Author Topic: Internet Exploder 9 - thoughts?  (Read 7507 times)

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Offline spolia optima

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Internet Exploder 9 - thoughts?
« on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 17:43:54 »
I gotta admit, I like it. It's been my primary browser for over a week now.
 
I've been virulently anti-IE since I was a wee lad. I was one of those guys that went from netscape to opera to firefox to chrome because they were just... better.
 
IE9 does in fact load pages fast (on my netbook). The interface is perfect, totally streamlined, uncluttered, intuitive... just the opposite of every single past iteration of IE. Believe it or not, it takes up LESS screen real estate than Chrome.
 
The security features are outstanding.
 
Cons: I want an address bar that doubles as a search engine, like chrome. I hate having to click on the little magnifying glass. **** that noise. Also, it lacks an integrated sync feature, and I don't feel like digging up my old xmarks account, it should just be there.
 
Anyhow, I'm no techie, but this seems like a solid browser.
I'd like to hear what you guys think. If you haven't given it a test drive for at least a few days, don't bother posting. Haters 'gonna hate.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 April 2011, 17:51:43 by spolia optima »
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Offline spolia optima

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« Reply #1 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 17:49:41 »
Oh, again, aesthetically IE9 is perfect. Minimalist, balanced, not a superfluous button in sight, and the slightly clipped "back" button adds a certain je ne sais quoi.
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Offline spolia optima

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« Reply #2 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 18:03:43 »
On my netbook, the FF4 beta uses a tad less resources than all the other browsers, but that's without add-ons- and FF needs addons to match Chrome's functionality.
 
IE9 does 99% of what Chrome does. And uses less resources. Plus it's faster and prettier.
 
Keep in mind this is all applied to my netbook. On a 10.1" display, visual real estate is precious.
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Offline Parabellum

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« Reply #3 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 18:15:38 »
Yeah, I'll stick to IE 6.

Offline Lpb45

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« Reply #4 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 19:09:10 »
I switched to firefox 4 from Chrome over the weekend, so far im liking it.  Chrome still seems a bit quicker though
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Offline .XL

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« Reply #5 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 19:45:43 »
Quote from: Parabellum;324583
Yeah, I'll stick to IE 6.


Okay, 'Microsoft Windows'

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Offline Fwiffo

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« Reply #6 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 20:28:13 »
Just means there's a new browser I have to waste time testing sites on. Two actually, since it has two different modes of rendering. It would be one thing if the "legacy mode" in IE8 and IE9 actually did have the same rendering bugs as IE6, but it doesn't.

I haven't even tried Firefox 4 yet. It looks like they wasted most of their time with an idiotic new interface instead of significantly improving performance, memory usage, stability or security.
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Offline spolia optima

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« Reply #7 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 22:21:16 »
IMO Firefox is past it's prime. Google and M$ have too many monies and I don't think Mozilla can compete in the long run.
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Offline strum4h

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« Reply #8 on: Tue, 05 April 2011, 06:54:22 »
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Offline audioave10

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« Reply #9 on: Sat, 09 April 2011, 18:44:40 »
I'm still getting used to IE 9 on my Windows 7 PC. So far, it seems quite good.
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Offline J-HAX

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« Reply #10 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 07:20:28 »
Damn you all, use Opera!!!

Does your browser have tab stacking?
Didn't think so.

Think about it,
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Offline vun

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« Reply #11 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 08:41:42 »
Quote from: J-HAX;328447
Damn you all, use Opera!!!

Does your browser have tab stacking?
Didn't think so.

Think about it,
Jack Allison


Faviconize Tab and the new app tabs in FF 4 makes sorting out apps just as easy, and Opera's ad blocking is ridiculously poor compared to AdBlock.
Now, I'm not saying Opera is a bad browser, I switched to Opera a week or two ago because I've always liked it, but there are a lot of things I miss from FF.

People should use whatever browser works for them, unless it's IE because that's just a PITA for web developers. Might be better in IE9 though, but I'd still not recommend IE for anyone.

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #12 on: Mon, 11 April 2011, 12:01:24 »
Having a separate search bar from location bar is preferable behavior.

Separate location bar: nothing is sent until you hit enter
Separate search bar: Search queries are sent as they are typed for search suggestions

Combined bar: Anything typed, sensitive URLs or queries, are sent to a third party as they are typed, letter by letter.

