Author Topic: A non-staggered key layout  (Read 7186 times)

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Offline timw4mail

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A non-staggered key layout
« on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 23:23:56 »
I can't decide if I like the one-key stagger of the bottom row or not, but here's the idea:
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php

Comments?
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Offline joniho

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 23:50:42 »
Loving the compact layout. I think that the bottom row should be left a key, just because of habit and muscle memory.

On the F-key rows, how about three rows of 4? I find that's a bit more natural when reading with the left hand.

Offline AndrewZorn

  • Posts: 1086
A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 00:47:43 »
take top layout and

1
break the f keys into 2 sets of 6 (left and right) so you can actually find stuff
make sysrq and pause vertical
take out break in numpad

2
use traditional fkeys
move home/end set to the right
move numpad down
get rid of arrows and use num lock
which was also added at some point
bonus points if the 5 is down instead of 2 once num lock is enabled

Offline Rajagra

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 07:26:25 »
Americans seem to be addicted to easy to reach left shift keys like it was crack cocaine.
But I think even they would take issue with moving ZXC... to the right like that.

I'm getting more and more obsessed by symmetry. Having the right shift two keys further from home than the left one would drive me crazy.

Offline timw4mail

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 08:34:02 »
I decided to try to move the bottom row left a key, and created another blank key from the extra room.

Quote from: joniho;119161
Loving the compact layout. I think that the bottom row should be left a key, just because of habit and muscle memory.

On the F-key rows, how about three rows of 4? I find that's a bit more natural when reading with the left hand.

That bugs me aesthetically, for some reason. I tried doing that at first, but found the keyboard getting too square.



Quote from: AndrewZorn;119168
take top layout and

1
break the f keys into 2 sets of 6 (left and right) so you can actually find stuff
make sysrq and pause vertical
take out break in numpad

2
use traditional fkeys
move home/end set to the right
move numpad down
get rid of arrows and use num lock
which was also added at some point
bonus points if the 5 is down instead of 2 once num lock is enabled

The break in the numpad doesn't really exist...

On the full layout...I haven't removed or changed locations of any of the Fkeys, modifiers, etc. The lock keys are blank, so you can make them lock keys if you want. You even get 5 extra blank keys.

Quote from: Rajagra;119205
Americans seem to be addicted to easy to reach left shift keys like it was crack cocaine.
But I think even they would take issue with moving ZXC... to the right like that.

I'm getting more and more obsessed by symmetry. Having the right shift two keys further from home than the left one would drive me crazy.
I'm sorry that the ISO layout removes your easy to reach shift key.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
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Offline JBert

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 13:48:53 »
Interesting to see a non-staggered key layout for a change. I like the way the shift keys are now symmetrical.


I do have to address the elephant in the room though: how does this improve the key layout with regards to posture and finger travel? Won't you have the habit to force your wrists together as to line up your fingers with the keys? Can you rest your thumbs beneath the spacebar without keeping them crossed?


Granted, the TypeMatrix is also non-staggered, but it does force the hands apart by inserting editing keys in the middle of the typing area.
Still, I'd think a non-staggered layout like the one presented here won't work due to the above, especially within the constraints of a compact keyboard. Either you will have to stagger the keys in symmetrical directions like the μTRON keyboard, split it up into two keyboard units or even do both to make it exactly like the μTRON. Otherwise I wouldn't see the point of even thinking to move keys around...

Personally, I've been thinking about a something like a physically split Maltron J-type keyboard, although I would change quite some things with regard to modifier and movement keys.

Anyway, you did put effort in it so don't let me stop me if you think this layout really fits you.

Off topic: that layout page is nice!
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Offline Rajagra

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 14:26:42 »
Quote from: JBert;119394
Won't you have the habit to force your wrists together as to line up your fingers with the keys?

I think that's a red herring. Whether the keys are staggered or not doesn't have any effect on wrist position when you think about it. You rest your fingers on the home row. That defines your hand positioning, and your fingers handle the necessary corrections.

Staggered keys are good for the right hand and very bad for the left hand - at least if you accept conventional wisdom on which fingers to use where. Overall I'm convinced staggered keys are 'a bad thing'.

The QWER row is only set 1/4 key width to the left of the ASDF row. I wish manufacturers would at least have the courage to line those 2 rows up as part of a gradual process of weaning the population off of staggered layouts.

Edit> Also the number row is 1/4 key to the right of the home row - still an easy change to adjust to even though the movement is bigger relative to the QWERTY row (1/2 key width.)
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 14:31:19 by Rajagra »

Offline AndrewZorn

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 14:57:18 »
the ergonomic people tend to agree the staggered rows is like QWERTY, merely a surviving relic from the old days.  too bad it's not easy to change.

and 'they' DID try it.  i think it was the dell netbook.  everyone went nuts and said it was stupid dell doing their stupid stuff.

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 15:17:52 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;119402
'they' DID try it.  i think it was the dell netbook.  everyone went nuts and said it was stupid dell doing their stupid stuff.


You mean the Mini 9?
I like what they did to the letter keys. Shame they had to do some other freaky stuff to pack everything in. (The number keys are small and go out of sync with the letter keys, LOL.)


Offline JBert

  • Posts: 764
A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 16:35:45 »
Quote from: Rajagra;119398
I think that's a red herring. Whether the keys are staggered or not doesn't have any effect on wrist position when you think about it. You rest your fingers on the home row. That defines your hand positioning, and your fingers handle the necessary corrections.
Well, I'm not going to say you can't start with your wrists in the right position.
However, I would think your fingers have an easier time "rolling up" or moving left-right than to do both at the same time.
When you keep your wrists in a natural position on this keyboard, your fingers are at an angle relative to the keyboard itself. So when they have to move on a matrix keyboard, they will have to move diagonally.
Somehow, I can't shake the feeling that this keyboard makes you take a bad posture if you aren't paying attention.

Of course, when you do relearn to type, you can learn to compensate for all ofthis. Still, I think that a keyboard which adapts to your habit is a better alternative, so IMO a non-staggered key layout might make more sense on a split keyboard.

Quote from: Rajagra;119398
Staggered keys are good for the right hand and very bad for the left hand - at least if you accept conventional wisdom on which fingers to use where. Overall I'm convinced staggered keys are 'a bad thing'.

The QWER row is only set 1/4 key width to the left of the ASDF row. I wish manufacturers would at least have the courage to line those 2 rows up as part of a gradual process of weaning the population off of staggered layouts.

Edit> Also the number row is 1/4 key to the right of the home row - still an easy change to adjust to even though the movement is bigger relative to the QWERTY row (1/2 key width.)
This is the "legacy" layout you are talking about, and very so, it is indeed a bad layout for your left hand and an annoying one for your right due to non-uniform shifting.

Still, I wouldn't say staggering is bad. If you'd change your keyboard so the staggering is symmetrical and uniform (e.g. 1/3 key), you could have a nice keyboard layout which works out OK for both hands. It would seriously mess up your muscle memory though as can be seen in webwit's comments on the μTRON (an interesting keyboard nonetheless).

Gradually shifting the rows by 1/4 a key every 5 years would be interesting. I think I read about that before, but I can't remember where.

I guess I'll have to build one or buy a matrix keyboard to make a final conclusion on this. Still, my common sense would tell me it is about as unnatural as the legacy layout, were it not that some matrix models do try to keep your hands away from each other by inserting more keys in the middle.
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Offline JBert

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 16:37:34 »
Quote from: Rajagra;119404
You mean the Mini 9?
I like what they did to the letter keys. Shame they had to do some other freaky stuff to pack everything in. (The number keys are small and go out of sync with the letter keys, LOL.)

http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/36304.jpg
Close, but no cigar. :-)
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Offline timw4mail

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 16:44:41 »
Messing with the layout in any way is somewhat problematic due to the gravity of habit. Before I did these sets of layouts, I was thinking of how it might be better to have each finger's column staggered to the relative length of each finger, like a flat Maltron keyboard, but then realized that it's very difficult to design a good layout like that because of non-standard typing styles, as well as the index finger sets of rows.

This is the unfortunate thing about everything being mass-produced: It's very difficult to make things according to individual taste.
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Offline bpiphany

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 29 November 2010, 10:54:14 »
I really like this idea. I think I will have to borrow some cherry switches off from some poor board and build something myself. It's a bad habit of mine to never be satisfied with what is available... Which on the other hand means I'm actually pretty skilled at building stuff.

