Qwerty?

[Findecanor]

those papers are 10, 20, even 26 years old@!!!

 The evolution of human hands have changed very little in that time.

[Lanx]

yea but the way we interact with the computer/keyboard is different... such as the use of a pointing device and how that factors into rsi/cts. eh maybe i'll read the most recent paper, but i hope it's not done by some old lady who used to be a secretary and now has like death arms... like that vid we saw last time.

oh wow papers are like less than a page long, and mostly go into the design of the maltron anyway, it's stuff we know really, if you're into ergonomics.

[Tony]

100 years is just like an eye blink in revolution of mankind. Who cares, maybe in 2311 Qwerty keyboards would be antiques.

[graywolf]

Anyway, regarding the topic, I tried typing on QWERTY today and it felt like I was typing on an Alien keyboard. It's only been three months but it feels so strange to me now. I had used QWERTY for 12 years!

Not realizing it, you make my point. Suppose you type on your alt layout only for a couple of years? Then you get a job where you have to type on a qwerty keyboard, or you don't because you had to take a typing test on a qwerty keyboard and can not pass it?

The catch 22 of the computer age, you have lots of choices, until you look for a job. Then you have one choice, whatever your boss tells you to use. We know businesses use Windows computers, we know businesses use qwerty keyboards, we know business use MS Office. So if we want to work for them, we really do not have a choice, do we?

[graywolf]

Well, those old ladies who used to be typists can tell us something. They pounded on those typewriters 7 hours a day 5 days a week at a 100 words a minute, but did not seem to have all those hand/wrist problems we do. Computer keyboard makers give us flat low travel keys that the claim are better. The old IBM electric typewriters had keys that moved more than a half inch to active, and all the old typewriters had stepped keyboards. Maybe, new is not better.

[itlnstln]

Either that, or they weren't a bunch of wusses like the kids today.

[sordna]

Well, those old ladies who used to be typists can tell us something. They pounded on those typewriters 7 hours a day 5 days a week at a 100 words a minute, but did not seem to have all those hand/wrist problems we do.

I suspect some of them did have problems, are you sure they didn't?

Computer keyboard makers give us flat low travel keys that the claim are better. The old IBM electric typewriters had keys that moved more than a half inch to active, and all the old typewriters had stepped keyboards. Maybe, new is not better.

I think we type FAR more than the old typists did. They only typed "work", and took many micro-breaks to load a new sheet of paper, etc. They talked to their co-workers and bosses instead of constant email!

We not only type "work", we type to communicate (we sometimes email more than do actual talking), we type to look up stuff/research, and we type for recreation when not working. Not to mention we use a mouse which they did not.

That's why I believe those of us who type heavily for work should seriously avoid computer gaming and minimize use of the computer at home as much as possible. We need a break from the constant repetitive motions.

[Proword]

Not realizing it, you make my point. Suppose you type on your alt layout only for a couple of years? Then you get a job where you have to type on a qwerty keyboard, or you don't because you had to take a typing test on a qwerty keyboard and can not pass it?

The catch 22 of the computer age, you have lots of choices, until you look for a job. Then you have one choice, whatever your boss tells you to use. We know businesses use Windows computers, we know businesses use qwerty keyboards, we know business use MS Office. So if we want to work for them, we really do not have a choice, do we?

Tom, the choice is not up to the employee(s), it's up to the bosses.  If they choose to be "safe" and use what everybody else uses, then there's nothing to differentiate them from their competitors, so they don't gain any competitive advantage.  As I've mentioned previously, when I started work as a "temp" secretary, I was taking my own keyboard (and eventually computer) into the offices.  In all the time I did this, the clients expressed no difficulty with this, and in some cases, I found myself being asked to come back for further assignments.  

In order to obtain employment with the agencies, I had to undertake the standard set of tests, which included typing.  Of the five agencies I applied to I was rejected by three and accepted (and one admittedly with reservations) by two.   Those two agencies were rewarded quite well for their "bravery" because of the repeat requests for my services, and I found myself being moved further up the "pecking order" at the agencies until I was almost always the first person they called.  That  meant that I was able to pick and choose my work.

Tom, perhaps you live in a society which doesn't reward (or expect) initiative and enterprise, but during my studies for my diploma in teaching, we were told that as a word-processing operator we would be excepted to make suggestions for improvement in our workplace.  

During one stretch of working for a court reporting contractor I brought several matters to the attention of my employers, suggesting that if they continued working in their current fashion (very inefficient) they would start to lose customers if somebody else with "the smarts" that they lacked came onto the playing field.  Several years later the contractor folded (after about 15 years of existence), and I picked up some of their clients.  It wasn't a case of my chasing after the clients, they came to me, complaining about the poor service they were getting, and wanting to know if I could offer anything better.  They seemed to think I did because they stayed with me until I retired.

Joe

[Proword]

yea but the way we interact with the computer/keyboard is different... such as the use of a pointing device and how that factors into rsi/cts. eh maybe i'll read the most recent paper, but i hope it's not done by some old lady who used to be a secretary and now has like death arms... like that vid we saw last time.

oh wow papers are like less than a page long, and mostly go into the design of the maltron anyway, it's stuff we know really, if you're into ergonomics.

