Is Anarchy Utopia?

[keyboardlover]

This also shows some of the similarities between anarchism and communism and why neither are realistic.

There isn't a whole lot of progress because there isn't a whole lot of incentive. As the saying goes "the beauty of communism is that you don't have to worry about the future - because you don't have one!"

[RiGS]

So who upholds this contract when one of them decides to not honor it?

 
There is no need to uphold the contract. Either the company or the customers can decide to terminate the contract at any point, but always there will be consequences, like loss of trust and prestige, at that point an other company could appear on the market.

[ClosedBSD]

There is no need to uphold the contract. Either the company or the customers can decide to terminate the contract at any point, but always there will be consequences, like loss of trust and prestige, at that point an other company could appear on the market.

Ahh, I see. So the customer gets screwed out of their end of the contract, and the company can choose to re-form under a new name or with a shell company and start the process all over again. Meanwhile, the customer is expected to spend time tracking the company and all it's members and make sure that they never do business with any of them again.

[RiGS]

Ahh, I see. So the customer gets screwed out of their end of the contract, and the company can choose to re-form under a new name or with a shell company and start the process all over again. Meanwhile, the customer is expected to spend time tracking the company and all it's members and make sure that they never do business with any of them again.

 
There could be other types of companies hired which are specialized in preventing such type of fraud, and terminate the license of the scammers.

As I said nothing is ever perfect and it never will be.

[ClosedBSD]

There could be other types of companies hired which are specialized in preventing such type of fraud, and terminate the license of the scammers.

As I said nothing is ever perfect and it never will be.

Licenses you say? Sounds like your anarchism is becoming less of an anarchy every minute!

Maybe the free market can provide us with a collection of legislators who create further rules and courts to prevent scamming by the licensing groups?

[RiGS]

An anarchy can be very similar in nature to the current system, but it is easier to prevent such abuses like, Codex Alimentarius, the operation of TSA & FED, and to stop unwanted wars.
But as I said I think the old US Constitution is a good alternative of freedom.

[ClosedBSD]

An anarchy can be very similar in nature to the current system, but it is easier to prevent such abuses like, Codex Alimentarius, the operation of TSA & FED, and to stop unwanted wars.
But as I said I think the old US Constitution is a good alternative of freedom.

Anarchy just shifts the power to different people and then re-centralizes it, leaving us with all the same problems, if not more, but without the ability to vote.

Also: Codex Alimentarius? Really? You think properly labeling food and medicine in a way that is readable in many languages and is organized is an abuse of power? Are you nuts?

The again, you threw THE FED out there too without citing anything, so I'm guessing you're just a Paulite who believes the major problem with the Federal Reserve is something about inflation devaluing your money unfairly.

[RiGS]

Codex Alimentarius has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

In fact this act destroys small family farms, imprisons raw milk producers and centralizes food production in the hands of the big corporate food producers like Monsanto.
My problem with the Federal Reserve is that nothing federal about it. It is a private bank that controlling the worlds reserve currency without any transparency.

Also you may be okay with genital groping, and excessive radiation from those harass scanners, but many find it an abuse and unacceptable.

[ClosedBSD]

Codex Alimentarius has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

In fact this act destroys small family farms, imprisons raw milk producers and centralizes food production in the hands of the big corporate food producers like Monsanto.

I didn't know why you thought anarchy was a better alternative to properly labeled and safer food.

True as this may be, we label food for a really good reason: so people don't get sick from their good.

Properly labeling food is fairly trivial for people to do, and "raw milk" producers shouldn't be selling their product anyways since it is potentially harmful to the customers, at close to no benefit.

Of course, I'm sure you'll just say that in your Anarchy Utopia, people should have the right to buy unlabeled ice cream that may include asbestos as a thickener or something, and twenty years later when they get stomach cancer they'll know not to buy from that company anymore

[RiGS]

Now it is clear that you are debunker agent working for those organizations.
I guess then enjoy your labeled GMO ****.

[ClosedBSD]

Also you may be okay with genital groping, and excessive radiation from those harass scanners, but many find it an abuse and unacceptable.

