Let's talk about switch "Deadzones"

[ClackHead]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here for a couple weeks slowly driving myself insane on which mechanical keyboard to get and I've decided to join the club.

I'm down to purchasing a FILCO TenKeyLess but I can't make up my mind on Blue or Brown Switches. I've read all the threads, posts and wikis about it and I've watched several Youtube videos more times than I'd like to admit.

What is important to me is that my fingers feel what they are actually doing. That is if I feel on my finger an increase in resistance and then a sudden drop, I would like to think that I've activated something at this moment.

Let's take a look at a chart I've found on elitekeyboards.com:





The red lines indicate what I like to call "dead-zones". That is areas after a perceived peak in resistance but before actual switch activation on a downstroke (I hope I am understanding these charts correctly).

So the Brown switches have a first hump at just under 60g of pressure followed by a second subtle hump just under 50g of pressure. The first hump which is the far more noticeable is just sensory and actually actuates nothing. The second hump will be practically unnoticeable at normal typing speeds. Only on the second hump does the switch actually activate. So me as a user I would perceive a deadzone from the top of the first hump to the top of the second hump which is about 0.8mm of travel until the switch would actually fire if I pushed down the key slowly. I would feel something happening but nothing would until a slight moment later. The key would feel kind of lazy if I had to describe it in one word.

Now the Blue switches have one hump only. It is a sharp increase of resistance to about 60g of pressure and then a sudden drop which ends with switch activation immediately. So my finger would feel a switch and have it actually activate almost immediately unlike the browns. The sensory feedback seems more precise in this case. To my finger this switch would feel responsive if I had to describe it in one word.

This also brings up the point of everyone saying that the brown switches have an activation point of 45g and the blues having an activation point of 50g. While this is true, I don't think it's what really matters. To my fingers, this wouldn't matter because I would feel the resistance of about 60g on both switches and then a sudden drop where my finger would quickly accelerate down and activate the switch even if a slight increase of 1g or 2g in resistance is still coming. My finger would just blow right through it.

So all that's left to compare is the distance traveled by the key from perceived  activation (~60g) and actual activation of the key (~45g or ~50g) in which case the Brown switches have a much bigger gap (aka deadzone) than the blues.

Am I making any sense? Am I interpreting these charts correctly? Have I gone mad?

[itlnstln]

You would never notice it in practice.  I don't think you could press the switch slow enough or gently enough to even feel it.  That "deadzone" only exists on paper.  If you could experience it, you would ridiculous motor control.  Just use them, and see which you like better.  Don't analyze those graphs too much; they're better used when you think about the overall force curve.

[ClackHead]

Welcome to Geekhack!

Instead of going slowly crazy we hope to make you quickly crazy.

First of all don't believe Elite's Blue Chart chart (damn Majestouch, didn't you READ the Geekhack Wiki!). The reset point is actually at a different point giving the switch what's called a hysteresis effect.  This tends to bug people more than the tactile point not equalling the activation point.  

In fact, MOST switches have a different actuation point than tactile point and in practice it doesn't matter all that much.  The exception is a Buckling Spring.

EDIT: wow, I agreed with ItlnStln.  That's kinda spooky.

I wasn't really paying any attention to the reset point until now. To be honest I didn't notice anywhere giving it much importance.

So here are the graphs for these switches taken from the GeekHack wiki:





So what does the reset point actually describe?

From what I can tell, it matters for repeated consecutive key presses of the same key or when I want to reactuate the key before it has come back to its rested position. So again, if I am understanding the charts correctly, the browns would be much more responsive on quick consecutive key presses of the same key than the blues?

Is there any thing else?

[Findecanor]

At the point that you get across the tactile bump, you have such high pressure that you will travel past the "deadzone" at such a high speed and little time, that you won't normally be able to notice it.
With either type of switch, it is almost impossible to press past the tactile bump and not actuate the switch.

If really good tactility is what you are after and you think that you can live with the noise, then I think that you should get a keyboard with Cherry blue switches. The tactility of the Cherry brown switches is very light. The switch was a disappointment to me at first, but I have learned to appreciate it after a bit of training. The Cherry blue switch has also been voted the favourite switch on the forum.

Your assessment about the reset point is correct. but I think that the reset point position before the tactile bump is what is desirable -- you would want to feel the tactile bump each time that you actuate the key. With the Cherry browns, you could actually press the key twice while you are below the tactile point -- as if the switch was linear.

[ClackHead]

At the point that you get across the tactile bump, you have such high pressure that you will travel past the "deadzone" at such a high speed and little time, that you won't normally be able to notice it.
With either type of switch, it is almost impossible to press past the tactile bump and not actuate the switch.

