Author Topic: Intellistation 6225 Overhaul  (Read 19841 times)

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #50 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 04:41:56 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;177059
Even if it wasn't, I'm only getting 3072MB, 32-bit would accept something like 3400MB.


Not necessarily, it varies from machine to machine. It can range anywhere from 2.5GB to 3.5GB depending on the motherboard and what sort of hardware is attached.

Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #51 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 23:37:25 »
Quote from: ch_123;177181
Not necessarily, it varies from machine to machine. It can range anywhere from 2.5GB to 3.5GB depending on the motherboard and what sort of hardware is attached.


The IBM manual says it is supposed to support 4GB of RAM. I myself was wondering about the motherboard, but the issue seems like something else.
I'm almost positive the sticks aren't defective, I mean, it still says its running in dual channel, and every piece of software I've thrown at it (CPUZ, speedfan, and windows itself) says I do have all 4GB in there and gives me all the info on them.
I'll just be thankful for my 3GB then. It's a nice computer ;)
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Offline kishy

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« Reply #52 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 23:40:58 »
It's supporting 4GB just fine...if it didn't, the machine wouldn't POST.

Supporting and addressing as usable memory in this case are not the same thing.
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Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #53 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 03:49:59 »
Quote from: kishy;177463
It's supporting 4GB just fine...if it didn't, the machine wouldn't POST.

Supporting and addressing as usable memory in this case are not the same thing.

This.

4GB is the Total Addressable RAM. This includes your Main RAM, I/O, VGA etc... as said, it will vary from machine to machine. The best case, if your RAM was not supported would be to see half of it if that is related to chip density, but usually, again this has been said, it won't complete POST.

If you are indeed using a 64bit OS, then something must be reserving memory before your OS kicks in. This is hardware, so playing around in the BIOS may reveal something (Or brick your board... *shrug*).
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #54 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 15:29:34 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;177460
The IBM manual says it is supposed to support 4GB of RAM.)


I was talking about the OS here.

Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #55 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 15:38:14 »
Quote from: InSanCen;177479
This.

4GB is the Total Addressable RAM. This includes your Main RAM, I/O, VGA etc... as said, it will vary from machine to machine. The best case, if your RAM was not supported would be to see half of it if that is related to chip density, but usually, again this has been said, it won't complete POST.

If you are indeed using a 64bit OS, then something must be reserving memory before your OS kicks in. This is hardware, so playing around in the BIOS may reveal something (Or brick your board... *shrug*).


Well even memtest only wants to see 3071MB.

Nothing was reserving a GB to itself when I only had 2GB of RAM.

The BIOS is very big, but I may have a looksie later.
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Offline kishy

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« Reply #56 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 15:44:55 »
The addressing space only has room for "so much". When you only had 2GB, the part of the addressing space used by that other crap wasn't eating up your usable RAM.

Since the other stuff takes precedence for the system to operate, if you install 4GB but the system can't give addressing space to everything, you notice a chunk of your 4GB is missing.

Software can only see what can be (and has been) addressed.

Think about it like this. We're having new siding put on our house so the address plate isn't up currently. If Canada Post has a package to deliver, they will come to my street. My house is here...but it isn't addressed. They can't deliver the package or even realize where I live, or that I live on this street ("in this computer").
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #57 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 15:47:11 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;177590
Nothing was reserving a GB to itself when I only had 2GB of RAM.


It doesn't work like that.

A computer has a memory map to which every piece of memory is given an address. This includes your RAM, but it also includes any cache memory any device on your system has, the memory of your graphics card, and a certain portion of the top segment of memory is reserved by the system. (this amounts to a few hundred megabytes in a 32-bit system, and was the same reason why you could only access 640K out of 1MB in DOS, which was designed for chips with a 20-bit address bus)

RAM is generally given the lowest priority, so if there's any overlap, the system will give the addresses to other things before RAM. That ~1GB was always mapped, but it never would have eaten away at your RAM when you only had 2GB installed as there was enough space for both the 2GB of RAM and the ~1GB of system resources on a 4GB table. Same story if you have 3GB in, but once you get into 4GB, there's conflicts, and the system recognizes that it has 4GB, but only makes ~3GB or so available.

EDIT: Damn you Kishy... =P

Offline JBert

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« Reply #58 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:06:14 »
Quote from: kishy;177596
The addressing space only has room for "so much". When you only had 2GB, the part of the addressing space used by that other crap wasn't eating up your usable RAM.

Since the other stuff takes precedence for the system to operate, if you install 4GB but the system can't give addressing space to everything, you notice a chunk of your 4GB is missing.

Software can only see what can be (and has been) addressed.
Ehr, that just isn't an issue on a 64 bit architecture where you can address up to 256TiB.

Maybe the BIOS simply won't announce more to the OS whereas Memtest and CPU-Z query the hardware directly.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #59 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:12:20 »
16EiB good sir, not 256TiB.

Offline kishy

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« Reply #60 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:14:13 »
Whoops, that is correct. In that case I've got some terminology mixups but the same principle applies...Windows just isn't...wait...

It's 64 bit Windows, on 64 bit hardware...why isn't it...what?
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Offline ricercar

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« Reply #61 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:17:10 »
Is the following mental model anywhere near accurate for the x86 architecture?
  • In 16-bit systems, hardware addresses default to between 640KB and 1MB, and must be remapped for people who actually used >640K RAM.
  • In 32-bit systems, hardware addresses default to between 2GB and 4GB, and must be remapped for people who actually use >2GB RAM.
« Last Edit: Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:19:40 by ricercar »
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #62 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:37:51 »
Yes, but as I said about, the early x86 platforms actually used 20-bit address buses.

"Lolwut?!!" I hear you exclaim, "surely they were 16-bit!"

Warning: long rant about low-level CPU stuff ahead.[/u]

They were and they weren't. The "bits" of a CPU is an ambiguous term which can refer to one of three things -

1. The size of the data/address registers (in a CISC CPU) or general purpose registers (RISC CPUs).
2. The width of the address bus.
3. The width of the data bus.

The registers are small pieces of ultra-fast memory used for CPU operations (bigger ones allow larger operations to be carried out more efficiently), and for accessing memory addresses (when the CPU wants to access a piece of memory, it loads that address into one of it's registers)

The data bus moves data from the CPU to external devices and vice-vera, and the address bus is used to tell the rest of the system which part of memory it wants to access. (note in this context memory means not only RAM, but also the addresses of hard disks, graphics cards, I/O devices etc that the CPU might want to move data to and from)

In most systems, they are not the same size. Take the Intel 8088 for example. It had a 20-bit address bus to allow it to access up to 1MB of memory (a 16-bit bus can only access 64K - i.e. 2^16 bytes), 16-bit registers and an 8-bit external bus to access I/O devices (the 8086 had a 16-bit bus, but 16-bit buses and the devices that supported them were deemed too expensive at the time). A more contemporary example would be that of the Athlon 64 - it has 64-bit registers, a 128-bit data bus and a 48-bit address bus (because an Athlon 64 will never need to support 2^64 bytes of RAM, they limited it to cut costs, Intel does the same with it's chips)

The primary limiting factor with RAM size is the size of the address bus. If the address is too big to be sent over the bus, it can't happen. The other limiting factor is the size of the address registers, but this can be overcome, as shown with the 8088 where there was a 4-bit discrepancy, however, this can be quite hackish, and supposedly the 8088 and 286 had horrible segmented memory issues which were probably related to the fact that the registers weren't big enough to hold the addresses that the CPU was operating on.
« Last Edit: Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:47:28 by ch_123 »

Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #63 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 21:44:22 »
Quote from: JBert;177610
Ehr, that just isn't an issue on a 64 bit architecture where you can address up to 256TiB.

Maybe the BIOS simply won't announce more to the OS whereas Memtest and CPU-Z query the hardware directly.


Memtest is only limited to 3071MB like windows, speedfan and CPUZ can detect all 4GB.

Here's a screenshot of the properties on my computer:
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #64 on: Sat, 01 May 2010, 03:25:50 »
I wonder if you ran a 64-bit Ubuntu live CD whether it would pick up 4GB or 3GB...

Offline JBert

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« Reply #65 on: Sat, 01 May 2010, 05:15:16 »
Quote from: ch_123;177611
16EiB good sir, not 256TiB.
Oops, forgot to add that 256TiB is the current implementation limit.
You are right, 16 EiB is the real limit when all address lines are used.

Quote from: ch_123;177755
I wonder if you ran a 64-bit Ubuntu live CD whether it would pick up 4GB or 3GB...
Seconded. When you are booting anyway, there might be some kernel logging explaining what hardware it found. I'll take look at my own log directory to see where it can be found.

