Author Topic: CP/M opinions  (Read 4894 times)

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woody

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CP/M opinions
« on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 12:52:39 »
If somebody has used this relic and feels like sharing opinions, please do so. It would be interesting to me, at least. Thanks.

Offline Half-Saint

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« Reply #1 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 13:49:42 »
I used it on Commodore C-128 but since I was just a teen back then, I saw it as some sorts of weird MS-DOS :)
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Offline 7bit

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« Reply #2 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 13:54:29 »
Quote from: woody;281152
If somebody has used this relic and feels like sharing opinions, please do so. It would be interesting to me, at least. Thanks.


Made my first contact with a computer running CP/M. Yellowed apple boxes. Apple was synonymous with cheap unreliable trash in these days.

I learned to save every little programming step to disk (floppy for sure), because the system friezed quite often, even when entering text.

These boxes are the reason why I will never get into that Apple hype.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #3 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 14:09:55 »
CP/M on Apple? Never knew there was a port to the 6502...

woody

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« Reply #4 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 14:14:48 »
Quote from: ch_123;281220
CP/M on Apple? Never knew there was a port to the 6502...

It was done by slot-based peripheral board with Z80, most popular being Microsoft SoftCard, but there were many.

Something similar must've happened to the C128, since CP/M was only 8080/Z80 world.

Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #5 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 15:03:07 »
The C128 had a Z80 on board, actually ...

BTW, notice the C128 (and C64D) keyboard's non-standard key staggering? It is the same between all rows. The top two rows have been shifted 1/4 key to the left in comparison to the C=64. For aesthetic purposes, I suppose ...
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 January 2011, 15:21:59 by Findecanor »
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Offline typo

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« Reply #6 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 15:46:58 »
i used those big old 10" floppy disks lol. i had a whole business running off that back then.

anyone remember the "dream station" that surpassed cp/m? that thing blew me away when it came out!

Offline mr_a500

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« Reply #7 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 15:57:49 »
CP/M is not very fun to use. It's like a crippled old version of MS-DOS (not surprising because MS-DOS is basically a cloned and enhanced version of CP/M.): 8.3 filenames, drive letters, no folders, awkward commands. (for example, you copy files with the command "PIP"... not very obvious, unless you used a PDP-11 in the 1970's)

I tried hard to like CP/M - because that's what my Kaypros run and I really like the look of those computers - but I've never liked MS-DOS and therefore like CP/M even less. If only it was more like AmigaDOS...

Of course, it could be worse. AtariDOS and AppleDOS are crap in comparison.

woody

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« Reply #8 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 17:14:30 »
Quote from: Findecanor;281300
The C128 had a Z80 on board, actually ...

Right, now that I checked the specs. I missed the whole Commodore wave.

woody

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« Reply #9 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 17:27:43 »
Quote from: mr_a500;281343
CP/M is not very fun to use.

I'd use stronger words, but I'm still collecting opinions. :)

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I tried hard to like CP/M - because that's what my Kaypros run and I really like the look of those computers - but I've never liked MS-DOS and therefore like CP/M even less.

Funny. Just for fun I dug into the internals of CP/M, and boy - there is absolutely nothing to be liked (in technical regard). I feel happy to have missed it entirely. Communism has some good sides, you know.

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Of course, it could be worse. AtariDOS and AppleDOS are crap in comparison.

The internal file structure of Apple DOS is better than CP/M. Actually, CP/M is a Kill'dem'all joke.

Offline JohnElliott

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« Reply #10 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 17:29:43 »
I used CP/M 3 on a Spectrum +3 and an Amstrad PCW, before I graduated to DOS. MS-DOS was based on CP/M 2, and there were some features that were new in 3, which I missed in DOS. There were things called Resident System Extensions, for example, which were similar to DOS TSRs, but you could attach them to programs rather than having to run them by hand. And they had a standard header, so the CP/M loader would deal with loading them and unloading them and hooking and unhooking the system call entry point.

3 also had a better device reassignment system; there were five logical devices (console output, console input, aux output, aux input, printer) and up to thirteen physical (eg: screen, keyboard, serial port, parallel port). And you could map each logical device to any combination of physical devices; so, for example, you could use DEVICE LST:=SIO if you had a serial printer, to send printer output from all programs to the serial port. Or DEVICE CONIN:=CRT,SIO to accept input from the normal keyboard and a serial keyboard at the same time.

There was also an option to list all files except those matching a pattern -- eg, DIR [EXCLUDE] *.COM -- which I missed on DOS.

That's not to say it didn't have its limitations, of course -- the lack of subdirectories meant that on a hard drive I was constantly running out of directory entries before the drive was anything like full. And the programs supplied with it didn't actually support all the features of the underlying system, so even though it supported exact file sizes, PIP and TYPE and DUMP and so on would still round up to the nearest 128 bytes.
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 January 2011, 17:32:31 by JohnElliott »

woody

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« Reply #11 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 17:43:06 »
That's some good info, JohnElliott.

Quote from: JohnElliott;281402
I used CP/M 3 on a Spectrum +3 and an Amstrad PCW

I have researched the guts on version 2 only. I think it's the one which was most widespread.

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MS-DOS was based on CP/M 2, and there were some features that were new in 3, which I missed in DOS. There were things called Resident System Extensions, for example, which were similar to DOS TSRs, but you could attach them to programs rather than having to run them by hand. And they had a standard header, so the CP/M loader would deal with loading them and unloading them and hooking and unhooking the system call entry point.

Yup, sounds similar to TSRs, in a way. Although CP/M v2 doesn't have any notion of memory management, so they must've introduced something at least rudimentary in v3.

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3 also had a better device reassignment system ...

v2's redirection seems to be based wholly on BIOS' mercy.

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That's not to say it didn't have its limitations, of course -- the lack of subdirectories meant that on a hard drive I was constantly running out of directory entries before the drive was anything like full.

CP/M has the funniest file system so far, hands down. You're basically limited to:
number_of_blocks = directory_entries * 8

I gotta love what they smoked back then.

Offline JohnElliott

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« Reply #12 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 18:49:45 »
Quote from: woody;281415
CP/M has the funniest file system so far, hands down.


I take it you haven't seen DFS on the BBC micro, then?

Offline Sam

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« Reply #13 on: Wed, 19 January 2011, 19:40:28 »
I used CP/M on various old S-100 bus machines: IMSAI 8080, Sol-20, a homebrew system.  I loved it at the time...CP/M along with a floppy drive was great compared to keying in programs via the front panel switches everytime.

I used Atari DOS as well, which wasn't worth anything and had to write my own DOS and BIOS due to Atari's being too much of a memory hog and the application I wrote needed every byte it could get.

Apple DOS, I used, but don't remember much other than I recall having numerous corrupted disks from time-to-time.

Commodore DOS also didn't have any memorable features that I recall.

I used MS-DOS/PC-DOS extensively for many years.  I even resisted using Windows up through and including Windows 3.1 and continued using DOS.  I hated the short filename/extensions, but it did the job for what I needed.  I finally shelved it in favor of Windows 95 when that came out, but still have a few applications that occasionally need to be run on a DOS machine.

I dabbled with the Amiga and Amiga DOS for maybe six months.  The computer, DOS, etc all seemed to be quite nice, but IBM PCs were where the money was to be made, so after completing one project I sadly never had a chance to touch an Amiga again.  During the same time I also did some development for the Atari ST, but again nothing really memorable about that machine nor it's DOS.

Perhaps not well-known is that IBM sold 3 different operating systems for their original PC: PC-DOS, CP/M-86, and p-System.  CP/M-86 was a version of CP/M designed for the 8088/8086, but being it was priced way over the cost of PC-DOS, it never took off.  P-System was a horrible DOS.  The thing was incredibly slow.  I should know being one of the first commercial applications I designed was written for p-System, but after convincing the company trying to market it that p-System was hopeless, they relented and allowed me to modify it to run under PC-DOS.  Later on DR-DOS from Digital Research was able to capture a small portion of the DOS market with it's PC/MS-DOS knockoff.

CP/M, while certainly not the greatest DOS still has the greatest sentimental significance for me, being it was the first DOS for personal computers that I used.  One of these days I'll have to dig out some of my old S-100 machines and boot up CP/M for sake of nostalgia.

woody

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« Reply #14 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 02:51:23 »
Quote from: JohnElliott;281455
I take it you haven't seen DFS on the BBC micro, then?

No, never reached me. What are the highlights?

woody

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« Reply #15 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 03:16:03 »
Quote from: Sam;281472
I used CP/M on various old S-100 bus machines: IMSAI 8080, Sol-20, a homebrew system.  I loved it at the time...CP/M along with a floppy drive was great compared to keying in programs via the front panel switches everytime.

