Author Topic: IBM Model M2  (Read 6737 times)

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Offline NamelessPFG

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IBM Model M2
« on: Thu, 17 January 2013, 01:51:55 »
I've got a few things to discuss about it:

-Where can I get some replacement buckling spring assemblies? A couple of the springs somehow got messed up just by putting the keycaps back on them. clickykeyboards.com has some as usual, but they appear to be meant for full-size Model Ms, not the smaller Model M2s. I'm not about to take the risk and find out the hard way that they won't fit, at least not without some confirmation here.

-The infamous capacitor issue is plaguing this one, but if people are willing to make Bluetooth PCBs for full-size Ms, what about M2s?

-As usual, there are a bunch of conductive membrane layers forming the matrix, but unlike a full-size M, it's flat, not curved. Would it be practical to modify the M2 into a full-NKRO board by replacing the membranes with a PCB along with the controller PCB?

Overall, I like the small footprint of the Model M2, and of course, the buckling-spring feel and durable keycaps. The only thing I don't like is what a pain in the ass it is to dismantle and then put back together with all the buckling-spring assemblies in place.

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: IBM Model M2
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 17 January 2013, 02:16:46 »
I'll go piece by piece since that'll be easier to understand. I hope.

I've got a few things to discuss about it:

-Where can I get some replacement buckling spring assemblies? A couple of the springs somehow got messed up just by putting the keycaps back on them. clickykeyboards.com has some as usual, but they appear to be meant for full-size Model Ms, not the smaller Model M2s. I'm not about to take the risk and find out the hard way that they won't fit, at least not without some confirmation here.

If the problem is the spring, use the chop-stick method and just replace the springs. (Somebody who has the link will be along shortly, I'm sure.) Have the keyboard tilted enough that the springs fall toward the top of the keyboard before installing the keycaps to minimize risk.

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-The infamous capacitor issue is plaguing this one, but if people are willing to make Bluetooth PCBs for full-size Ms, what about M2s?

The M2 has an entirely different PCB which is much, much smaller than the Model M. Simply put, it'd be a hell of a time fitting a controller and a battery in there. It's possible it could be done, but it'd need to be done from scratch as far as the PCB layout and battery planning.

Quote
-As usual, there are a bunch of conductive membrane layers forming the matrix, but unlike a full-size M, it's flat, not curved. Would it be practical to modify the M2 into a full-NKRO board by replacing the membranes with a PCB along with the controller PCB?

No, it would not. There isn't enough room for a thick PCB, and PCBs - even FR4 - have a low tolerance for metal hammers pounding on them day in and day out. The PCB would quickly wear out/through or crack, whereas a film matrix bends and flexes. Remember that this is a very violent mechanism.

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Overall, I like the small footprint of the Model M2, and of course, the buckling-spring feel and durable keycaps. The only thing I don't like is what a pain in the ass it is to dismantle and then put back together with all the buckling-spring assemblies in place.

Well, the good news is that you'll only have to do it once. Ever. A typical buckling spring keyboard is good for north of 2 billion keystrokes. Sure, you'll lose some of the resistance over time and use, but these things are incredibly difficult to kill. By the same token, once you fix one, it tends to stay fixed. Pretty much forever.
"I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.

Offline ch_123

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Re: IBM Model M2
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 17 January 2013, 04:05:26 »
-Where can I get some replacement buckling spring assemblies? A couple of the springs somehow got messed up just by putting the keycaps back on them. clickykeyboards.com has some as usual, but they appear to be meant for full-size Model Ms, not the smaller Model M2s. I'm not about to take the risk and find out the hard way that they won't fit, at least not without some confirmation here.

They're the same as the regular Model M ones.

Quote
-The infamous capacitor issue is plaguing this one, but if people are willing to make Bluetooth PCBs for full-size Ms, what about M2s?

There are guides around here for fixing the capacitors. As pointed out above, the M2 is a very tightly packed unit. You could fit a Teensy in, but you'd have fun dealing with the fact that the M2's controller interfaces by the membrane by having contacts on the underside which are pressed against contacts on the membrane... it's not a ribbon cable as with the Model F and older Model Ms.

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Overall, I like the small footprint of the Model M2, and of course, the buckling-spring feel and durable keycaps. The only thing I don't like is what a pain in the ass it is to dismantle and then put back together with all the buckling-spring assemblies in place.

Arguably it's much easier than a standard Model M, even leaving aside the riveting issues.

Quote
Well, the good news is that you'll only have to do it once. Ever. A typical buckling spring keyboard is good for north of 2 billion keystrokes.

More like 25 million, but sure.

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: IBM Model M2
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 17 January 2013, 05:25:51 »
More like 25 million, but sure.

No, it is most definitely not 25 million or 'half a Cherry.' If it was half a Cherry MX, there wouldn't be a single working M left.
I took a number of M's and my own logged keystrokes and extrapolated the data with a known value keyboard - specifically a 1988 Model M that had been in continuous use for a minimum 8 hours per day, 100WPM, since 1988. (I in fact, knew the person who used it, and bought it used from their employer.) It was used for medical transcription.
100WPM for 8 hours == 360,000 words == 2,160,000 (that's 2.16M) keystrokes per day.
Let's cut that to just 150,000 words - that's still 900,000 keystrokes a day. In other words, 25 million operations? Would not have lasted a year. Which works out to about 297,000,000 operations divide by 37 keys gives you 8,027,027 ops/key average. Which by the way, isn't an atypical use for a Model M. At all.
Now expand that to 10 years of continuous operation. That would give you a total of 2,970,000,000 operations (or 2.9 BILLION) with an individual key receiving an average of - let's round down to 8,027,000 for sake of argument - 80,270,000 operations per key. That's 80 million meaning that even accounting for unequal dispersion it is impossible that any given key did NOT receive well in excess of 50 million operations - notably, the space bar!. When I purchased it, the keycaps were worn to hell, but springs still functioned like new. 25M operations is hilarious sandbagging at it's best, and downright disingenuous at it's worst. I have a process control keyboard (3151 base, 1987) here which was used to run the same set of keys hundreds and hundreds of times a day. There's a bit of mush, the caps look awful from grime, but it still works flawlessly.

These things were purchased and used because they are virtually indestructible. Not because they are less reliable than the competing Cherry MX and not because they were cheaper. People bought IBM Model M's because they wanted a keyboard which was more reliable, and they were prepared to pay a premium to ensure no cheap foam-over-foil failures or abruptly faulty Cherry MX based keyboards. (Now you know why Black was popular back then.) These are designed to stand up to constant use and abuse in environments most people wouldn't dare - steel plants, iron plants, mining facilities, medical facilities, the list goes on. They get beat to crap, abused, and thrashed. And we're still buying them 20+ years later, cleaning 'em off, fixing a few minor spring breakages due to bad removal and bad capacitor choice, and what you will end up with is another keyboard that will last under those conditions for well over 10 years. I bought it in 1998. I used it until 2009sh? It never failed me.

So yes. 2 billion keystrokes out of a Model M keyboard is a very reasonable and predictable number. Individual components may fail, but within repair scope. Actually rendering it dead requires a great deal of work or bad luck.
"I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.

Offline ch_123

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Re: IBM Model M2
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 17 January 2013, 09:48:03 »
Well,  I'm just quoting the official specs - http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9231/subcatid/0/id/474453 http://web.archive.org/web/20021209152539/http://pckeyboard.com/ep104.html The M is prone to membrane trace failure,  they are nowhere near as durable as IBM's older designs,  but are pretty solid nonetheless.

The Cherry figures are odd,  it used to be the case that their tactile switches were rated for 20 million, then they were changed to 50 million without any change to the design,  which makes their figures rather dubious.

Offline NamelessPFG

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Re: IBM Model M2
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 17 January 2013, 14:22:32 »
If the problem is the spring, use the chop-stick method and just replace the springs. (Somebody who has the link will be along shortly, I'm sure.) Have the keyboard tilted enough that the springs fall toward the top of the keyboard before installing the keycaps to minimize risk.
The springs are indeed the only things that really need to be replaced here, not the plastic hammers they're attached to. I'm just not sure where to source replacements, or whether or not the M and M2 use different springs.

The M is prone to membrane trace failure,  they are nowhere near as durable as IBM's older designs,  but are pretty solid nonetheless.
Everyone here knows by now that the Model M is just a cost-reduced version of IBM's preceding boards. At least it's a cost reduction that didn't compromise that tactile feel I crave.

I still hope to own a Model F 122-key with a USB conversion at some point. Buckling springs, capacitive switching, AND NKRO!

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: IBM Model M2
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 17 January 2013, 15:39:03 »
Well,  I'm just quoting the official specs - http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9231/subcatid/0/id/474453 http://web.archive.org/web/20021209152539/http://pckeyboard.com/ep104.html The M is prone to membrane trace failure,  they are nowhere near as durable as IBM's older designs,  but are pretty solid nonetheless.

Unicomp made some changes - I'd say 25M operations before noticeable degradation is a fair number for them, yes. Total failure though? Nah.. they're good for at least 200M operations. Just quicker to get mushy. (Your mushy and my mushy are probably very different.)

Quote
The Cherry figures are odd,  it used to be the case that their tactile switches were rated for 20 million, then they were changed to 50 million without any change to the design,  which makes their figures rather dubious.

Cherry MX Blacks were always rated for 50M individual operations. Though I suspect the real number is closer to 25-30M for all of them.  I've never had a Cherry MX board last me more than a year without wearing out one or more switches. (I personally do crank out enough characters that I hit the high side of that in <180 days.)

Quote from: NamelessPFG
The springs are indeed the only things that really need to be replaced here, not the plastic hammers they're attached to. I'm just not sure where to source replacements, or whether or not the M and M2 use different springs.

Any Model M springs will do for any Model M. They're all the exact same. (Remember that the M was a lower cost answer to the F. So there's very high commonality.) Same for the strike plates.

Quote
Everyone here knows by now that the Model M is just a cost-reduced version of IBM's preceding boards. At least it's a cost reduction that didn't compromise that tactile feel I crave.

I still hope to own a Model F 122-key with a USB conversion at some point. Buckling springs, capacitive switching, AND NKRO!

Yeah, sadly the F's are much harder to find, repair and restore.  :(
"I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.

Offline wcass

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Re: IBM Model M2
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:39:54 »
i am working on a project to replace the bottom membrane with a thin PCB with diodes for NKRO, but it will have a steel back plate which i hope will prevent early PCB failure.

you can get hammer/springs direct from Unicomp. if you only need a few, many of the members here would just give you that.