wasn't popular and got no response for it. A huge problem would be finding two custom space bars to do it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/th_edited.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/edited.jpg)

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23572.msg511424#msg511424 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23572.msg511424#msg511424)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Mon, 17 December 2012, 00:55:07
Yeah, I really hate to be that guy, and I understand it can be hard to read through an entire thread if you come into it late. But surely we might expect you to at least read the original post before asking a question?

Sorry, I joined late but I did read most of the thread along with the op. I understand this has been thought out a certain way. But I am not as knowledgeable about customizing pbc as you guys and phases of making a custom board. This will be the first one that I will be apart of. Yes, reading the whole thread was hard and long. Sorry for challanging the work you have completed.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 17 December 2012, 06:00:38
^ Wasn't directed at you specifically.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 17 December 2012, 06:16:11
Project update:
1. I added soldering instructions to the prototyping thread for those who are soldering on their own: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570.msg717519#msg717519 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570.msg717519#msg717519)
2. I'm working on switch positions guide, hoping to make the layout options clearer...
3. I have a basic programming model:
Layers use inheritance. Every layer can be either a base layer (no parent), or can inherit from one other layer (its parent). Every key on a layer is either inherited (does the same as on the parent layer) or defined (does something else).
A key's definition consists of scancode and action. Scancode defines which key is sent to the PC (can be null, so that a key doesn't send anything).
Action can be one of three options:
a) layer change on key-down event (relative - adds or subtracts a constant from current layer number)
b) layer change on key-up event (the same, but when releasing the key)
c) [not strictly necessary, but simplifies some cases] layer change by n on key-down and -n on key-up, where n is a a defined integer.
The first two actions make pretty much possible including simple fn key (layer +1 on key-down on base layer and -1 on key-up on second layer); conditional scancodes (for example shift changes layer to one which inherits all the keys but escape, which becomes tilde/tick), so when you press ESC together with shift it becomes tilde; binary layer selection (3 keys with MX Lock which act as bits), though this one requires you to define all three keys on all 8 layers to work properly, so action (c) comes useful (define all 3 on base layer as +-1, +-2, +-4, where +- means action (c), which adds on key-down and subtracts on key-up, and inherit them on all other layers).
You can also easily change layers "permanently" by key-click (in cycles). Just define key-down on one layer, which goes to another, then again key-down on another, and so on and then come back to base layer.
Changing layers with a combo should be doable too: fn goes to special layer (and comes back when released), where say, space goes to the desired layer, but on that layer space doesn't do anything, so that layer stays set unless someone presses fn (which on that layer goes to other special layer, where in turn, space goes back to base layer).
Inheritance will make defining things simple, because you won't have to change keys on all layers each time you want to change something if you design inheritance properly. It also makes it possible to compress the layout to fit many layers which support various conditions, combos and stuff.

Tell me what you think.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 17 December 2012, 07:10:19
jdcarpe do yo uthink that you could add some basic layout to the OP so that people would get the idea of the possibilities of this PCB? I was thinking standard ANSI, standard ISO, ANSI Winkeyless, HHKB, and just for kicks my layout which doesnt have a name (maybe someone should give it one?) and is pictured below from the DOXv2 project.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/Dox41_zps514c0f2a.png)

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 17 December 2012, 07:11:18
o and im talking about just the key layout the the lettering and what not.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 17 December 2012, 07:21:35
if your looking for firmware i would look at hasu's also I know Tranquilite adaped it for me to both my Phantom HID Liberation Device so it should be possible to use on the GH60.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 17 December 2012, 08:49:42
jdcarpe do yo uthink that you could add some basic layout to the OP so that people would get the idea of the possibilities of this PCB? I was thinking standard ANSI, standard ISO, ANSI Winkeyless, HHKB, and just for kicks my layout which doesnt have a name (maybe someone should give it one?) and is pictured below from the DOXv2 project.

No problem. I will work on them today, and get them added to the bottom of the OP.


EDIT: Done.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 17 December 2012, 12:44:48
jdcarpe do yo uthink that you could add some basic layout to the OP so that people would get the idea of the possibilities of this PCB? I was thinking standard ANSI, standard ISO, ANSI Winkeyless, HHKB, and just for kicks my layout which doesnt have a name (maybe someone should give it one?) and is pictured below from the DOXv2 project.
No problem. I will work on them today, and get them added to the bottom of the OP.


EDIT: Done.
Thanks they look great I think people will have a better understanding about what the GH60 can do now if you know what I mean.

Also I still want a cool name for my layout so start brainstorming people ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 17 December 2012, 13:11:01

No problem. I will work on them today, and get them added to the bottom of the OP.

EDIT: Done.

Mine too, please?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 17 December 2012, 13:14:24
Added yours, too. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 17 December 2012, 13:41:50
Unless komar makes revisions before the final production board, the top right has to have a 2x size key. Meaning the Profosist's and samwisekoi's layouts won't work with the beta boards. Just look at the PCB holes.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 17 December 2012, 13:46:18
There will be some final revisions for sure, maybe 2 backspace keys too, if they fit.
That shipping is making me angry. I was told 6 days, that means it should be there today...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 17 December 2012, 13:51:09
What does that mean firmware wise for the prototypes vs the finals? The proto's will have desperate firmware?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 17 December 2012, 14:02:44
There will be some final revisions for sure, maybe 2 backspace keys too, if they fit.
That shipping is making me angry. I was told 6 days, that means it should be there today...

It's probably held up in customs on this side. They love to make us wait for stuff.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 17 December 2012, 18:48:43
Project update:
1. I added soldering instructions to the prototyping thread for those who are soldering on their own: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570.msg717519#msg717519 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570.msg717519#msg717519)
2. I'm working on switch positions guide, hoping to make the layout options clearer...
3. I have a basic programming model:
Layers use inheritance. Every layer can be either a base layer (no parent), or can inherit from one other layer (its parent). Every key on a layer is either inherited (does the same as on the parent layer) or defined (does something else).
A key's definition consists of scancode and action. Scancode defines which key is sent to the PC (can be null, so that a key doesn't send anything).
Action can be one of three options:
a) layer change on key-down event (relative - adds or subtracts a constant from current layer number)
b) layer change on key-up event (the same, but when releasing the key)
c) [not strictly necessary, but simplifies some cases] layer change by n on key-down and -n on key-up, where n is a a defined integer.
The first two actions make pretty much possible including simple fn key (layer +1 on key-down on base layer and -1 on key-up on second layer); conditional scancodes (for example shift changes layer to one which inherits all the keys but escape, which becomes tilde/tick), so when you press ESC together with shift it becomes tilde; binary layer selection (3 keys with MX Lock which act as bits), though this one requires you to define all three keys on all 8 layers to work properly, so action (c) comes useful (define all 3 on base layer as +-1, +-2, +-4, where +- means action (c), which adds on key-down and subtracts on key-up, and inherit them on all other layers).
You can also easily change layers "permanently" by key-click (in cycles). Just define key-down on one layer, which goes to another, then again key-down on another, and so on and then come back to base layer.
Changing layers with a combo should be doable too: fn goes to special layer (and comes back when released), where say, space goes to the desired layer, but on that layer space doesn't do anything, so that layer stays set unless someone presses fn (which on that layer goes to other special layer, where in turn, space goes back to base layer).
Inheritance will make defining things simple, because you won't have to change keys on all layers each time you want to change something if you design inheritance properly. It also makes it possible to compress the layout to fit many layers which support various conditions, combos and stuff.

Tell me what you think.

I think this is great. I haven't really done any programming of layouts yet, but this sounds like just what we need. I'll have to find an MX Lock switch for a Fn-lock that deactivates on key-up event.

Your soldering guide is awesome. It makes even a novice like me think they might be able to assemble one of these, given the proper equipment.

Thanks for your efforts, komar!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Mon, 17 December 2012, 21:07:29
Speaking of them, anyone have a place to get a MX Lock or 6?  That would give my mini dream keyboard that certain "I don't know what".  :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 17 December 2012, 21:11:34
Speaking of them, anyone have a place to get a MX Lock or 6?  That would give my mini dream keyboard that certain "I don't know what".  :)
possibly 7bit I think i saw that he had them on DT also I believe online components used to carry them.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tjcaustin on Mon, 17 December 2012, 21:15:41
7bit is all about the mxlocks, but gods is he slow about getting switches out.

Additionally, I need this or phantom to start taking my money, I needs to build something fancy.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Tue, 18 December 2012, 00:01:26
So will we only need a different plate for each layout, and one PCB fits all? 

Interested in a few of the layouts.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 18 December 2012, 00:03:07
That shipping is making me angry. I was told 6 days, that means it should be there today...

Haven't gotten the packages yet. There is almost no chance it can get to me in 6 days. Weekends don't count as business days, they did not take into account customs inspections or hold which is unpredictable, and it's during holidays time which is even more delays.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hasu on Tue, 18 December 2012, 09:28:31
I received my package today. Thanks komar007. I'll check your instruction thread later.

Great. It looks like reasonably elaborate design to meet most of our demand. Looking forward to seeing your firmware.
A key's definition consists of scancode and action. Scancode defines which key is sent to the PC (can be null, so that a key doesn't send anything).
Action can be one of three options:
a) layer change on key-down event (relative - adds or subtracts a constant from current layer number)
b) layer change on key-up event (the same, but when releasing the key)
c) [not strictly necessary, but simplifies some cases] layer change by n on key-down and -n on key-up, where n is a a defined integer.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 18 December 2012, 09:32:24
Wow, that's great.
That also means I have to release the firmware quickly with at least a hard-coded poker layout, so that you can test everything.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Tue, 18 December 2012, 13:28:47
Oh man so excited, seems to be moving along.

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 18 December 2012, 17:28:12
Okay, the layout concept works;)
I ended up implementing separate actions for key-down and key-up and you can jump to layers using either relative or absolute number. This should cover most demands, I hope. Inheritance is not handled in firmware, so it will be resolved by the PC program before sending layout to the keyboard.


Now I have to make sending layouts possible without recompilation of the firmware and prepare communication libraries.
kravlin, how's the GUI doing? I tried to use it, but it doesn't compile. I'll investigate later.
Do you think you can handle multiple layers, inheritance and actions in it? Then I'll provide a C library which will connect to the keyboard and send the layout.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Tue, 18 December 2012, 18:20:29
komar, I haven't had a ton of time to play with it lately (I'm interviewing with 2 companies and trying to find a job after college). I have some time to spend tonight though.

