Help - Rubber Dome Newb

[Nadger]

I'll be honest until Razer emailed me about their Black Widow and claimed to be the first mechanical keyboard ever, I had no idea what mechanical keyboards were.  After looking into it more i found this site and read as much as i could before my eyes started killing me.  The wiki and posts on these forums were very very helpful.  As well as the few Youtube videos i stumbled across.

So now I know I REALLY want a mechanical keyboard.  The next question was which switch do I want and finally what aesthetics.

As much as I have read and understand each of the key switches now, I'm still finding it difficult to choose one, as I have never used any of them.

So to kind of help myself work out what i want, i need to map all the information in my head out so i can decide.

I am not sure if all the info is correct or not so you guys can help me with that.

Part 1: Switches

Cherry MX Blacks - Linear
General Consensus: Best for gaming

• Key Down: Starts at 40Gs of force, Actuates a 60, Bottoms out at 80.
  
• Key Up: Resets very quickly after actuation point.
  
• Advantage:: You could teeter totter between 1.75mm and 2.0mm key travel to actuate key presses very rapidly which is helpful in gaming.
  
• Advantage: Stiffer Springs make accidental key presses much less likely
  
• Advantage: Fairly Quiet if you don't bottom out the keys
  
• Disadvantage: Gamer Fatigue. If you hold they key all the way down until it bottoms out your finger tips are exerting 80gs of force to keep the W bottomed out, your fingers will get tired after a while, especially the pinky when its duty is to hold down shift for long periods of time.
  
• Disadvantage: No actuation point feedback.  Since there is no tactile touch or audible click at actuation point, it does not give that confirmation that your keystroke was recognized.
  

Cherry MX Reds - Linear
General Consenus: Good for gaming if you have a problem with finger fatigue and are not heavy handed as these are the easiest switches actuate.

• Key Down: Starts at 30Gs of force, actuates at 45, bottoms out at 60.
  
• Key Up: Resets very quickly after actuation point
  
• Advantage: Rapid keystrokes (see mx blacks)
  
• Advantage: Lighter springs make finger fatigue impossible as bottoming out only requires 60g of force.
  
• Advantage: Quiet
  
• Disadvantage: Accidental key presses.  Since it only takes 45g to actuate, heavy handed people may find themselves actuating a key just by resting the fingers on it.
  
• Disadvantage: No actuation point feedback. (see mx blacks)
  
• Disadvantage: Not readily available outside asia.
  

Cherry MX Clears/Whites - Tactile
General Consensus: Fairly well rounded switch good for gaming and typing.  Very similar to browns but stiffer.

• Key Down: Starts at 40Gs of force, rapidly escalates resistance, tactile feel at 65Gs of force, actuates at 55Gs of force, rapidly escalates resistance until bottoming out at 100g of force.
  
• Key Up: Resets shortly after actuation point, but can not easily be pressed again until the key rises above the tactile feel point.
  
• Advantage: Tactile bump lets you feel if your keystroke registered.
  
• Advantage: High tactile feel bump point @65Gs prevents accidental keystrokes
  
• Advantage: Fairly Quiet, 100Gs bottom out force and tactile feedback will ensure you hardly ever hear bottom out noise.
  
• Disadvantage: Finger fatigue if key is held down bottoming out at 100g of force.
  
• Disadvantage: No extremely rapid repeat key presses due to tactile feel point bump.
  

MX Cherry Blues - Tactile Click
General Consensus: Best for touch typists, not so good for gaming due to reset times.

• Key Down: Starts at 30Gs of force, tactile feel & click at 60G's of force, actuation at 50Gs of force, bottoming out at 65Gs of force
  
• Key Up: Resets a longer ways away from actuation/tactile point.
  
• Advantage: Tactile Click lets you hear and feel that your key was registered.
  
• Advantage: Fairly high tactile click point prevents most accidental key presses.
  
• Advantage: No finger fatigue. Bottoming out at 65Gs of force prevents it.
  
• Disadvantage: Noisy, the audible clicks can be satisfying to the typer but annoying to others.
  
• Disadvantage: Reset point is farthest way from actuation point of all switches making very rapid repeat keystrokes impossible as you need to wait for the key to go nearly all the way up.
  