The staggering of the keys have always bugged me. Already at having to use the WASD keys for arrowing around... Not to mention embedded numpads. Embedding those and the F-keys would require Fn-buttons though. Probably above my electronics skills to implement at the moment. I would probably do a semi compact board with shrinking potential =)

Offline Lanx

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 29 November 2010, 12:24:56 »
Quote from: PrinsValium;253829
I really like this idea. I think I will have to borrow some cherry switches off from some poor board and build something myself. It's a bad habit of mine to never be satisfied with what is available... Which on the other hand means I'm actually pretty skilled at building stuff.

you can see some poor sap trying to do this
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439

Offline cbf123

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Either split it or angle it.
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:35:35 »
I hate having bent wrists, so I'd either split it entirely apart, add separation in the middle (either blank like the Kinesis or with a central numberpad like the Maltron), or angle it (like the "TrulyErgonomic").
« Last Edit: Mon, 29 November 2010, 14:40:59 by cbf123 »
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Offline bpiphany

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 29 November 2010, 15:09:21 »
I think I have ordered a bag of loose cherry switches, I really shouldn't stay up this late... =D

Good night.

Offline bpiphany

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 01 December 2010, 07:35:08 »
Thought I would be getting brown switches but only a couple of minutes ago I got a small box of 75 clear ones and 20 blue ones =) Well I thought the blue ones would be blue but not the clear ones clear...

Doesn't really matter I guess other than that now I won't get to feel a brown one. I have a Filco with blue ones on the way already.

I've selected a trash rubber dome board to donate a controller. Now I'll just have to decode the PCP (printed circuit plastic), I'll report back on any progress of this project...

Edit: By the way, does anyone know what thickness the plate should be for the plate mounted mx's?
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 December 2010, 08:15:08 by PrinsValium »

Offline Soarer

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 01 December 2010, 09:05:55 »
Quote from: PrinsValium;254844
Edit: By the way, does anyone know what thickness the plate should be for the plate mounted mx's?


0.06 inches / 1.5 mm

Offline nraymond

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 02 December 2010, 15:08:34 »
The DataDesk SmartBoard is non-staggered, but also split... speaking from experience, it took a bit of getting used to, but I think non-staggered (at least for a split keyboard design) was a good design choice.  I also appreciated the SmartBoard's use of trapezoidal key caps that increased in surface area as a function of the distance traveled by each finger.

I'm less convinced that non-staggered key rows make sense in a non-split scenario.

Offline Findecanor

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 02 December 2010, 18:01:41 »
PrinceValium: How are you going to cut the holes in the plate? Do you have access to industrial equipment?
It would be quite a chore to cut by hand .. believe me, I have cut quite a few things by hand in 1.5 mm aluminium. Steel would be impossible.
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Offline bpiphany

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 03 December 2010, 06:44:23 »
I'm definately not going for steel with the tools I have available.. I was thinking plastic but 1.5 mm probably won't hold up. Thicker might work, I think the keys would stay in unless pulled upon. If I end up really liking it I guess it's not impossible to get something cut by laser or water jet. That's a future problem though.

Offline Lanx

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 04 December 2010, 22:45:43 »
i just tested drilling in holes for a acrylic pcb.
i ended up cracking the acrylic in a few places, just too much downward force with my drill.

Offline bpiphany

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 07:32:16 »
Some progress at least... =D I routed the rows on a router table against the fence. A 14 mm router bit probably would have helped but some tinkering got it done pretty well. Then I sawed the colums on a miter saw.


Probably would have saved me enough soldering time to make it worthwhile to have designed and payed for a pcb in the first place... I decoded a hp rubberdome controller. First I tried to follow the lines around with my finger, then a pencil, then I figured out they probably are conductive (doh) and took out the multimeter =) Not exactly straight rows or columns...

It turned out to be harder than I thought to solder the wires to the controller though. So I'll have to wait for the Teensys I ordered before I get this thing up and running for real.

What's the cheapest/best place to get custom pcbs? Is http://www.pad2pad.com/ of the same company as http://www.emachineshop.com/ ? They refer to emackineshops CAD software. Might combine an order of a pcb and  a mounting plate in that case...

Offline 7bit

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A non-staggered key layout
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 12:03:15 »
Quote from: Lanx;257316
i just tested drilling in holes for a acrylic pcb.
i ended up cracking the acrylic in a few places, just too much downward force with my drill.


Put the PCB between 2 metal-plates and wrench them together. Now drill the holes.
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