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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: RainbowBlitz on Mon, 09 January 2017, 20:15:09

Title: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: RainbowBlitz on Mon, 09 January 2017, 20:15:09
I finally switched over to the ergodox keyboard totally, replacing my razer mech, and now I need a new mouse.

I've been using a corsair scimitar for general mouse usage and gaming and I can only use it, really, when playing certain games; the rest of the time I rely on Dragon to operate my computer. And as great as dragon is, I don't have the same amount of control over my PC as I do with my mouse. I also have to use a mouse for my work as a telecomm drafter.

I had a Kensington Expert Trackball Mouse (K64325) that I ended up returning when I found that it aggravated my extensor tendonitis to the point that the pain in my hand and upper forearm got worse than the pain of my carpal tunnel syndrome.

I need to be able to use a mouse, for gaming and, more importantly, for CAD work.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: davkol on Tue, 10 January 2017, 04:18:21
Every pointing device sucks in one way or another. The only solution is to swap more different devices and/or use more body parts (both hands, perhaps feet, eyes or various body gestures). Exercise is obviously important too.

For example, I currently have three ambidextrous devices: a mouse (Mionix Avior), a vertical mouse (DXT) and a trackball (Kensington Slimblade). Whenever I feel even the tinniest signs of fatigue, I rotate the devices (swap hands).

The thing about ambidextrous trackballs is that you have to figure out how to hold them and it sounds like you didn't manage to do that. This is also connected to your overall posture, relative desk height, etc.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: LuX on Tue, 10 January 2017, 08:55:56
I've been using the CST trackball for a few weeks now, with extra buttons on the side. The first couple of days were pretty bad and my hand and fingers were badly fatigued (especially the dorsal interosseous) to the point I was almost giving up, but I kept on going and over the course of time it got better. Now I can binge on CS:GO for the entire day and my hands feel pretty much neutral at the end of the day. The same can't be said for a mouse which causes soreness in the wrist and hand. What I like about the CST is that it's so big you can just lay your hand flat on it and it feels much more relaxing than squeezing a mouse all day long. Also once you get used to the high DPI you can just move your fingers to move the cursor across the screen with the wrist staying in place. I'm not sure if I would use it for drawing though, feels a little awkward vs. a drawing pad or mouse. Probably could get better at it through practice.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 10 January 2017, 10:26:16
I have been using a modified WowPen Joy for several years (and also posted about it many times here).
It is slanted at a 45° angle. It looks kinda funny, but it really feels like any regular mouse.
The drawbacks with it was that the sensor isn't anything to write home about - practically any modern gaming-mouse would put it to shame, and the cursor sometimes jitters about on its own. The buttons are also very hard, but I replaced the microswitches with some Omrons from an older mouse and that took care of that issue.
To think of it, those Omron switches have had regular daily use for about FIFTEEN YEARS now, and they still work fine.

It has also been sold under the Anker brand name, or unbranded for cheap on eBay. Anker has now got a couple other mice that are similar in shape but slightly different. Either costs at most $20, so picking one up just to try it out would be no big deal.

BTW. One more well-known vertical mouse is the Evoluent VerticalMouse. I would not recommend it unless you have a serious disability. That one is held completely vertical, which feels very different from a normal mouse and it also snaps your movements to the X and Y axes making it completely unusable for games and very very annoying for tasks such as drawing.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: RainbowBlitz on Tue, 10 January 2017, 10:52:27
BTW. One more well-known vertical mouse is the Evoluent VerticalMouse. I would not recommend it unless you have a serious disability. That one is held completely vertical, which feels very different from a normal mouse and it also snaps your movements to the X and Y axes making it completely unusable for games and very very annoying for tasks such as drawing.

My work actually provided one of them for me and it helped for a little while. Problem is, with as much quick scrolling and constant clicking that I do within MicroStation, the pain in the back of my hand moved from mildly annoying to incapacitating.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: kurplop on Tue, 10 January 2017, 12:00:22

I had a Kensington Expert Trackball Mouse (K64325) that I ended up returning when I found that it aggravated my extensor tendonitis to the point that the pain in my hand and upper forearm got worse than the pain of my carpal tunnel syndrome.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I had a similar problem with the Expert Mouse except I knew within seconds that I wouldn't be able to use it as is. Same problem with wrist extension pain. I solved the problem by insetting the EM into a tray to eliminate both the forward tilt and the excessive height. It is an extreme step but ended up working great for me. After 4+ years I'm still using an iteration of the same design. If you haven't gotten rid of yours yet, you may want to play around with your orientation to it.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 10 January 2017, 12:08:54
Problem is, with as much quick scrolling and constant clicking that I do within MicroStation, the pain in the back of my hand moved from mildly annoying to incapacitating.
Ah. I removed the scrollwheel from my mouse at home. I scroll mostly with the Page Up/Page Down keys on the keyboard. No more pain at the back of my hand after too much middle-finger movement.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: DuckNorris on Tue, 10 January 2017, 12:55:47
For gaming and usual work the most ergonomic gaming mouse is this mionix one and I used this one as this version has an optical sensor which is optimal for gaming ( more reliable than laser ones)
https://www.amazon.com/MIONIX-Multi-Color-Ergonomic-Optical-Gaming/dp/B0046Y0Y20

