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geekhack Marketplace => Vendor Forums => Signature Plastics / PimpMyKeyboard => Topic started by: LXXXIX on Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:29:33

Title: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: LXXXIX on Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:29:33
Can we have an official statement regarding this issue.

It's been brought up to the community that MD gets a bigger discount after breaking certain MOQs/Tiers. If we face the same challenges, why don't we get the same privileges they do?
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: harlw on Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:47:14
They pay professional negotiators, promise better organization, and a consistent business relationship.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: tronbeaver on Wed, 27 January 2016, 10:47:32
They pay professional negotiators, promise better organization, and a consistent business relationship.

You make that sound like it is a good thing.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Zorberema on Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:05:45
They pay professional negotiators, promise better organization, and a consistent business relationship.

You make that sound like it is a good thing.

When they make deals with massdrop, they're almost guaranteed for a huge success (See the last sets sold on massdrop). Thus they make the MOQ's drop-points lower, as they know they will reach the higher numbers anyways. It may not be the absolute best for the community, but I can certainly see why they do it from a buisness standpoint.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Sifo on Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:20:34
As if those successes don't often originate from geekhack, and as if we haven't been working with SP for years before the mechanical keyboard boom that we've seen in the past year or two.

And better organization from MD? Lol.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:24:00
MD still has to manually update prices in their system for the different child sets for keycaps.

Not to mention the flop that was that japanese DSA dye sub that came around recently because they were not transparent at all with their sales / final prices.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:36:11
Can we have an official statement regarding this issue.

It's been brought up to the community that MD gets a bigger discount after breaking certain MOQs/Tiers. If we face the same challenges, why don't we get the same privileges they do?

MassDrop may have negotiated better pricing based on overall volume.  I would expect them to try to do so.

We do not get the same privileges because we are running individual group buys and those that have run multiples are still at a much lower volume than what MassDrop has put forward thus far.  Beyond that, MassDrop has a wider set of buyers than any direct community-run set could likely ever hope for.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:42:30
MD still has to manually update prices in their system for the different child sets for keycaps.

Not to mention the flop that was that japanese DSA dye sub that came around recently because they were not transparent at all with their sales / final prices.

These strike me as relatively minor and fixable problems. Plus, from what I can tell, these problems are systemic and should impact every set sold on MassDrop, yet they haven't resulted in "flop" outcomes for other sets (Carbon, Danger Zone, Troubled Minds, Granite r4, etc.). I'd say that while these problems definitely need to be addressed, they can't be faulted for producing flops. Any set with sufficient demand will just power through such minor glitches.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:48:55
MD still has to manually update prices in their system for the different child sets for keycaps.

Not to mention the flop that was that japanese DSA dye sub that came around recently because they were not transparent at all with their sales / final prices.

These strike me as relatively minor and fixable problems. Plus, from what I can tell, these problems are systemic and should impact every set sold on MassDrop, yet they haven't resulted in "flop" outcomes for other sets (Carbon, Danger Zone, Troubled Minds, Granite r4, etc.). I'd say that while these problems definitely need to be addressed, they can't be faulted for producing flops. Any set with sufficient demand will just power through such minor glitches.

Looking at the sets that flopped vs those that did well, the sets that flopped didn't seem to be priced well on massdrop.

The Japanese DSA set that I'm referencing was about $300 for a handful of sets at the starting price and didn't update the prices once throughout the entire buy.

Such a platform that is used to reach the mass public and that generates profits for the company really should have known better than to put the starting price of a set at $200+ for a TKL.

IIRC the McDonalds keycap set also did poorly on massdrop for the same reason. It was like... $90? for a handful of novelty DSA keys.

With granite where the interest was there before massdrop they can be sure that they'll get bulk orders in regardless.

Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:52:03
It may not be the absolute best for the community, but I can certainly see why they do it from a buisness standpoint.

I guess it depends on what you consider "best for the community". It is also helpful, I think, to realize that the community is no longer the only customer base involved. In fact, the hardcore mech keyboard community may soon be eclipsed by the casual buyers on MassDrop, if it hasn't been already.

I think maybe it's time for "the community" to sit back and take pride in what it started, but then let go and let it take on whatever shape it is going to take. You gave birth to a hobby which is now maturing into a business. Things are different now.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Wed, 27 January 2016, 12:58:51
MD still has to manually update prices in their system for the different child sets for keycaps.

Not to mention the flop that was that japanese DSA dye sub that came around recently because they were not transparent at all with their sales / final prices.

These strike me as relatively minor and fixable problems. Plus, from what I can tell, these problems are systemic and should impact every set sold on MassDrop, yet they haven't resulted in "flop" outcomes for other sets (Carbon, Danger Zone, Troubled Minds, Granite r4, etc.). I'd say that while these problems definitely need to be addressed, they can't be faulted for producing flops. Any set with sufficient demand will just power through such minor glitches.

Looking at the sets that flopped vs those that did well, the sets that flopped didn't seem to be priced well on massdrop.

The Japanese DSA set that I'm referencing was about $300 for a handful of sets at the starting price and didn't update the prices once throughout the entire buy.

Such a platform that is used to reach the mass public and that generates profits for the company really should have known better than to put the starting price of a set at $200+ for a TKL.

IIRC the McDonalds keycap set also did poorly on massdrop for the same reason. It was like... $90? for a handful of novelty DSA keys.

With granite where the interest was there before massdrop they can be sure that they'll get bulk orders in regardless.

Okay, well, now you are bringing up a different issue. Before it was the weakness of a manual system for updating order counts and price drops, and not being "transparent" about pricing (i.e., explaining the "why" behind the prices). Now you are blaming prices that were simply too high.

I agree that being priced too high can kill a drop. That is not an easily fixed problem (from MassDrop's point of view).

However, the two you originally mentioned are easily fixed, and I still maintain that even with flakey manual updates and opaque pricing (you know, like pretty much everything you buy retail), sets with a large base of interest will not fail just because of that.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Zorberema on Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:00:45
As if those successes don't often originate from geekhack, and as if we haven't been working with SP for years before the mechanical keyboard boom that we've seen in the past year or two.

And better organization from MD? Lol.

That is not at all what I meant! Close to all of the sets featured on MD wouldn't have been made if it weren't for GH. It is not like they are giving MD lower MOQ's to disrespect the Geekhack community, it's simply because they are 99% certain that higher quantities than the ones set will be reached. With community driven GB's, there's a much bigger chance of failure due to reaching out to fewer people, thus the higher MOQ's. Once again, I am of course not saying that this is something that I think is good, but from a buisness standpoint it is much better for SP.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: cryptokey on Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:01:52
I think maybe it's time for "the community" to sit back and take pride in what it started, but then let go and let it take on whatever shape it is going to take. You gave birth to a hobby which is now maturing into a business. Things are different now.

Are you suggesting that GH should stop conducting their own group buys and feed designs to MD/PMK?
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:03:41
MD still has to manually update prices in their system for the different child sets for keycaps.

Not to mention the flop that was that japanese DSA dye sub that came around recently because they were not transparent at all with their sales / final prices.

These strike me as relatively minor and fixable problems. Plus, from what I can tell, these problems are systemic and should impact every set sold on MassDrop, yet they haven't resulted in "flop" outcomes for other sets (Carbon, Danger Zone, Troubled Minds, Granite r4, etc.). I'd say that while these problems definitely need to be addressed, they can't be faulted for producing flops. Any set with sufficient demand will just power through such minor glitches.

Looking at the sets that flopped vs those that did well, the sets that flopped didn't seem to be priced well on massdrop.

The Japanese DSA set that I'm referencing was about $300 for a handful of sets at the starting price and didn't update the prices once throughout the entire buy.

Such a platform that is used to reach the mass public and that generates profits for the company really should have known better than to put the starting price of a set at $200+ for a TKL.

IIRC the McDonalds keycap set also did poorly on massdrop for the same reason. It was like... $90? for a handful of novelty DSA keys.

