Author Topic: Alternative to TKL? (Read 3928 times)

Glockateer · « **on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 15:45:13 »

I was thinking earlier about tenkeyless keyboards. The space saving is nice since not everyone needs a numpad but I'm wondering why there isn't any "arrowkeyless" type boards. Having numlock off still has arrow keys and the 6 key cluster built in so it could be easily swapped for people who want numpads still. The only downside I can think of is it is 1 key length longer but keeps the full use of a numpad while saving space. The design would be similar to the razer marauder minus the goofy design on the numpad.

I'm also not a fan of the in-keyboard numpads using 789uiojkl.

shrap · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 16:10:23 »

Here are some previous threads on the subject:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20232-compact-mechanical-keyboard-a-case-for-the-IBM-PC-AT-layout
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?6371-Why-Tenkeyless-Let-s-get-rid-of-the-arrow-keys-amp-Pageup-Pagedown-cluster-cluster
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?13264-My-Ultimate-Compact-Layout
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?16640-tenkeyless

Alas, "Arrow-key-less" doesn't have quite the same ring to it. TKL is already quite difficult to market, AKL might be more difficult.

False_Dmitry_II · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 16:19:01 »

You missed mine:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?16640-tenkeyless

It seems that even though you have full functionality that way nobody cares so that doesn't exist. The only thing I would want to be different for a numpad that is like that would be for the arrow keys to be in the same inverted T that the separate ones are in. The only real suggestion in there was the model f at, but that is still normal sized because of the f keys on the side instead of the top. There are a few apple boards previous to the extendeds that do something like that, but they also have no function keys and such so are not of much use.

Who knows, maybe it's because people have no idea that those keys are even there on the keypad since most of the time you boot with it on and then on top of that those things generally no longer have their legends on the numpad.

Mazora · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 16:19:25 »

10KyLess Could Be An Alternative Too

shrap · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 19:03:25 »

TKL = tickle
AKL = ackle

Filco Otaku Tickle sounds dirty.

Glockateer · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 19:44:39 »

Why the attachment to arrow keys? I use the ones on my numpad for those even. I understand that AKL would probably have a tough time, though. Maybe I'll mod a shell or find another one like it to change. I don't like the arrow keys pushing into the keyboard/numpad in those compact layouts. It is like that on my choc mini, too. Nadger's layout is rather good but I'd probably keep the original placement of keys since I'm used to it and it has been like that for pretty much everyone.

On another note, maybe tenkeyless is having trouble since it doesn't have a numpad? It is hard to say which layout would win since AKL would have more broad range appeal.

Glockateer · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 19:53:44 »

I use the numpad a lot, though. It's part of the reason all but 1 of my boards is full size. I don't have a use for two sets of arrow keys and two sets of the 6 functions there.

BiNiaRiS · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 20:07:31 »

I like the G80-1800s layout.

Sent from my EVO

N8N · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 20:12:14 »

mmm.... I hate hate hate the G80-1800. I like my arrow keys and nav block right where they are, I think I'd rather get rid of the keypad. But I don't have a tenkeyless at all, maybe next time I feel like blowing money on something frivolous I'll pick one up to try though.

False_Dmitry_II · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 20:19:31 »

TBH, if you're just talking trying tenkeyless vs full size only form-factor wise, then if you've ever typed on a 15" screen laptop you've done this before already.

jpc · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 20:52:24 »

Obligatory Kinesis Contoured plug. They're awesome!

Soarer · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 21:37:10 »

I share Glockateer's puzzlement. Surely there's room in the market for more form factor choices!

dorkvader · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 27 September 2011, 22:24:12 »

I think the best setup would be a tenkeyless, with a separate tenkey. Using said tenkey for arrow key usage would also mean this theoretical setup should perform well with an arrowkeyless board.

BiNiaRiS · « **Reply #13 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 01:35:29 »

Quote from: N8N;422399

mmm.... I hate hate hate the G80-1800. I like my arrow keys and nav block right where they are, I think I'd rather get rid of the keypad. But I don't have a tenkeyless at all, maybe next time I feel like blowing money on something frivolous I'll pick one up to try though.

That is an entirely different arguement. The OP wants a keyboard without the arrows. He's mostly worried about the tenkey.The G80-1800 essentially is a full keyboard but the width of a TKL. Anything you do to modify a layout is gonna cause you to have to relearn to some extent. Tenkeyless is minimal, but I still find myself reaching for my invisible tenkey sometimes.

That being said, my poker is hands down my favorite keyboard right now.