However, a mouse which you could use for gaming if you leave it plugged it although it is not a gaming mouse but it is one of the best ergonomic ones I am currently using is this one.
https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Master-Wireless-Mouse-Computer/dp/B00TZR3WRM/ref=pd_sim_147_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00TZR3WRM&pd_rd_r=E7P8HAEDWXK6K2VHG4BJ&pd_rd_w=sS4et&pd_rd_wg=yCSzM&psc=1&refRID=E7P8HAEDWXK6K2VHG4BJ


Of course they are both right handed mice. The latter on has an amazing scroll wheel that does not get in the way and it is rapid scroll :D so it reduces the pain in constantly scrolling.  I am a software engineer but also do vector designs with this mouse so it is very steady and reliable.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: need on Tue, 10 January 2017, 13:46:39
The one true ergo mouse, and it offers various sizes for a perfect fit. It also has 3 buttons, which the middle button is absolutely perfect for panning in CAD. Every CAD users know clicking on the scroll wheel just doesn't work that well.

Using our strongest finger - the thumb for the scroll wheel makes perfect sense too.
(http://ergoworks.com.sg/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/555x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/o/contour_mouse_555x555_.png)
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: need on Tue, 10 January 2017, 13:48:51
.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 10 January 2017, 14:46:00
Build my Ergopwn 9000...  Best ERgonomic mouse ON THE PLANET.. //guaranteed..

Link is in my sig..

Instead of g303, you can probably use a gpro or g403 wireless/wired..  because they now have mechanical encoders.. that makes it easier.. and you can skip the step of splicing the internal usb hub.

(http://onion-head.atspace.biz/big_onion/132.gif)
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 10 January 2017, 17:37:58
Every pointing device sucks in one way or another. The only solution is to swap more different devices and/or use more body parts (both hands, perhaps feet, eyes or various body gestures). Exercise is obviously important too.

For example, I currently have three ambidextrous devices: a mouse (Mionix Avior), a vertical mouse (DXT) and a trackball (Kensington Slimblade). Whenever I feel even the tinniest signs of fatigue, I rotate the devices (swap hands).

The thing about ambidextrous trackballs is that you have to figure out how to hold them and it sounds like you didn't manage to do that. This is also connected to your overall posture, relative desk height, etc.

This advice is good.

For what it's worth, the best ergonomic mouse experience for me is with the Rollermouse series. (http://www.contourdesign.com/US/products/)  However, Rollermouse is not great for precision type work, so I keep a normal mouse on hand.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: natas206 on Wed, 11 January 2017, 10:48:51

I had a Kensington Expert Trackball Mouse (K64325) that I ended up returning when I found that it aggravated my extensor tendonitis to the point that the pain in my hand and upper forearm got worse than the pain of my carpal tunnel syndrome.

This is what I use and I had a similar issue but years ago I rigged up something to keep the Trackball in more of a vertical position. Doing so completely solved my problem. I found using the trackball flat is what caused the discomfort in the first place so just adding some tenting to my setup was extremely beneficial.

I'm a trackball guy myself, used them as long as I can remember, but when it comes to ergonomics and Trackballs, there really isn't much  options (not for the larger trackballs). With pointing devices, much more so than keyboards, it really boils down to personal preference. Some people love trackballs, some people hate them, some people like more traditional mice (if so I also recommend trying vertical mice, whether its one of the ones recommended in here or the DXT2 or Evoluent mice or something similar). Whatever it is you prefer, I suggest try tenting it and you may find that solves most if not all of your problems.


Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: kurplop on Wed, 11 January 2017, 11:32:36
I'm curious about how you tented your track ball.  Coold you describe or post a picture of yours?
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: menuhin on Wed, 11 January 2017, 12:27:22
Just curious.
Is the CST L-Trac as high as the Kensington Expert 'Mouse'?

I definitely agree on rotation between various pointing devices to reduce possible fatigue.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: happylacquer on Wed, 11 January 2017, 23:51:14
Gonna suggest the Logitech Trackman although I'm not sure if any other trackballs out there are more ergo.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 12 January 2017, 00:46:36
trackball at an angle certainly solves some of the wrist strain.

But it still requires lateral motion of the wrist, which we know can cause serious problems. because those movement angles are extremely narrow.

A trackball with a good sensor also does not exist.. so rolling your own on this one is harder than splicing a vertical mouse with a gaming mouse. like my Ergopwn 9000
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: Nootz on Tue, 24 January 2017, 06:04:04
I use an aLLreLi 4000, it's partially inclined mouse (about 30 degrees) and it has a load of thumb buttons I find really useful for productivity.
It also comes with a mini wrist rest (more of a ball-of-the-hand rest) that clips on from beneath so you can move your forearm rather than pivoting, which might help with any wrist pain (I personally don't use it so can't vouch for its effectiveness).