There's a reason Google picked one behavior and everyone else picked another.

I value privacy over convenience, so on my Chrome notebook I disable search suggestions. I'd prefer the search was separate from the location so I didn't have to do that.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #13 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 10:38:10 »
When one is used to Opera everything else look as  stone age or badly copied.
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Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #14 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 10:56:54 »
Let's not get started with the Opera flamewars...

Opera rarely does things first (Yes, they had tabs before Firefox, but Netcaptor was the first). Also, Opera switched to its current design after Firefox's UI team released concept artwork for Firefox 3.7 (which ultimately became Firefox 4).

The Opera devs are nice people, but they live in a world quite different from our own. They're completely apathetic to fixing bugs in quirks mode (when there isn't a standard doctype, usually a sign of non-standard HTML). When every other browser will render something properly in quirks and Opera won't, their response is to use another site. Great if you're a standards monger, but a non-solution for those of us who browse the web realistically.

Opera does some things well.
Chrome/Chromium are great if you want an out of the box browser that's fast.
Opera is good if you want some additional functionality, but don't want to install it.
Firefox is better if you want to spend a little time customizing your browser.

This is all opinion, but based on personal experience. I still do some web development work, so I have all of them installed (even Safari for Windows as well...)

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #15 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 12:05:59 »
Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;329236

Opera rarely does things first


Sped dial, bookmark synchronization, zoom, dynamic mail folders, paste and go, low bandwidth option, mouse gestures, voice functions, quick search menus, skinnable UI, download manager...

There were so many firsts that I really can't remember all, and I'm sure that is an hard task even for the opera guys.

The other browsers anyway are getting better:  they learned to copy faster.

Firefox took just 3 or 4 months to copy the new red opera menu
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Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #16 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 12:11:33 »
Quote from: The Solutor;329286
Firefox took just 3 or 4 months to copy the new red opera menu

I'll address the rest of your points in a moment, but that button? Opera copied from 3.7 mockups. One moment while I find the appropriate mockup link...

Here, the name was changed after the initial publication in June 2009 (hence the redirect from 3.7 -> 4.0).
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 April 2011, 12:15:57 by muchadoaboutnothing »

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #17 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 12:25:26 »
Quote from: The Solutor;329286
Sped dial, bookmark synchronization, zoom, dynamic mail folders, paste and go, low bandwidth option, mouse gestures, voice functions, quick search menus, skinnable UI, download manager...

There were so many firsts that I really can't remember all, and I'm sure that is an hard task even for the opera guys.

The other browsers anyway are getting better:  they learned to copy faster.

Firefox took just 3 or 4 months to copy the new red opera menu


Speed dial: Fine
Bookmark synchronization: Fine
Zoom: I think browsers have had zoom for a while. Are we talking images inclusive zoom, not just text?
Dynamic mail folders: Define
Low bandwidth mode: Are we talking about turbo? That's just proxying tied to one company. Pretty much any proxy will compress content...
Mouse gestures: Fine, but not necessarily better. I've been told (don't use them myself) that Firefox is more customizable via extensions in that regard (more opitons).
Voice functions: Narrator & other voice plugins have worked with IE and others for a long time.
Quick search menus: Define
Skinnable: Firefox has been skinnable due to the XUL interface for a long time. When did Opera first become skinnable?
Download manager: I believe you're right in this case, but iCab may have had it earlier.

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #18 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 13:29:53 »
Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;329294
I'll address the rest of your points in a moment, but that button? Opera copied from 3.7 mockups. One moment while I find the appropriate mockup link...

Here, the name was changed after the initial publication in June 2009 (hence the redirect from 3.7 -> 4.0).


Even if this is true, if opera is able to translate a good idea in a real function quicker is still an opera advantage.

Quote
Zoom: I think browsers have had zoom for a while. Are we talking images inclusive zoom, not just text?



I think that in 2000 if not before Opera had a fully working zoom, surely all browser in 2011 can zoom pretty well but i suggest to download something contemporary from microsoft or netscape/mozilla/whatever and tell me what happen zooming a page.

