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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Awful on Sat, 13 January 2018, 12:25:21

Title: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: Awful on Sat, 13 January 2018, 12:25:21
I'm back! I haven't been on here for years! Kind of neat to see so many of the OG's around still. Anyway, my Filco's A and E keys are chattering pretty consistently. I tried cleaning the switches using air/isopropyl alcohol etc. So last night I desoldered the A and E switches (and swapped my space to a clear but that's a different story) and they're still chattering.. I don't understand how this is possible. I haven't spilled anything on it and have pretty much babied it. She's only a year old :( any suggestions? Could my controller be bad?
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 13 January 2018, 12:32:56
Welcome back, you're too OG for me :))

According to the DT wiki (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Controller_matrix_traces#Pinout_and_matrix_2) the A and E keys are not in the same row or column on any Filco keyboard, but at only a year old maybe yours is an unlisted model?

If it was a controller issue it would affect the whole row or column connected to the damaged pin not two random keys, so if it's not a new board I would say it's not the controller.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: Awful on Sat, 13 January 2018, 12:47:12
I've been here since 2011 haha! My board is the camo edition (not the rerelease with the special caps) the pcb says 2012 so it's nothing super new. Thanks for the link I guess it's not the controller then. This is way out there but the switches I replaced them with were originally clears that I stem/spring swapped to be browns. It's highly unlikely it's the springs, right? I feel like I'm grasping at straws at this point. 
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 13 January 2018, 13:43:29
you likely have a cracked trace.

Use a wire and bridge all sections of the traces for that switch all the way to the controller
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: Awful on Sat, 13 January 2018, 17:26:12
After popping it out of it's case... It's stopped on those two keys.. After placing it back the X key is only registering here and there.. I mean I could live with that, how often do I press X anyway ha.. but now I'm just scratching my head (and ass) in awe wondering "wtf?". I've noticed the pins going in to the cable where it slides into the socket (not sure what to call it) feel quite loose or do I have some kind of weird grounding issue going on. I still don't understand how any of this is possible because of it's age and like I mentioned previous, it's never been wet or anything.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 13 January 2018, 19:27:38
Hi Awful,

Is it still in the stock plastic case, or in some aftermarket alu case? It could be a grounding issue if there is some metal touching the switch pins or controller pins.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: Awful on Sat, 13 January 2018, 19:43:40
Hi Awful,

Is it still in the stock plastic case, or in some aftermarket alu case? It could be a grounding issue if there is some metal touching the switch pins or controller pins.

No sir, stock case. That's why I brought up the cable. I couldn't see how the case could be causing the issue, being plastic and all.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sun, 14 January 2018, 04:50:30
Did you open it up before the problem started or only after, to swap the switches?

If the cable runs under the switches the switch pins can pierce it and ground causing them to not register, may only happen if you hit them hard enough (depends how much space there is in the case), the cable could also have moved if the board had a long, bouncy journey.

Given that the problem has 'moved' I suspect this is what's happening - check the cable for tell-tale holes and carefully route it between the switches and you should be good.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: Photoelectric on Sun, 14 January 2018, 10:24:19
Check the soldering quality on the diodes associated with those switches as well (probably need something like a magnifying glass for that).
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: Awful on Sun, 14 January 2018, 20:47:20
Did you open it up before the problem started or only after, to swap the switches?

If the cable runs under the switches the switch pins can pierce it and ground causing them to not register, may only happen if you hit them hard enough (depends how much space there is in the case), the cable could also have moved if the board had a long, bouncy journey.

Given that the problem has 'moved' I suspect this is what's happening - check the cable for tell-tale holes and carefully route it between the switches and you should be good.

I'm leaning toward this as well. I inspected the area that the heat shrink is, that the switches/etc sits on top of and it looked pretty rough. I had taken it out a couple times previous just for cleaning purposes and to try it out in a different case I had. I put new heat shrink on that section and so far, my issues seem resolved.

Thanks for all of the suggestions broskis.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: Awful on Fri, 19 January 2018, 01:03:38
Hope I uploaded this image right. I'm at a loss. It's back and obviously worse.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: suicidal_orange on Tue, 23 January 2018, 05:15:33
Does the problem still go away when you take it out of the case or is it now permanent?

ZXCV are connected in the matrix but you have no problem with V and the other keys are random so still doesn't look like a controller issue.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: ander on Wed, 24 January 2018, 01:27:52
Man, I've had the same problemónot just with my Filco, but with every keeb I own. I've got to soundproof my office door so I don't have to listen to my wife on the phone.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: OfTheWild on Wed, 24 January 2018, 10:52:34
definitely looks like intermittent controller issues... chatter is micro shorts (on/off/on) during the actuation right? If you really wanted to get fancy you could reflow all the controller pins with some flux and solder wick.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 24 January 2018, 11:01:24
definitely looks like intermittent controller issues... chatter is micro shorts (on/off/on) during the actuation right? If you really wanted to get fancy you could reflow all the controller pins with some flux and solder wick.

Or just buy a bpiphany Pegasus Hoof (https://1upkeyboards.com/filco-pegasus-hoof-controller.html) programmable replacement controller for it.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: Awful on Sun, 28 January 2018, 06:06:57
definitely looks like intermittent controller issues... chatter is micro shorts (on/off/on) during the actuation right? If you really wanted to get fancy you could reflow all the controller pins with some flux and solder wick.

Or just buy a bpiphany Pegasus Hoof (https://1upkeyboards.com/filco-pegasus-hoof-controller.html) programmable replacement controller for it.

Thanks for the link Jd. At this point, I'm debating on just buying something completely new... Seems like a good excuse for a new kb in my opinion haha!
BUT, if I did go that route. How hard is it to program a controller? What I mean is, is it basically plug and play? I just want my board to work properly. I don't really need the "programmable" stuff. It would be incredible if I could find a user who had upgraded his to a Pegasus, and hook me up with his old one haha.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: Awful on Sun, 28 January 2018, 06:10:56
I would hate to replace the controller, only to find that, it isn't the issue also.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: rich1051414 on Sun, 28 January 2018, 06:17:28
Chattering nearly always has to do with intermittent connection. The question here is, what is causing the intermittent connection. I would start at the switch and work back. If it isn't the switches themselves, the next thing I would assume would be that a trace is cracked. I would first start checking the matrix lines associated with the keys that are the biggest offenders. Once you locate the crack, use a mod wire to bridge it.

I don't know if I would skip from the switches straight to the micro-controller. That has disappointment written all over it.

PS:Also, if it is a crack in the trace, you probably cannot see it without a microscope, but gently flexing the keyboard will help, since the trace would only disconnect anyway when flexing when a key is being pressed. It may have to be located logically by keeping a log on which keys are chattering, then label them with the matrix lines until you find the correlation. If there is no correlation at all, then the micro-controller is bugging out.
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 28 January 2018, 12:44:33
Awful, if you need a new Filco, just hit me up in PM. Iíll make you a good deal. :)
Title: Re: Chattering even after changing switches? Fkn Filco issues.
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sun, 28 January 2018, 12:51:19
It would be incredible if I could find a user who had upgraded his to a Pegasus, and hook me up with his old one haha.
Good idea, you could look in the thread for a happy customer - no harm asking.