The included software can't intelligently switch profiles, but you can bind it to one of the buttons (5 profiles max).
The only downside I've found it the two side-by-side fwd/back buttons are a little spongey before the click.

I don't know how it would fair as a CAD mouse, since I don't know what specific needs CAD software has, but if you need lots of easily accessible buttons, I would recommend it.

I've had it for about 6 months and not experienced any jitter, mouse deceleration/acceleration or missed-clicks. The DPI goes up to 4000 so if you like high DPi when gaming that's pretty good.
http://www.allreli.com/product/allreli-4000-adjustable-dpi-wired-vertical-mouse-w-9-programmable-buttons
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: RainbowBlitz on Sun, 29 January 2017, 16:22:10
trackball at an angle certainly solves some of the wrist strain.

But it still requires lateral motion of the wrist, which we know can cause serious problems. because those movement angles are extremely narrow.

A trackball with a good sensor also does not exist.. so rolling your own on this one is harder than splicing a vertical mouse with a gaming mouse. like my Ergopwn 9000

I love your thread on that mouse, but on any of my devices the pics are broken. I've tried Chrome, Safari, FireFox and Edge, I can't see any of the pics.

Right now I'm using a mix of a trackball, a rollermouse, and my scimitar to use the computer and its working okay but not great.

Its not really my wrist that's hurting, its the back of my hand that hurts.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 30 January 2017, 05:41:40
trackball at an angle certainly solves some of the wrist strain.

But it still requires lateral motion of the wrist, which we know can cause serious problems. because those movement angles are extremely narrow.

A trackball with a good sensor also does not exist.. so rolling your own on this one is harder than splicing a vertical mouse with a gaming mouse. like my Ergopwn 9000

I love your thread on that mouse, but on any of my devices the pics are broken. I've tried Chrome, Safari, FireFox and Edge, I can't see any of the pics.

Right now I'm using a mix of a trackball, a rollermouse, and my scimitar to use the computer and its working okay but not great.

Its not really my wrist that's hurting, its the back of my hand that hurts.


I think your adblocker or script blocking agent is blocking imgur site.. that's where the photos are uploaded to.


Try it now, I ported the images to GH attachment
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: shadowku on Mon, 30 January 2017, 12:47:07
I started a relatively cheap vertical mouse that I found on Amazon a few days ago.
I wasn't having pains, but the Apple Magic Mouse was seriously annoying me.

It's definitely not bad for $20.
https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Wireless-Vertical-Ergonomic-Optical/dp/B00BIFNTMC/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1485801795&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=vertical+mouse&psc=1

Unfortunately, I would say that it's not the best to use this mouse for gaming, especially anything remotely competitive.
I wasn't having the best comfort with it when playing even Diablo, but I'm only using the vertical mouse on my work station where I don't use my mouse too frequently anyway.

I notice that the biggest factor for my wrist comfort was not the actual peripherals but the height of the table. Have you played around with this?

Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: lolpes on Mon, 30 January 2017, 13:21:33
This worked very well for me while I had my ergodox:

(http://i.imgur.com/oP8a3j8.jpg)
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 30 January 2017, 16:37:39
I started a relatively cheap vertical mouse that I found on Amazon a few days ago.
I wasn't having pains, but the Apple Magic Mouse was seriously annoying me.

It's definitely not bad for $20.
https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Wireless-Vertical-Ergonomic-Optical/dp/B00BIFNTMC/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1485801795&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=vertical+mouse&psc=1

Unfortunately, I would say that it's not the best to use this mouse for gaming, especially anything remotely competitive.
I wasn't having the best comfort with it when playing even Diablo, but I'm only using the vertical mouse on my work station where I don't use my mouse too frequently anyway.

I notice that the biggest factor for my wrist comfort was not the actual peripherals but the height of the table. Have you played around with this?



You may have ergonomic problems outside of the wrist angle issue which is the only thing corrected by a vertical mouse..


The mousing surface height should ideally be below your resting elbow height, thereby negating the need for you to lift you shoulder or upper arm..


Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: shadowku on Tue, 31 January 2017, 11:39:33
You may have ergonomic problems outside of the wrist angle issue which is the only thing corrected by a vertical mouse..


The mousing surface height should ideally be below your resting elbow height, thereby negating the need for you to lift you shoulder or upper arm..

My desk at work is actually at a bad height (a few inches too high forcing me to bend elbow and wrist slightly to use the mouse). Even with my chair raised all the way and with a foot rest, my wrist position isn't optimal. However, I'm not getting any pains or too much discomfort in my wrist even though I have injured my wrist when I was younger (right wrist doesn't let me do bench-presses, but chest presses with free weights are okay).