If really good tactility is what you are after and you think that you can live with the noise, then I think that you should get a keyboard with Cherry blue switches. The tactility of the Cherry brown switches is very light. The switch was a disappointment to me at first, but I have learned to appreciate it after a bit of training. The Cherry blue switch has also been voted the favourite switch on the forum.

Your assessment about the reset point is correct. but I think that the reset point position before the tactile bump is what is desirable -- you would want to feel the tactile bump each time that you actuate the key. With the Cherry browns, you could actually press the key twice while you are below the tactile point -- as if the switch was linear.

What I am after is good tactility all around. The first key press tactility being most important and consecutive key presses tactility coming after (by very little).

So If I were to re-actuate a switch before it has reached it's reset point, it would not register? Is this correct?

Because I think I would rather feel a tactile bump every time I actuate a key no matter what the circumstance. My brain associates everything to the tactile bump.

[Rusty Rat]

Because I think I would rather feel a tactile bump every time I actuate a key no matter what the circumstance. My brain associates everything to the tactile bump.

If you really want a tactile bump when you activate a key then look at a Model M. After using blues and browns I settled for blues - tactile and clicky. Coming from a Model M I could never get used to the very subtle browns.

Filco tenkeyless are a great option but if you want  a small size keyboard that is really tactile then get a Model M Spacesaver I (Mini)

[kriminal]

by chance have you had any experience with a mechanical keyboard?

[ClackHead]

If you really want a tactile bump when you activate a key then look at a Model M. After using blues and browns I settled for blues - tactile and clicky. Coming from a Model M I could never get used to the very subtle browns.

Filco tenkeyless are a great option but if you want  a small size keyboard that is really tactile then get a Model M Spacesaver I (Mini)

by chance have you had any experience with a mechanical keyboard?

I have had experience with IBM Model M keyboards and I like them. But they are too loud and big. I also want to have NKRO on my new board.

I have very tuned motor skills and I feel pretty much everything if I can say so myself. I love the tactility of the Buckling Spring keyboards but they are a bit stiffer than I would like.

I'm starting to think the Cherry Blues are pretty much ideal for me from listening to myself.

[ClackHead]

Anyone know where to get the red geekhack escape keys?

[Infinite north]

If you are having a hard time visualizing the cherry blue actuation reset this flash animation can help.

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech/cherry_mx_click.swf

[ClackHead]

If you are having a hard time visualizing the cherry blue actuation reset this flash animation can help.

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech/cherry_mx_click.swf

Thanks that's awesome.

[dz_alias]

Thanks that's awesome.

Is this the 5 o'clock free crack giveaway?

[ClackHead]

Is this the 5 o'clock free crack giveaway?

lol

In other news I've gone and ordered the FILCO Tenkeyless with blue switches.

[JBert]

So If I were to re-actuate a switch before it has reached it's reset point, it would not register? Is this correct?

Because I think I would rather feel a tactile bump every time I actuate a key no matter what the circumstance. My brain associates everything to the tactile bump.

Actually, the reset point is where the computer notices you "released" the key. If you don't go past the reset point, it doesn't matter whether you press the key down completely or very close to the reset point.
The problem this causes is that "button mashing" becomes next to impossible if you need to press the same key repeatedly. Most games won't require such idiotic strokes, although UT 2k4's dodge move or GTA IV's end-game sequences are notorious for this kind of thing.

Most of the time, you won't notice it though. Unless you are a full-time gamer, a mechanical keyboard with "hysteresis" (another word for when the state of the switch changes at different points) can be used for typing as well as gaming.

I have had experience with IBM Model M keyboards and I like them. But they are too loud and big. I also want to have NKRO on my new board.

I have very tuned motor skills and I feel pretty much everything if I can say so myself. I love the tactility of the Buckling Spring keyboards but they are a bit stiffer than I would like.

I wanted to answer that a model F might be lighter when properly modded and has NKRO on PS/2, but they remain as big as the model M and have a more noticeable sound. Also, they are truly old-school looking.

[ClackHead]

Actually, the reset point is where the computer notices you "released" the key. If you don't go past the reset point, it doesn't matter whether you press the key down completely or very close to the reset point.
The problem this causes is that "button mashing" becomes next to impossible if you need to press the same key repeatedly. Most games won't require such idiotic strokes, although UT 2k4's dodge move or GTA IV's end-game sequences are notorious for this kind of thing.

Most of the time, you won't notice it though. Unless you are a full-time gamer, a mechanical keyboard with "hysteresis" (another word for when the state of the switch changes at different points) can be used for typing as well as gaming.

I wanted to answer that a model F might be lighter when properly modded and has NKRO on PS/2, but they remain as big as the model M and have a more noticeable sound. Also, they are truly old-school looking.

understood thanks.