I can understand that. It's better than punched media and magnetic tapes, and best of all - you can have one at your home.

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Apple DOS, I used, but don't remember much other than I recall having numerous corrupted disks from time-to-time.

I didn't had that for almost 10 years, so there must've been something specific to your case. Maybe a certain buggy program or a fault at the disk controller/floppy drive.

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I used MS-DOS/PC-DOS extensively for many years.

I did as well, can't say it was that enjoyable. Just a simple (read that as negative) file system with some primitive memory management and I/O handling. On the other hand, it was enough as a tool for me, so I skipped the whole Windows realm.

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P-System was a horrible DOS.  The thing was incredibly slow.

Haven't heard of it. Any relation to the UCSD p-system?

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CP/M, while certainly not the greatest DOS still has the greatest sentimental significance for me, being it was the first DOS for personal computers that I used.  One of these days I'll have to dig out some of my old S-100 machines and boot up CP/M for sake of nostalgia.

I know that feeling. Speaking about the technical merits of CP/M though, I'm still amused how unprofessional it is. The nature always prefers average things to perfect, so it's no wonder the human market follows the pattern.

Offline Sam

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« Reply #16 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 04:03:30 »
Quote from: woody;281623
I didn't had that for almost 10 years, so there must've been something specific to your case. Maybe a certain buggy program or a fault at the disk controller/floppy drive.

Note sure what the deal was.  The problem occurred on numerous different Apple II computers, and various users.  I never experienced the problem myself, it was only users who came to me and complained that their data was corrupted or their diskettes unreadable.  Maybe they were abusing their diskettes or something.  I used an Apple III for my development system and never had a problem with it.  Later on I got an Apple IIc for testing, and didn't have a problem with it either, but never put many hours on it.  I recall PC-DOS had a backup FAT just for increasing reliability in case the primary FAT became corrupted.  Don't know if Apple DOS had something similar or not, but if they didn't that could have been the culprit.

Quote from: woody;281623
Haven't heard of it. Any relation to the UCSD p-system?

Yep, that's what it was.  Someone ported it to the PC and IBM marketed it.  A horrible idea in my opinion being the p-code was designed to work across multiple platforms.  The result as best as I remember is that it basically ran as an interpreter, meaning everything was extremely slow and basically totally unusable.  The source code was written in Pascal and that was compiled down to only the p-code level.  The difference between the same software running p-system and PC-DOS was night and day.  Back in those days the PC ran at 4.77 MHz and it was necessary for software bottlenecks to be reduced by rewriting those portions in optimized assembler, which there was no provision for in p-system.

Quote from: woody;281623
I know that feeling. Speaking about the technical merits of CP/M though, I'm still amused how unprofessional it is. The nature always prefers average things to perfect, so it's no wonder the human market follows the pattern.

Well remember, when personal computers first came out, they had a ridiculously small amount of RAM memory.  I recall some of the first S-100 bus systems having only 1 - 4K RAM!  While the core/bootloader of CP/M would have been stored in ROM, ROM also was expensive in those days.  So they had to offload some of the DOS onto the diskette in the form of command files.  So by that very nature the DOS had to have a very minuscule footprint, especially with respect to RAM memory usage, which made it very limited.  As RAM sizes increased and ROM costs decreased, the DOS footprint and resulting functionality could be increased, but the basic CP/M was designed back in the beginning so major changes (ie. completely rewriting it with a totally new spec) would have likely resulted in compatibility issues.  Not to mention the number of personal computers sold was extremely small in those days and software companies were small-time operations.  You cannot compare CP/M with mini or mainframe OS's of the same period.

In looking back now, yeah, it's a real piece of junk.  Even at the time, I'm sure many users cursed often at CP/M when they overwrote their diskettes with the wrong data or had any other number of things go wrong.  But patience and paying attention to details has always been at or near the top of the list of desirable characteristics of computer engineers, and even more so back in the early days.  It wasn't just CP/M that was lacking in refinement, it was just about everything in what back then was mostly a hobbyist industry.  If you were a part of those computers back in those days, remember the hardware - how many times did you see a commercial product in it's first release that didn't have at least one jumper wire installed?  I'm sure there were some, but it seemed much more common than not to see jumper wires, even on subsequent releases.

woody

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« Reply #17 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 05:10:46 »
Quote from: Sam;281632
Maybe they were abusing their diskettes or something.

Probably. There is some minimal user hygiene required, just like anything else.

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I recall PC-DOS had a backup FAT just for increasing reliability in case the primary FAT became corrupted.  Don't know if Apple DOS had something similar or not, but if they didn't that could have been the culprit.

FAT could have even more than two images, but I guess no one looked seriously at that, even Microsoft. Apple DOS has a single image with bitmap of usage only (0/1), but there are tools which could recover a diskette, since the real links are in sectors that belong to files. In other words, the real allocation table information is scattered, so less prone to damage.

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Someone ported it to the PC and IBM marketed it.  A horrible idea in my opinion being the p-code was designed to work across multiple platforms.

p-system is an academic exercise (maybe good to a certain extent, but far from awesome), and seeking commercial value in that on the puny PC/XT has been doomed. Speaking of p-system, does "byte sex" ring a bell? :)

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Well remember, when personal computers first came out, they had a ridiculously small amount of RAM memory.

Well aware of that, even if I jumped on the train at the 48K stage. My profession has been mostly connected to severely constrained systems, though.

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So they had to offload some of the DOS onto the diskette in the form of command files.

This is in the spirit of Unix and a good decision (but badly executed).

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the basic CP/M was designed back in the beginning so major changes (ie. completely rewriting it with a totally new spec) would have likely resulted in compatibility issues.

Agree. I have considered all the points of the limited early hardware and the compatibility requirement. Still, it looks like a hobby work by someone who had average skills and not much incline to put effort into design. Then it shipped, and the slapping of extra crud began.

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You cannot compare CP/M with mini or mainframe OS's of the same period.

No, I don't. I researched CP/M internals exactly with the capabilities that the hardware has had in mind. Definitely not impressed, to say the least.

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In looking back now, yeah, it's a real piece of junk.

Good, that just about matches my personal opinion. I have tried really hard to pinpoint some good ideas in CP/M, and all I could come up with is the abstraction of BIOS, BDOS and CCP. The rest is horrible, impractical and illogical.

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If you were a part of those computers back in those days, remember the hardware - how many times did you see a commercial product in it's first release that didn't have at least one jumper wire installed?  I'm sure there were some, but it seemed much more common than not to see jumper wires, even on subsequent releases.

I come from different side of the Iron Curtain, so time and other properties of the continuum differ a bit. ;-)

Offline Sam

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« Reply #18 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 06:45:56 »
Quote from: woody;281641
FAT could have even more than two images, but I guess no one looked seriously at that, even Microsoft. Apple DOS has a single image with bitmap of usage only (0/1), but there are tools which could recover a diskette, since the real links are in sectors that belong to files. In other words, the real allocation table information is scattered, so less prone to damage.


The Apple II work I did had the lowest priority of all my jobs at the time, and there may very well have been some tools for doing disk recovery, but I don't recall any.  The majority of my work on the Apple II was very early on, so any tools were probably not as readily available during that time frame, and I didn't have the time nor inclination to try to teach users how to recover disks.  I simply told them to always make two copies of everything, which they did and after that they'd come to me and show me a bad disk, but said their other disk was fine, so I simply told them to make a fresh copy of the good disk and continue on.

Quote from: woody;281641
p-system is an academic exercise (maybe good to a certain extent, but far from awesome), and seeking commercial value in that on the puny PC/XT has been doomed. Speaking of p-system, does "byte sex" ring a bell? :)


Nope, doesn't ring a bell, but I tried my best to learn as little as possible about p-system.  I actually inherited the project from someone who started it but had no formal education in writing software.  He somehow thought that p-system was the way to go because Pascal looked easier to learn than the alternatives.  He realized very quickly that he was in serious trouble and called me in to finish (99% of the work) the project.  The moment I convinced him to port the application to PC-DOS, I never took another look at p-system again.

Quote from: woody;281641
Well aware of that, even if I jumped on the train at the 48K stage. My profession has been mostly connected to severely constrained systems, though.


Talking about severely constrained systems, ever try to program one of the early PIC (Microchip) devices?  Now those were quite a challenge, trying to write some useful code when the ROM capacity is only enough for a couple hundred instructions and you have a whopping 16 bytes of RAM.  I loved those days, being trying to fit as much functionality into the smallest (cheapest) unit possible was my specialty.  I don't think I was ever in as much demand as in those days.  The head honchos simply loved it when I told them how much they could save by using a PIC instead of a full-blown microprocessor, or telling them how they could add unheard of functionality to their existing non-digital products for pennies in additional manufacturing cost.