BiNiaRiS · « **Reply #14 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 04:55:32 »

I just found the perfect board:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MRI-1523-001-ALPHAMERIC-QWERTY-P-O-S-WORKING-KEYBOARD-/250900513176?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3a6ad60198#ht_5862wt_1396

It even comes with a bonus trackball

Findecanor · « **Reply #15 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 07:19:41 »

Quote from: Glockateer;422249

Having numlock off still has arrow keys and the 6 key cluster built in so it could be easily swapped for people who want numpads still.

Some operating systems and programs treat the numpad arrow keys as second-class citizens. You can't use them together with shift to select text, for instance. Apple Mac keyboards don't have any key either.

Keyboards for the Amstrad and Sony NEWS workstations had the inverted-T arrow keys below the numbers on the numeric keypad. The arrow was in-between and . How about that?

I think that the setup on the Roccat Arvo gaming keyboard is pretty cool. - functionality in hardware, with inverted-T and nav cluster layout on the num pad that are backlit when active.

Soarer · « **Reply #16 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 07:35:23 »

Quote from: Findecanor;422592

Some operating systems and programs treat the numpad arrow keys as second-class citizens. You can't use them together with shift to select text, for instance. Apple Mac keyboards don't have any key either.

That could be handled in the controller firmware, say by making numlock local to the keyboard, and sending codes for the non-numpad cursors. Besides, for a keyboard on a Windows machine it makes no difference (rightly or wrongly, that is the majority).

Quote from: Findecanor;422592

I think that the setup on the Roccat Arvo gaming keyboard is pretty cool. - functionality in hardware, with inverted-T and nav cluster layout on the num pad that are backlit when active.

It was an interesting idea, but just puts the wrong arrangement of keys in the right area! By that I mean that one of the benefits of the numpad cursors is that they are on/around the home row (as are the other four main navigation keys).

Glockateer · « **Reply #17 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 13:05:37 »

Quote from: Findecanor;422592

Some operating systems and programs treat the numpad arrow keys as second-class citizens. You can't use them together with shift to select text, for instance. Apple Mac keyboards don't have any key either.

Keyboards for the Amstrad and Sony NEWS workstations had the inverted-T arrow keys below the numbers on the numeric keypad. The arrow was in-between and . How about that?

I think that the setup on the Roccat Arvo gaming keyboard is pretty cool. - functionality in hardware, with inverted-T and nav cluster layout on the num pad that are backlit when active.

I never knew about numpad not working the same with other OS and programs. That is a good point for some.

However, I did forget about the arvo and after thinking about the setup the arvo/marauder has, I could live with those. It appeals to people who want the normal arrowkeys+functions and the numpad users. If only I could convince razer's next line of mechanical boards to follow the marauder with nkro and browns/blues.

shrap · « **Reply #18 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 13:56:00 »

Quote from: Findecanor;422592

Some operating systems and programs treat the numpad arrow keys as second-class citizens. You can't use them together with shift to select text, for instance. Apple Mac keyboards don't have any key either.

I do remember some kind of weird behavior like that when I switched to use the numpad-only; but since I've avoided that key combination, I have no idea how to recreate the problem. Hooray for brain plasticity?

Soarer · « **Reply #19 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 18:46:50 »

Quote from: ripster;422998

Creates a mess with a LOT of programs.

Really? I've been using the numpad cursors for years and haven't noticed any mess (in Windows, anyway).

Soarer · « **Reply #20 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 18:49:27 »

Quote from: ripster;423006

Yes really.

Well please, indulge me... can you name a common one I might be able to try?

Soarer · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 19:48:32 »

Quote from: ripster;422998

Creates a mess with a LOT of program shortcuts - like Photoshop.

OK, it's true that it messes a FEW shortcuts... namely those involving ALT + cursors or nav keys on the numpad.

I'm not even sure why that ALT+numpad function to get an ascii character is even still there! Who uses that? And why is it active with numlock off?!

Anyway, it's something that other programs manage to disable just fine, so I guess it's a failing of Photoshop as much as Windows. Not that it matters if you want to use those particular shortcuts, but it explains why I haven't noticed any before you pointed those out.

Soarer · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 20:37:15 »

Quote from: ripster;423065

Also PC games that use a lot of keys like flight sims. KPArrow and Arrow keys even get different mapping codes in CS.

Yes really.

That's really not the same thing though - you'd have the same problem of not having all the keys if you had a tenkeyless 'board.

