Model M Key Feel. YMMV.

[jpc]

THE PUZZLE

Some Model Ms feel light and crisp and bouncy; some feel meaty; and one of mine feels downright gristly (meaty and too stiff.) What causes these differences?

OBSERVATION

Swapping the one-piece key caps from the stiff board onto an identical-spec, light-feeling board makes the lighter board feel meatier. Unless I am imagining things.

HMMM
It's time to think about how to build a force-curve meter. It would be nice to associate a force-curve graph with adjectives like "crisp" or "gristly".

[SmallWalrus]

Unicomps use the 1 piece key caps and they feel crisp and bouncy, so I'm not too sure what you meant by "meaty".

I can imagine why swopping it to 2 pieces might cause the keys to have more "weight" to them and thus feel better though!

[didjamatic]

Different manufacturers, different age, whether it's had rivet damage, varying elements it has been exposed to, the amount of use it has are all factors.  

If it was a 80's Model M that sat on a keyboard rack in a dust free data center fpr 25 years it's going to feel very different than a Lexmark owned by Gallagher.

[MissileMike]

I have a bunch of model m keyboards and yes, they are all over the map in terms of springiness, noise, and feel.  They're all great keyboards though

I also have two unicomps from 2007.  One I bought from Unicomp, the other I bought from keyboardlover here at geekhack.org.  My original one from Unicomp feels much springier, and it was my full-time keyboard for 2 years.  His sat in a closet most of that time- so it doesn't seem like usage had much of an impact.

[jpc]

Different manufacturers, different age, whether it's had rivet damage

I have three 1391472's, all manufactured in 1987 by IBM, all with one-piece key caps, all bolt-modded. They should be identical, except for wear (in the springs? in the rubber mat?)

Two type nicely, one is too heavy for comfort. I would like to debug that.

I might start with building a force-curve measuring device from Legos. I'll spend some time on it this week and report back if anything comes of it.

[jpc]

Figured it out. There were mangled studs separating the backplate and barrel plate, so the hammers were further from the keycaps than God intended. This lowers the tactile point and raises the effort to press a key. (ie, your bolt-modded board will feel like a bolt mod candidate whose backplate has separated due to lost rivets.)

You can use a rip-o-meter (a stack of 5g nickels) to measure how much force a key will support before it begins to move downward. In a healthy model M, it takes nine or ten nickels to start the key moving, because the spring is compressed to ~45g at rest.

If there's a gap between barrel plate and backplate, the spring is less compressed at rest. My guess is that fewer than nine nickels will start that key moving.

(This is assuming every M has springs with identical spring constants.)

If this test works, you could detect lost rivets without opening the case.

[DesktopJinx]

Really interesting.

I wonder, though, if your impression of the difference in feel between keyboards is affected by sound. If you wore earplugs to muffle the sound and felt each keyboard blind, would your perception and descriptions change?

[jpc]

I wonder, though, if your impression of the difference in feel between keyboards is affected by sound.

Seconded.

That's why I'm measuring the force needed to start the key moving. It quantifies this. Measurements are reliable. My brain isn't -- it has a mind of its own.

Clearly the next step is to get some earplugs and a helper and do some A/B/X testing, audiophile style!

(The step after that is to publish a magazine that advertises keyboards that cost 4- and 5-figures USD, with phony reviews full of made-up phrases that mean nothing. Any resemblance to this is purely coincidental and unintentional.)

[DesktopJinx]

And the best keyboards provide a subtle shading to the words you type that requires a properly-calibrated digitally-signalled reference display and a direct multimode fiber network connection to fully appreciate.

[jpc]

And the best keyboards provide a subtle shading to the words you type that requires a properly-calibrated digitally-signalled reference display and a direct multimode fiber network connection to fully appreciate.

Heh heh....

You touch on the reason keyboards are unlike audio hi-fi stuff.

Keyboards are tools for creating, not consuming.

[keyb_gr]

Keyboards are tools for creating, not consuming.

So are electric guitars. I do think people are fussy about guitar amps.

The difference, of course, is that computer keyboards heavily quantize input. KeyDown and KeyUp for a pre-defined set of keys is all they know. Once a keystroke has been registered, it is usually transferred to the host computer without harm, much like you'd expect no significant further degradation once the signal has left the guitar amp output.

As fas as Stereophile reviews go, I usually skip straight to the measurements section. That'll tell me something at least; actually John Atkinson usually does a pretty good job. I don't see much of a future for subjectivism in audio, certainly not as widespread as now. Its proponents and main audience tend to be gentlemen in their 50s and up.

[DesktopJinx]

I don't see much of a future for subjectivism in audio, certainly not as widespread as now. Its proponents and main audience tend to be gentlemen in their 50s and up.

Perhaps. But I bet "gentlemen in their 50s and up" describes the main demographic of almost every hobby that requires some financial means, particularly those that value obscure knowledge.

In another ten years, it will describe the buckling-spring crowd.