Judging by the standards of spelling and grammar which I see around today, highlighted by our increased reliance on using the keyboard to communicate, I'd be reluctant to place much faith in some of today's research papers.  (If you have any concerns about the CONTENT of the papers I suggested rather than their size, why not get in touch with the author, Stephen Hobday at Maltron?  He's getting on a bit, but the last time I spoke to him his mind was still pretty sharp.)

http://www.maltron.com/general-info/maltron-history.html

And with this increased keyboard usage, I'm just wondering who SHOULDN'T be "into ergonomics".  It's something which affects everyone who uses a computer I should think.  

Joe

[Lanx]

betcha those old ladies wear those forearm splints that rollerskaters wear for protection, (at least i saw 2 in my life wearing these cuz of RSI and it scared me to death when i was a teenager)

besides the modern computer basically forcing everyone to type have put them out of work (along with dragon dictate) unless they've moved on from secretary to executive assistant. From what i read on unemployment secretaries are the worse off, since they're basically obsolete now, you only see them on Mad Men.

[Proword]

besides the modern computer basically forcing everyone to type have put them out of work (along with dragon dictate) unless they've moved on from secretary to executive assistant. From what i read on unemployment secretaries are the worse off, since they're basically obsolete now, you only see them on Mad Men.

A good secretary has ALWAYS been an "executive assistant".  It's just a fancy new title.

I've used Dragon Naturally Speaking since the late '90s, still use it today, and have achieved excellent results (230 wpm, 99.9% accuracy).  Most people who think it's a dud just don't have the skill required to use it effectively, and so probably would be at greater risk of unemployment in any case.  Like most skills, it's just a case of working hard at it to achieve.  (That was one of the suggestions I made to my employer to increase the firm's efficiency.  I showed the boss what I was doing, he nodded, walked away and I just kept on practising.)

Joe

[Playtrumpet]

Joe, how often do you use Dragon? I recently tried it and I do like it, though I find it likes to use up my RAM which causes other programs to slow. I know you have a very effective abbreviation system so I was just wondering if you use it that much.

[Proword]

The Dragon is almost always on, except when I'm proofreading.  Because there's a (user) adjustable pause before speaking a command, sometimes this pause, when added to the necessary processing time,  takes longer than it would to key an abbreviation, or even type it in full, so I'll use the keyboard.  Also, the quality of the audio governs whether I use Dragon.  If it's of poor quality, and I have to play and replay to get the correct sense, the Dragon would be a hindrance.  I do what is called "shadow speaking" and repeat what I hear into the Dragon, so it only has to recognise my voice ... plus I also have to punctuate on the fly.  But poor quality audio I have to listen to more than once and sometimes speak a single word at a time.  Whilst the processing time increases with a longer utterance, it's not linear, so the processing time for a 15 second utterence is not three times longer than that of a 5 second utterance.  I've sometimes spoken for nearly a minute without stopping, and the Dragon recognised  it all with no trouble.  

However if (as the job I'm currently doing) it  is one person speaking clearly at reasonable speed, I can quite literally step on the gas, and push the replay speed up by 10 or 12% above "normal" and do it in better than real time.  Say I can transcribe 12 seconds of speech in 9-10 seconds.  

Really whether I use Dragon, keyboard abbreviations or "vanilla typing" (typing everything in full) is  a second-by-second decision making process.

Yes, the Dragon does love to eat up the RAM (I've got 8 GB) but my current version of Dragon (11.1) straight out of the box is brilliant, and hasn't slowed things down noticeably.

Joe

[Proword]

Joe, how often do you use Dragon? I recently tried it and I do like it, though I find it likes to use up my RAM which causes other programs to slow. I know you have a very effective abbreviation system so I was just wondering if you use it that much.

This link

http://proword-transcription.blogspot.com/


at the end will take you to my current abbreviation list.  Feel free to take any inspiration from it.  ;-)

Joe

[graywolf]

Yes, they call secretaries executive assistants these days. Where do these nuts get the idea that changing the name of a thing somehow changes the thing. The other thing is that mid-level management do not get to have one anymore, it is too expensive. BTW, back in the 1900's almost all secretaries were male, as were a lot of other positions that the ladies took over in the twentieth century. Then, of course, since it was a job that was mostly done by women, it somehow became an insult to call someone a secretary; despite the fact that the best ones made a heck of a lot of money.

[graywolf]

Yes, they call secretaries executive assistants these days. Where do these nuts get the idea that changing the name of a thing somehow changes the thing. The other thing is that mid-level management do not get to have one anymore, it is too expensive. BTW, back in the 1900's almost all secretaries were male, as were a lot of other positions that the ladies took over in the twentieth century. Then, of course, since it was a job that was mostly done by women, it somehow became an insult to call someone a secretary. Despite the fact that the best ones made a heck of a lot of money.

Of interest, that little old lady sitting in the middle of the court room clacking away on her strange black steno machine is often the highest paid person in the room.

[Proword]

Of interest, that little old lady sitting in the middle of the court room clacking away on her strange black steno machine is often the highest paid person in the room.

And sometimes, there's just not enough money to make the job worthwhile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJAy7k2to3c

Joe

[Playtrumpet]

Mm. Of course, any court reporter is allowed to request a translator/interpreter for people who are too difficult to understand. The profession itself and the steno machine are the two things that got me into this world of keyboards in the first place. Just made me ashamed of my contentment with Qwerty.