 
Yeah, I specifically left out the TSA because that is clearly an abuse.

[ClosedBSD]

Now it is clear that you are debunker agent working for those organizations.
I guess then enjoy your labeled GMO ****.

 
Or I just don't believe that everyone and everything in the world is some huge conspiracy against me.

But you're right, it is possible that THE FED and Monsanto hired me to come here, buy keyboards, and debunk your nutty theories.

[HaveANiceDay]

Dude, anarchy sounded SO AWESOME when I was 14!

[quadibloc]

Let's not derail this thread.
If you want to debate on overpopulation, I'm more than happy to to that in a new topic.

If the argument that anarchy is a desirable way to organize a society depends on overpopulation being a myth, then this issue is on topic.

In any case, overpopulation (at least in principle) cannot be a myth. At any given level of technology, to support people at any given standard of living requires a certain quantity of land and other resources per person. Hence, the population can be in excess of that which permits a target standard of living from being achieved immediately, without waiting for new technologies to become available.

In practice, what has been observed through history is that population has increased to a level resulting in general misery, because technologies that increase the world's effective carrying capacity come along intermittently and slowly.

For the governments of the world's rich countries to adopt policies to ensure their countries won't be sucked in if the Third World implodes isn't mass murder, it is prudent responsibility for the lives of their own citizens.

Properly labeling food is fairly trivial for people to do, and "raw milk" producers shouldn't be selling their product anyways since it is potentially harmful to the customers, at close to no benefit.

Hey, some people think it cures cancer.

[ClosedBSD]

Dude, anarchy sounded SO AWESOME when I was 14!

 
Pretty much this, anarchy sounds cool to people who think it is an excuse to do whatever you want and aren't old enough to understand that human interaction doesn't work that way.

[curzen]

Here are some videos of a police state. These are made after the events when the Greek parliament agreed to Mafia-like terms demanded by the international loan sharking operation.
snip

 

aka back to reality after collectively living beyond their means and not paying their bills. crying and shouting won't help and suddenly let money rain from the sky.

[The Solutor]

aka back to reality after collectively living beyond their means and not paying their bills. crying and shouting won't help and suddenly let money rain from the sky.

 
The whole Europe are still paying for the Germany reunification and the countries with a weaker economy are the ones that suffers more.

Mistakes are made by but Germany should stop to act as a victim of the events when it is one of the culprit...

[ClosedBSD]

The whole Europe are still paying for the Germany reunification and the countries with a weaker economy are the ones that suffers more.

Mistakes are made by but Germany should stop to act as a victim of the events when it is one of the culprit...

Yeah, this is more of a case of people being predatory lenders to Greece than Greece "living on the high horse".

Side note: Germany JUST finished World War one reparations last year.

[curzen]

The whole Europe are still paying for the Germany reunification and the countries with a weaker economy are the ones that suffers more.

Mistakes are made by but Germany should stop to act as a victim of the events when it is one of the culprit...

paying in a metaphorical way or according to you actually as far as EU payouts directed towards former GDR states? Because the latter would be total bull****.

Net payer and receiver positions of the Member States (in € millions), 2009 (source european commission eurostat)

Deutschland -5.850,7
Frankreich -5.196,1
Italien -4.540,7
Vereinigtes Königreich -1632,9
Dänemark -880,0
Finnland -491,2
Österreich -342,4
Schweden -33,1
Zypern 7,3
Malta 16,5
Irland 21,0
Slowenien 77,3
Niederlande 231,5
Lettland 513,3
Slowakei 564,4
Estland 581,4
Bulgarien 641,6
Luxemburg 1.177,6
Spanien 1.446,1
Litauen 1.508,3
Rumänien 1.733,2
Tschechien 1.741,6
Portugal 2.205,1
Belgien 2.390,3
Ungarn 2.752,6
Griechenland 3.200,0
Polen 6.417,9

from memory, the stats have basically looked like that for decades. So please elaborate, how are all the EU members paying for Germany after the reunification more than 20 years ago?

[curzen]

Yeah, this is more of a case of people being predatory lenders to Greece than Greece "living on the high horse".

