Author Topic: N-key rollover test.  (Read 201728 times)

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Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #400 on: Fri, 27 August 2010, 06:40:47 »
Quote from: ripster;196144
Anything rubber dome except for the Microsoft X4 is going to be 2 key rollover.
Incidentally, I just happen to know a little bit about the X4. (Recently had a short conversation with one of the designers, public parts posted here.)
 
This engineer worked on anti-ghosting issues (thus our conversation). He disclosed that the X4 uses membrane switches and "resistive multitouch" matrix (said to be equivalent to a full diode matrix); apparently a lot of careful attention went into the anti-ghosting design for this model so that it could compete in the gaming keyboard market while retailing at low cost. I personally have little doubt that it will equal or surpass n-key capabilities of similarly placed gaming keyboards.
« Last Edit: Fri, 27 August 2010, 06:51:04 by Konrad »

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #401 on: Sun, 29 August 2010, 02:58:33 »
Well, I don't know Paul Dietz was the guy I mentioned (though it seems quite likely).
 
I wouldn't say it's fair to accuse him/them of trolling.
 
(I would happily accuse Ripster of trolling.  You understand well the geeknerd mindset ... though utterly lacking in social skills or non-WoW etiquette forms of any sort, any geeknerd worth his salt will endlessly prattle on explaining and expounding his vastly specialized knowledge ... I think it's a natural mechanism which nerds use to find compatible nerd partners to bond with, a perverse analog of the social interactions other animals use to attract mates.)
 
It seems fair to say these engineers are experts on the topic, after all they are the ones who design the keyboards many many thousands of people will purchase. Each of their decisions, tradeoffs, compromises, faults, and improvements can have noticeable impact which people could talk about for years. If they blunder *coughVistacough* then the corporate image suffers and **** rolls downhill when the marketing teams begin to notice declining profits/revenue.
 
In my particular instance the guy was quite helpful, he didn't answer all of my questions but still offered a number of unsolicited tips which I'm confident let me avoid some common pitfalls while getting a healthy head start on my project.
 
I understand engineering quite well; I know that whether the engineer is passionate or disgruntled makes a big difference. I know that (contrary to popular misconceptions) most real engineering efforts are dedicated to improving the manufacturing process instead of the manufactured product. And I know that these poor bastards often have to endure stressful deadlines, bureaucratic idiocy, incompetently haughty managers, pencil-counting accountants, endless reports and technical documents, and the (sometimes false) assumption that every other part the other engineers are working on will always work exactly right. (Those problems are sometimes diverted to non-engineering experts, but not always.)
 
Personally, I'm a little shocked and disgusted that Microsoft would use membrane tech on a mid-priced (circa $100) keyboard. It's corner-cutting and clearly shows where mass-produced keyboards are all going to be in a few years; Microsoft has learned (from examples like Unicomp, etc) that there's no sustainable profit in building keyboards that last for decades. They're cheap (though not inexpensive) and they're disposable. Consumers don't truly "know" what quality is anymore, and (for the most part) only equate quality expectations with brand name recognition and price comparisons - everybody knows that you get what you pay for and lower prices are not always the bargain they appear to be - but most have never purchased (high priced) products with real quality so they don't have a useful experiential reference frame. Ergo, the humble keyboard, soon to be yet another cheapass mass-disposable uncommodity like most cellphones and laptops.
 
Since "my" MS guy is an expert on analog signalling I suspect that his job is all about trying to design keyboard matrices that use multiplexed ADC signalling methods. Microsoft's PSK and "optimus minimus" are obvious applications of the method, and the X4's "resistive multitouch" is probably just a way to recycle this new idea in such a way that screenprinted circuit components will functionally replace more costly discrete diodes.
 
Anyhow, not trying to badmouth the guy, I actually thank him for volunteering to unobfuscate common misconceptions, and he certainly saved me a lot of time and frustration. But he's got a job to do just like everybody else, even though his just happens to be for evil Microsoft.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 August 2010, 03:22:55 by Konrad »

Offline PAINKILLER

  • Posts: 51
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #402 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 22:25:05 »
Guess which keyboard is NKRO...