Quote
Dynamic mail folders: Define

I suggest to try the opera's mail client, something similar is now present on outlook (since the 2007 version if I recall correctly), I can't remember how MS calls the cloned function, which is still a bad copy

BTW you can look here to get the idea

http://www.opera.com/browser/tutorials/mail/quickstart/

Quote
Low bandwidth mode: Are we talking about turbo? That's just proxying tied to one company. Pretty much any proxy will compress content...


Haha, I speak about something you can use with a single mouse click, not about something available theoretically or available from an external program like artera.

So please compare apples with apples opera, here, does something that is still unavailable on the other browsers.

Quote
Mouse gestures: Fine, but not necessarily better. I've been told (don't use them myself) that Firefox is more customizable via extensions in that regard (more opitons).



Again, the extensions are fine, but if opera can do something w/o the extension is waaay better, considering the fact that opera is still lighter and quicker than firefox w/o the extensions


Quote
Voice functions: Narrator & other voice plugins have worked with IE and others for a long time.


See above

Quote
Quick search menus: Define


You can create custom scare field whit a click of the mouse, and you can do it since the glacial era...

The custom search fields are also synchronized and you will get that fields quickly on your mobile and in every PC you use.

Quote
Skinnable: Firefox has been skinnable due to the XUL interface for a long time. When did Opera first become skinnable?

The cross platform skin support arrived at the end of 2002, the windows only skin support was already there, I can't remember when started.

All in all the Opera's problem is always the same, the users are trying to use it as they are used to the other browsers, which in turn are copying the look and feel of IE or Netscape, and are too lazy to discover the HUGE difference.
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Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #19 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 14:26:05 »
Quote from: The Solutor;329333
Even if this is true, if opera is able to translate a good idea in a real function quicker is still an opera advantage.

[...]

All in all the Opera's problem is always the same, the users are trying to use it as they are used to the other browsers, which in turn are copying the look and feel of IE or Netscape, and are too lazy to discover the HUGE difference.

Regarding your points: Fair enough. I don't find a lot of those features useful, or they're implemented well. In my experience, Firefox implements the features in a less quirky fashion on the whole.


Quote from: The Solutor;329333
Again, the extensions are fine, but if opera can do something w/o the extension is waaay better, considering the fact that opera is still lighter and quicker than firefox w/o the extensions
Lighter under certain scenarios? Yes. But in a day where new machines pretty much always ship with 4GB-8GB of memory, a few MB of RAM is not a big concern. Firefox 4 dramatically reduced inefficient XPCOM calls and consolidated drive writes to a couple threads. I don't find Opera significantly quicker.

Even then, the extensibility of Firefox is better, IMO. NoScript + RequestPolicy + BetterPrivacy is an unbeatable combo. I can send NZBs/Torrents and monitor my queues from Firefox on my laptop to the Usenet/Torrent client on my desktop. Userscript support is superior. The point is, Opera may include a number of useful features (to some), and it may have been first in many cases. However, Firefox delivers a better package and lets developers modify the rendering/browser behavior to a much deeper degree than WebKit or Presto; Ad blocking is a prime example of this (ABP in Firefox and resource blocking vs. WebKit browsers, Presto).

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #20 on: Tue, 12 April 2011, 20:17:13 »
Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;329370



Lighter under certain scenarios? Yes. But in a day where new machines pretty much always ship with 4GB-8GB of memory, a few MB of RAM is not a big concern. Firefox 4 dramatically reduced inefficient XPCOM calls and consolidated drive writes to a couple threads. I don't find Opera significantly quicker.



FF4 is surely a step forward, but while FF get better opera is still evolving, is hard to catch a race leader when you are dubbed, even if your car is working fine.

Just today Opera has released the new 11.1 version which is based on the new barracuda engine and has a bunch of new/improved features.

Anyway this seem the wrong forum to speak just about new machines, I still have two envision from 1995, a mac g4 from 2001, a Compaq TC1000 from 2003, a couple of sparcstations from 1993, a thinkpad 701C butterfly and so on.

And Opera runs well in all of them.

Quote
Even then, the extensibility of Firefox is better, IMO. NoScript + RequestPolicy + BetterPrivacy is an unbeatable combo. I can send NZBs/Torrents and monitor my queues from Firefox on my laptop to the Usenet/Torrent client on my desktop. Userscript support is superior. The point is, Opera may include a number of useful features (to some), and it may have been first in many cases. However, Firefox delivers a better package and lets developers modify the rendering/browser behavior to a much deeper degree than WebKit or Presto; Ad blocking is a prime example of this (ABP in Firefox and resource blocking vs. WebKit browsers, Presto).


So we want to speak about privacy/security?

I'm still waiting to see an user hurt by an Opera's  security flaw
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Offline godly_music

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« Reply #21 on: Wed, 13 April 2011, 08:44:00 »
muchadoaboutnothing raises one major point: Opera decides it adheres to standards and does it in a very hardcore way. Its solution to this is the User JavaScript thingie, where a script looks for nonstandard pages and tries to make them look as other browsers do. I find this strict adherence admirable actually, it's just a bit silly because Opera is not so big a player that it would have the impact they are hoping to get, that being "You fix your HTML".

Compare browsers on an old Pentium 4. You'll find Opera has them ALL beat in speed and responsiveness. This advantage diminishes the more modern your hardware gets, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the most economical with system resources. 11.10 has made tab creation just a tick slower thanks to a supposedly heavier (but fancier) speed dial, but it still has all other browsers beat here as well. I found Chromium to be notoriously slow when doing UI stuff like making tabs.

I haven't found a browser that was entirely bugless. You're not just looking at the software, you're also looking at every webpage on the internet. Concerning security holes, are you kidding me? ALL of the browsers get those fixed quickly. IE doesn't count. ActiveX is a single fat security flaw, so I'm not taking it seriously as a modern browser.

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #22 on: Wed, 13 April 2011, 08:54:10 »
Quote from: The Solutor;329742
So we want to speak about privacy/security?

I'm still waiting to see an user hurt by an Opera's  security flaw

Attacks on the browser are becoming rare. Opera had security through obscurity before that (too small of a target to be worth targeting), and generally better coding than previous versions of IE.

The big attack vector nowadays is plugin/OS exploits that can be executed in browser. Like the attack here the other day. A Windows Help center vulnerability (malformed link) and a Java exploit. Opera wouldn't protect against either of those - the applet ran in Opera (I was on the latest Java version, so the exploit wasn't effective - however, few users keep java up to date & old versions are kept when new versions are installed. The Help Center exploit didn't work because I wasn't on XP, much less an unpatched Windows install - my antivirus flipped out though). By exploiting Flash, you can hit 99% of targets instead of some percentage under 50% (common plugins vs. targeting a browser). Browser manufacturers have gotten better with automatic updating, which only serves to make plugins a more attractive target.

NoScript + BetterPrivacy can save you from XSS attacks that might compromise your privacy or have unwanted effects (redirect to an attack page, or a shock site), and they can save you from malware that doesn't just exploit the browser.

Chrome prompted to run the Java plugin on GH, which is odd, because a lot of sites run Java unprompted for me. I'm not sure why. Chrome doesn't sandbox plugins (with the exception of Flash, which has recently been partially sandboxed), so any exploit that works on Java for NPAPI browsers (anything but IE, essentially) would have worked had you hit run in Chrome.

Anyhow, forgetting security, privacy is an issue. I can choose to allow Facebook.net requests from Facebook.com. If iMav were to embed a Facebook widget on every Geekhack page, I could deny those requests. Why might I do so? It gives Facebook tremendous insight as to how I spend my time on the web when I'm not on Facebook - where I visit, how long I spend there, et cetera. It's not just cookies that are the issue (there's browser fingerprinting, Flash LSOs, HTML5 localStorage, etc.). It goes beyond simple Javascript whitelisting/blacklisting (NoScript has heurustics, HTTPS Enforcer engine, and a slew of other features; RequestPolicy controls Cross Site Requests). You might be giving 5 or more parties access to a relatively large amount of information; based on your activities, and partners who share data with Qualtrics, they can know how old you are, your education level, your gender, your location, etc. and build a profile around you. Qualtrics is free for publishers (premium features are extra), so a TON of sites use it. Same with Google Analytics.

You can use Opera, and be fine with it. I spoke with the devs on Reddit, gave them some praise and some flak. I have issues with some design issues and priorities taken, and I strongly believe that Firefox was lagging, but is now close enough to Opera that it doesn't matter beyond synthetic benchmarks (I will acknowledge that I don't have any really old machines in use right now, so I can't speak for memory usage on lower power machines). I didn't really care when FF4 finally took the Sunspider crown because, even by Mozilla's admission, it's a synthetic, unrealistic test that all browsers score closely in.