The goal was to have it work on multiple layers, inheritance and all of that as well. I'll use whatever libraries you write in whatever language you feel comfortable with. Even if that means scrapping what I've written.

As for compiling or not, you need GTKmm 3.0 installed as well as G++ (at the current time).

EDIT: That's why it wasn't compiling. I forgot to push my most recent commit. Sorry :(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Turbinia on Tue, 18 December 2012, 20:26:05
Been trying to find the dimensions of the drilled spots and the keep out areas using a gerber viewer and it is not working too well. Someone want to do a 2d drawing with the offsets for all the drills? Trying to get a case design made and it is rather hard if you don't know any of the dimensions.

*was able to get the dimensions pretty close I think. Decided to see how much it would cost to get a chassis made by shapeways, a 3d printing company. http://www.shapeways.com/model/836182/keyboard-chassis.html (http://www.shapeways.com/model/836182/keyboard-chassis.html) Concept is that there would be a separate acrylic or metal back plate bonded to the nylon and brass standoffs for the threaded parts. Ended up costing $71, which if you see the cost of a milled aluminum case doesn't really make it that appealing.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 19 December 2012, 05:52:23
I'm pretty sure you can just open the drill file and extract the coordinates. They should be there in "plain" text.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 19 December 2012, 16:47:42
samwisekoi has offered to help with designing an acrylic case.

I am thinking of a strong but simple 60% case that would fit:
 - GH60
 - Poker
 - Model M 60% cut-and-fold

[attach=1]   [attach=2]
Mockup shown in translucent blue Acrylic with both GH60 PCBA and B/S frame cut to 60%

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Wed, 19 December 2012, 19:59:25
Whoa...60% Model M?

Has that been done before?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 19 December 2012, 20:01:01
Whoa...60% Model M?

Has that been done before?

ClickClack has the only one, AFAIK...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Lumune on Wed, 19 December 2012, 20:16:20
finally finished reading all 40 pages...
I am definitely interested in this project after my own failed attempt.
Keep up the good work guys :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 19 December 2012, 20:20:36
Whoa...60% Model M?

Has that been done before?

ClickClack has the only one, AFAIK...

Not for long bro
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 19 December 2012, 20:43:10
Whoa...60% Model M?

Has that been done before?

ClickClack has the only one, AFAIK...

Not for long bro

Are you working on one as well?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Wed, 19 December 2012, 22:10:39
Not to side track...but can you simply just cut down a PCB, or does a custom one need to be made?

Id assume you then need a custom controller, and obviously case.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 19 December 2012, 22:14:54
Not to side track...but can you simply just cut down a PCB, or does a custom one need to be made?

Id assume you then need a custom controller, and obviously case.

I am experimenting now, and will start a thread as soon as the raw material gets to me from Unicomp.

My apologies to the thread-starter.  I was simply trying to show what kind of case I was planning to design.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 19 December 2012, 22:24:15
I may be a total weirdo, but I think a white POM case would be the bomb.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 19 December 2012, 22:27:10
Sounds very interesting, lysol. Link to any example?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 19 December 2012, 22:28:28
Weirdo! ;)
/me laughs at Lysol!


I keeeeed...I keeeeed!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 19 December 2012, 23:02:16
I may be a total weirdo, but I think a white POM case would be the bomb.

I can make this one out of POM (Acetal).  Would certainly need rubber feet then!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 19 December 2012, 23:22:28
I don't know of any keyboard case that is made out of pom, but I really like the look of my water block tops that are white pom.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fruktstund on Thu, 20 December 2012, 00:03:57
You should really stop writing POM non-capitalized. Just woke up and read it as porn at least five times before understanding it was POM. lol
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Thu, 20 December 2012, 02:16:55
Even understanding it lower case, I thought it was porn too.

I agree white acetal looks good in CPU blocks, but I don't know if a massive piece will look as good.

Looking forward to that thread Sam.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 20 December 2012, 04:45:29
How much could case be?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 20 December 2012, 09:56:46
Why u no want porn case?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jspark on Thu, 20 December 2012, 10:46:55
what is porn case....? Isn't it pom? :P definitely guys!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 20 December 2012, 11:17:34
Why u no want porn case?
Does it come with a free mouse?

NSFW link:  Booby mouse (http://2005to2007.fabrica.it/blog/boob%20mouse.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 20 December 2012, 12:19:18
Why u no want porn case?

Actually, my case will have a clear layer over a solid layer, so you could insert photos of your choice and genre!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Thu, 20 December 2012, 13:07:02
Why u no want porn case?

Actually, my case will have a clear layer over a solid layer, so you could insert photos of your choice and genre!

The first ever POM porn case!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Lumune on Thu, 20 December 2012, 15:08:51
@komar007
hi there, I am just wondering when you guys write the keyboard firmware, is it necessary to do sampling to cater for resonance/damping/whatever-that-thing-called? Or you did something hardware-wise to reduce those problems.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 20 December 2012, 15:26:41
Now thats an ergo mouse.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 20 December 2012, 16:45:07
@komar007
hi there, I am just wondering when you guys write the keyboard firmware, is it necessary to do sampling to cater for resonance/damping/whatever-that-thing-called? Or you did something hardware-wise to reduce those problems.
Hi
I'll release and open-source the firmware soon.
I'm currently working on the layout programming interface which will be used by the GUI to send layout to the kb. I've just figured out how to use Atmel DFU bootloader's ABI (incompatible calling convention stalled me for a while...)
As for matrix scanning, I'm currently scanning it like 30 or 50 times per second and it's enough not to cause lagging and eliminates contact chatter. I don't know why 1000Hz scanning is all the rage, but I can make mine faster if necessary and do additional chatter suppression. We'll see.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Thu, 20 December 2012, 20:10:33
is it necessary to do sampling to cater for resonance/damping/whatever-that-thing-called?

The word you're looking for is de-bounce
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: laffindude on Thu, 20 December 2012, 20:38:27
/Only skimmed the pages. Not sure if this is answered already, but why the sideways switches? That'll make the keycaps hard to remove since the thickness of the cruciform is not the same.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 20 December 2012, 23:34:26
^ In order to fit all the options and also have pcb mount holes.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: leesofi on Fri, 21 December 2012, 06:21:51
i like led.. but.. only capslock.. oops
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Fri, 21 December 2012, 10:49:08
No offense, but could we take down the picture of the mouse? It's kinda massively NSFW.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Index on Fri, 21 December 2012, 12:34:26
No offense, but could we take down the picture of the mouse? It's kinda massively NSFW.
Haha, I thought I was the only one who thought that. I was too scared of the potential flame for pointing it out though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kravlin on Fri, 21 December 2012, 12:44:28
No offense, but could we take down the picture of the mouse? It's kinda massively NSFW.
Haha, I thought I was the only one who thought that. I was too scared of the potential flame for pointing it out though.
I don't really mind it, but I was browsing this while i had a break at work :(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Lumune on Fri, 21 December 2012, 21:30:21
@komar007
hi there, I am just wondering when you guys write the keyboard firmware, is it necessary to do sampling to cater for resonance/damping/whatever-that-thing-called? Or you did something hardware-wise to reduce those problems.
Hi
I'll release and open-source the firmware soon.
I'm currently working on the layout programming interface which will be used by the GUI to send layout to the kb. I've just figured out how to use Atmel DFU bootloader's ABI (incompatible calling convention stalled me for a while...)
As for matrix scanning, I'm currently scanning it like 30 or 50 times per second and it's enough not to cause lagging and eliminates contact chatter. I don't know why 1000Hz scanning is all the rage, but I can make mine faster if necessary and do additional chatter suppression. We'll see.

Cool, I can't wait to see this beast...

is it necessary to do sampling to cater for resonance/damping/whatever-that-thing-called?

The word you're looking for is de-bounce
Yes, thats ta word, thx
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: kbfreak on Sat, 22 December 2012, 07:12:14
This looks like a lengthy process, but from the sound of it the keyboard is very good so I guess it's worth the wait!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Sat, 22 December 2012, 08:16:02
Mines arrived :)

(http://i.imgur.com/PGPhD.jpg)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 22 December 2012, 08:31:10
Great news!
I hope I packed all the parts;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Sat, 22 December 2012, 08:32:14
That photo has me so jealous right now.  Can't wait 'till we get them for real.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Ascaii on Sat, 22 December 2012, 09:17:35
I am very interested in this, please add me to the group buy list.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 22 December 2012, 09:59:37
Aha, sorry guys. I would have removed it completely had my post not been edited already. Sorry about that...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sat, 22 December 2012, 10:53:43
I got a notification from FedEx, wasn't expecting anything so got really excited.

So I got there and it was for my wife :-(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Sat, 22 December 2012, 11:17:59
all smd parts are soldered, just need to put switches in and put firmware on.  firmwares not on github tho :o

Love the smd switch on the bottom, hate the X1, pads need to be larger for my soldering station, crossing fingers with that one.... rest was okay.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 22 December 2012, 13:40:41
I'm getting a little worried I still haven't gotten all the proto boards yet. US tracking says they're still in Poland. It's still holiday seasons, so I'm not totally alarmed yet.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 22 December 2012, 13:47:39
Well, USPS hasn't changed status for like a week or more, same with the local post. They claim it has been sent abroad though...
It's a shame it's taking so long.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Aleksander on Sat, 22 December 2012, 18:44:01
OK, I want a ISO board :)

One question (to lazy to read through the whole thing) is the caps-switch wired to a separate input on the matrix or is there a available IO on the controller?
that would be great when using MXlock as capslock :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 22 December 2012, 18:45:24
You don't need to have the lock switch on it's own "bus"
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Aleksander on Sat, 22 December 2012, 18:52:42
I know, as long as there is NKRO it should be no problem. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: simkev on Tue, 25 December 2012, 06:04:43
When this hits group buy and production will there be anyone handling European distribution?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 25 December 2012, 07:34:45
I don't think we figured that out yet. I think we enough people on DT know that it will be fairly easy to get a distributor.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Tue, 25 December 2012, 07:51:28
I will distribute the keyboard in Europe, of course, or maybe I'll find one more person to help.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: developej on Tue, 25 December 2012, 08:13:17
i recently discovered this topic and i got a question - why noone considered trackpoint on this beauty?
(unless you all used different term, since i did search on a 'trackpoint')
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 25 December 2012, 10:03:42
I'm not sure. Perhaps because it is hard to source keycaps?
I will distribute the keyboard in Europe, of course, or maybe I'll find one more person to help.
I forgot that you were in the EU Komar. Whoops.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Tue, 25 December 2012, 11:30:44
It's funny that people in the US assume others are in the same country. I normally assume others are not in my country.

Need to try and change that, internet/no boarders.

It annoys me when I see conus only in sales, I mean without people contributing overseas you wouldn't have this board. You wouldn't have the phantom. And the Korean stuff that filters through.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 25 December 2012, 12:10:34
It's funny that people in the US assume others are in the same country. I normally assume others are not in my country.

Need to try and change that, internet/no boarders.

It annoys me when I see conus only in sales, I mean without people contributing overseas you wouldn't have this board. You wouldn't have the phantom. And the Korean stuff that filters through.

Fair enough.  For me to ship a box of keycaps from California to anywhere in the US via USPS Priority mail: $40 USD  The same shipment to Newcastle Upon Tyne, UK is $75 USD. 
  http://postcalc.usps.com/Default.aspx

I agree that Mr. dirge should be able to choose to spend the extra $35USD (£20 BPS) to buy a box of keycaps from me.  And just as I might not buy a single keycap from QWERKeys because of the shipping cost, buying a Filco MJ2 from Keyboardco makes the shipping cost relatively reasonable.

The US Customs form to ship via USPS is 1/4-sheet of paper, and asks very few questions.  So charge shipping and let the buyer decide, I say! 

Happy Christmas and Boxing Day!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Tue, 25 December 2012, 16:02:03
It's funny that people in the US assume others are in the same country. I normally assume others are not in my country.

Need to try and change that, internet/no boarders.

It annoys me when I see conus only in sales, I mean without people contributing overseas you wouldn't have this board. You wouldn't have the phantom. And the Korean stuff that filters through.

I do assume but I don't always assume people are from US.  You can kinda tell sometimes. They way people form words are different and other such things. I think most of the times it is just a little inconvenient. Pricing, time to ship, and other such things. If a buyer is willing to pay shipping and understands the circumstances upon int'l shippingI don't see why not.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Lumune on Tue, 25 December 2012, 22:26:17
oh...no...
how much do you guys think shipping to Australia would cost?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: multipla on Wed, 26 December 2012, 10:25:47
By the way, is there any limit of the controler regarding the amount of switches? I'd like to do something like this: 1.5-1.5-Spacebar-1.5-1-1-1.5, and split up both shift keys:
(http://i.imgur.com/1XiPR.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 26 December 2012, 10:30:15
oh...no...
how much do you guys think shipping to Australia would cost?
Much less than the keyboard;)

By the way, is there any limit of the controler regarding the amount of switches? I'd like to do something like this: 1.5-1.5-Spacebar-1.5-1-1-1.5, and split up both shift keys:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/1XiPR.png)

Possible
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 26 December 2012, 17:19:52
That looks nice.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 30 December 2012, 08:59:51
The keyboards are in New York according to tracking. I nearly thought they got lost... This is taking way too long.
But fortunately it seems they're fine.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sun, 30 December 2012, 11:35:49
They probably got stuck in customs backlog.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glissant on Sun, 30 December 2012, 12:35:38
It's funny that people in the US assume others are in the same country. I normally assume others are not in my country.

Need to try and change that, internet/no boarders.

It annoys me when I see conus only in sales, I mean without people contributing overseas you wouldn't have this board. You wouldn't have the phantom. And the Korean stuff that filters through.

Fair enough.  For me to ship a box of keycaps from California to anywhere in the US via USPS Priority mail: $40 USD  The same shipment to Newcastle Upon Tyne, UK is $75 USD. 
  http://postcalc.usps.com/Default.aspx

I agree that Mr. dirge should be able to choose to spend the extra $35USD (£20 BPS) to buy a box of keycaps from me.  And just as I might not buy a single keycap from QWERKeys because of the shipping cost, buying a Filco MJ2 from Keyboardco makes the shipping cost relatively reasonable.

The US Customs form to ship via USPS is 1/4-sheet of paper, and asks very few questions.  So charge shipping and let the buyer decide, I say! 

Happy Christmas and Boxing Day!

 - Ron | samwisekoi



This needs to be quoted just so more people get another chance to read it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 30 December 2012, 13:17:38
GH60++ Layout Proposal

Playing with my new Choco Mini, I found that the extra column is quite handy.  Without making the keyboard much wider, and no taller, one more column on the right could enable a bunch of cool things using the GH60 as a base:

- Inverted-T arrow cluster
- Programmable keys (5-8, depending)

To implement this using the prototype GH60 PCB, the case and/or plate would need to be widened by 1x keycap.  Also, the Bakcspace key can't be split, and the Mod_R keys cannot all be 1x.

So for the moment, such a layout would require a case with a 5-key sub-frame and fewer 1x keys than optimal.

Below is a mockup of the GH60++ keyboard, including the Mod_R key cluster from the prototype PCB.  I've included relegendable keycaps for the 1x keys that no one will ever agree upon.  My preferred legends are shown.  Yours are not.

As I design a universal 60% case (GH60, Poker & Mini M), I'll model the extension needed for the extra five keys and their support.

i look forward to any thoughts re this concept.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Sun, 30 December 2012, 13:30:52
Personally I like symmetry, so I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Definitely seems like it offers some usefulness, though.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sun, 30 December 2012, 13:54:13
It's coming closer to 70%... the next form factor? Nothing I need personally.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rknize on Sun, 30 December 2012, 14:00:16
I'd rather stick with a design that fits into existing Poker/Pure chassis designs for this project.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 30 December 2012, 14:51:07
I agree. I don't know that we need another design between 60% and 75% boards. And with the PCB we have, you get the option to use existing Poker/Pure cases.

That looks cool, but maybe you should go for a F-row and make it the GH75 keyboard. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 30 December 2012, 15:02:41
I agree. I don't know that we need another design between 60% and 75% boards. And with the PCB we have, you get the option to use existing Poker/Pure cases.

That looks cool, but maybe you should go for a F-row and make it the GH75 keyboard. :)

I agree.  Does anyone else?  Anyone with plate and PCB skills?

GH75 anyone?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 30 December 2012, 16:10:09
I like it, but this isn't the thread for it. Maybe make another one in this same subforum called [IC] GH75 keyboard...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 30 December 2012, 17:39:02
I like it, but this isn't the thread for it. Maybe make another one in this same subforum called [IC] GH75 keyboard...

Will do.  I may also pursue a GH60/Poker case with room for an extra 5 switches.  Only the GH60 stuff will come here.

Thanks!

 -Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: pasph on Sun, 30 December 2012, 19:13:27
I agree. I don't know that we need another design between 60% and 75% boards. And with the PCB we have, you get the option to use existing Poker/Pure cases.

That looks cool, but maybe you should go for a F-row and make it the GH75 keyboard. :)

I agree.  Does anyone else?  Anyone with plate and PCB skills?

GH75 anyone?

 - Ron | samwisekoi


Make it!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rknize on Sun, 30 December 2012, 20:32:03
I like it, but this isn't the thread for it. Maybe make another one in this same subforum called [IC] GH75 keyboard...

A GH75 would essentially be a KS Mini.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 30 December 2012, 20:47:03
I like it, but this isn't the thread for it. Maybe make another one in this same subforum called [IC] GH75 keyboard...

A GH75 would essentially be a KS Mini.

So would a Choco Mini with betters stabs and some programmability.

Re the KS Mini, I've already asked them to take my money for that one!  But will it have all of the variants that a GH would?  Anyhow, we will see when and if that comes to life!

For now I'm going to focus on the GH60, perhaps with an augmented case design.  A case that will have room for a folded membrane should be able to hold five more keys on the RH edge when fitted with a Poker or a GH60.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mashby on Sun, 30 December 2012, 21:33:46
Reading through all the posts to get up to speed, but I'm very interested in getting one of these.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rknize on Sun, 30 December 2012, 23:19:13
I like it, but this isn't the thread for it. Maybe make another one in this same subforum called [IC] GH75 keyboard...

A GH75 would essentially be a KS Mini.

So would a Choco Mini with betters stabs and some programmability.

Re the KS Mini, I've already asked them to take my money for that one!  But will it have all of the variants that a GH would?  Anyhow, we will see when and if that comes to life!

For now I'm going to focus on the GH60, perhaps with an augmented case design.  A case that will have room for a folded membrane should be able to hold five more keys on the RH edge when fitted with a Poker or a GH60.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

No, not quite...but it will supposedly be fully programmable.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Mon, 31 December 2012, 04:30:48
I like it, but this isn't the thread for it. Maybe make another one in this same subforum called [IC] GH75 keyboard...

A GH75 would essentially be a KS Mini.
KS Mini, Choc Mini and LZ MX Mini all have the perfect layout in my opinion. None of them come in ISO though. I would much prefer a 75% ISO than a 60% ISO, but seen as neither exist, this upcomming 60% will have to do.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vun on Tue, 01 January 2013, 23:53:23
I'll might be down for a kit or two if money allows when GB is up
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: simkev on Wed, 02 January 2013, 11:54:02
When will this move from IC to GB?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acetrak on Wed, 02 January 2013, 11:59:02
After prototyping
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: inteli722 on Wed, 02 January 2013, 20:50:35
I just ordered a Phantom, and then I find out about this, with the chance to have a HHKB lookalike in Cherry MX. If this was later, like a year from now, then I could do it.



Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Thu, 03 January 2013, 00:54:45
Wait what?  Where did you order a Phantom from?  I thought that GB was closed?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 03 January 2013, 00:56:27
Wait what?  Where did you order a Phantom from?  I thought that GB was closed?
I think he just made the deadline.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Thu, 03 January 2013, 02:35:15
Just a useless update: I have NOT received all the prototype boards yet.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: inteli722 on Thu, 03 January 2013, 08:44:05
Wait what?  Where did you order a Phantom from?  I thought that GB was closed?
I think he just made the deadline.

Yep. Just made the deadline of R2 (ordered on the 2nd). However, as far as I can see, at 8:42 Central time, he's keeping it open for about 15 more hours (though don't quote me on this). So go check the GB just to be sure.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 03 January 2013, 08:55:08
Just a useless update: I have NOT received all the prototype boards yet.
They're very close now:)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: OrpheusX on Thu, 03 January 2013, 09:21:24
I agree. I don't know that we need another design between 60% and 75% boards. And with the PCB we have, you get the option to use existing Poker/Pure cases.

That looks cool, but maybe you should go for a F-row and make it the GH75 keyboard. :)

Need? What's any of this got to do with need?  ;D

Personally I love this GH60++ design. I think I'd prefer it to be a GH65/70 than a 75 though as I would want the arrow keys (for easier text selection when programming) but can easily live without dedicated function keys. The casing is still an issue I realize and thus makes the most sense as its own project. Just wanted to say I dug the design.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 03 January 2013, 10:36:17
I agree. I don't know that we need another design between 60% and 75% boards. And with the PCB we have, you get the option to use existing Poker/Pure cases.

That looks cool, but maybe you should go for a F-row and make it the GH75 keyboard. :)

Need? What's any of this got to do with need?  ;D

Personally I love this GH60++ design. I think I'd prefer it to be a GH65/70 than a 75 though as I would want the arrow keys (for easier text selection when programming) but can easily live without dedicated function keys. The casing is still an issue I realize and thus makes the most sense as its own project. Just wanted to say I dug the design.

Thanks, and I will make a GH60++ thread and include 65, 70 and 75%.

 - Ron| samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vorn on Fri, 04 January 2013, 05:01:02
I think this is the third time I've refreshed this page today, and it's only 1pm!!!

TAKE MY MONEY!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: imsto on Fri, 04 January 2013, 07:55:43
wow...it nice, I would like to help to make  the perfect case for it. just need the size and the position of the holes.hope it will have the same as pure. and i am in for one too.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 04 January 2013, 07:57:55
wow...it nice, I would like to help to make  the perfect case for it. just need the size and the position of the holes.hope it will have the same as pure. and i am in for one too.
Great!
Holes are poker-compatible and so is the USB connector.
Maybe we could get some logo stickers made to put on the case too.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vorn on Fri, 04 January 2013, 08:27:48
I was just wondering... Beast said (I think) he would handle the plates in all the different layouts people choose, but the key caps are going to be quite a lot harder to consolidate, and also everyone has much stronger ideas of what they want for this piece of the puzzle...

Is this question too premature? Is there going to be one big GB for keycaps with lots of options to accomodate all the desired layouts?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Fri, 04 January 2013, 08:29:35
Maybe in 2017 there will be group buy 5, and we can make a GH60-specific set:D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 04 January 2013, 10:16:02
Maybe in 2017 there will be group buy 5
I LOL'd.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 04 January 2013, 10:31:55
GH60 specific set:

1. Base kit
2. Modifiers
3. 13-key (tsangan) kit
4. ISO kit

Then just throw out all unneeded keycaps. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: reverkiller on Fri, 04 January 2013, 20:31:47
GH60 specific set:

1. Base kit
2. Modifiers
3. 13-key (tsangan) kit
4. ISO kit

Then just throw out all unneeded keycaps. :D

SP Crap bag. I'm sure you can find plenty of keycaps with the right profiles!

They may not match much though :P
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gropingmantis on Sat, 05 January 2013, 07:34:57
60% ISO and fully programmable? Why did nobody tell me sooner!

I was close to finishing my own PCB design when I found this and it turns out my layout is possible on the GH60!

Put me down for two!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Sat, 05 January 2013, 10:45:01
Random idea: A 5x6 or 5x7 programmable would be a nice add-on to the GH60... The GH-KeyPad!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 05 January 2013, 10:52:47
I already posted an idea like that in the GH75 thread too. I am all for it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: 4LI4Z on Sat, 05 January 2013, 11:59:26
What I need for my  GH60:

Cherry PBTs (CHECK)
Lubed vintage Cherry MX switches (CHECK)
Nice MDPC-X-sleeved USB cable (in the mail)
Case? (Alu?)
Costar Stabilizers?
PCB (just have to wait for GB)

Can't wait for building one of these beauties!
By the way, if anyone is interested in MDPC-X-sleeve feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: phetto on Sat, 05 January 2013, 12:20:48
I dont remember how many I said I wanted in the interestcheck form, but anyway I want at least 2 of these babies.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acetrak on Sat, 05 January 2013, 12:27:58
I definitely want this with jdcarpe's short right shift layout with 1.5 mods :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 05 January 2013, 12:44:51
Epic plate GB will be epic! :D

I can't wait to see some of the case designs being worked on for this. My memory is terrible concerning all the members who said they were working on case designs, but I hope all the people working on them have some really great designs for us to see.

I have a feeling the prototypes will be arriving soon, so we can get them tested and start the GB process.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 05 January 2013, 13:18:35
Short right shift = good. Keypad = good.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sat, 05 January 2013, 16:36:49
MX Blues ordered.  CAD design for the case is underway...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sun, 06 January 2013, 07:30:28
This is the base design...

[attach=1]

Once the GH60 is in place, the final layer will be a Raspberry Pi.   ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: phetto on Sun, 06 January 2013, 07:34:08
Nice red, will you have any place you can cut those at?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sun, 06 January 2013, 08:00:51
Yes, I have access to a laser cutter at my local hackerspace.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Sun, 06 January 2013, 08:10:36
Why is your plate so thick?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sun, 06 January 2013, 08:20:50
I'm using acrylic.  In order to get the stiffness I need I need 5mm.  5mm is the exact size which snaps the keys into place and has the PCB flush against the acrylic.

This is all of course subject to change when the real world gets involved ;-)   ... but for that to happen, my GH60 and MX Blues need to arrive!@
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 06 January 2013, 08:50:27
Once the GH60 is in place, the final layer will be a Raspberry Pi.   ;D

You are making an all-in-one PC, like the classic computers of yore, e.g. Commodore 64?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 06 January 2013, 13:29:33
Two questions re the PCB:

#1 What is the purpose of the six through-holes under the space bar?

#2 I assume there are unused rows and columns on the controller.  In a future round, can those pins be brought out to solder pads (perhaps under the space bar) for expansion possibilities?

Thanks for everything!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
(http://www.samwisekoi.com/pixelart/Leo.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sun, 06 January 2013, 13:36:23
#1 What is the purpose of the six through-holes under the space bar?
That is SPI which you can use to program the bootloader if there ever is a need. I'm considering dropping it in favor of JTAG.
The other possibility is to leave it there and use the JTAG pins for something else (though this will require programming fuse-bits through SPI) - for example break them out for expansion.
#2 I assume there are unused rows and columns on the controller.  In a future round, can those pins be brought out to solder pads (perhaps under the space bar) for expansion possibilities?
There is room for 6 another keys, but I'm not going to add pads for them unless there is a real need.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 06 January 2013, 13:51:25
#1 What is the purpose of the six through-holes under the space bar?
That is SPI which you can use to program the bootloader if there ever is a need. I'm considering dropping it in favor of JTAG.
The other possibility is to leave it there and use the JTAG pins for something else (though this will require programming fuse-bits through SPI) - for example break them out for expansion.
#2 I assume there are unused rows and columns on the controller.  In a future round, can those pins be brought out to solder pads (perhaps under the space bar) for expansion possibilities?
There is room for 6 another keys, but I'm not going to add pads for them unless there is a real need.

Thanks!

I am surprised that there is not more capacity on the controller.  Is this a smaller chip than (e.g.) the Liberator uses?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
(http://www.samwisekoi.com/pixelart/Leo.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 06 January 2013, 13:59:57
They use the same controller, the way Komar has the matrix set up though make it so that 6 keys are left.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: duq on Sun, 06 January 2013, 23:26:02
Can't wait to see some prototype action!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: hashbaz on Sun, 06 January 2013, 23:42:53
Excited to see this develop as well!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 07 January 2013, 00:35:20
That is SPI which you can use to program the bootloader if there ever is a need. I'm considering dropping it in favor of JTAG.
The other possibility is to leave it there and use the JTAG pins for something else (though this will require programming fuse-bits through SPI) - for example break them out for expansion.

Do people use JTAG? I'm genuinely curious, I have no idea, I just think that I always read about ISP...


Thanks!

I am surprised that there is not more capacity on the controller.  Is this a smaller chip than (e.g.) the Liberator uses?

I also used a multiplexer for the HID Liberator expanding 3 controller pins into 8 outputs. Cheating a bit there =D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: epicsilas on Mon, 07 January 2013, 00:38:41
This is the base design...

(Attachment Link)

Once the GH60 is in place, the final layer will be a Raspberry Pi.   ;D
That's awesome! I want one. :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Matt3o on Mon, 07 January 2013, 03:20:16
potentially interested...

you guys are too prolific.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JPG on Mon, 07 January 2013, 20:44:23
Interested here!!!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: engicoder on Mon, 07 January 2013, 22:08:47
Once the GH60 is in place, the final layer will be a Raspberry Pi.   ;D

I have been thinking about the same thing  with the intention of using the RPI as a remote desktop thin client (see http://rpitc.blogspot.com).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 08 January 2013, 17:41:01


Beta testers will get a PM from me. From now on I'll be posting in this thread until the final production boards being made

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570.0)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 08 January 2013, 18:06:16
Horray! PROTOTYPES!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Tue, 08 January 2013, 18:14:48
NICE! Hopefully it's a breeze and moves quickly from here. 

Look forward to seeing the first prototypes assembled. 


Also, I've learned today that I have been given full access to a shop full of metal working tools (sadly minus CNC), and given the free reign to attempt to make my own case.  I think I'm going to attempt to fabricate a Stainless Steel "oneproduct" style case in HHKB form for my GH60, and then get it powdercoated.
Depending on how that goes, and time/cost as well as finished result, I may consider custom orders if any one's possibly interested...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glod on Tue, 08 January 2013, 18:20:32
damn it, i want one :(
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 08 January 2013, 21:12:13
I am so excited they finally made it out of customs hell or where ever they were. Really looking forward to getting mine.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 08 January 2013, 21:21:39
Best unboxing video ever! When you showed the close-up of the PCB, I started getting REALLY excited that they are finally here and this is happening!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Wed, 09 January 2013, 00:54:46
NICE! Hopefully it's a breeze and moves quickly from here. 

Look forward to seeing the first prototypes assembled. 


Also, I've learned today that I have been given full access to a shop full of metal working tools (sadly minus CNC), and given the free reign to attempt to make my own case.  I think I'm going to attempt to fabricate a Stainless Steel "oneproduct" style case in HHKB form for my GH60, and then get it powdercoated.
Depending on how that goes, and time/cost as well as finished result, I may consider custom orders if any one's possibly interested...

If you gonna powdercoat it anyway why not using regular steel (ie. construction steel)?
Its not just cheaper but also much easier to work with (milling, grinding, welding...)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: danielucf on Wed, 09 January 2013, 01:34:14
So I want to solder my own Phantoms and GH60 eventually, will I be good with a hakko FX-888 or will I need something else I'm probably not aware of? I have seen mention of blowers, is that just a regular heat gun, or a special one specific to soldering? Also what tips should I have in my soldering toolkit that will have me prepared for anything keyboard soldering could throw my way? I had a lot of fun doing a simple switch swap to my old FC700R but that only required a desoldering iron, and a regular cheap soldering iron I had.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: dirge on Wed, 09 January 2013, 02:17:57
komar used a heat gun and flux to reflow solder on the gh60, it's going to be much easier doing it that way.  When I did mine I used multicore flux a fine tip and lots and lots of flux.

If you're not confident get someone else to do it, or get two boards as you may kill one.

Pads on some components could do with enlarging to allow the use of soldering stations.  SMD diodes, switches, cap/res/led of course are easy enough.

When soldering the controller, tin two legs at opposite sides.  position the controller so all pins are alligned then solder the tinned legs.  Then apply flux paste put some solder on the iron and run it across the rest of them.  It's easy enough just make sure to watch a few videos on youtube doing similar.

I've still got two legs shorted on my board so make sure you take your time and have soldering wick and lots of flux.  and don't for god sake use cheap ****ing solder!!!!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 09 January 2013, 03:17:50
So I want to solder my own Phantoms and GH60 eventually, will I be good with a hakko FX-888 or will I need something else I'm probably not aware of? I have seen mention of blowers, is that just a regular heat gun, or a special one specific to soldering? Also what tips should I have in my soldering toolkit that will have me prepared for anything keyboard soldering could throw my way? I had a lot of fun doing a simple switch swap to my old FC700R but that only required a desoldering iron, and a regular cheap soldering iron I had.

That hakko FX888 will be good for all you keyboard-related soldering. Of course you'll just need some accessories like solder wire and some finer chisel tips. Brass sponge is highly recommended. It's functionally the same as a damp sponge, except doesn't thermally shock your tip. An extra flux pen or gel is also highly recommended. This "blower" you mentioned is not just a regular heat gun. A normal heat gun will blow all your SMD components off the PCB before the solder even melts lol. These are hot air guns designed specifically for SMD soldering or rework because you have more precise control of temperature and air flow. You actually don't need one of these for keyboard work.

Phantom really only requires a decent soldering iron with medium size tips and solder wire. Only soldering the controller daughterboard is the most delicate part. Switches and diodes can actually be soldered with a rather large and blunt tip (but you'll still want a decent iron for this) as long as you have solder in wire size 0.032" or smaller. SMD soldering for GH60 is not relevant because the final production boards will come with SMC presoldered on. The only reason that I have to do the SMD soldering is because these are all prototype boards and it's not cost effective only have a few prototype boards soldered at the factory.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Wed, 09 January 2013, 08:51:04
WhiteFireDragon - How much do I owe you for shipping?  I'm kinda chomping at the bit to get my hands on it and if an extra $5 or $10 will get it in the mail today to compensate you for the drive to the Post Office I'll be happy to add it ;-)

No need to solder mine.  I have solder stencils, paste and the hot-plate ready :-)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Wed, 09 January 2013, 11:27:58
NICE! Hopefully it's a breeze and moves quickly from here. 

Look forward to seeing the first prototypes assembled. 


Also, I've learned today that I have been given full access to a shop full of metal working tools (sadly minus CNC), and given the free reign to attempt to make my own case.  I think I'm going to attempt to fabricate a Stainless Steel "oneproduct" style case in HHKB form for my GH60, and then get it powdercoated.
Depending on how that goes, and time/cost as well as finished result, I may consider custom orders if any one's possibly interested...

If you gonna powdercoat it anyway why not using regular steel (ie. construction steel)?
Its not just cheaper but also much easier to work with (milling, grinding, welding...)

I was contemplating using stainless with maybe a nice clear coat on, but I suppose you're right and I could save a bit on metal if I'm powder coating
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 09 January 2013, 13:23:24
WhiteFireDragon - How much do I owe you for shipping?  I'm kinda chomping at the bit to get my hands on it and if an extra $5 or $10 will get it in the mail today to compensate you for the drive to the Post Office I'll be happy to add it ;-)

No need to solder mine.  I have solder stencils, paste and the hot-plate ready :-)

Stencil? Oh you so fancy  8) . You made a stencil to solder 1 PCB? It would have been faster if you just manually applied the solder paste.

I finished typing out the mass PM last night, I'm making the google doc right now to fill out. You'll get a PM shortly.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 09 January 2013, 13:28:55
I would bet he has a set of component stencils.  On the other hand, he has access to a laser.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glissant on Wed, 09 January 2013, 14:14:27
I just wanted to say that even though I was too busy to be a part of this at the earliest stages, I am really looking forward to being a part of the group buy.
WhiteFireDragon, you are highly inspiring, and I will be pulling out my soldering equipment to finally get to work on my Poker and Filco mods. I hope to see more videos of you doing keyboard stuff on your channel :).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Wed, 09 January 2013, 14:19:25
Yes thanks for that mini write up and words of encouragement on the other page.

By the time this gets to me I'll hopefully have a phantom assembly under my belt, but I'm looking forward to learning.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Wed, 09 January 2013, 14:45:21
Stencil? Oh you so fancy  8) . You made a stencil to solder 1 PCB? It would have been faster if you just manually applied the solder paste.

I would bet he has a set of component stencils.  On the other hand, he has access to a laser.

alaricljs is correct.  OHP (OverHead Projector) plastic + paste layer + laser = cheap, quick and easy stencils :-)

EDIT: Just got notification that my MX blues arrive on Friday !
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: danielucf on Wed, 09 January 2013, 14:53:33
So the only soldering required for the actual GH60 and Phantom PCBs to get functional will be the teensy, switches, and LEDs?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:00:05
So the only soldering required for the actual GH60 and Phantom PCBs to get functional will be the teensy, switches, and LEDs?

Yes for Phantom, but also the thru hole diodes. For GH60, the controller and SMD diodes will be presoldered to the PCB, so only the switches and Caps Lock LED need to be soldered. Even simpler!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:31:22
I know we've talked about it already, but maybe we should consider changing USB mini to USB micro?
It's rated for more insertion cycles, and it is the kind of keyboard which you often plug and unplug...
I don't know, just thinking aloud.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:35:20
Fit in the same case hole, I don't see why not if it is a better connector.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:40:12
Changing out the connector... herm. Kinda annoying for those who got sleeved USB cables and what not, but I agree that we should go for more in and out cycles.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:43:31
Changing out the connector... herm. Kinda annoying for those who got sleeved USB cables and what not, but I agree that we should go for more in and out cycles.
Yes, that's the main problem I see - cables.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:45:42
On the other hand, almost every cellphone is a Micro USB, so not like they are in short supply. They are in short stylish supply. :))
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:54:09
I know we've talked about it already, but maybe we should consider changing USB mini to USB micro?
It's rated for more insertion cycles, and it is the kind of keyboard which you often plug and unplug...

YES please! Since these are custom designed PCB, we should break away from the mainstream connectors. The added reliability is a huge plus. I already have some micro USB parts with me so I'll add it to my prototype PCB.



alaricljs is correct.  OHP (OverHead Projector) plastic + paste layer + laser = cheap, quick and easy stencils :-)

It only takes 15-20min to manually apply all the solder paste. So making a stencil for 1 PCB, I already assumed you had access to all this stuff. But wouldn't it still be more time consuming to actually make the stencil + time it takes to apply spread the paste, vs just manually adding a small solder paste dot on each pad?



WhiteFireDragon, you are highly inspiring, and I will be pulling out my soldering equipment to finally get to work on my Poker and Filco mods. I hope to see more videos of you doing keyboard stuff on your channel :) .

Thanks. I'll eventually upload a bunch of other videos for modding. I have them in raw unedited files but just been too lazy to edit and upload. I'll probably do it closer to time when the phantom PCBs are done when people actually start to build their own.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 09 January 2013, 16:05:21
Micro USB sounds good to me. I have no attachment to Mini USB. I'll just have to order more Micro cables from MiMiC. He's doing one for me right now. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: osxoep on Wed, 09 January 2013, 16:07:07
+1 for Micro USB. Means I can take the keyboard with me and not really have to worry about cables. Most people I know non longer have mini USB cables but everyone has micro USB.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rknize on Wed, 09 January 2013, 16:11:23
WASD is going micro for the V2 as well.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 09 January 2013, 16:19:16
ORLY? Interesting. Good for them!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 09 January 2013, 16:22:12
Micro USB sounds good to me. I have no attachment to Mini USB. I'll just have to order more Micro cables from MiMiC. He's doing one for me right now. :)
whoo more cables i need a ned one as well cause i was going to use one of my aramis armor cable but its got mini
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 09 January 2013, 16:29:57
I'm not saying we're doing it, but I think the betatesters could vote for example.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 09 January 2013, 16:36:26
I'm not saying we're doing it, but I think the betatesters could vote for example.
I knew I should've been a beta tester. ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Wed, 09 January 2013, 16:52:23
We could support both, but have one of them presoldered. If someone dislikes it, they'll unsolder it and replace it with the other one.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Wed, 09 January 2013, 17:14:25
Can we source a socket with an identical PCB footprint?  That is the question...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Wed, 09 January 2013, 19:47:51
I already keep a couple micro-usb's in my bag for my phones and mifi so I'd be thrilled to not have to carry around another cable, since there's where I want this keyboard to live.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: fl0w3n on Wed, 09 January 2013, 20:33:05
Thanks. I'll eventually upload a bunch of other videos for modding. I have them in raw unedited files but just been too lazy to edit and upload. I'll probably do it closer to time when the phantom PCBs are done when people actually start to build their own.

I think what would be most helpful to me, and likely shouldn't be that hard for you to do, would be simply placing your camera on some sort of stand or resting somewhere...and just record you assembling the Phantom or GH60 from start to finish.  No need to talk and explain along the way, just simply sit down and assemble like you would anyways...just make sure camera is rolling.  Even if it was unedited, that may be even better, basically follow along in real time haha. 

Then, should any questions be had (as I know there would) people could simply ask details about what you did at X:XX time stamp. 

Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: danielucf on Wed, 09 January 2013, 23:12:11
I think the new WASD TKL is going to come with a micro for the increased durability. I'm all for it, but there are also simple adapters that you probably wouldn't see since it would be so close to the case.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Thu, 10 January 2013, 01:17:27
We could support both, but have one of them presoldered. If someone dislikes it, they'll unsolder it and replace it with the other one.

haha you say it like it'll be easy for everyone. There are 4 large pads and 4 small pins that has to be desoldered simultaneously. This is not possible with 1 iron, and that's assuming everyone will have 1 soldering iron. I think it needs to be left for the person to solder, or presoldered with the specified connector
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 03:30:30
We could support both, but have one of them presoldered. If someone dislikes it, they'll unsolder it and replace it with the other one.

haha you say it like it'll be easy for everyone. There are 4 large pads and 4 small pins that has to be desoldered simultaneously. This is not possible with 1 iron, and that's assuming everyone will have 1 soldering iron. I think it needs to be left for the person to solder, or presoldered with the specified connector
Well, yes. I was assuming that's for those who have hot-air stations. But since these can be cheaper than soldering irons sometimes, I do think it's a must-have.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:19:48
Speaking of hot air stations, any recommendations?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:21:21
My sister
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JPG on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:23:15
Highly recommanded?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:25:53
She blows hot air like no one else...

Aoyue has an inexpensive all in one station, some members have it or other models... available on amazon or sr-solder or ebay (and so forth).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:33:23
I own the previous version of this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/X-TRONIC-4040-HOT-AIR-REWORK-SOLDERING-IRON-STATION-/180672745995?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a10ef520b

I love it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: __red__ on Sat, 12 January 2013, 11:26:12
Bag-O-Blues just arrived yesterday...

Paper-based case prototype was built yesterday...

Currently deciding whether the Pi should be under the KB (making it a touch higher), to the side (a touch wider) or behind (a touch deeper).

Leaning deeper and considering also adding a breadboard + MCU interface ;-D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: epicsilas on Sat, 12 January 2013, 12:00:16
Bag-O-Blues just arrived yesterday...

Paper-based case prototype was built yesterday...

Currently deciding whether the Pi should be under the KB (making it a touch higher), to the side (a touch wider) or behind (a touch deeper).

Leaning deeper and considering also adding a breadboard + MCU interface ;-D
Really excited for this. Keep us updated! :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Sat, 12 January 2013, 12:10:42
Bag-O-Blues just arrived yesterday...

Paper-based case prototype was built yesterday...

Currently deciding whether the Pi should be under the KB (making it a touch higher), to the side (a touch wider) or behind (a touch deeper).

Leaning deeper and considering also adding a breadboard + MCU interface ;-D

Actually, that sounds like an awesome, and pretty practical idea.  It'll put everything right there in a place where you can work on it, and let you use the Pi to play with, rather than just using it as a low-end desktop. 

I too can't wait to see this develop, as I have a Pi sitting idle right now.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glod on Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:35:14
I may have skipped over the answer in one of the pages in this thread or another

will anybody be looking into plates for the GH60? possibly in an alternative layout than the previous poker plates?

I know it supports PCB mount but i've basically come to the realization i like the feel of a plate a whole lot better than without it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 12 January 2013, 18:19:46
Yes, a plate will definitely be offered for these. Hopefully someone can design an integrated case/plate like the Korean customs. Options for several switch layouts will be offered with whatever plate designs are made.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 12 January 2013, 19:41:10
whoo go GH60-PROF125 plate FTW!!!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glod on Sat, 12 January 2013, 20:01:59
whoo go GH60-PROF125 plate FTW!!!

i'd do your layout but keycaps though for the layout.....no wasd plz
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 12 January 2013, 20:05:14
whoo go GH60-PROF125 plate FTW!!!

i'd do your layout but keycaps though for the layout.....no wasd plz
o well you can use an iso set for most of it i think you could see if you could get blanks from SP I just went with WASD because I wanted my layout on the caps
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 12 January 2013, 22:27:31
GH60-PROF125 not available for prototypes huh?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 12 January 2013, 22:29:54
No plates for the prototype boards. Unless you have an extra Poker plate somewhere. But the plate isn't absolutely necessary, since the PCB supports PCB-mount switches.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 12 January 2013, 23:02:06
nope it doesnt work yet no split backspace but that in the works
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: FabsSpeed on Sun, 13 January 2013, 10:47:13
I would be interested. I am in for one :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mashby on Sun, 13 January 2013, 11:25:16
Quick question to make sure that I'm not missing something.

With the GH60, I will be able configure it to the "Pure Layout" listed in the OP (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg647300#msg647300) and then program the right modifiers to be the arrow keys?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:08:12
Sure, you will be able to program it however you wish with a multitude of physical layout options.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: FabsSpeed on Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:11:14
What aluminum cases are would fit the GH60?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: 4LI4Z on Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:32:01
It will fit in any Poker/Pure case, so you could use oneproducts, imstos, the Duck Poker case, etc..
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Preach on Sun, 13 January 2013, 18:25:19
This look very promising and very interesting.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: FabsSpeed on Mon, 14 January 2013, 00:24:45
It will fit in any Poker/Pure case, so you could use oneproducts, imstos, the Duck Poker case, etc..

I checked but these are non for sale? Al least the Duck Poker, etc I just found as GB and already made.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acetrak on Mon, 14 January 2013, 08:07:50
Yeah they exist but it doesn't mean they are available through retail sales. Most of them have been distributed and you will have to look for sales from current owners.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: GoatMaster on Tue, 15 January 2013, 08:15:36
i am interested, is there still the chance to join it?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JPG on Tue, 15 January 2013, 08:17:39
It is still in the beta phase. As far as I know, the group buy should start soon.

So you are not too late!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: FabsSpeed on Wed, 16 January 2013, 03:13:03
So when will these be for sale ? :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Broadmonkey on Wed, 16 January 2013, 03:31:14
Just wanted to add my layout. Still don't know if it should be with a split backspace.
(http://i.imgur.com/7fmFH.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: relcc on Wed, 16 January 2013, 04:48:48
Ok then, my preferred layout. A 'Pure'-style with 2-button-on-backspace.

(http://i.imgur.com/4brAF.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: noxwood on Thu, 17 January 2013, 19:20:22
Huh, relcc, that's the exact layout I've been thinking of for a while now. Quite nice.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: GMC on Fri, 18 January 2013, 01:11:03
Just wanted to add my layout. Still don't know if it should be with a split backspace.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/7fmFH.png)

If you split the backspace, I think this is my preferred layout, most keys would be swappable with an ISO 1800.  Just 3-4 bottom row keys to change.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Broadmonkey on Fri, 18 January 2013, 04:00:21
When we have to choose a plate I could easily be persuaded into the split backspace version. I just like not having an overly large spacebar on a very small keyboard as it always seemed like a waste, even though it looks great.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jspark on Fri, 18 January 2013, 08:15:59
for the case, why people don't make one of wood? If one has a router, it could be very easy to make one.
Personally, I do not have a router. So, I'm thinking about working with chisels.
Wooden cases would be inexpensive and look cool.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: GMC on Sat, 19 January 2013, 04:40:06
When we have to choose a plate I could easily be persuaded into the split backspace version. I just like not having an overly large spacebar on a very small keyboard as it always seemed like a waste, even though it looks great.
Really?
I have a couple of 10 unit spacebars and was wondering about using one of them.

Capslock would go and control would be there.
Bottom row would be 1.5, 10, 1.5
Alt, space, fn

Prob not very practical but I reckon would look cool
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 19 January 2013, 08:15:15
I wanted a 10-unit spacebar on kmiller8's 40% board. Bottom row would be 1.0-10-1.0. But he poo-pood the idea. ;)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Broadmonkey on Sat, 19 January 2013, 08:45:16
Wut? with a 10 unit spacebar you would actually have room for a 1.5, 1, 10, 1, 1.5. It would be useable on a daily basis and look like a real boss  :cool:

something like ctrl, alt, space, fn, win

(http://i.imgur.com/Z98nSOU.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 11:05:29
We need to start working on the plates.
The grand testing will start in a while and end soon.
I'm hoping to start the groupbuy in less than a month or earlier.
I have preliminary quotes from the assembler, there are people who want to offer switch soldering services.

The plates should take into account that some switches are rotated, so some of the switch holes have to have their clip cutouts on the top and bottom.
It would be good if we managed to have the plates done and tested no later than the assembled PCBs, so that the switch assemblers can get the plates together with everything else and start soldering without delays.
Kicad is not very good for designing plates, so I'm searching for someone with CAD skills who can choose a good program and draw the plates quickly.
I'll provide all the spacing information and dimensions.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mm87 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:22:40
Whoever is going to design the plates, please do it with the LZ style switch holes that allow opening of all switches without desoldering, including the ones with stabs (something like WFD did here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38623.0) for the new Phantom plates).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:26:24
Yes, WFD has told me he's doing it, so I'm sure he'll take that into account.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: GMC on Sat, 19 January 2013, 13:57:39
Wut? with a 10 unit spacebar you would actually have room for a 1.5, 1, 10, 1, 1.5. It would be useable on a daily basis and look like a real boss  :cool:

something like ctrl, alt, space, fn, win

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Z98nSOU.png)


That looks very cool.
Think capslock replaced with fn and bottom row ctrl, alt, space, win, alt gr in 1.5,1.0,10,1.0,1.5 or 1.25,1.25,10,1.25,1.25

Dug out one of the bars and potato pic below
 (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8224/8395153009_f4479ecbf0_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregormc/8395153009/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregormc/8395153009/) by Gregor.Mc (http://www.flickr.com/people/gregormc/), on Flickr
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: regack on Sat, 19 January 2013, 14:18:39
that is one crazy-huge spacebar.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 19 January 2013, 15:46:04
Yes, WFD has told me he's doing it, so I'm sure he'll take that into account.
make sure to remind him alot lately it seems hes been super busy
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: oneproduct on Sun, 20 January 2013, 15:49:00
I thought I read in another thread that someone said there'd be a split spacebar version? Or was I mistaken? Searching for "split spacebar" in this thread doesn't turn up anything, only split backspace.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 20 January 2013, 15:53:25
No plans for a split spacebar for the GH60. That's only the kmiller8 40% board. :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 22 January 2013, 02:42:17
In case you don't follow the beta testing thread for these, here is the switch hole design I came up with for the new plates I'm working on. This design allows for 3 important things:



That's all you really need to know. But if you're interested in knowing how it works or how I designed it, keep reading: I already have a stack of 45 TKL plates (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/plates/universalTKLcropped.jpg) all with the A holes, so it's already known to work. The GH60 PCB require some of the switches to be rotated 90 or 270, which the B hole accommodates to. But rather than make the plate have holes that are non-uniform, I came up with a switch that would allow any rotation (in multiples of 90 of course) so that all the holes in the plate would look the same. To do this, just combine A and B holes together to get hole C. However the problem with this is that if only the outline was cut out, the two plastic spring clips on the top and bottom edge of the switch won't be able to lock into the plate. There must be a cut in middle of the inside perimeter to account for this (the solid blue lines in hole C). The cut must be long enough so that the spring clips can lock, but short enough so that it doesn't interfere with the tabs to open up the switch. This magic number is between 0.167" and 0.240". I took tolerance into account, so specified that line to be 0.200". This inner perimeter line connected to the two outer perimeter lines on both sides will make some tabs on all 4 sides. If you darkened all the important lines and get rid of all the reference lines from hole C, then you get the resulting hole D, which is the final design of the switch hole.