It is made by... Microsoft!
































Offline keyboardlover

  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #403 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 22:31:06 »
Hmmm interesting...is it the Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600?

Offline PAINKILLER

  • Posts: 51
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #404 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 23:20:05 »
LOL I included an actual picture of it, with the name written on top.

PS: Sorry for the bad quality pictures, but my graphics card broke and is awaiting replacement so I have to make do with a PCI S3 Virge 4MB, which cant even support high resolutions and true color :D
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 September 2010, 23:27:37 by PAINKILLER »

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #405 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 07:24:52 »
Quote from: ripster
But yah, I wish iMav would wikify stickies, edit the OP, or something. This is turning into a pretty useless sticky ...
lol, I suspect iMav is a busy man. Overlooks a few (sticky) loose ends here and there. He probably just polled this thread out when he wanted opinions about something, got what he wanted (or didn't want), then promptly forgot all about it and left his helpful community litter all over the bloody place.
 
It's what I would do. :hail:
 
[Edit]
 
If it bugs you so much, rip, why don't you apply for an Admin job, eh?
« Last Edit: Sat, 04 September 2010, 09:13:28 by Konrad »

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #406 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 09:29:01 »
I like their (not quite available) Razer Marauder.  It almost certainly uses Razer's standard unimpressive nkey, but look at all those pretty lights!
 
Best nkey I've yet seen was on the Merc Stealth.  6 keys (plus mods, so 9 keys) in the gamepad portion.  Main keyboard portion was only generic USB (2-4 nkeys, sometimes 1-6, depending on what's pressed).
 
Do ye know anything firsthand about SteelSeries 7G/6Gv2 nkey?  The advertised specs promise limitless perfection.  The reviews I've read describe reviewers bashing and flailing about randomly with both hands then authoritatively asserting that "every single keystroke properly registers" ... I'm not properly convinced they know what the **** they're talking about.

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #407 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 10:03:50 »
Thanx!
 
I'll admit I'd only really read about the first 40 and last 20 before posting here ... missed about 500 ;)

Offline keyboardlover

  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #408 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 10:49:49 »
Quote from: PAINKILLER;219763
LOL I included an actual picture of it, with the name written on top.

PS: Sorry for the bad quality pictures, but my graphics card broke and is awaiting replacement so I have to make do with a PCI S3 Virge 4MB, which cant even support high resolutions and true color :D


Maybe it's just me, but I only see two pictures and neither is of the actual keyboard...

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #409 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 11:22:21 »
Found the 7G info at #296, reported as 9 keys.
 
I notice Search this Thread doesn't work at all, not even when viewing page 8 where #296 is posted. Maybe we should sticky a thread about that so people can find out (when their Search fails)?
 
Don't crank, just unsubscribe.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 September 2010, 11:25:52 by Konrad »

Offline PAINKILLER

  • Posts: 51
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #410 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 11:40:38 »
@keyboardlover: It is the best picture of Microsoft On-Screen Keyboard, XP version that I could make.

Quote from: ripster;220111
I'm cranking on this Nkey Wiki  BTW - it's gonna snuff this most useless of stickies.
Nice one taking the time to do it. It will be greatly appreciated.
Edit: Adding keyboard models that are NKRO-moddable (non-blocking, mechanical switch based) like my Ortek MCK-101A would be useful info too.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 September 2010, 11:47:23 by PAINKILLER »

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #411 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 11:56:27 »
I applaud your diligence, rip.
 
"Gaming Optimized" means what exactly?  A responsive WASD-cluster?
 
Good luck with the reading instructions thing.  Even the military can't successfully get everybody to listen, read, and think; although The Enemy helps a lot in weeding out the stupids.

Offline keyboardlover

  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #412 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 12:20:25 »
Quote from: ripster;220127
I meant I'm creating a Nkey entry in the wiki section of the forum summarizing which keyboards are:

Tested Full NKRO or Tested 6-Key

"Gaming Optimized" and failure modes

Standard 2KRO and failure modes

As well as halfway coherent instructions on how to test.  Reading this thread shows that 99% of the American population needs to join the Military and learn how to follow instructions.


Thanks ripster - that will be really helpful.

Offline PAINKILLER

  • Posts: 51
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #413 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 12:36:46 »
Quote from: ripster;220138
Got a link?  Frankly I'm concentrating on the currently shipping models and the classic keyboards:  IBM and....uh, IBM.


What link? I only know it's moddable because I did it and I believe any keyboard that exhibits phantom key presses and is mechanical switch-based should be considered NKRO-moddable. Those will be only very old models though. Anyways, I guess I or other people who care can add this info to that wiki entry.

Offline erricrice

  • Posts: 326
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #414 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 13:09:33 »
G80-8113LRCUS-2

Brown Cherry POS 'board.

I'm gonna have to call this one N-key (36)

I\'m selling all my Shizz! Please buy it!

White ALPS: Northgate Omnikey 101-NCS(Real-Complicated)****Filco Zero FKBN87Z/EB(Fukka Simplifieds)****Siig MiniTouch(XM Simplifieds)
Black ALPS: Black Dell AT-101W(Real-Complicated)****ABS M1(Modded Black ALPS, Linear)
Buckling Spring: Model M 1391401(1988 & 1993)
Cherry Blues: DAS III Pro
Cherry Blacks: Cherry G80-11900
Cherry Browns: 3X Cherry G80-8113LRCUS-2
Cherry MY: G81-7000HPBUS-2****G81-3000LANUS-0****Modded to 20g
Rubber Dome: HHKB Lite 2 (White & Black)

Logitech G5[/FONT]
Erricrice\'s Song of the Day: Gorillaz - El Maņana
Yup, Blatantly stealing this from you Kishy, hope you don\'t mind, it\'s a great idea.

Offline erricrice

  • Posts: 326
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #415 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 15:19:29 »
Quote from: ripster;220163
Yep, I had that one for a while too to harvest Double shots off of.  AKA MX8100.

That and one other Cherry POS keyboard (where is that sucker in this 35 page thread?) are NKRO.  For a while the Cherry "Advanced Performance Line" was rumored to all be NKRO but that proved to be false.

I have to work on this Nkey Keyboard Reference Wiki in small bursts.  Gives me a headache.  I figure I have until the Razer Pseudo-Nkey BlackWidow ships before it gets interesting.


Lol, yeah even for us it's hard to sift through all the Razer BS.

And I wish this one had Doublshots...sadly it is only lasered.
I\'m selling all my Shizz! Please buy it!

White ALPS: Northgate Omnikey 101-NCS(Real-Complicated)****Filco Zero FKBN87Z/EB(Fukka Simplifieds)****Siig MiniTouch(XM Simplifieds)
Black ALPS: Black Dell AT-101W(Real-Complicated)****ABS M1(Modded Black ALPS, Linear)
Buckling Spring: Model M 1391401(1988 & 1993)
Cherry Blues: DAS III Pro
Cherry Blacks: Cherry G80-11900
Cherry Browns: 3X Cherry G80-8113LRCUS-2
Cherry MY: G81-7000HPBUS-2****G81-3000LANUS-0****Modded to 20g
Rubber Dome: HHKB Lite 2 (White & Black)

Logitech G5[/FONT]
Erricrice\'s Song of the Day: Gorillaz - El Maņana
Yup, Blatantly stealing this from you Kishy, hope you don\'t mind, it\'s a great idea.

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
N-key rollover test.
« Reply #416 on: Wed, 08 September 2010, 10:52:59 »
This thing should be de-stickied, it's useless now that Ripster's wiki is up.
« Last Edit: Wed, 08 September 2010, 11:28:05 by ch_123 »