Cherry MX Browns - Tactile
General Consensus: Not bad for gaming or typing, heavy handed people may have some issues.

• Key Down: Starts at 38Gs of force, tactile feel at 55Gs of force, actuates at 45Gs of force, bottoms out at 60Gs of force
  
• Key Up: Reset point right on top of actuation point
  
• Advantage: Tactile Feel lets you feel that your keystroke was registered.
  
• Advantage: No Finger Fatigue. Bottoming out at 60gs of force prevents it.
  
• Disadvantage: Accidental key presses, since the pressure point is only at 55 and it actuates at 45 you may occasionally hit a few keys by accident.
  
• Disadvantage: While browns are quick to reset, you still have the tactile bump to deal with which could sometimes prevent you from doing very rapid repeat keystrokes.
  

The other switches like ALPS i have not looked into much.

Is my information correct?



Part 2: Aesthetics

I personally like backlighting, not because i need to look at my keyboard to type, i just think it looks nice.  My computer's theme is black with blue lighting.  My monitor, case, keyboard and mice (i use two) are all black with blue lighting.  So I would like to stick with this scheme.  But its not necessary to have backlighting.  I think a black keyboard with blue wsad keys and perhaps grey modifier keys etc would look good with my setup as well.

So with that in mind i have a few questions

1. Where can you buy different colored keycaps for mx switch boards?
2. I kind of like the large low profile keys of my lycosa board can you buy that style for mx switches as well?
3. The only backlit mechanical boards that i am aware of are the following:
   Razer Black Window (mx blues)
Deck (black or clear mx)
Xarmor (mx blues)

I use my computer for gaming quite a bit, but i dont need useless features like macros or lcd sceens.  I want a good solid keyboard that can withstand FPS and MMORPG punishment.  My girlfriend has a g15 which i cant stand typing on (the keys are very tall, small faced and mushy)

based on this wayyy to long post what would you guys recommended for me?

Thanks!

[microsoft windows]

I've heard of Cherry MX keyboards with backlights. I think there's even a couple of guys here who got them.

[lmnop]

I would buy the Deck Legend Ice. I think fatigue is blown out of proportion. Deck has a 30 day return policy so you can return it to get your money back.

[lmnop]

I didn't say way

lots of people buy the steelseries 7g and 6gv2 at OCN. I don't think I have read any complaints about fatigue. I haven't read any complaints about the flat profile on the Deck Legend either. I can see why it would bother you because your a typist, but the Deck Legend is a mechanical keyboard marketed towards gamers.

[lmnop]

lol. I sent the Deck Hammer to your inbox Nadger.

[Phaedrus2129]

Wait for the iOne XArmor U9BL-S. I did a review of the MX blue version here, http://hardwareaware.com/review/xarmor-u9bl/ The U9BL-S will have MX browns which are generally considered a good compromise between typing and gaming. Personally they're my favorite switch. Also, their tactile bump is a boon to gaming, because it gives you a "ledge" affect, where you can partway depress the switch and hold it right about the actuation point with very little effort, cutting 1mm off the travel when you need to move in the game meaning a millisecond faster reaction.

Personally I find MX browns the best for typing and gaming and my two favorite keyboards are the MX SPOS and G80-8200 with MX browns, but your mileage may vary.

[lmnop]

what about interference with the modifiers on shortcuts?

[Phaedrus2129]

what about interference with the modifiers on shortcuts?

I did start finding a few annoyances; running forward (shift+w) and trying to quicksave (F5) results in a null action in most games. Not critical or anything. But if I'd kept the board I probably would have assigned those functions elsewhere. Not a huge deal though.

[Nadger]

Assuming you have your heart set on backlit I'd wait until the Razer ships.  If the reviews look good buy that.

Deck would be my second choice but since I like tenkeyless that confines me to Cherry Blacks and I can't stand those for typing.  Also, the flat  profile from row to row of the Deck keys I think would bug me.  I don't trust the Xarmor and they are only available from one retailer right now where the Razer will get HEAVILY discounted.

And there IS no consensus here on what switch is best for what, only statistics (and that's pretty skewed to typing).

Would you rather type on mx blacks or a rubber dome?  Because rubber dome is what i am used to so even if typing on blacks isnt as nice as blues will it still feel like an improvement over rubber domes?

Yeah my plan is to wait for the black widow so i can go into best buy and try it out to see if i like the way it feels compared to a steelseries 7/6g which i assume they will have also.

I dont need all the macro stuff on the razer one but i suppose it cant hurt to have it there.  Im just worried about the clickyness of blues annoying the crap out of my girlfriend whos computer is about 5 feet away from mine, and we are both on our computers all day long.

lol. I sent the Deck Hammer to your inbox Nadger.

Nice, thanks for the info, lots i didnt know about decks.  I really like that flat profile that decks have.  Between the blue and the ice, blue might match my deathadder/naga a bit better but damn the ice just looks cooler.  Really leaning Deck atm.  But i do want to give the black widow a look too.

Wait for the iOne XArmor U9BL-S. I did a review of the MX blue version here, http://hardwareaware.com/review/xarmor-u9bl/ The U9BL-S will have MX browns which are generally considered a good compromise between typing and gaming. Personally they're my favorite switch. Also, their tactile bump is a boon to gaming, because it gives you a "ledge" affect, where you can partway depress the switch and hold it right about the actuation point with very little effort, cutting 1mm off the travel when you need to move in the game meaning a millisecond faster reaction.

Personally I find MX browns the best for typing and gaming and my two favorite keyboards are the MX SPOS and G80-8200 with MX browns, but your mileage may vary.

When i first read about browns i thought man 45g actuation will be too light.  But thats slightly misleading because you actually need to press the key to 55g of force to get it over that hump.  So they do seem like a good combo between gaming and typing

When will the U9BL-S be released?

[lmnop]

so they nullify other shortcuts? a lot of applications use Shift Keys for shortcuts. if I want to mute I press Shift + F1 but would the application also activate the shortcut? or will it null?

[Phaedrus2129]

Not sure. I've also got some pricing info, but I can't share.

[Phaedrus2129]

so they nullify other shortcuts? a lot of applications use Shift Keys for shortcuts. if I want to mute I press Shift + F1 but would the application also activate the shortcut? or will it null?

I think it will null in that situation. But I don't know if it's implemented at the hardware or driver level. If it's at the driver level you could easily work around with AHK. But if it's hardware you're stuck with it.

[lmnop]

not knowing is worse lol

[lmnop]

I think it will null in that situation. But I don't know if it's implemented at the hardware or driver level. If it's at the driver level you could easily work around with AHK. But if it's hardware you're stuck with it.

thanks. why didn't you find out?

[lmnop]

@Nadger Cherry MX Black Linear are better to type on than a rubber dome.

[Phaedrus2129]

thanks. why didn't you find out?

I didn't really think about it until I'd already agreed to the trade with Ricercar. Then I didn't get around to testing that before shipping it.

I could ask them. Would you like me to?

[lmnop]

sure

[Nadger]

I read your review of the xarmor and you mentioned it has rubberized coating on the keys.  While i initially liked this on my Lycosa, as i used it more and more the W A and D keys i wore the rubber off of.  How does the rubber stand up to punishment over time?

My lycosa has dedicated media keys that i never use and USB ports that I never use.

The frost Deck uses mx clears, from the charts clears are very similar to browns except they take a bit more force to trigger.  Is that how they feel too?

[lmnop]

yes.

Deck explains it best.

The linear switches have an almost consistent force through the entire stroke of the key. This means that when you first start pressing down on the key all the way until you completely bottom the key out as far as it can go, the force you feel at your finger remains the same. Not much feedback besides when you feel the "thud" at the bottom.

The tactile switches have a slightly elevated force around the midpoint of the stroke of the key. So, when you have pressed the key down about halfway, the force increases slightly for a brief moment, and then goes back to normal. This gives your fingers an indication that the key has been pressed so you can stop pressing the key and let up to move on to another key faster.

the Deck Legend Tactile Models don't have a Cherry MX Grey in the spacebar.

[Nadger]

And i would def want the ps2 version of the tactile deck legend frost for NKRO correct?

[lmnop]

And i would def want the ps2 version of the tactile deck legend frost for NKRO correct?

yes.

[lmnop]

you can also change it to USB or vice versa. this is from the Deck user manual.

The keyboard interface can be changed from PS/2 to USB and vice-versa. Converting the keyboard from USB to PS/2 is not recommended unless you are competent at de-soldering electronic components. Please read all instructions before beginning.

In either case, the keyboard must be disassembled by removing the screws from the bottom side of the enclosure using the appropriate sized Phillips head screwdriver. After removing the screws, turn the keyboard upright and carefully separate the top half from the bottom half. Note the routing of the data cord for strain relief purposes so that it can be routed the same way when the keyboard is reassembled. Also, note the location of the “W3” located on the printed circuit board above and between the “F4” and “F5” keys.

If converting from PS/2 to USB, unplug the USB end of the data cord from the Type A USB receptacle located at “J2” and plug the PS/2 end into the 6 pin mini-DIN female receptacle at “J1”’ which is located above and between the “F12” and “PrtSc” keys. Then clip-out and discard the 10K Ohm resistor at “W3”. Reverse the steps to reassemble the keyboard and follow the USB installation instructions.

If converting from USB to PS/2, unplug and remove the PS/2 end of the data cord from “J1” and plug the USB end of the data cord into the Type A receptacle which is located at “J2”. Use a soldering iron and solder removal tool to remove the lead clippings from “W3”. Then solder a through-hole, 10K, 1/4W, 5% resistor at “W3”. Reverse the steps to reassemble the keyboard and follow the PS/2 installation instructions.

[Phaedrus2129]

I read your review of the xarmor and you mentioned it has rubberized coating on the keys.  While i initially liked this on my Lycosa, as i used it more and more the W A and D keys i wore the rubber off of.  How does the rubber stand up to punishment over time?

My lycosa has dedicated media keys that i never use and USB ports that I never use.

The frost Deck uses mx clears, from the charts clears are very similar to browns except they take a bit more force to trigger.  Is that how they feel too?

I think XArmor's rubber coating is a bit more resilient than Razer's. Their keycaps are, exactly:
- ABS plastic dye-subbed around the letter
- Two layers of rubber coating
- Letter laser engraved through rubber
- UV clear coat applied to top

A process Ripster describes as "rube goldberg". They haven't been around long enough to determine just how durable this rubber coating is, but I'd wager it's better than a Lycosa. Even if it does wear eventually the key is still dye-subbed, so the letter will still be distinct, rather than just an ugly blob. It'll be an ugly blurry letter instead.

[Nadger]

Yeah the paint on my W key is even wearing off now.  Soon the W will disappear turning the entire key clear.

I threw together a quick little graph to visualize the difference between a blue and a clear's pressure point, actuation point and release point to help me understand the difference better.  And therefore understand a clear deck vs blue black window. I used the graphs in the wiki to get the points plotted correctly.

I wasnt concerned with force at all in this so its not represented.  Anyway if you are curious heres what it looks like.



up arrow refers to release, down arrow refers to pressure point, and double horizontal arrow refers to actuation/operation point.

I can see with a blue you do have to go back 1/4th of the way to make it release.  and you cant teeter totter with it at all since the release point is before the pressure point.

[Phaedrus2129]

I think it's worth pointing out that hysteresis (the reset point issue you're talking about) does not affect the switche's electrical operation. I spent time on both the Das and XArmor exploring this.

If you depress the switch, and then release it partway to just before the reset point, then depress it again it will actuate. However the white clicker on the slider won't be in position to click. So a blue below the reset point feels like a linear. But if you let it up a little higher, to the reset point, then press right away the clicker will come partway up and "jam" briefly before going down and the key actuating. For those familiar with switches, imagine the feel of an ML switch sticking when you hit it on a corner.

So hovering is possible, but not recommended since it's easy to get into that jamming situation, plus it takes concentration to keep below the reset point. Not worth it. And if you do it on accident it feels very weird and is mildly distracting.

It is very possible to game on blues, but you have to train yourself to let the key come all the way back up before pressing it again (or already do that on your other keyboards I guess), and also learn how to do quick double taps while taking your finger all the way up. Oh, and if getting an MX blue board for gaming, don't get one made by Cherry themselves, since they use green switches for spacebars on MX blue keyboards which, if they're anything like MX grays, would be too stiff to double jump effectively using that method.

[Jalal]

Sorry just a short hijack. Since i have not completely decided on a mech kb i want, i'd like also to get a deck hammer thrown at me please lmnop. Just copy pasted ofc.