This sounds somewhat technical, but I'm sure some of you will understand this gibberish  ^-^


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/plates/switchholesedited2.png)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/plates/th_switchholedesign3D.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v288/WhiteFireDragon/keyboard/plates/?action=view&current=switchholedesign3D.png)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 22 January 2013, 09:38:17
Very nice, WFD!

Can you send or publish a DWG of the hole so others can try it as well?

Thanks for all the plate work, and very good job on this one!

- Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JPG on Tue, 22 January 2013, 10:03:29
I understand that this is pretty amazing, simple in some way, and very brillant at the same time  :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: sordna on Thu, 24 January 2013, 13:02:43
In case you don't follow the beta testing thread for these, here is the switch hole design I came up with for the new plates I'm working on. This design allows for 3 important things:

  • any rotation orientation of the switch
  • opening of the top switch housing without desoldering
  • clamp the switch in place, and for the top/bottom plastic clips spring to lock.

This is AWESOME! Gosh, I might participate in this GB, although I'm getting the ErgoDox first.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: leesofi on Thu, 24 January 2013, 14:20:15
i hope still adding led holes
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tauburn on Thu, 24 January 2013, 22:30:20
approximately how much would one of these cost?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 24 January 2013, 23:03:56
Cost will be highly variable. It depends on what you want and how good you are at sourcing the rest of the parts. For bare minimum with luck, I would plan for at least $80 in final cost if you don't have anything at all on hand. Should cover buying a used board to harvest switch, stabs and keycaps from, and being lucky enough to get a good price on a plastic Poker/Pure case in addition to the GH60 pcb.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: ishumprod on Wed, 30 January 2013, 10:01:13
I'm in for one, depending on price, but i'm 90% in.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Broadmonkey on Wed, 30 January 2013, 13:59:27
Soooo... I know I am really late on this (and don't know if it has been debated yet) but what is the possibilities of adding LED support on some key locations like esc, (split)backspace, W,A,S,D and the 1U to the right of a 1.75 right shift?
For me, it would be okay if I would have to wire it up myself, as long as there is holes for it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gnubag on Wed, 30 January 2013, 14:23:54
will be a plastic (cheap) case for it? because the alu case will be super expensive for a student...

also i tried to rotate some keycaps on my rosewill keyboard ( i will be using the switches and keycaps from it) and they wouldn't fit.
They just don't fit.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 30 January 2013, 14:26:26
The problem is having to have so many holes drilled in the PCB. We already have to drill quite a few due to the PCB mounts for the switches, and more would increase cost for the PCB.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 30 January 2013, 14:32:26
Will the PCB support cherry and filco caps lock position or just one?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Caaaarrrt on Wed, 30 January 2013, 15:42:25
Will the PCB support cherry and filco caps lock position or just one?

Looking at the images of the PCB it seems to support both as there are two holes to put the switch in at the caps lock position.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 30 January 2013, 15:56:24
Will the PCB support cherry and filco caps lock position or just one?

Looking at the images of the PCB it seems to support both as there are two holes to put the switch in at the caps lock position.

I thought so, but I just wanted to double check
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Gupgup on Wed, 30 January 2013, 22:25:13
Is it still possible to get in on this?

Edit: Checked op.. My bad!

Can't wait for this, will definitely be in for one! I'd love a winkeyless one!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 30 January 2013, 22:26:18
Is it still possible to get in on this?

It hasn't even started, it's an IC that has done a prototype. Just wait for the GB, it should be here soonish
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Gupgup on Wed, 30 January 2013, 22:29:32
Is it still possible to get in on this?

It hasn't even started, it's an IC that has done a prototype. Just wait for the GB, it should be here soonish

Awesome! Will have to sell my poker to be able to fund this bad boy, oh well 60% for 60%!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: The_Beast on Wed, 30 January 2013, 22:43:17
Is it still possible to get in on this?

It hasn't even started, it's an IC that has done a prototype. Just wait for the GB, it should be here soonish

Awesome! Will have to sell my poker to be able to fund this bad boy, oh well 60% for 60%!

Same here, maybe


I REALLY like my poker
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 30 January 2013, 23:02:10
Same, maybe someone would like a poker without switches?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Glissant on Thu, 31 January 2013, 04:33:27
I'll take a Poker PCB if it isn't too expensive ;).
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 31 January 2013, 09:05:37
I have a poker PCB right now if you're serious.  Never soldered :)  PM me
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: multipla on Thu, 31 January 2013, 09:14:29
I'd take the case maybe, if you don't need it ;)

Edit: forget about that, I don't need one anymore.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 31 January 2013, 10:20:05
Totally interested!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: do_Og@n on Sun, 03 February 2013, 00:41:02
I would love one with the ANSI winkeyless. Super Interested!!!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rknize on Sun, 03 February 2013, 00:50:18
It would be nice to have an extra LED or two to indicate any active layer locking.  Not sure if the Atmega has the extra pins for it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mashby on Sun, 03 February 2013, 11:24:00
A question about the plates...

When this converts into a GB and we're at the ordering stage for plates, I'm curious if the plates being designed would work on a KBT Pure. If so, I can see ordering an extra plate.

Maybe too soon to ask, but figured I'd ask anyway.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:47:18
A question about the plates...

When this converts into a GB and we're at the ordering stage for plates, I'm curious if the plates being designed would work on a KBT Pure. If so, I can see ordering an extra plate.

Maybe too soon to ask, but figured I'd ask anyway.

I designed a plate for he GH60 which will work with the Pure. When the GB happens, it will likely be an option.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vorn on Tue, 05 February 2013, 06:41:57
Every day I refresh this thread at least 5 times, and then when there's nothing new I end up perusing the interwebs trying to decide what colour keycaps I'm going to get. No other keyboard will satisfy me after watching this project!!

Question.. what size o-ring is recommended for blue switches? Would any of the available o-rings conflict with the auditory feedback of the blues?

Also, blues probably wouldn't be best for the spacebar. Maybe some reds for the modifiers?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Acetrak on Tue, 05 February 2013, 07:44:07
Every day I refresh this thread at least 5 times, and then when there's nothing new I end up perusing the interwebs trying to decide what colour keycaps I'm going to get. No other keyboard will satisfy me after watching this project!!

Question.. what size o-ring is recommended for blue switches? Would any of the available o-rings conflict with the auditory feedback of the blues?

Also, blues probably wouldn't be best for the spacebar. Maybe some reds for the modifiers?
Your questions are kinda off topic so it might be a good idea to make a new thread if you're looking for detailed answers.

Quickly answering your questions though, o-rings has more to do with the keycaps you use not really relevant to the switches. It is also based on personal preference so I don't think there are any recommendations, just gotta try it out yourself to see if you like it.

Yes the o-rings will affect the auditory feedback, this will depend on what o-ring you use. There are o-rings that affect the sound less though (they're thinner).

Blues can be fine for the space bar, however often times a switch with the same stem but heavier spring is used for the space bar (green, white) to prevent the space bar feeling mushy. I would not mesh linear (red, black) switches with tactile (blue, brown, clear) ones on the same board due to drastic difference in feel, unless that's what you're going for.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: vorn on Tue, 05 February 2013, 08:43:06
Sorry for off-topic. Thanks for the reply though!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: netdevil on Wed, 06 February 2013, 00:08:03
Interested! Any latest updates?  ;D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: thcipriani on Wed, 06 February 2013, 23:06:34
Interested as well
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: GeorgeK on Sun, 10 February 2013, 12:41:38
Interested too!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: adrock on Sun, 10 February 2013, 16:16:16
also very interested
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Sun, 10 February 2013, 17:52:17
Noticed the beta thread has quieted down and hadn't heard anything here in a little while.  Are we nearing groupbuy time yet?  Anything that can be done to help?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 10 February 2013, 19:06:50
Pretty sure komar is just trying to find time to finish the final revisions to the PCB before the GB can begin. Last I heard, he was trying to decide whether he could make all the switches fit without rotating any of them 90 degrees.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 11 February 2013, 04:42:33
Sorry for not posting for some time. I was on holidays.
I'd like to start the group buy soon.
I've fixed the C3 problem, and we could start in days. But I still don't know if the rotated switches are ok with the most of you.
I still need to look into the split backspace thing, since it seems many people want it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Halverson on Mon, 11 February 2013, 04:46:41
Sorry for not posting for some time. I was on holidays.
I'd like to start the group buy soon.
I've fixed the C3 problem, and we could start in days. But I still don't know if the rotated switches are ok with the most of you.
I still need to look into the split backspace thing, since it seems many people want it.

Welcome back!
I'm excited to get this GB underway, but I would quite like the split backspace option.
As for rotated switches, doesn't matter to me.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Loligagger on Mon, 11 February 2013, 04:55:28
Sorry for not posting for some time. I was on holidays.
I'd like to start the group buy soon.
I've fixed the C3 problem, and we could start in days. But I still don't know if the rotated switches are ok with the most of you.
I still need to look into the split backspace thing, since it seems many people want it.

The rotated switches really aren't a bother.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 11 February 2013, 06:35:08
I don't mind the rotated switches. I would like the split backspace option, if possible.

Thanks for the update, komar! :)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: regack on Mon, 11 February 2013, 07:30:34
I don't mind the rotated switches. I would like the split backspace option, if possible.

Thanks for the update, komar! :)

Just going to echo everything jdcarpe said...
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: mashby on Mon, 11 February 2013, 07:46:17
Just as a point of clarification, the GH60 will not have backlighting, correct?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: komar007 on Mon, 11 February 2013, 07:47:20
Correct.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gnubag on Mon, 11 February 2013, 11:24:48
Two questions.

is somebody making a plastic case?
do we have to smd mount components in the final revision (thought i read something about this earlier)?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: SmallFry on Mon, 11 February 2013, 11:26:34
I don't believe that anyone is making a plastic case, WFD and Beast are making aluminum cases.