Quote from: woody;281641
Agree. I have considered all the points of the limited early hardware and the compatibility requirement. Still, it looks like a hobby work by someone who had average skills and not much incline to put effort into design. Then it shipped, and the slapping of extra crud began.

...

Good, that just about matches my personal opinion. I have tried really hard to pinpoint some good ideas in CP/M, and all I could come up with is the abstraction of BIOS, BDOS and CCP. The rest is horrible, impractical and illogical.

...

I come from different side of the Iron Curtain, so time and other properties of the continuum differ a bit. ;-)


Well, I think we're pretty much in agreement, it's just that I probably saw a lot more about what the industry was all about in it's early stages, having lived through it in the US where most of it was happening at the time.

First of all, the industry was not at all driven by businesses.  Businesses who used those early computers were few and far between and quite adventurous.  There was no big market for games initially, with the only games being just something extra to occupy one's time when taking a break.  The industry was really driven by the hobbyists in the early stages.  And you're exactly right about CP/M.  It was almost certainly written by and for hobbyists.  I doubt it was ever conceived as being a successful commercial product.  Now, in my opinion, there are two types of people who make such products.  There's the perfectionist, who's never happy until the product is perfect, and then there's the person who's challenged by trying to make something, but once they reach a certain state and can see that they've basically accomplished what they set out to do, they stop and move onto something else.  I'm guessing CP/M was written by the latter, rather then the former.

With the former, you'll either never get a product to market, or by the time it's ready it'll be too late and someone else beat you to it.  With the latter, you end up with some pretty horrible products, so the key is to have someone managing the development who can balance the two.  Get something out to market in a reasonable time, but not so quickly that it's not well designed or not well tested.  With most all of the early companies though, they were more like one or two-man shows, and they just did things their own way without any management to speak of.

Back in the early days, consumers didn't give that much thought to how well-designed or complete a software product was.  People were desperate for anything.  Even by the time the IBM PC was released, you could walk into a Computerland store and find commercial software products that were duped on the software developer's own PC, a typed (or dot-matrix printed) label slapped on it.  A dot-matrix printed information sheet, and the whole thing stuffed into a zip-lock plastic bag and put on the shelf.  Despite the complete lack of professionalism the stuff still sold like hotcakes, because people wanted software and there wasn't any competition.

These days a company trying to do anything remotely like that would be laughed at and never get even close to getting their product into the stores.  Having seen this first-hand, I can realize exactly how CP/M, even though not being a well-designed product, became so universally accepted.  There were probably many hobbyists who could have created a better DOS that would have run circles around CP/M.  Or even PC-DOS/MS-DOS.  At the time I even considered myself trying to rewrite and sell a new DOS.  But I'm sure just like me, the others who could have done a better job didn't have the business skills/connections to market it.  There was no internet back then to sell directly to the consumers.  The thought of spending hundreds of hours to write some software, only to not be able to sell it was enough to convince me to spend my time writing software for people who paid me upfront for the projects.

I often look back on those days with some regret.  Knowing what I know now, I think it actually wouldn't have been that hard to have marketed something on my own.  Certainly writing a good, well-designed DOS wouldn't have been that difficult.  Had someone had the courage early on to do that, and to take on Microsoft, the software industry might be a lot different today.  During the CP/M days, I don't think it would have mattered a lot, but by the time IBM introduced their PC, businesses were getting very interested in using PC's, and the market for software to run those machines was about to explode.  I was right there, on the ground floor, directly involved in the PC software industry, but probably like most of others like me, we were so excited about writing software for these new computers, that we overlooked the huge business potential.  It was those who had a good eye on the business end as well as a good technical background who made it big.

Offline JohnElliott

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« Reply #19 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 07:55:31 »
Quote from: woody;281619
No, never reached me. What are the highlights?


A similar fixed-size flat directory (file names are 7 characters), but instead of a block count it just records the first sector and the count of sectors. So you can only extend a file if there's free space after it, and if the free space is fragmented you can only save a file as large as the largest fragment. The ROM included a routine to move all the files to the start of the data area, which you had to run manually.