[Jalal]

Na, i prefer de Hamma

[Jalal]

You've spoiled it for me... now i prefer a gentle explanation over the hammer.

[lmnop]

here you go ripster the smile of the day

[lmnop]

I was referring to the Cherry MX Black actuation force. lol

[lmnop]

right. nice recovery

[Nadger]

I think it's worth pointing out that hysteresis (the reset point issue you're talking about) does not affect the switche's electrical operation. I spent time on both the Das and XArmor exploring this.

If you depress the switch, and then release it partway to just before the reset point, then depress it again it will actuate. However the white clicker on the slider won't be in position to click. So a blue below the reset point feels like a linear. But if you let it up a little higher, to the reset point, then press right away the clicker will come partway up and "jam" briefly before going down and the key actuating. For those familiar with switches, imagine the feel of an ML switch sticking when you hit it on a corner.

So hovering is possible, but not recommended since it's easy to get into that jamming situation, plus it takes concentration to keep below the reset point. Not worth it. And if you do it on accident it feels very weird and is mildly distracting.

It is very possible to game on blues, but you have to train yourself to let the key come all the way back up before pressing it again (or already do that on your other keyboards I guess), and also learn how to do quick double taps while taking your finger all the way up. Oh, and if getting an MX blue board for gaming, don't get one made by Cherry themselves, since they use green switches for spacebars on MX blue keyboards which, if they're anything like MX grays, would be too stiff to double jump effectively using that method.

Ahh i see i thought i had to reach the reset point to actuate again.  Good to know.  Im not sure if the blues jamming would effect me or not due to the way i do double taps atm if i slow myself down i can feel my finger wait for that topped out vibration feedback before i want to press it down again.

Jamming is of slight concern but noise is of more concern for blues.  My girlfriend and I live together and we're both nerds/gamers so we are on our computers all day and we sit maybe 4 feet apart from each other.  I have a feeling blues would drive her crazy.

[Nadger]

Topre Harley?

[Nadger]

I looked into topre a bit.  The design of them is very cool but  i don't like the idea different weights on w a and d.  makes sense for a typing keyboard but not so much gaming.

The deck is also a linear version and hes hitting the keys very hard and bottoming out.  Heck even my rubber dome lycosa would be loud as hell playing that game like that.

How would you rate all the switches in order of sound btw?

Are browns and clears about the same volume level?

[Phaedrus2129]

There are all-55g Realforce boards, and the Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro is all the same weight as well.

[lmnop]

I looked into topre a bit.  The design of them is very cool but  i don't like the idea different weights on w a and d.  makes sense for a typing keyboard but not so much gaming.

The deck is also a linear version and hes hitting the keys very hard and bottoming out.  Heck even my rubber dome lycosa would be loud as hell playing that game like that.

How would you rate all the switches in order of sound btw?

Are browns and clears about the same volume level?

elitekeyboards sells a 55g version of the Topre.

PCB and Plate mount is a factor but I would rate them Cherry MX Blue -> Cherry MX Clear -> Cherry MX Brown -> Cherry MX Black -> Cherry MX Red. Buckling Spring and Alps are louder than Cherry MX Blue but keep in mind there are a lot of Alps.

[Nadger]

Well i just walked it off and its about 7 feet from her ears to my keyboard, both of our computers running creates some masking white noise.  But yeah its def a concern.  If i end up getting a deck i may end up returning it inside the 30 day window due to noise but we'll see.

[lmnop]

lol

[Nadger]

Earmuffs.

Show Image

She does knit...

[lmnop]

I knit! or try to

[washuai]

Eh, I definitely sit within 7 feet or less of some of my coworkers.  They don't have any issue with cherry browns.  I don't have blues, but I suspect cherry blues wouldn't bother them.  
Some one not absorbed in their own computer world on the other hand, has commented on the sound of my Filco browns, while being in the other frappin' room.  I think there must just be something to the cadence and rhythm of my typing, because said person gets wiggy, even if I'm typing on scissor switches.  She doesn't complain, so much as comment and mostly ignores, when her focus is diverted.

Yes, headphones, earplugs, earmuffs, etc.  Maybe just make sure you get your gf the same board and she'll be so absorbed by her own noise, she won't notice the noise of your keyboard.