The vertical mouse is definitely more comfortable than a normal mouse. Luckily, I only use my mouse momentarily here and there when I'm not on my editor (VIM). I still have to bend my elbow slightly to use the keyboard, but I keep my keyboard further away from the edge of the table so it doesn't feel as uncomfortable as using the mouse.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: Creek on Tue, 31 January 2017, 13:49:35
Every pointing device sucks in one way or another. The only solution is to swap more different devices and/or use more body parts (both hands, perhaps feet, eyes or various body gestures). Exercise is obviously important too.

For example, I currently have three ambidextrous devices: a mouse (Mionix Avior), a vertical mouse (DXT) and a trackball (Kensington Slimblade). Whenever I feel even the tinniest signs of fatigue, I rotate the devices (swap hands).

The thing about ambidextrous trackballs is that you have to figure out how to hold them and it sounds like you didn't manage to do that. This is also connected to your overall posture, relative desk height, etc.

As someone who has been recently diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome I'm curious to know how this works out for you i.e are you able to use the ergonomic mice/trackball and yet still play a round or two of your favourite game on a more traditional mouse without suffering too much discomfort? I've been looking around at different ergonomic mice solutions and it is clear to me that there is no one size fits all solution, this leads me to believe the method you have of switching devices and using different hands had a great deal of merit to it. Currently my standard gaming mouse (the Logitech G402) has gotten far too uncomfortable to use so I've been looking at buying ergonomic mice however I was a bit disheartened to learn that they're generally considered unworkable for even light FPS gaming. I was considering two ergonomic mice (the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Mouse & Anker Vertical Mouse) however I may also pick up a trackball now in addition to those two and rotate the devices around in the hope I can still game for a couple of hours a week on the old Logitech mouse!
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: shadowku on Tue, 31 January 2017, 16:21:59
As someone who has been recently diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome I'm curious to know how this works out for you i.e are you able to use the ergonomic mice/trackball and yet still play a round or two of your favourite game on a more traditional mouse without suffering too much discomfort? I've been looking around at different ergonomic mice solutions and it is clear to me that there is no one size fits all solution, this leads me to believe the method you have of switching devices and using different hands had a great deal of merit to it. Currently my standard gaming mouse (the Logitech G402) has gotten far too uncomfortable to use so I've been looking at buying ergonomic mice however I was a bit disheartened to learn that they're generally considered unworkable for even light FPS gaming. I was considering two ergonomic mice (the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Mouse & Anker Vertical Mouse) however I may also pick up a trackball now in addition to those two and rotate the devices around in the hope I can still game for a couple of hours a week on the old Logitech mouse!

If you have two wireless mice then swapping them isn't a huge feat as you can just leave both dongles plugged in at all times (may require a USB hub if you're on a laptop). The only thing is that you'll probably want to manage a rotation of rechargeable batteries. The Anker is also cheap enough (both wired and unwired) to at least give it a shot. I haven't tried the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic but I think there's one or two lying around in my office so maybe I'll give that a try. One thing that I actually found that helped was switching to a shorter keyboard (Fullsize -> TKL) so that my hands weren't so far apart. I can't really use a full size keyboard anymore because I end up sitting lopsided and it's not very comfortable.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 31 January 2017, 16:24:43
Every pointing device sucks in one way or another. The only solution is to swap more different devices and/or use more body parts (both hands, perhaps feet, eyes or various body gestures). Exercise is obviously important too.

For example, I currently have three ambidextrous devices: a mouse (Mionix Avior), a vertical mouse (DXT) and a trackball (Kensington Slimblade). Whenever I feel even the tinniest signs of fatigue, I rotate the devices (swap hands).

The thing about ambidextrous trackballs is that you have to figure out how to hold them and it sounds like you didn't manage to do that. This is also connected to your overall posture, relative desk height, etc.

As someone who has been recently diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome I'm curious to know how this works out for you i.e are you able to use the ergonomic mice/trackball and yet still play a round or two of your favourite game on a more traditional mouse without suffering too much discomfort? I've been looking around at different ergonomic mice solutions and it is clear to me that there is no one size fits all solution, this leads me to believe the method you have of switching devices and using different hands had a great deal of merit to it. Currently my standard gaming mouse (the Logitech G402) has gotten far too uncomfortable to use so I've been looking at buying ergonomic mice however I was a bit disheartened to learn that they're generally considered unworkable for even light FPS gaming. I was considering two ergonomic mice (the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Mouse & Anker Vertical Mouse) however I may also pick up a trackball now in addition to those two and rotate the devices around in the hope I can still game for a couple of hours a week on the old Logitech mouse!

You need to build my Ergopwn 9000..

click the link in my signature..

If you don't want to build one... you can either pay for the official vertical mouse from evoluent, or actually just use the nanokk which is an unofficial clone of the evoluent..

Either way, the shape is the most vertical on the market..

the Anker, joywow, etc are all vertical, but not AS VERTICAL as the evoluent shape
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: shadowku on Tue, 31 January 2017, 18:41:21
You need to build my Ergopwn 9000..

click the link in my signature..

If you don't want to build one... you can either pay for the official vertical mouse from evoluent, or actually just use the nanokk which is an unofficial clone of the evoluent..

