I need stronger keycaps! No, STRONGER!

[rootwyrm]

Okay, so now that every manufacturer is looking at my typing pattern and going "oh that's normal wear and tear" (it's not) or "that's excessive wear and tear on your part" (also false) I have absolutely freaking had it.

I need stronger keycaps. STRONGER. I cannot deal with this cycle of replacing keycaps every 6 months or less on Cherrys, and every 12 months on Model M's. That's how fast I am wearing these things out - I have actually worn through non-homerow keys on both. No, it's not abuse - I practically baby my keyboards. But I also, you know, use them. A lot. And that is accelerating. Somebody out there has got to know of seriously heavy duty keycaps out there. Or some sort of way to reduce the costs - 87 key sets every 6 months is just not sustainable.

[Djuzuh]

Learn to touchtype and buy blanks?

[megnin]

One word... zinc.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?28652-Order-Thread-Metal-(Zinc)-Keycas-Group-Buy-Round-2-!!-Starcraft-kit-Arrow-kit-etc

[rootwyrm]

Learn to touchtype and buy blanks?

Your trolling needs work, sir.

[rootwyrm]

One word... zinc.
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?28652-Order-Thread-Metal-(Zinc)-Keycas-Group-Buy-Round-2-!!-Starcraft-kit-Arrow-kit-etc

Oooooh. But only silver and gold. I am a sad panda. Know of any sources for that in black? Silver and gold keycaps, too distracting with my glasses - tried similar before.

[Djuzuh]

Your trolling needs work, sir.

I wasn't trolling.

EDIT: you can also buy sideprinted keys, like the filco ninja.

[IvanIvanovich]

Are you wearing power sanders for hands that spray acid or what? How are you wearing them out? Just a little shine, or wear off the pad print / lasering or like actually worn out as in I can see the stems now...
I have been using a set I got new of Cherry doubleshots daily for like 5 months and they don't even have a touch of shine on them yet. I use my computer anywhere from 6-14 hours a day typically, so I am far from a light user either.
Please be more specific, and post some pictures if at all possible of your worn out keycaps. If you know exactly, list which brands (or sources) you have tried that you have issue with so we might actually be able to suggest some alternative.

[Reptile]

Are you wearing power sanders for hands that spray acid or what? How are you wearing them out? Just a little shine, or wear off the pad print / lasering or like actually worn out as in I can see the stems now...
I have been using a set I got new of Cherry doubleshots daily for like 5 months and they don't even have a touch of shine on them yet. I use my computer anywhere from 6-14 hours a day typically, so I am far from a light user either.
Please be more specific, and post some pictures if at all possible of your worn out keycaps. If you know exactly, list which brands (or sources) you have tried that you have issue with so we might actually be able to suggest some alternative.

I also don't understand when I see threads like this.

OP maybe try to use some latex gloves to see if it is acid from your body or just your typing style.

[Djuzuh]

Pretty annoying to wear latex gloves everyday for more than a month

[rootwyrm]

Are you wearing power sanders for hands that spray acid or what? How are you wearing them out? Just a little shine, or wear off the pad print / lasering or like actually worn out as in I can see the stems now...
I have been using a set I got new of Cherry doubleshots daily for like 5 months and they don't even have a touch of shine on them yet. I use my computer anywhere from 6-14 hours a day typically, so I am far from a light user either.
Please be more specific, and post some pictures if at all possible of your worn out keycaps. If you know exactly, list which brands (or sources) you have tried that you have issue with so we might actually be able to suggest some alternative.

Hahaha, that would probably wear them less, actually. But no, it's not acids from my skin or anything like that. It's a problem of exceptionally high usage. Most keyboards are not designed for the kind of use pattern I subject them to, and without O-rings, I bottom out every Cherry there is. (Hell, I've been known to bottom out M's.) But mostly, it's just normal use. No. Really.

I don't think anyone was more frustrated and surprised than I was when I realized the set I was wearing through was doubleshots. I'm used to it with the Model M's - actuation force and all that, so I don't actually bother replacing those till they're REALLY trashed. But the doubleshots are just getting torn to hell too.

To figure out what the hell was going on, I grabbed a key-count logger. I run an average of 750 keystrokes every minute while working - around 130WPM. That's 45,000/hr, and well, extrapolate it from there. And it's a fairly constant rate. I type way, way more than I thought I ever did. By a lot. It also explains how I wear out keycaps so fast pretty well, I'd say. I almost never dip below 300 either. Meaning, well, pretty much I have no idea how it is I haven't worn out these MX Blacks. (Seriously - I have to be past 50M.) So yeah, I'm very slightly rough - well within engineering tolerances obviously - but just straight up wearing 'em out.

[IvanIvanovich]

Sure, but it would give some indication. For example, if someone does a lot of work with their hands, like construction which leads to rougher skin texture and has a fairly acidic body chemistry that does add significantly to wear. While I was joking with my power sanders that spray acid comment, it is also true in a non literal extent.

That's a lot of use, and to be blunt is in the realm of what a manufacture would put in the 'abuse' category. True you are not being abusive by just using it, but that is not always what 'abuse' means. In your particular case, it is just use above and beyond what they would anticipate from a 'normal' user. So yes, I can only suggest trying some of the zinc caps, and if you don't like the finish have them around to your local auto or chopper shop to be anodized or powder coated in something you prefer.

[Playtrumpet]

root, what's your job that requires such constant typing?

[dorkvader]

Learn to touchtype and buy blanks?

I'm pretty sure Rootwyrm added it up once and put something like 2*10^9 keystrokes into his model M.

Check it:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23843-Average-keystrokes-on-Model-M-s-%28or-any-Buckling-Spring%29&p=450603#post450603

That said, I'm somewhat surprised that the IBM/unicomp PBT wears out that fast for you. Clearly anything ABS will wear through much too fast for you. I'd say your only other option is getting metal keycaps, though I'm not sure if you'd be able to get some for IBM. There's not a whole lot of polymers that are viable for keycap production that also are more wear resistant than PBT.

[rootwyrm]

root, what's your job that requires such constant typing?

I'm one of the co-founders of a startup that does software development and also a professional writer. End result is that I run over 130WPM ~12-14 hours a day. Somewhat split between programming and writing, which is part of what gets the WPM so incredibly high. (Write code, document code. Write code, document code. Lather, rinse, repeat.) It's really not uncommon for me to churn out as much as 50K words in a day, especially these days. I'd say M-F I probably average somewhere around 60-70K.

Unfortunately, as lysol pointed out, certain body chemistry can exacerbate wear. (I don't have this issue thankfully.) But manufacturers in their race to the bottom have classified this as 'abuse.' Let me tell you something - a medical transcriptionist certainly isn't abusing their keyboard, and they probably do 100K words per day. Quality has most assuredly declined, despite the claims of improvement. Unfortunately, my usual powdercoating shop (shh. I'm into cars too, okay?) says that plated zinc is a big "probably not, but depends on the exact metallurgy and plating. So maybe. No promises."

The annoying thing with the IBM PBTs is that they develop initial wear (moderate grooving, <=1mm) very quickly - usually within 3-4 months at most, but then the wear slows significantly. When it picks back up again, it's rather abrupt. I'm having no luck finding metal for IBM or Alps either, even two-piece, and I was REALLY hoping to switch back to an Alps + 5250 combo. May be I should investigate coatings for PBT - might be some sort of shellac could slow down the wear.

Anyone messed around with Das Keyboard's blank caps enough to determine wear relative to say, WASD?

[sordna]

Can you post some photos? It would be especially interesting and helpful if you post photos of what you consider trashed PBT keycaps, as well as your trashed doubleshots.

[Findecanor]

Anyone messed around with Das Keyboard's blank caps enough to determine wear relative to say, WASD?

Das III (the current one) should theoretically be the same as WASD and Filco blank caps: Relatively thin ABS plastic.

Das II, which was practically a black Cherry G80-3000 with blank caps had caps made from POM, which should be slightly tougher than PBT. It is also more slick, which I think will translate to the key being more durable in practice.

Density of the plastics (approximate, different blends may wary): ABS: 1.0, PBT: 1.3, POM: 1.4 g/cm³.

BTW, have you tried Cherry's thick PBT keys? I think, however, that the thickness is mostly in the side walls -- not so much in the top or stem.

Disclaimer: I have never tried a Das III, but I have a black Cherry G80-3000.

[dorkvader]

Density of the plastics (approximate, different blends may wary): ABS: 1.0, PBT: 1.3, POM: 1.4 g/cm³.

Just out of curiosity, how does density translate into wear resistance?

See, rootwyrm is the reason we need ceramic keycaps. It'd take ages for those to wear.

Hmm, has anyone looked into getting the top half of an IBM 2-piece made from metal? I don't think it'd be TOO expensive (depending on the method and quantity. You'd only need one mold for most of the keys) I feel like that'd be awesome. I'd buy a bunch.

[sordna]

I don't think density says much. Lead is more dense than Titanium, but guess which of the two materials would wear faster.