Unlike Digital Research, Acorn didn't try to expand DFS beyond floppies; the filesystem they used on hard drives and larger floppies was ADFS, which had subdirectories -- though the first few iterations of ADFS still required files to be contiguous.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #20 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 11:15:48 »
Quote from: Sam;281472
P-System was a horrible DOS.  The thing was incredibly slow.  I should know being one of the first commercial applications I designed was written for p-System, but after convincing the company trying to market it that p-System was hopeless, they relented and allowed me to modify it to run under PC-DOS.  Later on DR-DOS from Digital Research was able to capture a small portion of the DOS market with it's PC/MS-DOS knockoff.


It was the OS of the Displaywriter too. AFAIK, it was based on Pascal and had a hideous memory management system.

Offline mike

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« Reply #21 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 11:49:26 »
Quote from: woody;281227
It was done by slot-based peripheral board with Z80, most popular being Microsoft SoftCard, but there were many.

Something similar must've happened to the C128, since CP/M was only 8080/Z80 world.


There was CP/M for the 68000, Z8000, and 8086 although none were as popular as the original.

My only experience with CP/M was on a Triumph-Adler single floppy disk machine connected to a B/W TV - not the most pleasant experience!
Keyboards: Unicomp UB40T56 with JP3 removed, Unicomp UB4044A, Filco Tenkeyless Brown (with pink highlights), Access AKE1223231, IBM DisplayWriter, Das Keyboard III, and a few others.

Offline mike

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« Reply #22 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 11:54:30 »
Quote from: JohnElliott;281658

Unlike Digital Research, Acorn didn't try to expand DFS beyond floppies; the filesystem they used on hard drives and larger floppies was ADFS, which had subdirectories -- though the first few iterations of ADFS still required files to be contiguous.


To be fair, it was the system manufacturers that extended CP/M to early hard disks by adding support to the BIOS (loaded off floppy or hard disk rather than embedded in ROM).
Keyboards: Unicomp UB40T56 with JP3 removed, Unicomp UB4044A, Filco Tenkeyless Brown (with pink highlights), Access AKE1223231, IBM DisplayWriter, Das Keyboard III, and a few others.

woody

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« Reply #23 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 11:55:47 »
Quote from: mike;281740
There was CP/M for the 68000, Z8000, and 8086 although none were as popular as the original.

Yes, but they are labelled CP/M-68k, CP/M-86, etc.
My point was that 6502 never had a chance. The only real important CP/M was in the 8080/Z80 domain, thanks to some popular application software.

Offline pfink

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« Reply #24 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 13:21:48 »
Quote from: woody
Haven't heard of it. Any relation to the UCSD p-system?
Quote from: Sam
Yep, that's what it was.  Someone ported it to the PC and IBM marketed it.  A horrible idea in my opinion being the p-code was designed to work across multiple platforms.  The result as best as I remember is that it basically ran as an interpreter, meaning everything was extremely slow and basically totally unusable.  The source code was written in Pascal and that was compiled down to only the p-code level.  The difference between the same software running p-system and PC-DOS was night and day.  Back in those days the PC ran at 4.77 MHz and it was necessary for software bottlenecks to be reduced by rewriting those portions in optimized assembler, which there was no provision for in p-system.


UCSD p-System wasn't a bad idea, it was just badly timed and implemented. It was actually very similar in concept to what Sun did successfully 20 years later with Java. It's two main problems were the personal computers of the time were too underpowered to handle the VM's extra layer of abstraction; and Pascal, while a decent first language for learning programming concepts, is not well suited for writing system software.

Offline mike

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CP/M opinions
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 14:08:55 »
Quote from: woody;281745
Yes, but they are labelled CP/M-68k, CP/M-86, etc.


In fact 8080/8085/z80 CP/M was usually retronamed to CP/M-80. I think DR would have objected to CP/M being labelled as 8080-only, so I'm objecting on their behalf :)

Quote from: woody;281745
My point was that 6502 never had a chance. The only real important CP/M was in the 8080/Z80 domain, thanks to some popular application software.


CP/M-80 never really dominated the market to quite the same extent as DOS. It was very popular in the business computer market, but even there, one of the most popular business applications VisiCalc was never available for CP/M and limited initially on the Apple-II and later other 6502-based machines.