With granite where the interest was there before massdrop they can be sure that they'll get bulk orders in regardless.

Okay, well, now you are bringing up a different issue. Before it was the weakness of a manual system for updating order counts and price drops, and not being "transparent" about pricing (i.e., explaining the "why" behind the prices). Now you are blaming prices that were simply too high.

I agree that being priced too high can kill a drop. That is not an easily fixed problem (from MassDrop's point of view).

However, the two you originally mentioned are easily fixed, and I still maintain that even with flakey manual updates and opaque pricing (you know, like pretty much everything you buy retail), sets with a large base of interest will not fail just because of that.

Large interest that is generated off site would suggest that the same group buy can be done by another group that is non profit or lower profit than massdrop.

Both the keysets that I mentioned are sets that were not promoted elsewhere before the sale started, had poor transparency / manual price updates (which were almost never actually updated) and lack of communication from the massdrop team.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:07:24
I think maybe it's time for "the community" to sit back and take pride in what it started, but then let go and let it take on whatever shape it is going to take. You gave birth to a hobby which is now maturing into a business. Things are different now.

Are you suggesting that GH should stop conducting their own group buys and feed designs to MD/PMK?

Not at all.

I am, however, suggesting that GH should realize that it is now competing with a large business entity that does the same thing, and that economies of scale and other normal business forces will put GH-run group buys at a substantial disadvantage. GH needs to adapt to this new reality, and boycotting SP or MassDrop or beating the drums of indignation isn't going to help the cause.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:13:11
I think maybe it's time for "the community" to sit back and take pride in what it started, but then let go and let it take on whatever shape it is going to take. You gave birth to a hobby which is now maturing into a business. Things are different now.

Are you suggesting that GH should stop conducting their own group buys and feed designs to MD/PMK?

Personally, I would prefer such.  It gives me a centralized company to deal with across multiple buys.  It helps to eliminate the debacles that some sets have gone through with people on 1-2 year waits for sets they've purchased in some cases.  The designer of the set even gets some money in the process. 

If the community can come up with a new entity that can handle funneling group buys for it, that would also work. 
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: cryptokey on Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:19:18
I think maybe it's time for "the community" to sit back and take pride in what it started, but then let go and let it take on whatever shape it is going to take. You gave birth to a hobby which is now maturing into a business. Things are different now.

Are you suggesting that GH should stop conducting their own group buys and feed designs to MD/PMK?

Not at all.

I am, however, suggesting that GH should realize that it is now competing with a large business entity that does the same thing, and that economies of scale and other normal business forces will put GH-run group buys at a substantial disadvantage. GH needs to adapt to this new reality, and boycotting SP or MassDrop or beating the drums of indignation isn't going to help the cause.

The existence of this thread is proof that GH realizes it has competition for running GBs.  I agree that boycotting and indignation is not a solution, so that's why LXXXIX started this thread.  The OP is not whining or boycotting, it is inquiring with SP about why MD gets larger discounts than community-run buys, despite us facing the same challenges.  I've noticed that many have brought up some strong points as to why MD may get bigger discounts, however until we get a statement from SP, we can only speculate as to why.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:34:37
I think maybe it's time for "the community" to sit back and take pride in what it started, but then let go and let it take on whatever shape it is going to take. You gave birth to a hobby which is now maturing into a business. Things are different now.

Are you suggesting that GH should stop conducting their own group buys and feed designs to MD/PMK?

Not at all.

I am, however, suggesting that GH should realize that it is now competing with a large business entity that does the same thing, and that economies of scale and other normal business forces will put GH-run group buys at a substantial disadvantage. GH needs to adapt to this new reality, and boycotting SP or MassDrop or beating the drums of indignation isn't going to help the cause.

The existence of this thread is proof that GH realizes it has competition for running GBs.  I agree that boycotting and indignation is not a solution, so that's why LXXXIX started this thread.  The OP is not whining or boycotting, it is inquiring with SP about why MD gets larger discounts than community-run buys, despite us facing the same challenges.  I've noticed that many have brought up some strong points as to why MD may get bigger discounts, however until we get a statement from SP, we can only speculate as to why.

True to a point. A lot of members just seem to be in denial. Unable to reconcile the current landscape with the significant role the community has played up to this point. One gets the feeling that no statement of SP is going to satisfy them as it will inevitably revolve around pricing policies that reward economies of scale and business contracts that the community would not qualify for.

In fact, pricing based on volume and other production-oriented concerns (how many of what key are in each kit, for example) are so standard in modern business that such concepts shouldn't even be considered "specualtion". In fact, any other sinister explanation would be speculation, but it seems to be the conclusion many folks want to leap to first. It's as if it is unthinkable that a large entity like MassDrop would qualify for big discounts, but quite reasonable that SP wants to alienate GH and screw them over out of sheer capitalistic greed.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Dernubenfrieken on Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:35:28
MD still has to manually update prices in their system for the different child sets for keycaps.

Not to mention the flop that was that japanese DSA dye sub that came around recently because they were not transparent at all with their sales / final prices.

These strike me as relatively minor and fixable problems. Plus, from what I can tell, these problems are systemic and should impact every set sold on MassDrop, yet they haven't resulted in "flop" outcomes for other sets (Carbon, Danger Zone, Troubled Minds, Granite r4, etc.). I'd say that while these problems definitely need to be addressed, they can't be faulted for producing flops. Any set with sufficient demand will just power through such minor glitches.

Looking at the sets that flopped vs those that did well, the sets that flopped didn't seem to be priced well on massdrop.

The Japanese DSA set that I'm referencing was about $300 for a handful of sets at the starting price and didn't update the prices once throughout the entire buy.

Such a platform that is used to reach the mass public and that generates profits for the company really should have known better than to put the starting price of a set at $200+ for a TKL.

IIRC the McDonalds keycap set also did poorly on massdrop for the same reason. It was like... $90? for a handful of novelty DSA keys.

With granite where the interest was there before massdrop they can be sure that they'll get bulk orders in regardless.

Yeah otaku and elementos had major issues with the setup/quantities of child kits, and horrible initial pricing tiers. The exact same thing happened to Dusk IIRC, and the sticker shock makes people scared to buy in. People need to learn to include stuff like TKL and modifiers to keep the initial sticker shock down, and to use higher MOQ's to be more realistic about the final price.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Wed, 27 January 2016, 14:15:53
MD still has to manually update prices in their system for the different child sets for keycaps.

Not to mention the flop that was that japanese DSA dye sub that came around recently because they were not transparent at all with their sales / final prices.

These strike me as relatively minor and fixable problems. Plus, from what I can tell, these problems are systemic and should impact every set sold on MassDrop, yet they haven't resulted in "flop" outcomes for other sets (Carbon, Danger Zone, Troubled Minds, Granite r4, etc.). I'd say that while these problems definitely need to be addressed, they can't be faulted for producing flops. Any set with sufficient demand will just power through such minor glitches.

Looking at the sets that flopped vs those that did well, the sets that flopped didn't seem to be priced well on massdrop.

The Japanese DSA set that I'm referencing was about $300 for a handful of sets at the starting price and didn't update the prices once throughout the entire buy.

Such a platform that is used to reach the mass public and that generates profits for the company really should have known better than to put the starting price of a set at $200+ for a TKL.

IIRC the McDonalds keycap set also did poorly on massdrop for the same reason. It was like... $90? for a handful of novelty DSA keys.

With granite where the interest was there before massdrop they can be sure that they'll get bulk orders in regardless.

Yeah otaku and elementos had major issues with the setup/quantities of child kits, and horrible initial pricing tiers. The exact same thing happened to Dusk IIRC, and the sticker shock makes people scared to buy in. People need to learn to include stuff like TKL and modifiers to keep the initial sticker shock down, and to use higher MOQ's to be more realistic about the final price.

A company like massdrop should be at least forecasting the expected sales of the sets if they were priced at a flat price (+/- a few dollars) and should set the initial price based on what looks optimal.