[Human]

I'm one of the co-founders of a startup that does software development and also a professional writer. End result is that I run over 130WPM ~12-14 hours a day. Somewhat split between programming and writing, which is part of what gets the WPM so incredibly high. (Write code, document code. Write code, document code. Lather, rinse, repeat.) It's really not uncommon for me to churn out as much as 50K words in a day, especially these days. I'd say M-F I probably average somewhere around 60-70K.

Unfortunately, as lysol pointed out, certain body chemistry can exacerbate wear. (I don't have this issue thankfully.) But manufacturers in their race to the bottom have classified this as 'abuse.' Let me tell you something - a medical transcriptionist certainly isn't abusing their keyboard, and they probably do 100K words per day. Quality has most assuredly declined, despite the claims of improvement. Unfortunately, my usual powdercoating shop (shh. I'm into cars too, okay?) says that plated zinc is a big "probably not, but depends on the exact metallurgy and plating. So maybe. No promises."

The annoying thing with the IBM PBTs is that they develop initial wear (moderate grooving, <=1mm) very quickly - usually within 3-4 months at most, but then the wear slows significantly. When it picks back up again, it's rather abrupt. I'm having no luck finding metal for IBM or Alps either, even two-piece, and I was REALLY hoping to switch back to an Alps + 5250 combo. May be I should investigate coatings for PBT - might be some sort of shellac could slow down the wear.

Anyone messed around with Das Keyboard's blank caps enough to determine wear relative to say, WASD?

I just wonder, if you are that much a professional typist, you should had fully master the keyboard layout and can should be able to touch type fully. Then, what you need is just a durable keycaps, not durable fonts. Which then leave the option to blank PBT(ignore if it is still too "weak" for you), POM and Metal.

[dorkvader]

Hmm, Maybe I missed something, but I was under the impression that Rootwyrm is wearing through the keycaps completely, not just the legends.

Also, I'm tellin' you: ceramic is the way to go. I'm currently calculating if you can realistically sinter Al2O3 in an oven for under 24 hours (Maybe I'll just have to hack a toaster oven). Casting them should be relatively simple, though a decent binder (PAA or PMMA prabably) is a must.

[rootwyrm]

Hmm, Maybe I missed something, but I was under the impression that Rootwyrm is wearing through the keycaps completely, not just the legends.

Ding. I have a few complete wearthroughs over the years. Mostly it's grooving. Tried to get some pictures, but yeah, they didn't come out worth crap. Take a standard offset printed M double-shot though. Draw a line at the edge of the letter "M" horizontally and vertically. Mirror that. The resulting box in the center is where the wear is centered. You can still read 'em, but there's a deep groove. To but it in a bit more perspective - you know the raised bump on the F/J keys? It turns into a mountain. (Incredibly annoying when moving the index fingers to the bottom row for obvious reasons.)

Also, I'm tellin' you: ceramic is the way to go. I'm currently calculating if you can realistically sinter Al2O3 in an oven for under 24 hours (Maybe I'll just have to hack a toaster oven). Casting them should be relatively simple, though a decent binder (PAA or PMMA prabably) is a must.

Yeah, well, ceramic is also expensive and time consuming as hell for sturdy ones. That's the worst part - not just the cost, but all the time I spend having to rebuild Ms and do full keycap swaps. I haven't tried any POM keycaps as of yet, so that may be the next thing to try. I don't even care about the slickness as much as the freaking massive grooving. Maybe I should just fill the damn things in with spackle. ;P

[dorkvader]

Note: I prefer lines to nubs, and I also prefer cherry deepdish to either. If you pick up some nubless keycaps, it might help on the F/J at least.

[Lu_e]

How about just metal and get rid of the glare entirely by tumble finish or blasting? I believe you said you could to blank? or maybe not...

edit.. you want alps nm

[lightsout714]

We need some pics.

[NeeGo]

We need some pics.

+1 Post some pictures.

[hoggy]

Devlin make some thick keycaps.  You'll still get through them, but not quite as often.  http://www.devlin.co.uk/

If you moved to blanks, then you could replace the keys as they wear out, rather than replace the keyset.

Medical transcriptionists tend to use text expansion software - that might help take a few percentage points off your wear.  (About half of my 'typing' comes from text expansion and macros.)

[Findecanor]

Zink is quite soft. I think that deeply anodized aluminium would be the way to go. Sand-blast it rough to get both a nice texture and to increase the surface area for the anodizing process. The surface of anodized aluminium is very tough.
This is possible to get aluminium keys and to get them anodized, but very expensive for a complete keyboard.