The home computer market was even more fragmented and CP/M had very little presence here (given it effectively required floppy disks - paper tape was never a popular choice in the micro area).
Keyboards: Unicomp UB40T56 with JP3 removed, Unicomp UB4044A, Filco Tenkeyless Brown (with pink highlights), Access AKE1223231, IBM DisplayWriter, Das Keyboard III, and a few others.

woody

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CP/M opinions
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 14:59:31 »
Quote from: JohnElliott;281658
A similar fixed-size flat directory (file names are 7 characters), but instead of a block count it just records the first sector and the count of sectors. So you can only extend a file if there's free space after it, and if the free space is fragmented you can only save a file as large as the largest fragment. The ROM included a routine to move all the files to the start of the data area, which you had to run manually.

The twin brother of UCSD's file system. IIRC, it had the K)runch command to pack the file system.

woody

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CP/M opinions
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 20 January 2011, 15:47:43 »
Quote from: Sam;281650
The majority of my work on the Apple II was very early on, so any tools were probably not as readily available during that time frame

Was this an earlier version of Apple DOS, perhaps 13 sector? I don't know, it may have had some nasty bugs. Or clumsy API gotchas.

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Nope, doesn't ring a bell, but I tried my best to learn as little as possible about p-system.

"Byte sex" in their vocabulary is what we know as endianness. Doesn't have anything to do neither with byte, nor with sex. Casts a shadow on the designers.

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Talking about severely constrained systems, ever try to program one of the early PIC (Microchip) devices?

Sadly, yes. :-) One with 26 bytes of RAM to replace a custom IC, and one with hundred and something bytes of RAM (banked, of course) to accumulate wide spectrum of high-energy particles, along with UI and serial connection with protocol to upload data. First with OTP parts (worked on 2nd burn), second with EPROM. Modern Flash and debug facilities are for the quiche eaters.

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Well, I think we're pretty much in agreement, it's just that I probably saw a lot more about what the industry was all about in it's early stages, having lived through it in the US where most of it was happening at the time.

True that. On our side we were collecting tiny bits of information and working with way old stuff. On the other hand, that stimulates creativity.

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There's the perfectionist, who's never happy until the product is perfect, and then there's the person who's challenged by trying to make something, but once they reach a certain state and can see that they've basically accomplished what they set out to do, they stop and move onto something else.  I'm guessing CP/M was written by the latter, rather then the former.

Totally agree. Some people are just happy when something seems to "work". I believe Gary's wife talked him into turning his originally contract work into commercial product. Still, meh.

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With the former, you'll either never get a product to market, or by the time it's ready it'll be too late and someone else beat you to it.  With the latter, you end up with some pretty horrible products, so the key is to have someone managing the development who can balance the two.

Yes, the golden balance, or how hard-pressed are we to release. I still prefer the risk of having a great product, than releasing utter crap. That is, I try to push into the former direction ... in a practical way. But the perfectionists never make good executives.

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Back in the early days, consumers didn't give that much thought to how well-designed or complete a software product was.

Looking at the current state of, say, cell phone software, I think even now the consumers are too busy following trends and buying crap to notice, as well. But, truly sadly, this is something that was implanted many years ago - "We're gonna fix the issues with our next update".

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People were desperate for anything.  Even by the time the IBM PC was released, you could walk into a Computerland store and find commercial software products that were duped on the software developer's own PC, a typed (or dot-matrix printed) label slapped on it.  A dot-matrix printed information sheet, and the whole thing stuffed into a zip-lock plastic bag and put on the shelf.  Despite the complete lack of professionalism the stuff still sold like hotcakes, because people wanted software and there wasn't any competition.

Must have been of great benefit to those with the right skill at the right time and place. What could be the nowaday closest equivalent .... app sold online for cell phone?
Once a certain market segment, e.g. games, is taken over by the big guns, the small individuals lose the battle and must shift somewhere else.

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Or even PC-DOS/MS-DOS.  At the time I even considered myself trying to rewrite and sell a new DOS.

Partly kidding, but you have lost a golden opportunity. :-)
Compared to you, I didn't had the chance. So I have a great peace of mind.

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I often look back on those days with some regret.  Knowing what I know now, I think it actually wouldn't have been that hard to have marketed something on my own.

Tell me about it. But, as I already said, it was impossible. So I continue to care about the knowledge and don't pay attention to mortal things like money, etc. ;-)

Worst of all, the history shows that technical excellence is not that important at all. Now that's a real bummer and makes inventing the time machine worthless.