Instead of $200 for the TKL for the otaku set, maybe if they gathered interest before hand they could have easily estimated, I don't know, 200 sets sold at the $100 range which would significantly boosted the numbers sold.

Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Wed, 27 January 2016, 14:29:11
I get the sense that there is often a substantial discrepency between the number of people who express interest during an IC or voting period, and the number of people who actually commit funds to a pre-order, especially for something they suddenly learn isn't going to ship for many months. It can't be easy to predict actual order numbers for something like keycap sets. Estimates must, out of necessity, be very rough and actual prices will obviously be dynamic, reflecting actual purchase volume.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 27 January 2016, 14:33:26
One problem with Otaku was that they started at a very low order point for pricing.  The initial shell shock of that seems to have helped steer people away.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Jedi on Thu, 28 January 2016, 08:29:32
There is always a "substantial discrepancy (sp) between the number of people who express interest during an IC or voting period, and the number of people who actually commit", this is marketing 101.  Its called conversion factor and it is very easy to predict for a company that monitors its runs and sales as I am certain Massdrop does (ever wonder what that request or voting button is meant for?), in fact every marketing company I have worked for has a flash report and manages leads (IC) to sales (GB). 

Bottom line for the community is that we (the community) need to work together to share the numbers among all the GB leaders so that forecast is as accurate as possible which is easy enough to do when the community goes through a couple of iterations.  Signature Plastics knows this information too (there's a reason for launch pad, and truthfully PMK started that whole idea long before MD hit the keycap scene).

The senior leaders here at GH can work this out and together go back to the classic group buy strategy that works for the community if the community truly wants to come together and continue the classic group buy system in lieu of Massdrop.  Yes this truth would hurt Massdrop since (most of the time) the group buy leaders are individuals (a fine choice) but can sometimes lack the resources (time, commitment, finance, logistics, etc).  All this could be managed if the group buy leaders insist on working together and without a player like Massdrop who WILL come calling and ask if the GB leader wants to take them up on an offer...

(You want to hurt Massdrop, don't answer the phone)
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 28 January 2016, 13:23:18
Forecasting and numbers are good but in terms of dealing with SP on things, a singular entity makes life easier.  There are still problems with such a community-driven approach.

First, it lacks the logistics capabilities of MassDrop.  As a consumer, I have fair confidence that I'll have my product on relatively short order once production is complete as sorting and shipping are handled at a mass

Next, it would still lack the consumer reach of MassDrop.  MassDrop isn't just mechanical keyboards.  They cover a larger range of products and can pull in buyers that a community-driven effort would not. 

Even after that, you'd need to convince designers to have their designs run through this new community entity.  That might, at times, resemble herding cats.

Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: SMKNGNZ on Thu, 28 January 2016, 13:55:16
Can we have an official statement regarding this issue.

It's been brought up to the community that MD gets a bigger discount after breaking certain MOQs/Tiers. If we face the same challenges, why don't we get the same privileges they do?

First let me say that Signature Plastics is very grateful to the mechanical keyboard community for allowing us the opportunity to manufacture your custom keysets. We see it as a tremendous win for both SP and the growing number of keyboard enthusiasts.
As you may know, Massdrop has quickly become one of our largest customers. The response to group buys run through their system is staggering compared to group buys run on other platforms (check out the sales graph in our new Gallery).  Their relationship with SP is very much like a distributorship and because of that they have earned preferred ‘wholesale’ pricing.  Obviously this will result in a lower profit margin per keyset for SP but it gives MD the ability to add their own profit margin and still offer a product with competitive pricing resulting in a win for the consumer. MD is a great company and a valued customer and we are very pleased with the relationship we have with them.
We also value the relationship we have with the mechanical keyboard community. This dates back to the days when Ripster first schooled us on kerning. A couple years later, and with encouragement from the community, we finally did something about the “shif t” key. The community’s input has been invaluable and we make every effort to listen to what you say and try to make it happen. We also recognize that we would not be where we are today without this great relationship.
From what I understand, I think there may be a disconnect, however, in equating community input on product design with entitled pricing discounts. We don’t deny that SP benefits from the community’s passion for these keysets and that we would not be offering the products we do today without the community’s input. But orders placed by members of the mechanical keyboard community, whether they have an alliance with Geekhack, Deskthority, Reddit or whoever, are still being placed by individuals and not by a single business. Yes, these designers may represent a particular forum or organization but at the end of the day Melissa is still dealing with individuals, some knowledgeable in our products, processes and systems, but many who are not and will require her valuable time over and over again.
We would like to suggest that if a volunteer from the GH community were to form a business entity representing GH, and that person became the go-to person for every set run independent of the MD and PMK systems, then we would be able to quantifiably track sales volumes and review potential pricing discounts for GH. This person would be the sole GH contact person and would work with Melissa on all new keyset designs. Orders would be placed, product run, and a single shipment made to that individual. In a real sense this new company would become an SP distributor similar to MD.
On another note, I also wanted to address the concern over our SA pricing. We did implement some pricing changes with that family for several reasons and we apologize for the confusion and alarm it has caused.
First, we had an error in the costing program regarding part weight. The values in that field represented our DSA keys and not the SA. SA keys are nearly three times the weight of DSA. This error also explained why we continued to run out of material on the 1976 and Juke Box orders when we had purchased what the computer said we would require.
Second, the costing program also had the incorrect number of cavities per shot listed for the special shapes. So the actual quantity of parts per hour produced was really only half of what the computer had calculated.
And third, the costing program was calculating set-up costs based on an all Row 3 order. A basic 104 board run in Row 3 has 9 different 1st and 9 different 2nd shot mold changes. Typically these changes take around two hours each. A sculptured SA 104 board on the other has 32 total mold changes.
We apologize for these oversights in our costing program but in all fairness the sculptured SA tooling had not been run for over 20 years prior to the recent retro interest. If it wasn’t for the community’s insistence on re-commissioning these molds and building the new shapes that complete today’s boards, we would have been happy producing everything in Row 3. Our ears remain open to the wants of the community so continue to keep us informed and we will do our best to provide.
Bob Guenser, Owner
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: livingspeedbump on Thu, 28 January 2016, 14:16:33
Can we have an official statement regarding this issue.

It's been brought up to the community that MD gets a bigger discount after breaking certain MOQs/Tiers. If we face the same challenges, why don't we get the same privileges they do?

First let me say that Signature Plastics is very grateful to the mechanical keyboard community for allowing us the opportunity to manufacture your custom keysets. We see it as a tremendous win for both SP and the growing number of keyboard enthusiasts.
As you may know, Massdrop has quickly become one of our largest customers. The response to group buys run through their system is staggering compared to group buys run on other platforms (check out the sales graph in our new Gallery).  Their relationship with SP is very much like a distributorship and because of that they have earned preferred ‘wholesale’ pricing.  Obviously this will result in a lower profit margin per keyset for SP but it gives MD the ability to add their own profit margin and still offer a product with competitive pricing resulting in a win for the consumer. MD is a great company and a valued customer and we are very pleased with the relationship we have with them.
We also value the relationship we have with the mechanical keyboard community. This dates back to the days when Ripster first schooled us on kerning. A couple years later, and with encouragement from the community, we finally did something about the “shif t” key. The community’s input has been invaluable and we make every effort to listen to what you say and try to make it happen. We also recognize that we would not be where we are today without this great relationship.
From what I understand, I think there may be a disconnect, however, in equating community input on product design with entitled pricing discounts. We don’t deny that SP benefits from the community’s passion for these keysets and that we would not be offering the products we do today without the community’s input. But orders placed by members of the mechanical keyboard community, whether they have an alliance with Geekhack, Deskthority, Reddit or whoever, are still being placed by individuals and not by a single business. Yes, these designers may represent a particular forum or organization but at the end of the day Melissa is still dealing with individuals, some knowledgeable in our products, processes and systems, but many who are not and will require her valuable time over and over again.
We would like to suggest that if a volunteer from the GH community were to form a business entity representing GH, and that person became the go-to person for every set run independent of the MD and PMK systems, then we would be able to quantifiably track sales volumes and review potential pricing discounts for GH. This person would be the sole GH contact person and would work with Melissa on all new keyset designs. Orders would be placed, product run, and a single shipment made to that individual. In a real sense this new company would become an SP distributor similar to MD.
On another note, I also wanted to address the concern over our SA pricing. We did implement some pricing changes with that family for several reasons and we apologize for the confusion and alarm it has caused.
First, we had an error in the costing program regarding part weight. The values in that field represented our DSA keys and not the SA. SA keys are nearly three times the weight of DSA. This error also explained why we continued to run out of material on the 1976 and Juke Box orders when we had purchased what the computer said we would require.
Second, the costing program also had the incorrect number of cavities per shot listed for the special shapes. So the actual quantity of parts per hour produced was really only half of what the computer had calculated.
And third, the costing program was calculating set-up costs based on an all Row 3 order. A basic 104 board run in Row 3 has 9 different 1st and 9 different 2nd shot mold changes. Typically these changes take around two hours each. A sculptured SA 104 board on the other has 32 total mold changes.
We apologize for these oversights in our costing program but in all fairness the sculptured SA tooling had not been run for over 20 years prior to the recent retro interest. If it wasn’t for the community’s insistence on re-commissioning these molds and building the new shapes that complete today’s boards, we would have been happy producing everything in Row 3. Our ears remain open to the wants of the community so continue to keep us informed and we will do our best to provide.
Bob Guenser, Owner

I think this is a fantastic answer. No BS, makes perfect sense from a business standpoint, and shows you do care about the smaller communities still.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Ail on Thu, 28 January 2016, 15:14:53
Can we have an official statement regarding this issue.

It's been brought up to the community that MD gets a bigger discount after breaking certain MOQs/Tiers. If we face the same challenges, why don't we get the same privileges they do?

First let me say that Signature Plastics is very grateful to the mechanical keyboard community for allowing us the opportunity to manufacture your custom keysets. We see it as a tremendous win for both SP and the growing number of keyboard enthusiasts.
As you may know, Massdrop has quickly become one of our largest customers. The response to group buys run through their system is staggering compared to group buys run on other platforms (check out the sales graph in our new Gallery).  Their relationship with SP is very much like a distributorship and because of that they have earned preferred ‘wholesale’ pricing.  Obviously this will result in a lower profit margin per keyset for SP but it gives MD the ability to add their own profit margin and still offer a product with competitive pricing resulting in a win for the consumer. MD is a great company and a valued customer and we are very pleased with the relationship we have with them.
We also value the relationship we have with the mechanical keyboard community. This dates back to the days when Ripster first schooled us on kerning. A couple years later, and with encouragement from the community, we finally did something about the “shif t” key. The community’s input has been invaluable and we make every effort to listen to what you say and try to make it happen. We also recognize that we would not be where we are today without this great relationship.
From what I understand, I think there may be a disconnect, however, in equating community input on product design with entitled pricing discounts. We don’t deny that SP benefits from the community’s passion for these keysets and that we would not be offering the products we do today without the community’s input. But orders placed by members of the mechanical keyboard community, whether they have an alliance with Geekhack, Deskthority, Reddit or whoever, are still being placed by individuals and not by a single business. Yes, these designers may represent a particular forum or organization but at the end of the day Melissa is still dealing with individuals, some knowledgeable in our products, processes and systems, but many who are not and will require her valuable time over and over again.
We would like to suggest that if a volunteer from the GH community were to form a business entity representing GH, and that person became the go-to person for every set run independent of the MD and PMK systems, then we would be able to quantifiably track sales volumes and review potential pricing discounts for GH. This person would be the sole GH contact person and would work with Melissa on all new keyset designs. Orders would be placed, product run, and a single shipment made to that individual. In a real sense this new company would become an SP distributor similar to MD.
On another note, I also wanted to address the concern over our SA pricing. We did implement some pricing changes with that family for several reasons and we apologize for the confusion and alarm it has caused.
First, we had an error in the costing program regarding part weight. The values in that field represented our DSA keys and not the SA. SA keys are nearly three times the weight of DSA. This error also explained why we continued to run out of material on the 1976 and Juke Box orders when we had purchased what the computer said we would require.
Second, the costing program also had the incorrect number of cavities per shot listed for the special shapes. So the actual quantity of parts per hour produced was really only half of what the computer had calculated.
And third, the costing program was calculating set-up costs based on an all Row 3 order. A basic 104 board run in Row 3 has 9 different 1st and 9 different 2nd shot mold changes. Typically these changes take around two hours each. A sculptured SA 104 board on the other has 32 total mold changes.
We apologize for these oversights in our costing program but in all fairness the sculptured SA tooling had not been run for over 20 years prior to the recent retro interest. If it wasn’t for the community’s insistence on re-commissioning these molds and building the new shapes that complete today’s boards, we would have been happy producing everything in Row 3. Our ears remain open to the wants of the community so continue to keep us informed and we will do our best to provide.
Bob Guenser, Owner

I think this is a fantastic answer. No BS, makes perfect sense from a business standpoint, and shows you do care about the smaller communities still.

Agreed, and I think it is not unreasonable for them to prefer a direct contact to which they run all GBs through streamlining the process for both parties. The obvious problem with this is that the person doing it for Massdrop and SP is getting paid. I don't know if the community or GH members can really expect someone to donate large portions of their time running multiple group buys just so we can all enjoy a discount.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: mashby on Thu, 28 January 2016, 15:31:16
Impressive response in it's honesty and the time and attention it took to provide such a well thought and detailed explanation. Thank you.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 28 January 2016, 16:18:54
Thank you for the response.  It's much as many of us had theorized but it's wonderful to hear confirmation.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Thu, 28 January 2016, 17:58:48
Nobody here really cares about your statement, since you're only a marginal player in a community that prefers by far the quality of gmk and gateron. SA profile finds a place here only because it's a rare profile made only by sp.

DCS offers half the quality of taihao, but it costs double than that.

DSA is too small to be actually used for serious typing. Plus it can damage the switches when removing the keycaps.

Plus your keycaps don't have scoops. How can you even type on those ugly and annoying bars.

Go home. You're drunk.

Giorgio.
Engineer.
Owner.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: kinglukas38 on Thu, 28 January 2016, 18:53:39
Nobody here really cares about your statement, since you're only a marginal player in a community that prefers by far the quality of gmk and gateron. SA profile finds a place here only because it's a rare profile made only by sp.

DCS offers half the quality of taihao, but it costs double than that.

DSA is too small to be actually used for serious typing. Plus it can damage the switches when removing the keycaps.

Plus your keycaps don't have scoops. How can you even type on those ugly and annoying bars.

Go home. You're drunk.