SMD soldering will be done by the fabricator during the final production, IIRC.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: zoidbergslo on Mon, 11 February 2013, 11:37:48
did you decide between micro and mini usb?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: noxwood on Mon, 11 February 2013, 11:47:46
Which layouts require a rotated switch?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gnubag on Mon, 11 February 2013, 11:53:38
Which layouts require a rotated switch?

i think all because some modifieres and the escape keys (some more?) are rotated 90 or 270 degree.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 11 February 2013, 12:14:29
It's the bottom row of switches that needed to be rotated because there were so many different possible positions. Otherwise without rotation some overlap. It was easiset solution to have all of them and have a secure mounting. It's not even a problem so I am not sure why anyone cares about this at all.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JPG on Mon, 11 February 2013, 12:52:18
I think that the real problem is the lack of information about the effect of having some switches rotated. The only info I got on this is that it can cause your keycaps to be "stretched" and so they would be loose if you would put them on not rotated switches after. But I am not sure if this information was accurate or not.

Personnaly, it would bother me if it would cause a set of keycaps to be only good for this keybord once you put them on it, put that's only IF that is the case.

So I think that if someone just clarified on the impacts of having some rotated switch on the keycaps it would help to take a decision because if it has relatively no impact then who cares, but if it does then maybe it will require a decision. Or at least, people will know when they order it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 11 February 2013, 12:58:42
I have had keyboards where the entire thing was rotated 90, every switch. I saw no difference from a usage or feeling perspective, and had no issues with keycap either. The only con I expeirenced is the keycap are a little harder to remove since they have a tighter fit. A bit more care might be needed on pcb mount when remove keycap as pulling too hard can pull out the stem with it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gnubag on Mon, 11 February 2013, 13:48:07
So i tried it out with the rotated switch/keycap stuff.

1. rosewill keycaps, some of them are a very tight fit, some don't even fit. not sure what will happen if i force them on.

2. KBT pbt keycaps (from the oni) , they do not fit at all.

3. Keycaps from the razer black widow, all are a tight fit.

i have no idea what can happen overtime, but i think i have seen WASD keyboards with the rotated esc key (?)

also how about distributing the gh60 over massdrop (parallel to the gb here)like the ergo dox (eventhough the gh60 does not come with a cheap case)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: laffindude on Mon, 11 February 2013, 16:04:48
A bit more care might be needed on pcb mount when remove keycap as pulling too hard can pull out the stem with it.
I see people pulling out the switches along with the traces.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 11 February 2013, 18:47:20
Rotated switches could be a problem, but that really depends on the specific cap and switch:

I have some brand new mx clear switches that are already dam stiff as is to get caps in, and once you get them in, they're extremely hard to get off. Now if these same switches are rotated, it will be near impossible to get them on. If you do happen to get them on, I don't see how you're going to get them off without ripping the whole switch off the PCB/plate, along with some traces. Some stems are extremely tight even when not rotated, some batches aren't. The point is that not all are made equally.

Now as for caps, the tolerances will also vary between different caps. Some are really tight and will be nearly impossible to even get it on a rotated switch, but most should work. If you do happen to get it on, some will retain the grip pretty well, and some will be permanently loose. For example, imsto's caps are thick PBT caps, but ironically they are the loosest caps I have after only 1 or 2 installations. If you even think about turning them sideways and mount it, they will become looser than a women that just had 10 fat children.

So it really depends on what switches and caps you have, and if you'll be transferring the cap sets between different keyboards. I personally don't care, but would rather bring this up for people that do care about this aspect.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: sordna on Mon, 11 February 2013, 19:03:32
So the keycapcap cruciform opening is not symmetrical? I thought it was. Anyway, whenever I notice a keycap is not easy to install, I just turn it upside down, and push hard on the opening with a fat philips screwdriver to loosen it up.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: JPG on Mon, 11 February 2013, 19:43:38
Reading these answers, I must say that I would personnaly prefer to have the switches not rotated. But that's just my own opinion.

Also, I don't know any of the details of making a pcb, but I was thinking that if we get a GB big enough, would it not be easier to make like 2 different pcb layout, both very similar but one to support layouts ABC and another to support layouts DEF so that we would not need to rotate the switches?

Just an idea like that, I don't know if it's even possible.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gnubag on Mon, 11 February 2013, 19:47:37
true that.
i would like a pcb what works with 100% with any keycap/mxswitch combination.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Mon, 11 February 2013, 19:52:01
I think the switch rotation issue is mostly speculation at this point.  From what I;m hearing there are plenty of examples of rotated switches in the wild. 

Did any of the early testers have issue?  Has anyone actually experienced negative repercussions of 90 degree rotated switches? Or all issues, at this point, hypothetical?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheQsanity on Mon, 11 February 2013, 20:00:18
WFD, have you shipped all the GH60s yet?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 11 February 2013, 20:04:36
I still don't have mine, because I screwed up telling WFD what stuff I needed done and made a delay for myself.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 11 February 2013, 20:13:50
I think the switch rotation issue is mostly speculation at this point.  From what I;m hearing there are plenty of examples of rotated switches in the wild. 

Did any of the early testers have issue?  Has anyone actually experienced negative repercussions of 90 degree rotated switches? Or all issues, at this point, hypothetical?

How is it speculation? You don't have to be a beta tester to find out. Just take any cap you don't value and turn it sideways and mount it on a switch. You can test the difference of rotated vs non-rotated, and combinations of different keycaps and switches.


WFD, have you shipped all the GH60s yet?

Hey this reminded me. I just sent you a PM about it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rknize on Mon, 11 February 2013, 20:45:55
OK, I had a loose stem sitting here, so I tried a bunch of different keys:

- Vintage Cherry DS: I tried a few different caps (mods and alpha) from different sets.  They are a bit stiffer when rotated 90^ and don't snap onto the little notch in the top of the cross, but seem OK.

- SP: I'm pretty sure these are symmetrical in all four positions (which is why the Costar stabs fall out).  No problem.

- Vintage Wyse: very tight and the cap cracked and split open when I forced it on.

- "OEM" ABS: very tight, but managed to get it on and off.

- "OEM" PBT: very tight.  Needed pliers to get the stem out.

As it stands, I would prefer non-rotated switches.  If we proceed like this, I will probably modify the stems of those switches so that I don't run into problems.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 11 February 2013, 20:51:15
^ See told you. Some caps work, some are very tight, and some just won't. Lol you cracked your vintage cap... that's no bueno especially if it's from a rare set. And any time they're tight enough where you need pliers, that means you're at a huge risk of ripping the switch right off the PCB.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Mon, 11 February 2013, 21:15:01
Wow, that's nuts.  I've spot checked with a few caps of my own and had no real issues other than they're a little snug-er.
Old WYSE (Doubleshot ABS)
WASD (ABS)
Signature Plastics (Doubleshot ABS)
QWERKeys (ABS)
"Thin" PBT Set

Now I'm using some old Cherry Black switches I have, but I didn't use anything to install or remove the caps other than my fingers, and the switch was plate-mounted.  I could feel a difference on some caps rotating them, but nothing like cracking or any real stress.  The PBT ones were the "worst" but nothing I would feel uncomfortable installing.

But that said, I guess I haven't been thinking about PCB-mounting the things, either.  That really does make things a little different.  And I can't think of a PCB mounted board with rotated switches.

And a cracked cap is a definitive bad thing observed on a rotated stem.  I'm not 100% against, but at this point I can say I'd prefer not rotated.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rknize on Mon, 11 February 2013, 21:24:12
Vintage caps are going to be more likely to crack, depending how brittle the plastic has become.

(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/keyboard-wyse-crack.jpg)

Sorry about the wysecrack.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: inteli722 on Mon, 11 February 2013, 21:35:01
Vintage caps are going to be more likely to crack, depending how brittle the plastic has become.

Show Image
(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/keyboard-wyse-crack.jpg)


Sorry about the wysecrack.

poor switch...

Sorry about the wysecrack.

I see what you did there!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 11 February 2013, 22:00:53
For the aluminum housing ballast weights. has anyone suggested nickles or pennies?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: salmo on Mon, 11 February 2013, 22:08:32
Sorry about the wysecrack.
So sad...  Goodbye little soldier.  At least your demise served to teach us all a valuable lesson about the dangers of stem rotation and vintage plastics.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: gnubag on Mon, 11 February 2013, 22:35:06
For the aluminum housing ballast weights. has anyone suggested nickles or pennies?
nice one, you can just get them out of a wishing well.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Tue, 12 February 2013, 03:35:55
Tested some of my keycaps as well at 90 degree rotation:

SP ABS DS: no problem (they are loose in first place)
KBC PBT (thin): Hard to get on, imo more loose afterwards
KBC ABS: Hard to get on, not sure if more loose afterwards
Scarface Al caps: Very hard to get on, stem gets damaged!
Imsto Ti caps: Hard to get on, slight wear on stem visible
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: sordna on Tue, 12 February 2013, 09:14:55
This is a bad design desicion of Cherry I guess... they should have made the stem symmetrical to allow any rotation. I guess one must be extra careful when installing blank spherical keycaps, since you can't easily tell which orientation is right!
This picture from my Kinesis modification, where I added extra switches (some of them rotated) shows the difference in thickness of the sides of the stems clearly I think...

(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3337;image)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 12 February 2013, 10:44:23
Someone just backed out of their prototype PCB, so I still have one left if anyone wants it. It's basically what the final production board will be (if the final one will have rotated switches).

edit: swooped!
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: sordna on Tue, 12 February 2013, 10:46:52
Does it have the surface-mount components installed already? Also, is it free / what are my responsibilities if I pick this up?
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 12 February 2013, 11:17:34
I wish all keyboard-related stuff were free  ^-^ . I haven't touched it yet, so it's not soldered. You can do that yourself, or arrange it with me. Might take me a week or two though.

By picking this up, you assume the responsibility of solving all first world problems. You also must explain why the universe is the way it is.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 12 February 2013, 11:17:59
Sent you a PM, WFD. I have a plan for it.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: sordna on Tue, 12 February 2013, 11:42:46
EDIT:
I don't need this board if you have other plans, I have the ErgoDox soldering to focus on first :-)
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: rknize on Tue, 12 February 2013, 17:37:06
If there are unsoldered prototypes still available, I'll pick one up.  I can slobber SMD.
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: Luke on Tue, 12 February 2013, 18:37:22
Hey, just seen this thread for the first time and I am very interested in this. Only problem is that I haven't had any experience with custom mechanical keyboards before, I only have basic soldering skills at best, is something like this suitable for people like me? :D
Title: Re: [Final Prototyping] GH60 Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 12 February 2013, 19:10:58
Yes, MX swit