Either way, the shape is the most vertical on the market..

the Anker, joywow, etc are all vertical, but not AS VERTICAL as the evoluent shape

I first looked at this mouse a while ago when I first stumbled across it in person. I didn't buy it because of the price and because I don't have wrist pains but I was intrigued enough to try the Anker, which is pretty cheap.

Is it really the case that the more vertical the better though? I feel like the diagonal position of the Anker seems more natural for me when my hands are at the desk, especially for when I move my hand from the keyboard to the mouse momentarily to do something but it's never for long. Maybe one day I'll get to try it and decide if it's worth it for me to either buy the Evoluent or to take a look at the Ergopwn.

Is the Ergopwn cheaper to build than to buy the Evoluent?
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: childofthehorn on Tue, 31 January 2017, 19:10:14
Elecom Trackballs. I have been using an Elecom programmable thumb trackball for a year and a half. Never going back.

I have the wired version of this guy and the price is right at $40: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B016QCPNUW/ref=psdcmw_11036491_t1_B00O1HYXSI

Previous used very pricey gamer mice and even the big glowing trackball you see often on Massdrop. This is the best IMO.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 31 January 2017, 20:10:11


I first looked at this mouse a while ago when I first stumbled across it in person. I didn't buy it because of the price and because I don't have wrist pains but I was intrigued enough to try the Anker, which is pretty cheap.

Is it really the case that the more vertical the better though? I feel like the diagonal position of the Anker seems more natural for me when my hands are at the desk, especially for when I move my hand from the keyboard to the mouse momentarily to do something but it's never for long. Maybe one day I'll get to try it and decide if it's worth it for me to either buy the Evoluent or to take a look at the Ergopwn.

Is the Ergopwn cheaper to build than to buy the Evoluent?



Vertical up to 70 degrees. that's approximately the neutral angle of the wrist assuming the elbow is at rest. if your upper arm is raise higher , as in your mousing surface is higher up,  then the neutral angle is still 70, but RELATIVE to the mousing surface it's less than 70, and so you can get away with using a flatter mouse if your typing surface is higher.


Cost..  it's not cheaper in anyway if you include labor..   but a gpro or g403 are have come out now, so they're better choice if you do decide to build the ergopwn today.. because they have mechanical wheel encoders which means you wouldn't have to do the usb hub splice like I did .

the only problem with buying the evoluent mice straight up is that it's expensive AND it doesn't have a great sensor, the sensor firmware also angle snaps pretty aggressively..

Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: shadowku on Tue, 31 January 2017, 23:15:10
Vertical up to 70 degrees. that's approximately the neutral angle of the wrist assuming the elbow is at rest. if your upper arm is raise higher , as in your mousing surface is higher up,  then the neutral angle is still 70, but RELATIVE to the mousing surface it's less than 70, and so you can get away with using a flatter mouse if your typing surface is higher.

Cost..  it's not cheaper in anyway if you include labor..   but a gpro or g403 are have come out now, so they're better choice if you do decide to build the ergopwn today.. because they have mechanical wheel encoders which means you wouldn't have to do the usb hub splice like I did .

the only problem with buying the evoluent mice straight up is that it's expensive AND it doesn't have a great sensor, the sensor firmware also angle snaps pretty aggressively..

Sorry I didn't look too much into the Ergopwn but I'm guessing that to build it, you have to buy another mouse to extract the sensor? Hence, gpro/g403? This Ergopwn is looking more and more interesting to me. 

I wouldn't be using the mouse for any sort of super-precision task like design or gaming, so I'm guessing the evoluent mouse is at least as good as the Anker? I haven't directly compared the two.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: shadowku on Tue, 31 January 2017, 23:29:07
Elecom Trackballs. I have been using an Elecom programmable thumb trackball for a year and a half. Never going back.

I have the wired version of this guy and the price is right at $40: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B016QCPNUW/ref=psdcmw_11036491_t1_B00O1HYXSI

Previous used very pricey gamer mice and even the big glowing trackball you see often on Massdrop. This is the best IMO.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I was looking at the trackball from Massdrop because my dad really likes track balls. Was there anything wrong with it?
What's so good about the Elecom? I am pretty intrigued by this because my dad's track ball mouse is getting pretty old. I do want to check this out.

Another thing is that.. I feel that there is far less need for a track ball mouse to be wireless since the idea is that the mouse is stationary.. I guess it makes cable management easier and you can use it at further distances..
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: childofthehorn on Tue, 31 January 2017, 23:42:29


Elecom Trackballs. I have been using an Elecom programmable thumb trackball for a year and a half. Never going back.

I have the wired version of this guy and the price is right at $40: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B016QCPNUW/ref=psdcmw_11036491_t1_B00O1HYXSI

Previous used very pricey gamer mice and even the big glowing trackball you see often on Massdrop. This is the best IMO.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I was looking at the trackball from Massdrop because my dad really likes track balls. Was there anything wrong with it?
What's so good about the Elecom? I am pretty intrigued by this because my dad's track ball mouse is getting pretty old. I do want to check this out.