My point is:
There are plenty of reasons to use Opera. They did implement many features first (tabs were not among them, and Opera copied from the 3.7 mockups). Regardless of who is "stealing" from whom, it's absurd to complain about it. Software developers respond to their users, and if a feature is useful, the others will want to implement it. I could go on and on when/if Opera implements X-Do-Not-Track, and how they copied from Mozilla, but I don't care - it's a step forward for the web and Opera users alike. There are usage scenarios under which each browser is useful. I find the "kitchen sink" approach a tough sell, and appreciate Gecko's extensibility and vast variety of extensions. For that reason, Opera is installed on my PC, but I rarely use it.

Just my two cents.

Quote from: godly_music;329944
muchadoaboutnothing raises one major point: Opera decides it adheres to standards and does it in a very hardcore way. Its solution to this is the User JavaScript thingie, where a script looks for nonstandard pages and tries to make them look as other browsers do. I find this strict adherence admirable actually, it's just a bit silly because Opera is not so big a player that it would have the impact they are hoping to get, that being "You fix your HTML".

Every browser does this. Firefox 4 has a standards mode too, and it triggers in pretty much the same ways (Valid doctype + character encoding = Strict standards mode).

Opera's issue, from what I've seen, is its performance in quirks mode (when it has to fall back).


Quote from: godly_music;329944
Compare browsers on an old Pentium 4. You'll find Opera has them ALL beat in speed and responsiveness. This advantage diminishes the more modern your hardware gets, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the most economical with system resources. 11.10 has made tab creation just a tick slower thanks to a supposedly heavier (but fancier) speed dial, but it still has all other browsers beat here as well. I found Chromium to be notoriously slow when doing UI stuff like making tabs.

Again, I don't use any really old machines. I remember Opera ran well on my P4 machine when FF 3.5 suffered (caps blew, it's gone now).


Quote from: godly_music;329944
I haven't found a browser that was entirely bugless. You're not just looking at the software, you're also looking at every webpage on the internet. Concerning security holes, are you kidding me?

True, but the big target is the plugins now.

Quote from: godly_music;329944
ALL of the browsers get those fixed quickly. IE doesn't count. ActiveX is a single fat security flaw, so I'm not taking it seriously as a modern browser.

NPAPI (used by Gecko, Presto, WebKit, etc.) isn't inherently more secure than ActiveX; things essentially run with the same permission level. If pepper takes off it could mean a lot, but in the meantime most exploits that work on ActiveX versions of Flash/Java/Shockwave/Adobe Reader/etc. work on the NPAPI versions too.
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 April 2011, 09:07:30 by muchadoaboutnothing »

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #23 on: Wed, 13 April 2011, 14:02:30 »
Quote from: ripster;330036
My thought is it's just another browser.


Opera was released before before explorer, firefox, chrome, and so on, just netscape was released few months before.

So who is "another browser" ?
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Offline strum4h

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« Reply #24 on: Wed, 13 April 2011, 14:20:27 »
I just use chrome.
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Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #25 on: Wed, 13 April 2011, 16:15:10 »
Quote from: The Solutor;330118
Opera was released before before explorer, firefox, chrome, and so on, just netscape was released few months before.

So who is "another browser" ?


[list=a]
  • He's trolling you.
  • Firefox is essentially a trimmed Mozilla application suite, which was essentially Netscape until AOL spun it off. Different name, same lineage. First release of Netscape was in 1994.
  • IE1 was released in August 1995. Opera wasn't publicly released until December of 1996. Both had to have existed (and be debugged, etc.) before then.
  • Obviously Opera predates Chrome, but older <> better (by nature; it can lead to a mature product, but it can also lead to a stagnant, outdated one. I wouldn't put Opera in this negative context, just saying that age of a piece of software isn't really valid as a way to justify it being "better".

Offline The Solutor

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« Reply #26 on: Wed, 13 April 2011, 18:21:03 »
Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;330170
[list=a]
  • He's trolling you.
I know, it's reciprocal :smile:
The problem with quotes on the Internet is you never know if they are true  (Abraham Lincoln)