[1391401]

I find it interesting to imagine such an elite typist wearing through keycaps... you should try and sell some of your worn out keycaps here... some folks might want that vintage worn look or appreciate a well weathered keyface

[dorkvader]

I'd love to see a picture, even a bad one. I really like the looks of items that have been greatly used. It's sort of a pragmatic aesthetic.

[Surly73]

Man, I dunno.  I have a model M recovered from a public utility.  It was made in 1993 and used in an office environment (possibly 24/7) for years before it spent a little time resting.  I dusted it off a couple of years ago and made it my daily driver at the office.  I'm not a programmer, but I type all day long.  This model M still looks nearly flawless, and I have to look really hard to find any signs of wear on the PBT.  Again, almost 20 years old and in commercial use - not babied.  I, like most people, bottom out my keystrokes all the time too.

You keep claiming "it's not abuse", "it's not me".  It *is* you.  That doesn't mean you're negligent, stupid, or second-class, but something is indeed different about you beyond simply how much you type.  As others have already requested, we'd like to see how you're wearing them out.  Just the legends, or right through the plastic?  Pics of ABS vs PBT wear too, please, I'm curious.  Assuming you're not just trolling, I would seriously consider going all PBT and go to blanks or engraved.  If you're wearing right through the PBT itself you have real issues.

You say the money spent on keysets is unreasonable.  I assume that as the founder of your business these keystrokes are actually earning you money, right?  It might not be all that unreasonable.  Also as someone pointed out, going totally blank means you just need to replace each key as they wear unacceptably.  I'm not sure if there's anywhere that makes it easy to order a variable # of each key row without having to order entire sets.  I'm sure someone in this thread knows.

[Exort]

If you are not just trolling check this page out.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.298849860182731.65932.241720585895659&type=1
It is made of aluminum and the top looks pretty thick, and good enough thickness for the side. In the comment, they said they can made a full set because it is done by computer numerical control(CNC).  They look perfect for you according to your description, specially the black one in the picture. Since it is done by CNC it is possible to do Buckle spring caps by custom orders.
Sadly those are not available yet. You can contact them and see if they can do a custom order for you, I personally is also interested for a full set of this caps, but I can wait.
Vertox keyboard are the designer for Poker, Pure, and Race.

I agree the quality have decline (sort of). Just look at the oil price and you should understand why. Plastic are made from oil.
For good quality and price you should go find OEM/ODM not the big name brand. Name brand are only doing re-branding and marketing these days. Rebrand/marketing company are Apple, Dell, HP, Filco, etc.
OEM/ODM are Costar(keyboard), Asus (circuit board), Global Foundry(die), LG(screens) etc.

[dorkvader]

Differences between OEM and branding are huge. It's "dell marketing" for a reason, now. They don't build the computers, and I'm not sure if they do much designing of them. Other companies (apple, fujitsu, etc) actually do the designing, and they are usually assembled elsewhere. (Although fujistu do same some components.)
---

Anyway, I seriously think that home making and casting metal IBM keycaps (the top of the two piece) should be relatively easy. The shape isn't that complex. The hardest part is getting the "overhang" right. but It would take little enough machining with a file to make it easily. I would give it a try, but I can't legally get anything hot enough in the apartment here to melt anything but woods metal, which is not recommended as it is toxic.

As always, the hardest part would be machining the mold, but there are some decent processes that exist. Ideally, you'd sinter a ceramic mold, but once again, it's hard to get enough heat. (700-1000 C minimum). Maybe I can talk to the art people about outdoor kilns.

[dorkvader]

Differences between OEM and branding are huge. It's "dell marketing" for a reason, now. They don't build the computers, and I'm not sure if they do much designing of them. Other companies (apple, fujitsu, etc) actually do the designing, and they are usually assembled elsewhere. (Although fujistu do same some components.)
---

Anyway, I seriously think that home making and casting metal IBM keycaps (the top of the two piece) should be relatively easy. The shape isn't that complex. The hardest part is getting the "overhang" right. but It would take little enough machining with a file to make it easily. I would give it a try, but I can't legally get anything hot enough in the apartment here to melt anything but woods metal, which is not recommended as it is toxic.

As always, the hardest part would be machining the mold, but there are some decent processes that exist. Ideally, you'd sinter a ceramic mold, but once again, it's hard to get enough heat. (700-1000 C minimum). Maybe I can talk to the art people about outdoor kilns.

[rootwyrm]

Been busy, so haven't had time to get back here for a few days. Tried to get some photos today, but honestly, they came out so crap it's impossible to see the wear pattern. I can't get the angle + lighting to work. Honestly, the best way to see exactly what the wear is like would be to put a piece of 2000+ grit sandpaper on your fingertip and bottom out the key say, 2000 times probably. You get a nasty divot as a result, worse if your finger is offset from center. Some folks like that, I happen to hate it. The fun one is K/D - I actually wear the edges off those.

Long short though; keycap wear is lessened if you don't full-travel the keys, AKA bottom out. Bottoming out as I do (which is due to nerve damage) adds to the wear, and there's not much that can be done about it. O-ring damping helps, but only so much, and only works on Cherry for obvious reasons. Unless somebody invented square O-rings I can put on Alps when I wasn't looking and/or a way to damp buckling spring more than lithium grease. The two prime wear factors just come down to fingers resting on the keycaps combined with the added wear from bottoming out. But that's true of any hard stop, and like I said, in my case it's unavoidable. Also, you can't compare my loading to office loading. One, most office keyboards see ~8 hours a day of intermittent use at probably between 80-100WPM. This is 130WPM+ for 16+ hours a day with few breaks.

And for the record, I don't troll about this stuff - this is pretty much how I make my living. Kinda important as a result, you know? Anyhow, I managed to get my hands on a POM set for an M two-piece. Going to give these a try and see how they work - I'm typing even more than usual, so they'll either show the wear quick or not. Unfortunately or fortunately, had to install them on my M5-2 in it's unrepaired state so I'm probably going to be harder on them than usual from the annoyance.

Will give photos another try when I can get a bit to tear down one of the Cherry's. Really want to get a good shot of the D/F/C keycaps - they're a set of unknown Cherry doubleshots and I've actually WORN INTO THE LETTERING. Seriously. If you take a fingernail over it, you can feel the letter. Need to figure out who made 'em so I can make sure I never get 'em again.

[sordna]

People have put o-rings on alps, the o-ring takes the rectangurar shape, no problem.
Here's a thread about it... post #13 has a photo of it too
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?25789-O-rings-thingy-for-ALPS

Anyway, if the main issue is cost, just keep your keycaps till they wear so much that they bend/break/fall off. Actually it would be rather cool to wear the keycaps to the point they are perforated!

[dorkvader]

Anyhow, I managed to get my hands on a POM set for an M two-piece.

I am very interested in these. Care to share where they came from?

[mkawa]

send a couple of your worst keycaps to ripster. i'll pay shipping. he can take pictures. i must see this carnage. i know a lot of pretty crazy hackers and none of them can do this.

[audioave10]

You could get in touch with TG3/Deck. They had been selling keycap sets and those are the strongest keycaps I've ever used. If they are for the LED's, even without them these can't be worn out. The font is unpopular here however.

[NotDavidM]

Go with the zinc, and photos or it didnt happen!

[rootwyrm]

I am very interested in these. Care to share where they came from?

Local shop had a busted M (it's unrepairable most likely - somebody managed to rip the PCB off through the case by the cable) that had what I would describe as "odd" keycaps. I'm presuming they're POM, because they fit the description and they're DEFINITELY not standard M keycaps. Flex is different, texture is different, the works. It was a true industrial M, too.

Which is of course why the hard to replace controller fried last night. Looks like bit rot, but, finding replacements for it are a pain.

Will probably be doing some real photoshoots with real cameras within the next couple of weeks, so if you all can be patient, there will be epic carnage. Thermaltake needs to stop making keyboards completely.

[BigBrother]

Local shop had a busted M (it's unrepairable most likely - somebody managed to rip the PCB off through the case by the cable) that had what I would describe as "odd" keycaps. I'm presuming they're POM, because they fit the description and they're DEFINITELY not standard M keycaps. Flex is different, texture is different, the works. It was a true industrial M, too.

Which is of course why the hard to replace controller fried last night. Looks like bit rot, but, finding replacements for it are a pain.

Will probably be doing some real photoshoots with real cameras within the next couple of weeks, so if you all can be patient, there will be epic carnage. Thermaltake needs to stop making keyboards completely.

"Somebody managed to rip the PCB through the case by the cable" is something I would like to see.

the lack of any photos  in this thread is disturbing. It doesn't take a professional photographer to take a somewhat clear photo with a simple point-and-shoot to get your point of 'keycap wear' across. If you have to, go outside and take the photo (natural lighting does better than most lightboxes or umbrella lamps).

[Techno Trousers]

Go with the zinc, and photos or it didnt happen!

I just came across this thread, and by now guessing we can assume this is officially debunked? After the free keycap shipping offer to get photos taken, there's not much more that can be done to get everyone some simple proof.

:deadhorse: