Author Topic: Life can be very cruel...  (Read 3901 times)

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Offline patrickgeekhack

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Life can be very cruel...
« on: Fri, 10 September 2010, 21:51:20 »
I went to the funeral of a friend today who died of cancer and I cannot help saying to myself that life can be very cruel for everyone will have to leave this planet one day, causing so much pain in the heart of his/her friends and family in the process.

That friend was such a helpful guy and had a joie de vivre I have rarely seen in others. Yet, he passed away at the young age of 47. All those who were at the service today must have been profoundly touched by him one way or another when he was alive for I have never been at a service where almost everyone was shedding tears, both men and women.

The one thing I did when I came back from the funeral was to hold my daughter tightly when I went to picked her up, knowing that one day, one of us will leave each other. Who will be first? I don't know. I just hope that I will be the one who will go first, but not before many many years.

Offline WhiteRice

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 10:46:30 »
My condolences, it's never easy losing a friend.

Events like always a remind me to live life to the fullest. Because you truly never know when it will end.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 11:17:44 »
Thanks guys. It's true that we need to live life to its fullest because we just never know when you last day will come. This event was one of many that reminded me of that.

Offline keyboardlover

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 11:56:44 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;222007
Thanks guys. It's true that we need to live life to its fullest because we just never know when you last day will come. This event was one of many that reminded me of that.


Sorry for your loss Patrick. I've been to two funerals this year and I know how it feels.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 14:14:53 »
Thanks Keybaordlover, it was not fun that's for sure.

Offline pex

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 08:04:55 »
You, sir, are not ready to be a Jedi yet.

I've always wondered what exactly that feeling is people have at a death given that they already know the impermanence of things, which I often to be 'regret' or 'remorse', and although every person might have a chance to feel differently based on their brain and the facts surrounding, I don't really think there is some basic form of noble or selfless sadness at hand.  Then the question is why these people should be feeling this way, which can be partially tied up into patrick's cognizance of 'living life to the fullest', the substance of which is appreciated by fewer than whom utter it.  Is there a reason to have remorse or regret?  Did you not treat this person right in your time?  And if so, why did you not?

About here interjects the strange nature of 'life' we are thrown into.  Once here I think we are taught some things we are better off not retaining.  Life is strange and cruel, and there are plenty of people around trying to mitigate that through self-illusion (life is a gift, diety, blah blah) just to get by.

But I think there has to be a simpler humanist explanation and direction,
where we accept that cards will be dealt,
that we treat those we know and shall know well,
we learn, and appreciate and cherish our encounters,
and apply all greatness forward.

And so, without unnecessary attachment, we acquire greatness, cherish it, and apply it, which I can't see as anything but the best way to appreciate and remember one another in life or death, foregoing often (learned?) deleterious forms of reaction to this strange world.

tl;dr: patrick, i hope that you approach life, others, and death (equally) positively as they come and assimilate all the good that you can from it, to serve yourself and others.
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Offline patrickgeekhack

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 08:17:05 »
Quote from: pex;223119
You, sir, are not ready to be a Jedi yet.


Indeed, I’m not ready yet.  Maybe it’s because I come from a different culture.

Quote


I've always wondered what exactly that feeling is people have at a death given that they already know the impermanence of things, which I often to be 'regret' or 'remorse', and although every person might have a chance to feel differently based on their brain and the facts surrounding, I don't really think there is some basic form of noble or selfless sadness at hand.  Then the question is why these people should be feeling this way, which can be partially tied up into patrick's cognizance of 'living life to the fullest', the substance of which is appreciated by fewer than whom utter it.  Is there a reason to have remorse or regret?  Did you not treat this person right in your time?  And if so, why did you not?

It’s not regret nor remorse in my case, but rather not being to see him around. We really enjoyed each other’s company, we really enjoy sharing a meal (our wives and us), just like we enjoy the company of their friends too.

Quote


tl;dr: patrick, i hope that you approach life, others, and death (equally) positively as they come and assimilate all the good that you can from it, to serve yourself and others.


I am, really. I am not perfect, but I do try as hard as I can.

Offline Rajagra

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 08:54:54 »
Interesting reply, pex. I suspect you are still relatively young with most of your life ahead of you. That makes it easy to be philosophical, even dismissive about death, because you still feel it is something that happens to other people - even though you know that one day it will come to you. Knowing it and feeling it are two different things. As you grow older you feel less and less immortal. It changes your viewpoint greatly.

I think we all have to delude ourselves that life is worth living. It's a point I considered raising in one of the religion threads, but decided it was too dark a subject. Religion is one way to delude ourselves, but for some of us our logic overcomes our need for such a crutch.

Telling yourself to live life to the full is another way to cope, but don't kid yourself, it is still a way of deluding yourself and ignoring the harshest fact of reality.

Ultimately you do need to decide on something important to you and throw yourself into making the most of that. Patrick, you are lucky to have a daughter. I can't think of anything better than family for giving a reason for living, especially a child. Try to give her as many good memories as possible, as a way of enriching both your lives and giving her something positive to remember when your time comes.

I hope my thoughts aren't too depressing for anyone. I'm still hurting from my mother's death this year. I think it's important to face up to any dark thoughts forced on us by death before we can move on. The fact is people do become desensitized to the grief over time, we do cope and get on with life.

Offline wellington1869

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 10:50:39 »
really sorry to hear about the loss of your friend patrick.
the funny thing about life is how fragile it is, and how little we think about that most of the time.
i took it really hard when my grandfather died, but it was some consolation that he really had a long and full life. we should all be so lucky.
one of my friends from my childhood died recently (suicide via overdose of sleeping pills) and that was the first time one of my peers that I had grown up with had died. Was a real reminder that even us young are not immune to the circle of life.

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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #9 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 20:14:17 »
I'm very sorry to hear about his death. My prayers are with his friends and family.
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Offline Voixdelion

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 00:36:47 »
pex has summed up much of the tragedy in the human condition today.  Regret is an emotion that I think is combated best by living in accordance with your true self, but that is not always the easiest thing to accomplish, and often for reasons that seem trivial in retrospect.  I think our conscience is that pang we feel that moves us to live to the fullest when we are reminded that surely one day will prove that there really isn't time enough to catch up on all that reckoning.  Interesting that we cling to and put so much power in the past and so much stock in the future when the only reality that exists is now.

We suffer greatly when we compromise our reality for deciding when we can be happy in the future, when we finally get that dream job, or finally get out of debt, or finally have a child, or finally get the child out of the house,  or when .... putting it off for later isn't a sound bet because we don't know how much time we have to budget.    

Death, untimely death in particular, can shock us out of that comfortable tucked away "someday" happiness notion, making us realize that if we are to be truly happy, ever, we must do it now.


  I remember that at my Grandmother's funeral, I was much more overcome with emotion than for any of the other 3 Grandparents (I was lucky to have had all four of mine well into adulthood.)  I actually had to step out of the room for a minute to try and compose myself.   And it was not even that I would miss her so, and I didn't feel a sense of personal loss the way my mother did, but I remember sensing that a certain responsibility had been passed to me, a spiritual role in the family that no one else could fill,  and that felt like quite a lot resting on my shoulders.   In retrospect it was almost a panicky feeling, like "Wait! I'm not ready yet!!"  Ready or not, though, it was as it was.


I am confident that the death of any one person is far less of a tragedy for that one person  than for the people who are left behind to mourn them.  Our grief is  not for the deceased, but for ourselves no longer being able to interact  with them in the manner to which we have become accustomed.   But the  body is a temporary haunt for any spirit, and if we are not deluded by  the limitations of the vehicle, we can still sense that spirit even when  the body is laid to rest.   I am very drawn to the New Orleans style funeral celebration, and I should  like my passing to be an affair of that sort rather than one of somber  sadness.  