EDIT: Here some info from the start of my dmesg log:
Code: [Select]
[    0.000000] BIOS-provided physical RAM map:
[    0.000000]  BIOS-e820: 0000000000000000 - 000000000009fc00 (usable)
[    0.000000]  BIOS-e820: 000000000009fc00 - 00000000000a0000 (reserved)
[    0.000000]  BIOS-e820: 00000000000e6000 - 0000000000100000 (reserved)
[    0.000000]  BIOS-e820: 0000000000100000 - 00000000cfe90000 (usable)
[    0.000000]  BIOS-e820: 00000000cfe90000 - 00000000cfea8000 (ACPI data)
[    0.000000]  BIOS-e820: 00000000cfea8000 - 00000000cfed0000 (ACPI NVS)
[    0.000000]  BIOS-e820: 00000000cfed0000 - 00000000cff00000 (reserved)
[    0.000000]  BIOS-e820: 00000000fff00000 - 0000000100000000 (reserved)
[    0.000000]  BIOS-e820: 0000000100000000 - 0000000230000000 (usable)
[    0.000000] DMI present.
[    0.000000] AMI BIOS detected: BIOS may corrupt low RAM, working around it.
[    0.000000] e820 update range: 0000000000000000 - 0000000000010000 (usable) ==> (reserved)
Currently got 8GB RAM in this sucker (testing some of my brother's RAM sticks) and it seems to be in there somewhere. Mind that this includes device data, but the "(usable)" parts are probably RAM.
« Last Edit: Sat, 01 May 2010, 05:26:00 by JBert »
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #66 on: Sat, 01 May 2010, 16:24:59 »
Quote from: ch_123;177755
I wonder if you ran a 64-bit Ubuntu live CD whether it would pick up 4GB or 3GB...


I'll try that later; I'm curious myself as well.
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Offline datamonger128

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« Reply #67 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 00:11:08 »
I seriously want to know how an old Pentium 4 based system has a higher Windows Experience Index than my 3 month old laptop.  My laptop rates at 3.9 in Windows 7 64-bit.
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Offline kishy

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« Reply #68 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 00:24:14 »
Late model P4s...in fact virtually any P4 for that socket...are actually pretty kickass chips, and very competent still.

I think they're missing an instruction set or two, and they're VERY inefficient heat/energy wise, but for raw performance they've got what it takes to keep up...

Early P4s, forget it. They're like dogs, but not just dogs...dogs without legs.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #69 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:13:21 »
Quote from: datamonger128;178003
I seriously want to know how an old Pentium 4 based system has a higher Windows Experience Index than my 3 month old laptop.  My laptop rates at 3.9 in Windows 7 64-bit.


Manufacturers like IBM had access to the higher-end intel chips before they were released publicly.

It's not a slow system at all (otherwise I wouldn't be using it as my main), it is 3.4 Ghz. The only area I found it slow was major multi-tasking and heavy CPU audio stuff, like FM/RM synthesis on sytrus. Which is why I was thinking about getting a Pentium D presler.

And, laptops are slower than desktops, horrible bus speeds, even new laptops today have like 800Mhz bus speeds; the same as my "old pentium 4 based system" which is 5 years old. It ages well. Like cheese.
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Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #70 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:41:21 »
Quote from: datamonger128;178003
I seriously want to know how an old Pentium 4 based system has a higher Windows Experience Index than my 3 month old laptop.  My laptop rates at 3.9 in Windows 7 64-bit.


That score reflects the lowest subset score. In your laptop, this is likely your hard drive. If that scores a 3.3, and everything else is a 5, then you still score 3.3. What it probably means, without looking at the subset score, is that his HD is faster then your HD.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #71 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:51:21 »
Quote from: InSanCen;178022
That score reflects the lowest subset score. In your laptop, this is likely your hard drive. If that scores a 3.3, and everything else is a 5, then you still score 3.3. What it probably means, without looking at the subset score, is that his HD is faster [strike]then[/strike] THAN your HD.

Incorrect, everything on my intellistation scores 5 and above, the processor is rated 4.2. The only reason WHY it scores 4.2 is lack of multi-cores.
My SCSI scores very high actually.