#1 The CST LTrac is expensive, but well made. However, it's HUGE and the ramp up if you rest your palm bents the wrist unnaturally.

#2 CST has an impossible to actually use scroll wheel without physically moving your arm.

#3 CST middle clicks is not in a good place for any sized hand.

#4 CST ball is a PITA to clean.

#5 Elecom comes in Thumb trackball and pointers as well as wired or wireless

#6 Elecom has much more natural shape and works for small or large hands for relaxed position.

#7 Elecom ball is easy to clean, secure but has an opening you can push from the other side to push out the ball.

#8 Elecom comes with 5 programmable buttons including the ability to have a scroll-slow button.

#9 Elecom is 1/3rd the price.

#10 Elecom ball can be easily replaced if lost with a Logitech one.

#11 Elecom has a clicky, multidimensional scroll wheel which is sooo useful.

#12 In terms of accuracy, the Optical sensor on the Elecom trackball feels equivalent despite not being laser, just a good sensor.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: davkol on Tue, 31 January 2017, 23:46:28
As someone who has been recently diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome I'm curious to know how this works out for you i.e are you able to use the ergonomic mice/trackball and yet still play a round or two of your favourite game on a more traditional mouse without suffering too much discomfort?
I don't play games much these days, and basically never action games, but yeah, I have no problem using an ordinary gaming mouse (such as Roccat KPM) for a while. Grinding in Diablo II all night probably wouldn't do me much good, though.

Note that my primary issue is with tendons or finger joints, thus I'm mainly concerned about clicking. I've also eliminated many requirements to use a pointing device or click with it; e.g., I use "focus follows cursor" or follow links in web browser using a feature in VimFx, that is similar to Access key.

I was looking at the trackball from Massdrop because my dad really likes track balls. Was there anything wrong with it?
What's so good about the Elecom? I am pretty intrigued by this because my dad's track ball mouse is getting pretty old. I do want to check this out.
If you mean CST, those are some of the best-quality trackballs in the market. Amazing support from the company too. Great for modding. The ergonomics can be a bit problematic though, because you have to figure out, how to position your wrist and what motions to use. That said, you can swap hands and use multiple postures.

About Elecom, well, the hardware is average to mediocre. Esp. ****ty wheels and no proper protective coating on the shell (mine shines after a few months). The shapes are less suitable for someone with larger hands, but they (both thumb-operated and the asymmetrical finger-operated) work for me fine; not as great as Microsoft's though. Anyway, it's a tradeoff. Elecom uses reasonably modern sensors, for example, thus a larger/multihead setup is usable at 1500 cpi.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: childofthehorn on Wed, 01 February 2017, 01:12:02
Man, must have been a bad batch or you are really harsh compared to my use. I use the Elecom thumb trackball every day for my job and home. Year and a half later and mine has almost no shine and looks basically brand new. The cables they use suck though... But it doesn't move so... Eh!

Not discounting the CST Trackballs on quality, construction, or customer service. If you want to buy a piece of technology for 15 years, it might be the best bet out there. However, unless the laser is replaceable, the service life won't be more than 8-10 max.
 I have had two high end laser mice (a Logitech  no longer made a decade ago) and a Razer Orochi 2013 die where the laser got weak and eventually ran out.

Then again, I am mostly in terminals and windows where I need keyboards more than mice. With TMK being where it is now, I can do basic Mousing without having to move off of the board.

Again, trackpads are always an option. No click stress on most of those. The Apple ones are popular in my office, esp. among the other *keyboard* peeps.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: davkol on Wed, 01 February 2017, 02:01:14
I own Elecom M-XT2 and M-DT1.

The wheels are awful, each in a different way (one creaks and wiggles a ton, the other one is way too stiff), which isn't surprising, considering that Elecom has used extremely cheap generic parts, that I've seen in some no-name $7 mice.

The shell isn't different from the cheapest OEM mice either. I see similar texture longevity as on Microsoft WMO/IME or run-of-the-mill ABS keycaps—five months in and the top feels nasty, when my hands a bit sweaty, and I don't even sweat much/aggressively. Ugh. I love the coating, that Roccat uses.

The whole thing is cheap overall, and not even polished as some gaming mice, which are still consumables. A comparison to CST isn't even fair, because they're a completely different class (and this (https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/comments/5odxjt/why_my_cst_trackball_is_the_end_game/)).

Again, trackpads are always an option. No click stress on most of those.
Ugh. That's like saying, that a touchscreen puts less stress on fingers than a physical, say, laptop keyboard.