I do get visited by those passed on occasion, most often  by my dog, usually in dreams, but sometimes when awake too.   My dog is the only one I ever miss strongly, and even then its usually when I am already feeling low because that was when he was best to have around.  He would never exacerbate my mood by sulking with me, but he would insist on shoving his head under my hand or grab a toy, ready to turn any little rag or ball into a party.    He was always a spiritual buoy; his presence amplified what was best in me and rarely was he ever a drain on my energy or attitude the way some people can be, even some dogs.  When I think about him otherwise, I am so grateful for having known a  companion like that, and feel honored that he chose to hang out with me.

Drink a toast to your friend then, Patrick, and thank him.  Friends are wonderful for reminding us who we are.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 September 2010, 00:46:53 by Voixdelion »
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Offline patrickgeekhack

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 10:57:49 »
Quote from: Rajagra;223128
Interesting reply, pex. I suspect you are still relatively young with most of your life ahead of you. That makes it easy to be philosophical, even dismissive about death, because you still feel it is something that happens to other people - even though you know that one day it will come to you. Knowing it and feeling it are two different things. As you grow older you feel less and less immortal. It changes your viewpoint greatly.


Ultimately you do need to decide on something important to you and throw yourself into making the most of that. Patrick, you are lucky to have a daughter. I can't think of anything better than family for giving a reason for living, especially a child. Try to give her as many good memories as possible, as a way of enriching both your lives and giving her something positive to remember when your time comes.

I hope my thoughts aren't too depressing for anyone. I'm still hurting from my mother's death this year. I think it's important to face up to any dark thoughts forced on us by death before we can move on. The fact is people do become desensitized to the grief over time, we do cope and get on with life.


Sorry about the loss of your mother this year. You’re right in saying that we do become desensitized to the grief over time. Actually, only time can help in these situations. We don’t forget completely, but we do become desensitized when we have lost a dear one.

I think you are right too in saying that age does play a big role. When I was a kid, I just could not understand why my relatives would cry when someone in the family was leaving for another country. I always thought that they should be more happy than sad since that person was leaving for the chance to have something better.  But now, I can understand this feeling. Having moved to Canada myself, everytime I have to leave after a visit, I would find it impossible for me to control my tears. It’s just because I know that every time I am leaving it may well be the last time that I saw my father or my mother or my grandfather, etc. The fact that I come from a culture that value family ties more than individuality does help explain that feeling I guess.



Quote from: wellington1869;223179
really sorry to hear about the loss of your friend patrick.
the funny thing about life is how fragile it is, and how little we think about that most of the time.
i took it really hard when my grandfather died, but it was some consolation that he really had a long and full life. we should all be so lucky.
one of my friends from my childhood died recently (suicide via overdose of sleeping pills) and that was the first time one of my peers that I had grown up with had died. Was a real reminder that even us young are not immune to the circle of life.


Thanks.

Quote from: microsoft windows;223439
I'm very sorry to hear about his death. My prayers are with his friends and family.


Thanks.

Quote from: Voixdelion;223501


Drink a toast to your friend then, Patrick, and thank him.  Friends are wonderful for reminding us who we are.


I did 

Offline quadibloc

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 11:47:25 »
Quote from: pex;223119
I've always wondered what exactly that feeling is people have at a death given that they already know the impermanence of things,
Most people do not even try to live life at that level.

They are happy when things happen that promote their survival, and sad when things happen that are contrary to their survival. Or the survival of those they care about.

They seek to do what is right, by not injuring even strangers, by doing things to help others.

But they see no reason to detach their emotions from their self-interest. Life has joys and sorrows because we care about ourselves and about others. Good is caring a bit less about oneself - and more about others; not ceasing to care.

Buddhism may teach that the way to avoid misery is to avoid attachment, but this idea is entirely absent from Christianity, which shaped our culture. To us, the world is not illusion - even if it only exists in the mind of God, that's as real as it gets. And because the world is real, our actions in the world matter.