Then again, we may very well be exiting the age of hobbies built upon physical things. After all, a bunch of old guys can still manage to clot together and keep old tube amps and old Porsches going, but how many people are there today who are keeping IBM PCs going? And twenty years hence will anyone be proudly operating their original iPhone? It's just an inert lump without the network, which will have long since stopped talking to it.

But I suppose every generation sees itself as the last of its kind.

[jpc]

I bet "gentlemen in their 50s and up" describes the main demographic of almost every hobby that requires some financial means...

In another ten years, it will describe the buckling-spring crowd.

Then again, we may very well be exiting the age of hobbies built upon physical things

You got me wondering, in what year prices on SSKs, M15s and such will peak, before the keyboards start to outlast the people who love them and irreversible price declines set in.

Dude we just invented the Peak IBM theory. Like woah.

Bonus questions: what year will the last mass-produced buckling spring board be assembled? And, what will be the highest price ever paid for a buckling spring board? Let's start a pool

[DONDON]

I bought a lot of six Model Ms in 2005. I broke a spring on one (use it for parts now), gave away two, and have 3 left. I've touched a few more than I've owned and I can tell you that they all do feel a bit different. The biggest factor that I can figure is in the stiffness of buckling springs that have been pressed a hundred thousand times and those that haven't. The keypad has gone through the same temp., humidity and storage yet the action is noticeably different.  Outside of that they're still all a bit different

Personally, I really enjoy the worn in ones. To me the action is smoother but when the spring buckles it's crisp like a brand new keyboard. Like a worn in mitt that is still well padded.

Even with the other keyboards I've gotten my fingers on these still my favorite switches to use. I just wish they weren't 2KRO and that they had a meta key that I could use with macros.

:rant:I'd like to note my distaste for the Unicomp switches. I'm annoyed that they are the only ones making these buckling spring keyboards and they feel so mushy to me. It's fine that someone is at least using the tech but I wish it'd be licensed to other companies too. I feel someone could make a higher quality product with it:rant:


And yes, since 2005 I think that the popularity of Model M has increased quite a bit. A strange thing to form a sub-culture about, but ranting about rotting grapes can seem just as strange if you look at it in a certain way :playball:

[CodeChef]

I only read the first post but I connected immediately. I've always heard the crispness and precision of the Model M touted. I just want to say my Model M is downright gristly. This ain't no delicate, light-touch, crisp-clickin', exponential-force-curvin' keyboard. This is a MAN'S keyboard with keys for MEN. I don't know if its history had something to do with this feel (it was used in a public school for at least 10-12 years) but this ain't the average Model M and I'm fine with that (I still really want to try out some Blues )

[jpc]

Swapping springs and hammers between two bolt-modded boards swaps their whole personality.

After you rule out gross mechanical issues like rivet-leprosy or sticky goo under the keys, the biggest determinant of the Model M's feel is the springs and hammers.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Perhaps. But I bet "gentlemen in their 50s and up" describes the main demographic of almost every hobby that requires some financial means, particularly those that value obscure knowledge.

In another ten years, it will describe the buckling-spring crowd.

Financial aside, but this is already somewhat the case. In the computer crowd, being 30 is equivalent to being 50 elsewhere and if you grew up inputting your commands from a command line, you're different from the children of GUI ("what's a 486?").

[waffleboi9]

I'm 26, was probably around 21 when tried my first Model M (though I didn't know what it was at the time, it was at an office). I thought it was extremely difficult to use and clunky at first, and then started to enjoy and really get into it. Since that job ended, I've searched high and low for keyboards with the same stiff springiness and ping of my first. I lucked out when I came across a sort of computer graveyard at my college and rescued a couple Model M's among other keyboards, but none have completely satisfied me.

I've been chasing that dragon ever since.

[Sam]

Swapping springs and hammers between two bolt-modded boards swaps their whole personality.

After you rule out gross mechanical issues like rivet-leprosy or sticky goo under the keys, the biggest determinant of the Model M's feel is the springs and hammers.

Just wondering, do different hammers really make a difference, or is it just/mainly the springs?

[jpc]

Just wondering, do different hammers really make a difference, or is it just/mainly the springs?

Don't know.

Because, if a spring and hammer get separated, I can't ever seat them together quite as perfectly as they were at the factory. Bad seating makes for odd key feel. So I always leave springs and hammers together.

[Sam]

Well, from my Boscom spring swapping experiments I still maintain that springs/hammers have not changed through the Model M ages, from IBM to Lexmark to Unicomp.

Show Image

But I think a lot of factors could affect the springs.  Age, use, debris/deposits on the coils, etc.  If the hammers are identical, I don't see that age / use would affect them much unless they are undergoing some sort of chemical change/deterioration.  Perhaps if they were used very heavily they're suffering from getting worn out?  Or what's this about the wrong seating making them feel odd?  Is it possible that their original seating is being changed over time due to use, etc?  Would reseating the springs properly bring the keys back to their original feel?  And is it possible that keyboards in their original state had some differences in how the springs were seated and thus a slightly different feel even when new?