Tapping on a hard surface is perhaps even worse, at least for joints. I've considered going the other way around, though, and using Cherry MX in a trackball like sordna did with his mice.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: LuX on Wed, 01 February 2017, 05:00:27
I must say I have been pleasantly surprised with my CST. I didn't think I would like it much, but my opinion has changed. Although I do think adding thumb buttons is crucial in my experience. I also made software to use the ball as a scroll wheel, never going back to a regular scroll wheel... The ability to seamlessly scroll horizontal and vertical, accurately, and at the same time fly through documents is amazing. I use one of those jelly wrist rests at the base of the device as an arm rest, together with the thumb buttons it elevates my wrist position to around 30°, and fairly straight relative to my arm. I'm also able to us the trackball for fps gaming quite comfortably, coming out on top frequently, which is odd given how trackballs in gaming are considered a joke. I almost prefer the trackball when it comes to sniping. The only thing I don't like particularly is spamming the buttons while trying to operate the ball at the same time as that results usually in jittering and missing all shots. Mice are righteously the primary input device for gaming, but trackballs have many advantages over mice, though it requires a lot more dexterity and finesse.

Not discounting the CST Trackballs on quality, construction, or customer service. If you want to buy a piece of technology for 15 years, it might be the best bet out there. However, unless the laser is replaceable, the service life won't be more than 8-10 max.
The laser is separately attached via a flex cable, meaning you could probably buy a replacement sensor from the company. As far as customer service goes, my first unit was a monday-product all around. When I asked for replacement parts, they insisted on having the entire product replaced. Rather inconvenient. The design has some flaws, but I can see that the way it is, it's for a reason. Large buttons are easy to press from any position your hand may be while using the ball, the middle click is easy to press IMO. Scroll wheel is a little too far, almost reachable without moving my hand, but it's usage is avoidable through software. The size of the ball is great, I wouldn't mind it being even a little bigger. I wish it had more thumb/pinky buttons and a more ergonomic slope, but I'm overall happy with the way it is.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 01 February 2017, 11:45:11
Vertical up to 70 degrees. that's approximately the neutral angle of the wrist assuming the elbow is at rest. if your upper arm is raise higher , as in your mousing surface is higher up,  then the neutral angle is still 70, but RELATIVE to the mousing surface it's less than 70, and so you can get away with using a flatter mouse if your typing surface is higher.

Cost..  it's not cheaper in anyway if you include labor..   but a gpro or g403 are have come out now, so they're better choice if you do decide to build the ergopwn today.. because they have mechanical wheel encoders which means you wouldn't have to do the usb hub splice like I did .

the only problem with buying the evoluent mice straight up is that it's expensive AND it doesn't have a great sensor, the sensor firmware also angle snaps pretty aggressively..

Sorry I didn't look too much into the Ergopwn but I'm guessing that to build it, you have to buy another mouse to extract the sensor? Hence, gpro/g403? This Ergopwn is looking more and more interesting to me. 

I wouldn't be using the mouse for any sort of super-precision task like design or gaming, so I'm guessing the evoluent mouse is at least as good as the Anker? I haven't directly compared the two.

For the ergopwn.. you are extracting the ENTIRE innards of the other mouse..

The ergopwn that I've built uses both the innards of the original mouse and the new one, because the logitech g303 uses an optical wheel system vs the mechanical system in the nanokk.. So while the buttons are all wired through the g303 pcb the wheel is wired through nanokk pcb.  That's why there's 3 pcbs in the photo.

nanokk + hub + g303.


If now we get a gpro or g403,  you don't need the hub or nanokk pcb.. because the gpro and 403 both use mechanical encoders, so you can do a complete swap.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: Creek on Thu, 02 February 2017, 11:37:37
You need to build my Ergopwn 9000..

click the link in my signature..

If you don't want to build one... you can either pay for the official vertical mouse from evoluent, or actually just use the nanokk which is an unofficial clone of the evoluent..

Either way, the shape is the most vertical on the market..

the Anker, joywow, etc are all vertical, but not AS VERTICAL as the evoluent shape

Funnily enough I had considered doing something similar to this. I have an old Razer Copperhead laying around that has naff micro switches on and was considering transplanting the sensor into a wired ergonomic mouse and using the shell + switches of a cheap ergonomic mouse much like you have done! I have tried the wireless Anker vertical mouse now that I have it and it's fairly hopeless for anything that requires precision, although for general use it's fairly good! I am going to pick up one of the evoluent clones you've suggested (they're cheap enough to experiment on) and maybe have a go at modding it.

If you have two wireless mice then swapping them isn't a huge feat as you can just leave both dongles plugged in at all times (may require a USB hub if you're on a laptop). The only thing is that you'll probably want to manage a rotation of rechargeable batteries. The Anker is also cheap enough (both wired and unwired) to at least give it a shot. I haven't tried the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic but I think there's one or two lying around in my office so maybe I'll give that a try. One thing that I actually found that helped was switching to a shorter keyboard (Fullsize -> TKL) so that my hands weren't so far apart. I can't really use a full size keyboard anymore because I end up sitting lopsided and it's not very comfortable.

Desktop, so plenty of USB devices isn't a concern  :thumb:, although I have all of the pointing devices attached to a hub so that I can remove them easily if necessary. Handily the wireless mice all have a simple on/off switch on them that makes the whole setup simple to work with. I'm also using a tenkeyless board with a separate wireless numpad for those occasions I need it. Thankfully I don't seem to experience any pain issues typing with the light linear switches I have in the board.