Offline wellington1869

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 12:26:17 »
Quote from: quadibloc;223617


Buddhism may teach that the way to avoid misery is to avoid attachment, but this idea is entirely absent from Christianity, which shaped our culture. To us, the world is not illusion - even if it only exists in the mind of God, that's as real as it gets. And because the world is real, our actions in the world matter.


well arguably the world is not an illusion to buddhists either (schopenhauer unfortunately was the one to misread/simplify buddhism that way and his interpretation became very influential in western understanding of buddhism). My understanding is that buddhism's view of the world is more subtle than that, merely noting the way our perception of the world affects us and that we have some control over how we choose to perceive it. (in that respect not unlike heideggerian thought and the work of western phenomenologists, who also focused on how perception affects our acts and acts affect perception - they too dont deny the reality of the world, merely that our being immersed in the world makes a clear separation of self/world impossible or difficult). That was basically the buddha's point too, as I understand it. Buddhist enlightenment strove to erase the difference between self/world (loss of the ego) but this did not mean an escape into unreality; it merely meant a union with the world (whether real or unreal was kind of irrelevant). What he said was our perceptions and moods change from moment to moment and therefore should be treated as unreliable for any serious phenomenological or psychological investigation of the world - and that much is basically true, and its in that limited sense that he meant our perception of the world is 'unreal'. The words 'real' and 'unreal' thus get mixed up with meanings of 'temporary' and 'unreliable'; its not in any absolute sense that he says world is unreal (tho surely some jain/buddhist sects may have investigated that possibility as well, just as the solipsists in western philosophical tradition also held that world was literally illusion). But that was not what the buddha said and there is definitely much confusion of terms when he is talking about temporary phenomenon like 'moods' and things in the world as being unreal because they are temporary, not unreal because they dont exist.  

ie, if you read all the subtleties of buddhism, the question of whether the world is real becomes an irrelevant point; what becomes relevant is what our relationship to the world is. ie, like so much eastern philosophy, its not an ontological debate ('nature of reality'), but rather is a values debate ('relationship to perceived reality').  In the west, particularly in the monotheisms, where so much importance is assigned to ontology, this eastern approach of focusing more on the latter question rather than the former question, can appear to be either frivolous or downright threatening.

also arguably christianity has its own brand of 'world is illusion' in its heavy emphasis on "the next world" as being "more real than this one" (welcoming the apocalypse, end times, millenarianism, salvific theology, self-flagellation and hatred of the self, desire for union with god, etc). In these traditions, arguably the difference between real/unreal is far more stark than in buddhism and the dharmic traditions, because in christian theology, our earth is physically separated from heaven, whereas in dharmic philosophy generally, "Being" is one continuity - the gods inhabit the same earth as humans, with any notion of separation being much less significant for the theology than it is in christianity. So all that too is part and parcel of christian theology after all, and is a theology in which this world and this self are temporary holding spaces before the eternal 'real' paradise.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 September 2010, 12:51:10 by wellington1869 »

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Offline clickclack

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Life can be very cruel...
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 15:44:51 »
To patrickgeekhack-

My thoughts and deepest sympathies go out to you and all affected.

I have lost 4 people this year and it has been exceptionally difficult to cope with and grasp. I have not really had to deal with loss before, especially on this scale.

I unfortunately suffer from severe thanatophobia and have ever since childhood. So you could say I have been greatly and deeply disturbed by these personal recent events.

Now having said all of that uplifting stuff, I would like to share something that I feel I have gained-

These individuals have extended our ability to reach the fullness of our emotions and find the incredible depth and beauty in our lives.

Sometimes it's the most painful contrast that gives the most back.

Good luck to you =)

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Offline patrickgeekhack

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« Reply #15 on: Thu, 16 September 2010, 12:06:39 »
Quote from: clickclack;223698


Sometimes it's the most painful contrast that gives the most back.

Good luck to you =)

ok fine, I will go back to making keys...

Thank you. It's true that it is during these times that one starts to reflect on the meaning of life.