Giorgio.
Engineer.
Owner.

please tell me that you forgot /s
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 28 January 2016, 19:37:16
First let me say that Signature Plastics is very grateful to the mechanical keyboard community for allowing us the opportunity to manufacture your custom keysets. We see it as a tremendous win for both SP and the growing number of keyboard enthusiasts.
As you may know, Massdrop has quickly become one of our largest customers. The response to group buys run through their system is staggering compared to group buys run on other platforms (check out the sales graph in our new Gallery).  Their relationship with SP is very much like a distributorship and because of that they have earned preferred ‘wholesale’ pricing.  Obviously this will result in a lower profit margin per keyset for SP but it gives MD the ability to add their own profit margin and still offer a product with competitive pricing resulting in a win for the consumer. MD is a great company and a valued customer and we are very pleased with the relationship we have with them.
We also value the relationship we have with the mechanical keyboard community. This dates back to the days when Ripster first schooled us on kerning. A couple years later, and with encouragement from the community, we finally did something about the “shif t” key. The community’s input has been invaluable and we make every effort to listen to what you say and try to make it happen. We also recognize that we would not be where we are today without this great relationship.
From what I understand, I think there may be a disconnect, however, in equating community input on product design with entitled pricing discounts. We don’t deny that SP benefits from the community’s passion for these keysets and that we would not be offering the products we do today without the community’s input. But orders placed by members of the mechanical keyboard community, whether they have an alliance with Geekhack, Deskthority, Reddit or whoever, are still being placed by individuals and not by a single business. Yes, these designers may represent a particular forum or organization but at the end of the day Melissa is still dealing with individuals, some knowledgeable in our products, processes and systems, but many who are not and will require her valuable time over and over again.
We would like to suggest that if a volunteer from the GH community were to form a business entity representing GH, and that person became the go-to person for every set run independent of the MD and PMK systems, then we would be able to quantifiably track sales volumes and review potential pricing discounts for GH. This person would be the sole GH contact person and would work with Melissa on all new keyset designs. Orders would be placed, product run, and a single shipment made to that individual. In a real sense this new company would become an SP distributor similar to MD.
On another note, I also wanted to address the concern over our SA pricing. We did implement some pricing changes with that family for several reasons and we apologize for the confusion and alarm it has caused.
First, we had an error in the costing program regarding part weight. The values in that field represented our DSA keys and not the SA. SA keys are nearly three times the weight of DSA. This error also explained why we continued to run out of material on the 1976 and Juke Box orders when we had purchased what the computer said we would require.
Second, the costing program also had the incorrect number of cavities per shot listed for the special shapes. So the actual quantity of parts per hour produced was really only half of what the computer had calculated.
And third, the costing program was calculating set-up costs based on an all Row 3 order. A basic 104 board run in Row 3 has 9 different 1st and 9 different 2nd shot mold changes. Typically these changes take around two hours each. A sculptured SA 104 board on the other has 32 total mold changes.
We apologize for these oversights in our costing program but in all fairness the sculptured SA tooling had not been run for over 20 years prior to the recent retro interest. If it wasn’t for the community’s insistence on re-commissioning these molds and building the new shapes that complete today’s boards, we would have been happy producing everything in Row 3. Our ears remain open to the wants of the community so continue to keep us informed and we will do our best to provide.
Bob Guenser, Owner

Thank you for this remarkable transparency. This is disappointing news for the community in financial terms, but understandable.

Nobody here really cares about your statement, since you're only a marginal player in a community that prefers by far the quality of gmk and gateron. SA profile finds a place here only because it's a rare profile made only by sp.

DCS offers half the quality of taihao, but it costs double than that.

DSA is too small to be actually used for serious typing. Plus it can damage the switches when removing the keycaps.

Plus your keycaps don't have scoops. How can you even type on those ugly and annoying bars.

Go home. You're drunk.

Giorgio.
Engineer.
Owner.

Please leave.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 28 January 2016, 19:55:30
This is the sort of fantastic feedback and community involvement I have been hearing about SP since I joined GH.  Another fantastic example of give and take on both sides, with rational explanations as to why things are as they are.

Thank you SP and SMKNGNZ for the transparency and honesty, and for the time to make the explanation.

Mods: should SMKNGNZ have a "vendor" tag, and perhaps moderate the SP/PMK section too?
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: user 18 on Thu, 28 January 2016, 21:10:04
Nobody here really cares about your statement, since you're only a marginal player in a community that prefers by far the quality of gmk and gateron. SA profile finds a place here only because it's a rare profile made only by sp.

DCS offers half the quality of taihao, but it costs double than that.

DSA is too small to be actually used for serious typing. Plus it can damage the switches when removing the keycaps.

Plus your keycaps don't have scoops. How can you even type on those ugly and annoying bars.

Go home. You're drunk.

Giorgio.
Engineer.
Owner.

DSA and SA have scoops though.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 28 January 2016, 23:45:54
Very professional reply there Bob.

It's going to be hard for the community to digest, with being used to the older pricing both because of the miscalculated costing and now MD getting discounts. It is however understandable and the community will just have to swallow the fact.

The community might have assisted SP in forming complete SA sets, Cherry font and other matters but it has been an arrangement which has been mutually benefiting as we've got the opportunity to get some very nice keysets made over the years. SP has always been at the forefront of assisting the community, other vendors have only recently started valuing the community and lowering MOQ, providing quality keycaps, etc. I know from the Galaxy Class, how professional SP was and worked very closely with norbauer to produce the optimal set.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: stoic-lemon on Fri, 29 January 2016, 00:15:47
Nobody here really cares about your statement, since you're only a marginal player in a community that prefers by far the quality of gmk and gateron. SA profile finds a place here only because it's a rare profile made only by sp.

DCS offers half the quality of taihao, but it costs double than that.

DSA is too small to be actually used for serious typing. Plus it can damage the switches when removing the keycaps.

Plus your keycaps don't have scoops. How can you even type on those ugly and annoying bars.

Go home. You're drunk.

Giorgio.
Engineer.
Owner.

I was waiting for scoops to come into it somewhere. I was sure you would find a way to complain about scoops. I was not disappointed.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 29 January 2016, 00:58:55
Nobody here really cares about your statement, since you're only a marginal player in a community that prefers by far the quality of gmk and gateron. SA profile finds a place here only because it's a rare profile made only by sp.

DCS offers half the quality of taihao, but it costs double than that.

DSA is too small to be actually used for serious typing. Plus it can damage the switches when removing the keycaps.

Plus your keycaps don't have scoops. How can you even type on those ugly and annoying bars.

Go home. You're drunk.

Giorgio.
Engineer.
Owner.

please tell me that you forgot /s

The only obvious /s was in the scoops section.

Do you really find signature plastic relevant?

You will never ever again hear signature plastic outside massdrop. This thread should be moved there.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 29 January 2016, 01:01:03
First let me say that Signature Plastics is very grateful to the mechanical keyboard community for allowing us the opportunity to manufacture your custom keysets. We see it as a tremendous win for both SP and the growing number of keyboard enthusiasts.
As you may know, Massdrop has quickly become one of our largest customers. The response to group buys run through their system is staggering compared to group buys run on other platforms (check out the sales graph in our new Gallery).  Their relationship with SP is very much like a distributorship and because of that they have earned preferred ‘wholesale’ pricing.  Obviously this will result in a lower profit margin per keyset for SP but it gives MD the ability to add their own profit margin and still offer a product with competitive pricing resulting in a win for the consumer. MD is a great company and a valued customer and we are very pleased with the relationship we have with them.
We also value the relationship we have with the mechanical keyboard community. This dates back to the days when Ripster first schooled us on kerning. A couple years later, and with encouragement from the community, we finally did something about the “shif t” key. The community’s input has been invaluable and we make every effort to listen to what you say and try to make it happen. We also recognize that we would not be where we are today without this great relationship.
From what I understand, I think there may be a disconnect, however, in equating community input on product design with entitled pricing discounts. We don’t deny that SP benefits from the community’s passion for these keysets and that we would not be offering the products we do today without the community’s input. But orders placed by members of the mechanical keyboard community, whether they have an alliance with Geekhack, Deskthority, Reddit or whoever, are still being placed by individuals and not by a single business. Yes, these designers may represent a particular forum or organization but at the end of the day Melissa is still dealing with individuals, some knowledgeable in our products, processes and systems, but many who are not and will require her valuable time over and over again.
We would like to suggest that if a volunteer from the GH community were to form a business entity representing GH, and that person became the go-to person for every set run independent of the MD and PMK systems, then we would be able to quantifiably track sales volumes and review potential pricing discounts for GH. This person would be the sole GH contact person and would work with Melissa on all new keyset designs. Orders would be placed, product run, and a single shipment made to that individual. In a real sense this new company would become an SP distributor similar to MD.
On another note, I also wanted to address the concern over our SA pricing. We did implement some pricing changes with that family for several reasons and we apologize for the confusion and alarm it has caused.
First, we had an error in the costing program regarding part weight. The values in that field represented our DSA keys and not the SA. SA keys are nearly three times the weight of DSA. This error also explained why we continued to run out of material on the 1976 and Juke Box orders when we had purchased what the computer said we would require.
Second, the costing program also had the incorrect number of cavities per shot listed for the special shapes. So the actual quantity of parts per hour produced was really only half of what the computer had calculated.
And third, the costing program was calculating set-up costs based on an all Row 3 order. A basic 104 board run in Row 3 has 9 different 1st and 9 different 2nd shot mold changes. Typically these changes take around two hours each. A sculptured SA 104 board on the other has 32 total mold changes.
We apologize for these oversights in our costing program but in all fairness the sculptured SA tooling had not been run for over 20 years prior to the recent retro interest. If it wasn’t for the community’s insistence on re-commissioning these molds and building the new shapes that complete today’s boards, we would have been happy producing everything in Row 3. Our ears remain open to the wants of the community so continue to keep us informed and we will do our best to provide.
Bob Guenser, Owner