I don't play games much these days, and basically never action games, but yeah, I have no problem using an ordinary gaming mouse (such as Roccat KPM) for a while. Grinding in Diablo II all night probably wouldn't do me much good, though.

Note that my primary issue is with tendons or finger joints, thus I'm mainly concerned about clicking. I've also eliminated many requirements to use a pointing device or click with it; e.g., I use "focus follows cursor" or follow links in web browser using a feature in VimFx, that is similar to Access key.

Ah I see, my issue is more with the wrist. I did try about an hours worth of normal mouse use and found it was ok. As soon as I felt the slightest tingle of pain I immediately stopped and then went back to the ergonomic pointers and feel that this is a acceptable compromise for me!

Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 02 February 2017, 19:12:43
I used the Wow Pen Joy for a few years but then switched to the Anker, which I now consider to be significantly better.

My strong recommendation is to get an "angled" mouse and not a truly vertical one, like the Evoluent, which is horrible.

Unfortunately, while there are good choices for the right hand, but I have never found one for the left.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: madhias on Fri, 03 February 2017, 00:05:14
Every pointing device sucks in one way or another. The only solution is to swap more different devices and/or use more body parts (both hands, perhaps feet, eyes or various body gestures). Exercise is obviously important too.

I just wanted to add to this topic that I also swap the mouse devices, and swap the mouse hand from time to time. So I use the mouse for a while with the left hand instead of the right hand. What I also like to use for a while (right now) is a pen, namely a Wacom device. It is not very accurate to use instead of the mouse all the time, but when I use it, it is almost the whole working day.

Again, trackpads are always an option. No click stress on most of those. The Apple ones are popular in my office, esp. among the other *keyboard* peeps.

At home I sometimes only use the trackpad of the MacBook, but I really can't use it for a long time. I can't even imagine to use it on a daily basis, but I would have to try and even try once a single trackpad. My Wacom tablet has this feature, but it is not that good, or I can't use it properly.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: childofthehorn on Fri, 03 February 2017, 00:22:39
I don't like the trackpads, but you can mount them however works for you.

Thumb trackball for life. Yes, even in FPS games. You can do so many quick movements not possible on a traditional mouse, like a quick spin. Plus, use the slowdown button on your pinky or ring finger for extremely accurate sniping. I find it quite versatile.

As far as "rubberizing" goes... I use this : https://www.rustoleum.com/pages/about-rust-oleum/rustoleum-press-room/rust-oleum-news/rust-oleum-leakSeal-flexible-rubber-coating-stops-leaks-instantly/

I just clean the surface with alcohol first for anything I want more texture on. Made some DIY rubberized keycaps on a couple grab bag spares. Held up really well, not at all like plasti-dip which comes off.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: elecplus on Fri, 03 February 2017, 11:27:11
They do make other types of mice....
https://www.elecshopper.com/penguin-wired-mouse.html (https://www.elecshopper.com/penguin-wired-mouse.html)
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: happylacquer on Fri, 03 February 2017, 15:34:20
Did we mention trackballs yet? No?  :p
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 03 February 2017, 17:06:05
I think the track pad is probably the most ergonomic..

because you can just use a knuckle..  and your hand would be completely upright..

Or perhaps use one of those metal/rubber pens which work with the track pad

or i guess you'd just get the wacom hahahahahha..



But for precision , there's no substitute for the mouse..


I don't understand what's taking so long with that infrared scanner camera majiger..
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: blno on Mon, 06 February 2017, 14:04:56
This worked very well for me while I had my ergodox:

This is the DXT mouse wireless?
How do you like it? How is the build quality? Have you been able to compare it to other vertical mice?

It's tempting for me but kind of expensive in Europe (about $130).
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: MajorMajor on Wed, 08 February 2017, 07:59:31
Vertical mice the way to go! It takes a few days to get used to it, but I love it now. Regular mice feel terrible.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: lolpes on Wed, 08 February 2017, 08:23:36
This worked very well for me while I had my ergodox:

This is the DXT mouse wireless?
How do you like it? How is the build quality? Have you been able to compare it to other vertical mice?

It's tempting for me but kind of expensive in Europe (about $130).

Yes that is the one. The build quality is fine although the rubberized coating on the mouse started to wear off on the spots where my fingers usually rest. been using the mouse for almost a year now and no problems whatsoever with it other than cosmetic wear. Battery life is excellent and usually take just a couple hours to charge, and can be used while charging.

I don't have any experience with other mice, I started using this one because I was selected as tester for the mouse (and got it for free) for gamming due to their upcoming release of a gaming focused vertical mouse.
Title: Re: Need an ergo Mouse
Post by: happylacquer on Wed, 08 February 2017, 15:36:56



But for precision , there's no substitute for the mouse..




My TrackMan and AWP records in CS beg to differ  :D