And a laptop made recently with a hard drive scoring 3.3 would be horrifying. Even my old IDEs made in 1995 could score better than that. Particularly my 2 GB western digital caviar.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #72 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 03:44:30 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;178015
it is 3.4 Ghz.


Gasps! That's like... a 2.2GHz Athlon 64?

Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #73 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 03:46:29 »
Quote from: ch_123;178041
Gasps! That's like... a 2.2GHz Athlon 64?


Ahhh I hate AMD processors (used them in my custom built computer and a stupid HP).

Intel is waaaay better.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #74 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 05:19:09 »
There are HP computers that use AMD processors, therefore AMD CPUs are unilaterally bad?

Wait a second, I need to grab a pen to write all this down...

Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #75 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 16:44:01 »
Quote from: InSanCen;178022
That score reflects the lowest subset score. In your laptop, this is likely your hard drive. If that scores a 3.3, and everything else is a 5, then you still score 3.3. What it probably means, without looking at the subset score, is that his HD is faster then your HD.


Quote from: EverythingIBM;178028
Incorrect, everything on my intellistation scores 5 and above, the processor is rated 4.2. The only reason WHY it scores 4.2 is lack of multi-cores.


Emphasis is mine. Reading comprehension 101, you might want to enrol kiddo.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #76 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 16:50:18 »
Quote from: InSanCen;178252
Emphasis is mine. Reading comprehension 101, you might want to enrol kiddo.


I'll take reading comprehension if you take grammar 101.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #77 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 16:55:36 »
InSanCen, he really got you there... You gotta admit it.

Offline zwmalone

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« Reply #78 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 18:05:07 »
Quote from: kishy;178005
Late model P4s...in fact virtually any P4 for that socket...are actually pretty kickass chips, and very competent still.

I think they're missing an instruction set or two, and they're VERY inefficient heat/energy wise, but for raw performance they've got what it takes to keep up...

Early P4s, forget it. They're like dogs, but not just dogs...dogs without legs.
Yeah, my P4 630 (3GHz with SSE3 & 2MB of cache) kept up just fine with the SL-42 Sempron in my brand new laptop... (2.21ghz)
EDIT: For most things... due to the higher memory speed (2GB of DDR2-800 vs 1GB DDR-400 ECC) and DX10 graphics, the notebook pulls ahead in games...
« Last Edit: Sun, 02 May 2010, 18:22:14 by zwmalone »
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Offline datamonger128

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« Reply #79 on: Sun, 23 May 2010, 03:20:10 »
How goes the overhaul, IBM?
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #80 on: Sun, 23 May 2010, 03:40:32 »
Quote from: datamonger128;185951
How goes the overhaul, IBM?

For now I just found a cheap 9229 and will use it as the replacement for computing power:

(it's the smaller one, lol).

The only thing I could really upgrade is get a 3.8 Ghz P4, maybe the power supply, a vantec 80mm tornado (which I'm planning to get for fun, only $15 on ebay), and that's really all I can think of. When I get advanced enough, I want to use some better thermal paste on the heatsinks. Probably better than IBM's stock thermal paste, whatever they used. That's not anytime soon though :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 23 May 2010, 03:54:09 by EverythingIBM »
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #81 on: Sun, 30 May 2010, 23:34:36 »
Quote from: ch_123;177599
It doesn't work like that.

A computer has a memory map to which every piece of memory is given an address. This includes your RAM, but it also includes any cache memory any device on your system has, the memory of your graphics card, and a certain portion of the top segment of memory is reserved by the system. (this amounts to a few hundred megabytes in a 32-bit system, and was the same reason why you could only access 640K out of 1MB in DOS, which was designed for chips with a 20-bit address bus)

RAM is generally given the lowest priority, so if there's any overlap, the system will give the addresses to other things before RAM. That ~1GB was always mapped, but it never would have eaten away at your RAM when you only had 2GB installed as there was enough space for both the 2GB of RAM and the ~1GB of system resources on a 4GB table. Same story if you have 3GB in, but once you get into 4GB, there's conflicts, and the system recognizes that it has 4GB, but only makes ~3GB or so available.

EDIT: Damn you Kishy... =P


Well this is probably old news, but you're right! Windows 7 had some RAM thing which showed me which parts of the RAM were being used and reserved. The computer is reserving 1 GB to itself for hardware. I don't know why. Greedy bastard intellistation.
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