Thank you for this remarkable transparency. This is disappointing news for the community in financial terms, but understandable.

Nobody here really cares about your statement, since you're only a marginal player in a community that prefers by far the quality of gmk and gateron. SA profile finds a place here only because it's a rare profile made only by sp.

DCS offers half the quality of taihao, but it costs double than that.

DSA is too small to be actually used for serious typing. Plus it can damage the switches when removing the keycaps.

Plus your keycaps don't have scoops. How can you even type on those ugly and annoying bars.

Go home. You're drunk.

Giorgio.
Engineer.
Owner.

Please leave.

I will not leave, because sp has already left you. Did you notice that? Sorry kiddo.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: KRKS on Fri, 29 January 2016, 04:40:56
Yeah, I'm with Giorgio on this one(except I prefer bars over scoops).

MD is the worst thing that has happened to the mechanical keyboard community - pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

They stole(see the Aluminium HHKB case for example), they lied(Granite was supposed to be a one-time thing, remember?), they censored(Otaku Kiiboodo),  they had misadvertised products(numpad fiasco), and bad deliveries(Triumph Scratcher), and they most likely sell your data. All for dem dallas. And they will crave for dominance over community-run buys. They already have the said dominance with SP, as seen here.

This is why I'm glad that bigger and bigger things are happening completely outside of it. Alps buys, K-Type, Keyboard.io, UHK(even though I personally think it is a hunk of junk) and many others. I run a strict "MD = no $" policy, and I really recommend others doing the same for the sake of the community.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Fri, 29 January 2016, 12:35:58
The thing is, keycaps have never been anything but a business for SP. They have only ever been in it for the money. It is, after all, how they pay their employees, give them health benefits, pay to keep the machines running, the facility operating, etc. Without profits, none of this happens. Without growth (i.e., higher profits), they can't invest in new tooling or improved production capacity, or a growing workforce, or raises for their employees. SP is not a charitable institution and they aren't starving artists doing this for the sheer love of it.

It is different for the community. This is just a passionate hobby for the community. The product you are passionate about is a very niche product which creates problems of pricing and distribution that normal products don't encounter. In return for those inconveniences, the community has become accustomed to feeling like they are some sort of partner in the process. But that is not the same as being an actual business partner, or an investor.

It is a mistake, I think, to confuse being a customer--even one who collaborates closely with the manufacturer to help produce the product you want to buy--with being a business partner with actual equity in the enterprise. The former affords a degree of influence over the product you get to purchase, while the latter affords you input into issues of pricing and shipping policies. Confusing the two, or thinking they are the same thing, appears to be creating a lot of unfounded resentment around here.

For you, mechanical keyboards and custom keycaps are interesting things you buy and play around with. For the companies who make them, it is a business where the fundamental driving principle is the same as it is for any business: make more money than you spend, so that profits can be used to pay for a healthy workforce and grow the business. Yes, in a way it's "all about the dalla". But for businesses with employees to pay and vendors to pay and other business partners to answer to, it has to be.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 29 January 2016, 13:00:16
Yeah, I'm with Giorgio on this one(except I prefer bars over scoops).

MD is the worst thing that has happened to the mechanical keyboard community - pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

They stole(see the Aluminium HHKB case for example), they lied(Granite was supposed to be a one-time thing, remember?), they censored(Otaku Kiiboodo),  they had misadvertised products(numpad fiasco), and bad deliveries(Triumph Scratcher), and they most likely sell your data. All for dem dallas. And they will crave for dominance over community-run buys. They already have the said dominance with SP, as seen here.

This is why I'm glad that bigger and bigger things are happening completely outside of it. Alps buys, K-Type, Keyboard.io, UHK(even though I personally think it is a hunk of junk) and many others. I run a strict "MD = no $" policy, and I really recommend others doing the same for the sake of the community.

Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Dernubenfrieken on Fri, 29 January 2016, 13:16:53
Yeah, I'm with Giorgio on this one(except I prefer bars over scoops).

MD is the worst thing that has happened to the mechanical keyboard community - pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

They stole(see the Aluminium HHKB case for example), they lied(Granite was supposed to be a one-time thing, remember?), they censored(Otaku Kiiboodo),  they had misadvertised products(numpad fiasco), and bad deliveries(Triumph Scratcher), and they most likely sell your data. All for dem dallas. And they will crave for dominance over community-run buys. They already have the said dominance with SP, as seen here.

This is why I'm glad that bigger and bigger things are happening completely outside of it. Alps buys, K-Type, Keyboard.io, UHK(even though I personally think it is a hunk of junk) and many others. I run a strict "MD = no $" policy, and I really recommend others doing the same for the sake of the community.

Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

Yep, massdrop brings a ton of people into the community and into buying keysets. As you said, its safe and more consistent for most people.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 29 January 2016, 13:37:14
SP= Shi*P
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: eksuen@Drop on Fri, 29 January 2016, 14:10:41
Personally, SP's profiles rank pretty low on my list. I've purchased a couple keysets so far only because there was something unique about the set. But it's rare to have a business owner come out and address customer concerns directly, and with respect and professionalism no less. So I have mad respect for Bob. Yeah, SP is a business, but it seems pretty clear it's a business run by good people who care about the quality of the service and products they provide to their customers. I plan to purchase from them again just to support their business, but also to spite all the haters.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: KRKS on Fri, 29 January 2016, 14:13:44
Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

You seem to have missed the entire point, so let me show it, and underline a word for you to make it more obvious:

pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

On the other hand though,

SP= Shi*P

Is a bit too far and actually hurts a serious statement I'm trying to make here, so I'd appreciate if you discussed properly or not at all.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 29 January 2016, 14:16:28
Personally, SP's profiles rank pretty low on my list. I've purchased a couple keysets so far only because there was something unique about the set. But it's rare to have a business owner come out and address customer concerns directly, and with respect and professionalism no less. So I have mad respect for Bob. Yeah, SP is a business, but it seems pretty clear it's a business run by good people who care about the quality of the service and products they provide to their customers. I plan to purchase from them again just to support their business, but also to spite all the haters.

Comments like this and Bobs are why I *sometimes* wish we had a like button.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Fri, 29 January 2016, 14:21:30
The dual pursuits of profit and comittment to the customer base must go hand in hand. I've not seen any credible evidence that SP has been intentionally allowing one to jeopardize the other.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 29 January 2016, 15:09:45
Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

You seem to have missed the entire point, so let me show it, and underline a word for you to make it more obvious:

pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

On the other hand though,

SP= Shi*P

Is a bit too far and actually hurts a serious statement I'm trying to make here, so I'd appreciate if you discussed properly or not at all.

I wrote a very long post, only to erase it and replace with a scatological post. I don't want to say anything that could make sp change its mind. I just want sp to disappear. Their production is such low quality that I don't really understand what we're talking about. They're a fraud.

Giorgio
Engineer
Owner
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 29 January 2016, 15:12:56
Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

You seem to have missed the entire point, so let me show it, and underline a word for you to make it more obvious:

pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

On the other hand though,

SP= Shi*P

Is a bit too far and actually hurts a serious statement I'm trying to make here, so I'd appreciate if you discussed properly or not at all.

I wrote a very long post, only to erase it and replace with a scatological post. I don't want to say anything that could make sp change its mind. I just want sp to disappear. Their production is such low quality that I don't really understand what we're talking about. They're a fraud.

Giorgio
Engineer
Owner

So who makes a better quality product for tall and short profile spherical key caps with MX mount?
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 29 January 2016, 15:31:28
Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

You seem to have missed the entire point, so let me show it, and underline a word for you to make it more obvious:

pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

On the other hand though,

SP= Shi*P

Is a bit too far and actually hurts a serious statement I'm trying to make here, so I'd appreciate if you discussed properly or not at all.

I wrote a very long post, only to erase it and replace with a scatological post. I don't want to say anything that could make sp change its mind. I just want sp to disappear. Their production is such low quality that I don't really understand what we're talking about. They're a fraud.

Giorgio
Engineer
Owner

So who makes a better quality product for tall and short profile spherical key caps with MX mount?

So who makes a better product than a product that no one else makes? You're different. You're unique. Does this make you automatically better than the others?

Giorgio
Owned
(http://i.imgur.com/TUsloyP.jpg)
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 29 January 2016, 15:41:35
Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

You seem to have missed the entire point, so let me show it, and underline a word for you to make it more obvious:

pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

On the other hand though,

SP= Shi*P

Is a bit too far and actually hurts a serious statement I'm trying to make here, so I'd appreciate if you discussed properly or not at all.

I wrote a very long post, only to erase it and replace with a scatological post. I don't want to say anything that could make sp change its mind. I just want sp to disappear. Their production is such low quality that I don't really understand what we're talking about. They're a fraud.

Giorgio
Engineer
Owner

So who makes a better quality product for tall and short profile spherical key caps with MX mount?

So who makes a better product than a product that no one else makes? You're different. You're unique. Does this make you automatically better than the others?

Giorgio
Owned
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/TUsloyP.jpg)

Give me one example of how they have a bad product and are a fraud.  When was the last time you heard of a company operating as a fraud for close to 16 years.

Their product is good quality, and at reasonable prices consideration seeing everything that goes into it.

Plain and simple, chances are you will not be able to get molds created for any sculpted profile for less than the cost savings of the commission from PMK ver the course is of several years.

Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 29 January 2016, 16:01:28
Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

You seem to have missed the entire point, so let me show it, and underline a word for you to make it more obvious:

pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

On the other hand though,

SP= Shi*P

Is a bit too far and actually hurts a serious statement I'm trying to make here, so I'd appreciate if you discussed properly or not at all.

I wrote a very long post, only to erase it and replace with a scatological post. I don't want to say anything that could make sp change its mind. I just want sp to disappear. Their production is such low quality that I don't really understand what we're talking about. They're a fraud.

Giorgio
Engineer
Owner

So who makes a better quality product for tall and short profile spherical key caps with MX mount?

So who makes a better product than a product that no one else makes? You're different. You're unique. Does this make you automatically better than the others?

Giorgio
Owned
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/TUsloyP.jpg)

Give me one example of how they have a bad product and are a fraud.  When was the last time you heard of a company operating as a fraud for close to 16 years.

Their product is good quality, and at reasonable prices consideration seeing everything that goes into it.

Plain and simple, chances are you will not be able to get molds created for any sculpted profile for less than the cost savings of the commission from PMK ver the course is of several years.

I enjoy too much their suicidal tendencies, I'm not gonna give you any example, sorry :-)
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Fri, 29 January 2016, 16:16:41
I love spherical keycaps. I love the Round 5/6 colorways. I don't know any other way to get what I want except through group buys that deal with Signature Plastics. If there is an alternate source for what I want, I would dearly love to learn about it.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 29 January 2016, 16:57:10
Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

You seem to have missed the entire point, so let me show it, and underline a word for you to make it more obvious:

pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

On the other hand though,

SP= Shi*P

Is a bit too far and actually hurts a serious statement I'm trying to make here, so I'd appreciate if you discussed properly or not at all.

I wrote a very long post, only to erase it and replace with a scatological post. I don't want to say anything that could make sp change its mind. I just want sp to disappear. Their production is such low quality that I don't really understand what we're talking about. They're a fraud.

Giorgio
Engineer
Owner

So who makes a better quality product for tall and short profile spherical key caps with MX mount?

So who makes a better product than a product that no one else makes? You're different. You're unique. Does this make you automatically better than the others?

Giorgio
Owned
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/TUsloyP.jpg)

Give me one example of how they have a bad product and are a fraud.  When was the last time you heard of a company operating as a fraud for close to 16 years.

Their product is good quality, and at reasonable prices consideration seeing everything that goes into it.

Plain and simple, chances are you will not be able to get molds created for any sculpted profile for less than the cost savings of the commission from PMK ver the course is of several years.

I enjoy too much their suicidal tendencies, I'm not gonna give you any example, sorry :-)

I think you might have SP and Unicomp mixed up.  I have yet to see any suicidal tendencies from SP.  They seem more than willing to work with us regarding issues with tooling, custom colors, custom legends, etc, all while providing a quality product.  Unicomp on the other hand all but refuses to work with customers regarding semi custom orders and that seems to change from a day to day basis.

Either way, your comments have no credibility and are not wanted here as they are projecting a bad reputation which we do not want to get started.  If you feel the need to voice your opinions on SP's quality and QC, feel free to, but please start your own thread.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:07:25
Either way, your comments have no credibility and are not wanted here as they are projecting a bad reputation which we do not want to get started.  If you feel the need to voice your opinions on SP's quality and QC, feel free to, but please start your own thread.

Agreed. Giorgio, if you're going to express negative opinions in this thread, do it in a respectful way.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: mashby on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:23:35
Either way, your comments have no credibility and are not wanted here as they are projecting a bad reputation which we do not want to get started.  If you feel the need to voice your opinions on SP's quality and QC, feel free to, but please start your own thread.

Agreed. Giorgio, if you're going to express negative opinions in this thread, do it in a respectful way.

It's hard to do, but we shouldn't feed the troll.

Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:23:57
Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

You seem to have missed the entire point, so let me show it, and underline a word for you to make it more obvious:

pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

On the other hand though,

SP= Shi*P

Is a bit too far and actually hurts a serious statement I'm trying to make here, so I'd appreciate if you discussed properly or not at all.

I wrote a very long post, only to erase it and replace with a scatological post. I don't want to say anything that could make sp change its mind. I just want sp to disappear. Their production is such low quality that I don't really understand what we're talking about. They're a fraud.

Giorgio
Engineer
Owner

So who makes a better quality product for tall and short profile spherical key caps with MX mount?

So who makes a better product than a product that no one else makes? You're different. You're unique. Does this make you automatically better than the others?

Giorgio
Owned
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/TUsloyP.jpg)

Give me one example of how they have a bad product and are a fraud.  When was the last time you heard of a company operating as a fraud for close to 16 years.

Their product is good quality, and at reasonable prices consideration seeing everything that goes into it.

Plain and simple, chances are you will not be able to get molds created for any sculpted profile for less than the cost savings of the commission from PMK ver the course is of several years.

I enjoy too much their suicidal tendencies, I'm not gonna give you any example, sorry :-)

I think you might have SP and Unicomp mixed up.  I have yet to see any suicidal tendencies from SP.  They seem more than willing to work with us regarding issues with tooling, custom colors, custom legends, etc, all while providing a quality product.  Unicomp on the other hand all but refuses to work with customers regarding semi custom orders and that seems to change from a day to day basis.

Either way, your comments have no credibility and are not wanted here as they are projecting a bad reputation which we do not want to get started.  If you feel the need to voice your opinions on SP's quality and QC, feel free to, but please start your own thread.

A bad reputation. You've just been dumped and you worry about your reputation. You've already been told that money is the only thing that counts, and still you worry about respectability, about saving the appearances. What will the neighbours say, this is what counts for you. Your life will be fantastic.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:27:06
Thread owner.
Business owner.
You've found each other.

Giorgio.
Entitled to my opinion owner.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: mashby on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:28:05
I love spherical keycaps. I love the Round 5/6 colorways. I don't know any other way to get what I want except through group buys that deal with Signature Plastics. If there is an alternate source for what I want, I would dearly love to learn about it.

I agree and given the number of SA group buys, we're clearly not alone.  :thumb:

It's unfortunate that SP found that the cost of manufacturing was more than they estimated given how popular this profile has been. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the marketplace and if we actually see a huge price-per-set increase.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Bromono on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:44:25
Thread owner.
Business owner.
You've found each other.

Giorgio.
Entitled to my opinion owner.

Someone is salty.

You give no actual benefit to the discussion besides immature bashing.

Go cry on one of your own threads.

Oh wait, he won't.. Because he is fishing for attention.

Kids...

None the less, SP does more then just making custom caps for this community and gave a respectable response.

If you like cherry and gateron then buy their products and gtfo this thread.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 29 January 2016, 18:10:17
Thread owner.
Business owner.
You've found each other.

Giorgio.
Entitled to my opinion owner.

Someone is salty.

You give no actual benefit to the discussion besides immature bashing.

Go cry on one of your own threads.

Oh wait, he won't.. Because he is fishing for attention.

Kids...

None the less, SP does more then just making custom caps for this community and gave a respectable response.

If you like cherry and gateron then buy their products and gtfo this thread.

I'm fishing for attention, when I ignore requests to discuss SP problems, and when I say that I'm happy to be a spectator of their suicide? You are not supposed to inhale the SP plastics fumes, you know.
In case you haven't notice, there is nothing to discuss, you're not part of any process, you're just a spectator. And this is the subject of the thread.

Owner.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Bromono on Fri, 29 January 2016, 18:25:42
Thread owner.
Business owner.
You've found each other.

Giorgio.
Entitled to my opinion owner.

Someone is salty.

You give no actual benefit to the discussion besides immature bashing.

Go cry on one of your own threads.

Oh wait, he won't.. Because he is fishing for attention.

Kids...

None the less, SP does more then just making custom caps for this community and gave a respectable response.

If you like cherry and gateron then buy their products and gtfo this thread.

I'm fishing for attention, when I ignore requests to discuss SP problems, and when I say that I'm happy to be a spectator of their suicide? You are not supposed to inhale the SP plastics fumes, you know.
In case you haven't notice, there is nothing to discuss, you're not part of any process, you're just a spectator. And this is the subject of the thread.

Owner.

So many fallacies to your comments.

Not worth my time debating with ignorance.

You do you boo.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: livingspeedbump on Fri, 29 January 2016, 19:49:21
Thread owner.
Business owner.
You've found each other.

Giorgio.
Entitled to my opinion owner.

Someone is salty.

You give no actual benefit to the discussion besides immature bashing.

Go cry on one of your own threads.

Oh wait, he won't.. Because he is fishing for attention.

Kids...

None the less, SP does more then just making custom caps for this community and gave a respectable response.

If you like cherry and gateron then buy their products and gtfo this thread.

I'm fishing for attention, when I ignore requests to discuss SP problems, and when I say that I'm happy to be a spectator of their suicide? You are not supposed to inhale the SP plastics fumes, you know.
In case you haven't notice, there is nothing to discuss, you're not part of any process, you're just a spectator. And this is the subject of the thread.

Owner.

You're drunk.
Go home.

After seeing the MD sales numbers, SP is clearly not going anywhere.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 30 January 2016, 01:43:56
Thread owner.
Business owner.
You've found each other.

Giorgio.
Entitled to my opinion owner.

Someone is salty.

You give no actual benefit to the discussion besides immature bashing.

Go cry on one of your own threads.

Oh wait, he won't.. Because he is fishing for attention.

Kids...

None the less, SP does more then just making custom caps for this community and gave a respectable response.

If you like cherry and gateron then buy their products and gtfo this thread.

I'm fishing for attention, when I ignore requests to discuss SP problems, and when I say that I'm happy to be a spectator of their suicide? You are not supposed to inhale the SP plastics fumes, you know.
In case you haven't notice, there is nothing to discuss, you're not part of any process, you're just a spectator. And this is the subject of the thread.

Owner.

So many fallacies to your comments.

Not worth my time debating with ignorance.

You do you boo.

Ignorance? You're the one being ignored by sp. Once more, your react doing nothing. And by praising those who ignore you, you justify their actions. "They will do nothing", they said. And you did nothing.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: KRKS on Sat, 30 January 2016, 09:53:07
You know giorgio, at this point I wonder whether SP hired you to make people with legitimate concerns look bad.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: zslane on Sat, 30 January 2016, 10:42:35
Ignored? You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 30 January 2016, 11:06:08
Ignored? You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A message from Andrew Carnegie
    http://bfy.tw/40I7 (http://bfy.tw/40I7)
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Zorberema on Sat, 30 January 2016, 11:10:37
Ignored? You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A message from Andrew Carnegie
    http://bfy.tw/40I7 (http://bfy.tw/40I7)

"Disregard intentionally". Yepp, definitelly what SP are doing... ._.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 30 January 2016, 13:47:12
Ignored? You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A message from Andrew Carnegie
    http://bfy.tw/40I7 (http://bfy.tw/40I7)

"Disregard intentionally". Yepp, definitelly what SP are doing... ._.

OMG

Intentionally disregard everything which is not massdrop.

Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Bromono on Sat, 30 January 2016, 14:26:33
Ignored? You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A message from Andrew Carnegie
    http://bfy.tw/40I7 (http://bfy.tw/40I7)

"Disregard intentionally". Yepp, definitelly what SP are doing... ._.

OMG

Intentionally disregard everything which is not massdrop.

He was referring to how you took the word "ignorance" and somehow came out with "ignored"

I was just assuming your English was bad.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: hashbaz on Sat, 30 January 2016, 14:29:30
Hi! Let's get back on topic now. :thumb:

I believe Bob's post pretty much addresses the OP, but if there are any related questions or discussion feel free.

Giorgio: drop it
Everyone else: also drop it
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: byker on Sat, 30 January 2016, 18:24:40
Removed all off-topic posts since hashbaz warned y'all. Lets keep it on topic please.
Title: Re: Question about Massdrop preference/favoritism
Post by: Niomosy on Sun, 31 January 2016, 23:22:43
Easy payments and short sorting and shipping times, customer service representatives to handle your claims, and wide availability of product all while being able to bring it to a larger customer base than the community has ever done?  MassDrop is probably the best thing to happen to the community.  It's brought in more buyers.  It's simplified buying.  It's simplified sorting and shipping of product.


For your list of problems with MassDrop, you can easily conjure up a larger list from community runs.  Just look at what some of those group buys have done.  We're talking about 2+ years where people have yet to receive product.  If you're going to cherry pick MassDrop's problems, you should at least cherry pick the communities problems as well and do a fair comparison.

You seem to have missed the entire point, so let me show it, and underline a word for you to make it more obvious:

pursuit of cash over pursuit of things related to this hobby.

On the other hand though,

SP= Shi*P

Is a bit too far and actually hurts a serious statement I'm trying to make here, so I'd appreciate if you discussed properly or not at all.

Pursuit of cash is what every for-profit business does.  SP doing it is of no surprise no concern for me.  Further, the post from Bob gives us more information into their side of the house.  I'm fine with the pursuit of cash for designers wanting to get a bit back via MD and PMk systems via their respective royalty systems as well.