This is starting to smell like you're trolling me, or trying to set this up to look like I'm trolling you. I'm simply disagreeing that it's LOTS, and quite happy to admit I'm wrong IF that's proved to be the case.

False_Dmitry_II · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 21:45:39 »

Hilariously even the keypad enter sends a different code for some reason. I played Red Faction: Guerrilla on the PC and if you try to use the numpad enter to pick options, like you would any other time, it does absolutely nothing. The regular one does though.

Soarer · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 21:58:38 »

Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;423107

Hilariously even the keypad enter sends a different code for some reason. I played Red Faction: Guerrilla on the PC and if you try to use the numpad enter to pick options, like you would any other time, it does absolutely nothing. The regular one does though.

Of course it does, it's a different key! Hilarious would be a keyboard without an enter in the main block :-p

hcry4 · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 21:59:30 »

Quote from: ripster;422998

Numpad arrow keys have different scan codes. Creates a mess with a LOT of program shortcuts - like Photoshop.

The Inverted T is DEC's best invention.
(Attachment Link) 27505[/ATTACH]

It's easier for me to use the HHKB to move windows.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 27512[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 27513[/ATTACH]

False_Dmitry_II · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 22:02:37 »

There is no need for it to be a different code, especially when it's clear that programmers have to apparently account for each or that would have never happened, when its function is entirely identical.

There is another example of a game called Sanctum (might be off, it's a word like that, too lazy to verify) which completely ignores the windows key. If you press it while the game is running absolutely nothing happens.

Soarer · « **Reply #27 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 22:16:51 »

Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;423118

There is no need for it to be a different code, especially when it's clear that programmers have to apparently account for each or that would have never happened, when its function is entirely identical.

That's not how it works... the different codes that come from the keyboard don't really have a function until the OS gives them one. Consider the difference between QWERTY and AZERTY layouts - the keyboard sends the same codes in each case, and it's the OS that translates them to different letters. In Windows, the two enters both translate to VK_RETURN, because that makes sense. But in games using DirectInput, that translation is bypassed (which also makes sense).

False_Dmitry_II · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 28 September 2011, 23:11:38 »

1. Then how do games using directinput tell the difference between qwerty and azerty?

2. I don't see how this is entirely relevant anyway because irregardless of the cause there still remains the fact that these things happen and conflicts are run into if a user attempts to use things on the numpad block. The thing with the enter key is the first and only time I have ever seen it not respond as expected. The original point was that an arrowkeyless (and home clusterless) keyboard would absolutely 100% positively have to send out the keycodes that the discreet keys use instead of the potentially troublesome ones that they currently do. Delving into the hows and whyfores of what is causing the issue of those scancodes to not work is academic.

Soarer · « **Reply #29 on:** Thu, 29 September 2011, 11:12:57 »

Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;423156

1. Then how do games using directinput tell the difference between qwerty and azerty?

Usually by going through extra steps to trigger the translation. But they only tend to do this when the user is typing text, or when they want to display something recognisable to represent a key. Other times the translation would get in the way - if the default movement keys are WASD on a US keyboard, it doesn't care that a FR keyboard has different legends.

Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;423156

2. I don't see how this is entirely relevant anyway because irregardless of the cause there still remains the fact that these things happen and conflicts are run into if a user attempts to use things on the numpad block. The thing with the enter key is the first and only time I have ever seen it not respond as expected. The original point was that an arrowkeyless (and home clusterless) keyboard would absolutely 100% positively have to send out the keycodes that the discreet keys use instead of the potentially troublesome ones that they currently do. Delving into the hows and whyfores of what is causing the issue of those scancodes to not work is academic.

Sorry to be blunt, but this is just FUD. I know from experience that these scancodes work perfectly well in practice, and the reality is that it is no more a problem than using a tenkeyless (less, probably, but there's not much point in trying to quantify that, it depends so much on what programs someone uses). I know this because I've been using them exclusively for years.

On Windows, anyway. Other OS, not so sure. I already said a modern take on the 84-key AT layout should be able to send the discrete key's codes. Heck, it could have as many modes as it wanted for the numpad!

I think if I were designing such a keyboard, it would have two keys instead of the double width insert, and three modes: standard numpad using standard codes, and two using the discrete keys' codes - one laid out the same as the numpad, and one laid out like the discrete keys.

But that doesn't detract from the fact that using an old 84-key AT keyboard on Windows today is perfectly viable as far the numpad cursors etc are concerned. (The lack of F11 and F12 is the real problem).

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Author Topic: Alternative to TKL? (Read 3928 times)