shouldn't Ergodox be more ergonomic shape-wise?

[FinancialWar]

It looks to me that the Ergodox is a mere copy of the Kinesis advantage, but without the ergonomic shape design.

If I were the designer of the ergodox, I would have made each half shape like Razer Nostromo, because Ergodox does not look any more comfortable than a normal keyboard, all it adds is the extra utilisation of the thumbs.

[Shikarikato]

It looks to me that the Ergodox is a mere copy of the Kinesis advantage, but without the ergonomic shape design.

If I were the designer of the ergodox, I would have made each half shape like Razer Nostromo, because Ergodox does not look any more comfortable than a normal keyboard, all it adds is the extra utilisation of the thumbs.

I thought the point is that a lot of people type with the elbows bent and their wrists crooked while typing on a normal keyboard, so since you can move the ergodox wherever you feel like it would sit properly and you can tent it.
*doesn'townonespeakingfromopinion*
Or are we going to have another troll post?

[FinancialWar]

The height elevation seem to the be same as a normal keyboard, so your hand will still have to be crooked while typing on the ergodox.

[Melvang]

The height elevation seem to the be same as a normal keyboard, so your hand will still have to be crooked while typing on the ergodox.

/queue wrist rest

[Oobly]

Ergodox has:
1. Vertically staggered colums instead of unevenly staggered horizontal rows = comfortable, natural "home row" position and even and consistent movement of fingers to other rows.
2. Separate left and right hand sections = allows for optimal splay, shoulder distance and tenting (raising the inner edges to obtain optimal pronation / supination angle)
3. Thumb keys = allows the strongest finger of each hand to do more work, relieving the weakest finger (pinkie) from the burden of keeping modifiers pressed, etc.
4. Layer keys on thumb keys = no need to move fingers from home row positions to get all the functionality of a normal board.

It's in a whole other league compared to "normal" keyboards in terms of ergonomics. Splay angle and tenting alleviates the wrist angle, so the height elevation is irrelevant.

Admittedly, the thumb key positions could be better (the outer ones are hard to reach and there could be inner ones further in from the existing ones). It would also be nice to have them angled, but that adds to the complexity and cost. I would also like the pinkie column to be dropped further to match natural finger stagger and positioning. It's not perfect, but it's the best that's out there right now. At least until AcidFire releases his Nexus project 

[FinancialWar]

So I suppose the Ergodox development is continuous? Will we likely to have to Ergodox 2 or something with better physical design in the future?

[jacobolus]

Please stop with the flame-bait. I know it’s useless to ask trolls to be nice, but a man can dream.

Anyway, if this were phrased in a more productive way, it would actually be a good question, unlike all the other threads you’ve started in the past week. So almost congratulations.

The Ergodox is better than typical keyboards in many ways, but it is clearly not perfect, and in particular the thumb key layout could definitely be improved. If you can propose an alternate design, and are willing to mock it up / prototype it (or convince someone else to), I’m sure folks would be receptive to improvements.

[FinancialWar]

what do you mean flame bait/troll.

This is geekhack, since when is question the utility of a keyboard of any type a flame bait?

[CatNip :3]

Anyway, if this were phrased in a more productive way, it would actually be a good question,

[tbc]

Please stop with the flame-bait. I know it’s useless to ask trolls to be nice, but a man can dream.

Anyway, if this were phrased in a more productive way, it would actually be a good question, unlike all the other threads you’ve started in the past week. So almost congratulations.

The Ergodox is better than typical keyboards in many ways, but it is clearly not perfect, and in particular the thumb key layout could definitely be improved. If you can propose an alternate design, and are willing to mock it up / prototype it (or convince someone else to), I’m sure folks would be receptive to improvements.

it's okay.  you don't need the op's permission to change a bad topic into a good one.

personally, i think from the pics, acidfire's design is spectacular.  is this pretty unanimous?

[FinancialWar]

If you can propose an alternate design, and are willing to mock it up / prototype it (or convince someone else to), I’m sure folks would be receptive to improvements.

Ergodox is essentially still flat in design. It should at least be curved in shape, or have a palm rest like the Nostromo.

[Polymer]

The height elevation seem to the be same as a normal keyboard, so your hand will still have to be crooked while typing on the ergodox.

You can tent them as well as turn them which means your wrists don't need to be crooked..I think that is the main part you're missing...