Side note: Germany JUST finished World War one reparations last year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_debt_crisis#Greek_government_funding_crisis

do yourself a favor and at least take the easy way out of reading that and the source material.

PS: not sure how the WW1 payments which were deferred according to the London treaty after WW2 concerning lost territories which became active again due to the reunification and have been served on schedule have any relevance to the apparent main topic of greek debt.

[ClosedBSD]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_debt_crisis#Greek_government_funding_crisis

do yourself a favor and at least take the easy way out of reading that and the source material.

PS: not sure how the WW1 payments which were deferred according to the London treaty after WW2 concerning lost territories which became active again due to the reunification and have been served on schedule have any relevance to the apparent main topic of greek debt.

The side note was more of a 'fun fact' in regards to the post WW2 reconstruction that was going on.

Your quote above seemed to put more emphasis on the fault of the citizens of Greece in this crisis, when the government was clearly the ones cooking the books and letting tax evasion happen. Now that their solution is mass austerity with some proper taxation thrown in, I'd imagine the people are more angry that they were lied to and allowed to live in a dream world and forced to deal with the consequences at once, when moderate decreses in benfits, well-planed public sector projects, and much stronger tax enforcement could have made that economic pain barely noticeable over the past ~20 years.

[The Solutor]

paying in a metaphorical way or according to you actually as far as EU payouts directed towards former GDR states? Because the latter would be total bull****.

Economy of whole states is a complex matter, that the simple math of money given ad received to and from UE wouldn't explain at all.

Se your metaphorical way translates in real money... a lot of real money...

In the late 90, before the euro introduction the currency exchange rates had a dramatic change, ant this was mainly because the whole EU economy became weaker, and became weaker because Germany, the EU locomotive was fatigued by the reunification.

BUT the state who suffered more was not Germany, were Italy, Grece, Belgium and so on.

Around few months the exchange ratio between DM and ITL went from 700 ITL for a marc to 1400 for a marc, and with different extent, the same happened to many EU currencies.

This mean more than doubled foreign debts, this mean revolutionized value for the state's bond and so on...

So please elaborate, how are all the EU members paying for Germany after the reunification more than 20 years ago?

 

In a reduced scale south of Italy is still paying for similar events happened 150 years ago, Ireland paid for, more than a century, a single moment of crisis due to the infamous potato famine, and so on...

When big numbers are involved, 20 years are a ridiculously short amount of time.

[curzen]

The side note was more of a 'fun fact' in regards to the post WW2 reconstruction that was going on.

Your quote above seemed to put more emphasis on the fault of the citizens of Greece in this crisis, when the government was clearly the ones cooking the books and letting tax evasion happen. Now that their solution is mass austerity with some proper taxation thrown in, I'd imagine the people are more angry that they were lied to and allowed to live in a dream world and forced to deal with the consequences at once, when moderate decreses in benfits, well-planed public sector projects, and much stronger tax enforcement could have made that economic pain barely noticeable over the past ~20 years.

the greek government was taking on massive debt with a good deal of it going directly to its citizens in various forms, this was never a secret and is a direct result of whom the greek elected into office.

[curzen]

Economy of whole states is a complex matter, that the simple math of money given ad received to and from UE wouldn't explain at all.

Se your metaphorical way translates in real money... a lot of real money...

In the late 90, before the euro introduction the currency exchange rates had a dramatic change, ant this was mainly because the whole EU economy became weaker, and became weaker because Germany, the EU locomotive was fatigued by the reunification.

BUT the state who suffered more was not Germany, were Italy, Grece, Belgium and so on.

Around few months the exchange ratio between DM and ITL went from 700 ITL for a marc to 1400 for a marc, and with different extent the same happened to many EU currencies.

This mean more than doubled foreign debts, this mean revolutionized value for the states bond and so on...


 

In a reduced scale south of Italy is still paying for similar events (in reduced scale) happened 150 years ago, Ireland paid for more than a century a single moment of crisis due to the infamous potato famine, and so on...

When big numbers are involved, 20 years are a ridiculously short amount of time.

I call bull**** on that due to exchange rates having been moderated within the EU since the late 70's. Got any citation for a sudden devaluation of the Lira as you claim? Not that even if it were the case it'd translate into other countries paying for the german reunification, it's just one of many signs of weak and mismanaged local economies.

Before the currency union, today’s crisis countries in particular, especially Greece, had to pay very high interest rates to finance both their national debt and private investments. In the course of the integration process, both nominal and real interest rates have fallen to levels that have long been present in Germany. Posen mentions this, but neglects to sufficiently appreciate the point.

Yet neither finance ministries nor businesses took advantage of the golden opportunity arising from the dramatic lowering of interest rates for the economies in question. Before the currency union, low interest rates in Germany were constantly criticized as a disproportionate competitive advantage for the German economy. This changed with the currency union. Yet the economies of Greece, Italy, and Portugal never utilized this chance to either reduce national debt or increase private investment. Instead, in some countries the low finance costs were used to increase government spending and expand private consumption. The benefits of lower interest rates can be clearly identified. Interest payments on Greece’s national debt sank from 11.9 percent of annual economic output in 1994 to 4.2 percent in 2007 - (http://www.ip-global.org/2011/05/15/rewards-for-bad-behavior/) so in total the opposite happened of what you claimed.

[The Solutor]

Look what happened, not just to, the italian lira in the 1990 decade.



Do you really think that, in normal conditions, a nation who had to face a such expensive process should be represented this way by the exchange rates ?

Or is more likely that the German unification affected more the rest of the Europe than the Germany itself ?

Do you really think that, suddenly, French, Italians, British, and so on, become dumb ?

[keyboardlover]

I preferred the Lira. Everything was cheap the first time I went to Italy

[curzen]

@solutor: What I see in your graphs is that countries with a sound economy who haven't gone full retard came out either breaking even or on top.

[vils]

A single person cannot change a whole society on its own, but a bunch of people can achieve great changes.

Gandhi is a perfect example and a true idol at least for me.

I originally intended to post something about cornflakes and mastrubation to prove a point about some of the problems with anarchism. But when Gandhis name showed up I have to say that the racicst fakirs main good feature was that he was killed before he could implement his ludicrous idea of self-sustainibility. His death coul'ed have saved millions of lives.

[vils]

Socialist

You have two cows.
The government takes one and gives it to your neighbour.
You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow.

Communist

You have two cows.
The government seizes both and provides you with milk.
You wait in line for hours to get it.
It is expensive and sour.

Capitalism, American style

You have two cows.
You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.

Democracy, American style

You have two cows.
The government taxes you to the point you have to sell both to support a man in a foreign country who has only one cow, which was a gift from your'
government.

Bureaucracy, American style

You have two cows.
The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, and then pours the milk down the drain.

Democracy, American style

The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it.
After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures.
The press dubs the affair "Cowgate"

Feudalism

You have two cows.
Your lord takes some of the milk.

Pure socialism

You have two cows.
The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows.
You have to take care of all the cows.
The government gives you as much milk as you need

Bureaucratic socialism

You have two cows.
The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows.
They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers.
You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers.
The government gives you as much milk and as many eggs as the regulations say you should need.

Fascism

You have two cows.
The government takes both, hires you to take care of them, and sells you the milk.

Pure communism

You have two cows.
Your neighbours help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

Russian communism

You have two cows.
You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.

Dictatorship

You have two cows.
The government takes both and shoots you.

Singaporean democracy

You have two cows.
The government fines you for keeping two unlicensed farm animals in an apartment.

Militarianism

You have two cows.
The government takes both and drafts you.


Pure democracy

You have two cows.
Your neighbours decide who gets the milk.

Representative democracy

You have two cows.
Your neighbours pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.

British democracy

You have two cows.
You feed them sheeps' brains and they go mad.
The government doesn't do anything.

Bureaucracy

You have two cows.
At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them.
Then it pays you not to milk them.
After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain.
Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows

Anarchy

You have two cows.
Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbours try to kill you and take the cows

Capitalism

You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull

Hong Kong capitalism

You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly - listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother - in - law at the bank, then execute a debt / equity swap with associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax deduction for keeping five cows.

The milk rights of six cows are transferred via a Panamanian intermediary to a Cayman Islands company secretly owned by the majority shareholder, who sells the rights to all seven cows' milk back to the listed company.
The annual report says that the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. Meanwhile, you kill the two cows because the fung shui is bad.


Environmentalism

You have two cows.
The government bans you from milking or killing them.

Feminism

You have two cows.
They get married and adopt a veal calf.

Totalitarianism

You have two cows.
The government takes them and denies they ever existed.
Milk is banned.

Political Correctness

You are associated with (the concept of "ownership" is a symbol of the phallo - centric, war - mongering, intolerant past) two differently - aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non - specified gender.

Counter Culture

Wow, dude, there's like... these two cows, man.
You got to have some of this milk.

Surrealism

You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

[The Solutor]

Capitalism, American style

 You have two cows.
 You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.

In the meantime your neighbor is dead because has nothing to eat.

[ClosedBSD]

In the meantime your neighbor is dead because has nothing to eat.

 
^^ this is the more accurate one

[alaricljs]

Well, that's my neighbors problem.  Perhaps if he were also my friend or family then I would have helped as I could.

[Lpb45]

Socialist

You have two cows.
The government takes one and gives it to your neighbour.
You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow.

Communist

You have two cows.
The government seizes both and provides you with milk.
You wait in line for hours to get it.
It is expensive and sour.

Capitalism, American style

You have two cows.
You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.

Democracy, American style

You have two cows.
The government taxes you to the point you have to sell both to support a man in a foreign country who has only one cow, which was a gift from your'
government.

Bureaucracy, American style

You have two cows.
The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, and then pours the milk down the drain.

Democracy, American style

The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it.
After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures.
The press dubs the affair "Cowgate"

Feudalism

You have two cows.
Your lord takes some of the milk.

Pure socialism

You have two cows.
The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows.
You have to take care of all the cows.
The government gives you as much milk as you need

Bureaucratic socialism

You have two cows.
The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows.
They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers.
You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers.
The government gives you as much milk and as many eggs as the regulations say you should need.

Fascism

You have two cows.
The government takes both, hires you to take care of them, and sells you the milk.

Pure communism

You have two cows.
Your neighbours help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

Russian communism

You have two cows.
You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.

Dictatorship

You have two cows.
The government takes both and shoots you.

Singaporean democracy

You have two cows.
The government fines you for keeping two unlicensed farm animals in an apartment.

Militarianism

You have two cows.
The government takes both and drafts you.


Pure democracy

You have two cows.
Your neighbours decide who gets the milk.

Representative democracy

You have two cows.
Your neighbours pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.

British democracy

You have two cows.
You feed them sheeps' brains and they go mad.
The government doesn't do anything.

Bureaucracy

You have two cows.
At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them.
Then it pays you not to milk them.
After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain.
Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows

Anarchy

You have two cows.
Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbours try to kill you and take the cows

Capitalism

You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull

Hong Kong capitalism

You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly - listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother - in - law at the bank, then execute a debt / equity swap with associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax deduction for keeping five cows.

The milk rights of six cows are transferred via a Panamanian intermediary to a Cayman Islands company secretly owned by the majority shareholder, who sells the rights to all seven cows' milk back to the listed company.
The annual report says that the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. Meanwhile, you kill the two cows because the fung shui is bad.


Environmentalism

You have two cows.
The government bans you from milking or killing them.

Feminism

You have two cows.
They get married and adopt a veal calf.

Totalitarianism

You have two cows.
The government takes them and denies they ever existed.
Milk is banned.

Political Correctness

You are associated with (the concept of "ownership" is a symbol of the phallo - centric, war - mongering, intolerant past) two differently - aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non - specified gender.

Counter Culture

Wow, dude, there's like... these two cows, man.
You got to have some of this milk.

Surrealism

You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

This is great.  A+