So the ergonomic boards you see and the position it puts your hands can be done w/ the Ergodox...

On the plus side for the kinesis, I think it has some benefits as far as distance your fingers travel...on the downside, it has a set distance between your hands..whereas the Ergodox can basically be moved however you want..

[lcs]

Please stop with the flame-bait. I know it’s useless to ask trolls to be nice, but a man can dream.

Anyway, if this were phrased in a more productive way, it would actually be a good question, unlike all the other threads you’ve started in the past week. So almost congratulations.

The Ergodox is better than typical keyboards in many ways, but it is clearly not perfect, and in particular the thumb key layout could definitely be improved. If you can propose an alternate design, and are willing to mock it up / prototype it (or convince someone else to), I’m sure folks would be receptive to improvements.

it's okay.  you don't need the op's permission to change a bad topic into a good one.

personally, i think from the pics, acidfire's design is spectacular.  is this pretty unanimous?

Yes, we all want a Nexus

[Findecanor]

Ergodox is essentially still flat in design. It should at least be curved in shape, or have a palm rest like the Nostromo.

It would have been more difficult to engineer the ErgoDox to be curved like the Kinesis. I have tried and could not find a good, affordable way to do it for a DIY keyboard. Kinesis' key wells (like a plate) are injection moulded plastic, which requires an expensive mould to be made, with the cost divided over a large amount of keyboards. It also has an unusual curved PCB behind the switches.
With ErgoDox, all you need is basically an ordinary PCB with the components on it - the plate is actually optional (or rather, it was supposed to be).

One thing I think improves the ErgoDox, making it only slightly more curved, is to use Cherry profile keycaps for the main keys and OEM profile keycaps for the pinky columns, the OEM keycaps  being about 1 1/2 mm higher.

There are ErgoDox'es with integrated palm rests. Some kits through Massdrop, others that people have built themselves. There is at least one guy that has broken off the thumb keys to put them at an angle, more like the Nostromo.
It is a DIY keyboard, and it is an open design. It itself was based on the Key64, and it has inspired several others.

BTW. Kinesis has been known to sell separate replacement key wells. Maybe you could build your own based on them. You would still have to provide the thumb keys, etc.

[Melvang]

Ergodox is essentially still flat in design. It should at least be curved in shape, or have a palm rest like the Nostromo.

It would have been more difficult to engineer the ErgoDox to be curved like the Kinesis. I have tried and could not find a good, affordable way to do it for a DIY keyboard. Kinesis' key wells (like a plate) are injection moulded plastic, which requires an expensive mould to be made, with the cost divided over a large amount of keyboards. It also has an unusual curved PCB behind the switches.
With ErgoDox, all you need is basically an ordinary PCB with the components on it - the plate is actually optional (or rather, it was supposed to be).

One thing I think improves the ErgoDox, making it only slightly more curved, is to use Cherry profile keycaps for the main keys and OEM profile keycaps for the pinky columns, the OEM keycaps  being about 1 1/2 mm higher.

There are ErgoDox'es with integrated palm rests. Some kits through Massdrop, others that people have built themselves. There is at least one guy that has broken off the thumb keys to put them at an angle, more like the Nostromo.
It is a DIY keyboard, and it is an open design. It itself was based on the Key64, and it has inspired several others.

BTW. Kinesis has been known to sell separate replacement key wells. Maybe you could build your own based on them. You would still have to provide the thumb keys, etc.

I would have to vouch for the parts that are expensive.  Curved PCB's get crazy expensive to manufacture, a lot of the reason is there are not very many places that can do them.  And as far as new molds, the mold for SP's center stemmed caps lock cost around $3,000 if I remember right.

[daerid]

Shouldn't this be in the Ergonomic forum?

[steve.v]

It looks to me that the Ergodox is a mere copy of the Kinesis advantage, but without the ergonomic shape design.

If I were the designer of the ergodox, I would have made each half shape like Razer Nostromo, because Ergodox does not look any more comfortable than a normal keyboard, all it adds is the extra utilisation of the thumbs.

What's to prevent you from doing so? The project is open-source, feel free to make changes for yourself.

[FinancialWar]

Shouldn't this be in the Ergonomic forum?

Do you have pictures link to your keyboards?

[daerid]

Shouldn't this be in the Ergonomic forum?

Do you have pictures link to your keyboards?

I much prefer the tented classic with the ErgoDock than the full hand flat. Either is preferable to a standard qwerty board though

[FinancialWar]

how much would you say a reasonable market value of your first Ergodox would be worth?

I just want to buy a one already made with palm rest.

[daerid]

Prolly just shy of $300 or so. Depends on how much somebody wants to charge for assembly (mine aren't for sale).

Granted, that's using MassDrop pricing ($199 for the kit, $45 ish for caps, plus assembly).

[Oobly]

Shouldn't this be in the Ergonomic forum?

Do you have pictures link to your keyboards?

Show Image

Show Image

I much prefer the tented classic with the ErgoDock than the full hand flat. Either is preferable to a standard qwerty board though

Kurplop does good work, always nice to see the ErgoDock.

Tenting makes a big difference IME and I discovered after using my DIY board for a while that a palm rest is important to have for a tented design. It's just too far to the desk surface otherwise.

My thumbs feel rather awkward on a tented flat design, though. They're raised up too high. Angled thumb clusters are important to me. The Nexus looks like it'll be a big hit. Most ergonomic design currently in development. I prefer it to the Maltron and Kinesis Advantage due to the thumb key angle (pressing towards the fingers rather than downwards). Curved keywells would be nice, but I find the "flat" keys with contoured keycaps to be good enough once you set the splay and tenting angles properly.

Both ErgoDox and Nexus have more keys than I consider necessary, but that's just a matter of personal taste. I like to put things on layers and keep my fingers on the home row keys, so I can keep them oriented without looking.

[vivalarevolución]

So I suppose the Ergodox development is continuous? Will we likely to have to Ergodox 2 or something with better physical design in the future?

The development of anything humans create is continuous:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0

[FinancialWar]

So I suppose the Ergodox development is continuous? Will we likely to have to Ergodox 2 or something with better physical design in the future?

The development of anything humans create is continuous:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0

You know that's not true.

Human are stupid and obstinate creatures.

[vivalarevolución]

So I suppose the Ergodox development is continuous? Will we likely to have to Ergodox 2 or something with better physical design in the future?

The development of anything humans create is continuous:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0

You know that's not true.

Human are stupid and obstinate creatures.

Most are that way.  But some of us like to tinker and create, and they are the ones that give us the Ergodox and its relatives.

[Melvang]

And then there are people that question great accomplishments.

[FinancialWar]

man, if the ergodox is actually pre-assembled with Filco-like built quality, palm rest and back lights and cost less than $150, then I'd would actually be interested.

[daerid]

Good luck with that.

[Melvang]

man, if the ergodox is actually pre-assembled with Filco-like built quality, palm rest and back lights and cost less than $150, then I'd would actually be interested.

It isn't that hard to solder in some switches.  I can't see it being that difficult to add LEDs, or EL mat.  I have added my HDD activity LED to the Esc key on my Das.  Hardest part of that was getting into the keyboard itself.

[FinancialWar]

So cap lock & NumLock LED is included?

[Melvang]

Not sure but do you really need the LEDs to let you know the capslock is on?  How often do you actually use caps lock?  And numbers are on top row or in a function layer along with arrows so no real need for num lock in my opinion but I don't type for a living.

[FinancialWar]

Yeah, but I thought that you can program any type of layout with the Ergodox, I assign a button as a NumLock button that would turn one side of the Ergodox into a numpad.

Numpad is important for my line of work.

And yes, I need to have the Numlock and Caplock LEDs, it's something I'm used to and something I can't live without.

[Melvang]

It shouldn't be to difficult to implement but I'm not sure if this keyboard supports that out of the box.

[jacobolus]

Sure, that's trivial to add with any of the common kinds of firmware used on the Ergodox.

Note: using the Ergodox pretty much requires creating a custom layout, and everyone’s is going to be different. Fortunately, it’s not too hard to figure out.

[daerid]

Numlock works like it does on any other board: toggles between numpad key codes and non numpad codes (such as home end ins etc..)

And caps, scroll, and Numlock LEDS are supported out of the box.

However it doesn't magically turn one side into a numpad, you would have to program that into one of the layers.

[Thanatermesis]

I was personally trying to make a "kinesis advantage shape" copy on my ergodox, as you can see on this video: 

But I got tired after a painfull week of work and finally decided for a mostly flat version, with some shape for the hardest keys, the result seems to very really nice, but i have not tried it for real yet, i need to set up a good firmware, as you can see on this other video: