Author Topic: So many switches... so many colours...  (Read 20350 times)

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Offline wellington1869

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So many switches... so many colours...
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 30 October 2008, 11:37:34 »
Quote from: wellington1869;9960
well, I can confirm the above information for you soon as I receive my digikey package in a couple of days :) They just emailed that it shipped...

Ok, just got the package, and unless its a packaging error there is at least one thing wrong in my/our assumptions. Like others I assumed the descriptoin "soft tactile feel" for the ch310-nd referred to BROWN switches. It apparently does not, I received WHITE!  The other assumptions are correct: "Linear feel" (as described in the digikey catalog) did arrive as a BLACK, and "Click Tactile Feel" arrived as BLUE.
 
I wish they would just make the color part of the naming process...
 
So the corrected digikey part numbers are:
(these are for pcb mount (ie, tabs visible/accessible)
black mx: ch160-nd (cherry part number MX1A-11NW)
blue mx: ch197-nd (cherry part number MX1A-E1NW)
white, not brown mx: ch310-nd (cherry part number MX1A-C1NW)
 
[So maybe the browns ARE mx1a-G1nw, and apparently digikey does not carry them]
 

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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yet another assessment of cherry colors...
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 30 October 2008, 11:58:00 »
Ok, with this digikey package I now have in my possession all of the below:
 
Cherry blue: just as others have described, a perennial favorite and its easy to see why. Fairly light touch with bump (resistance that 'gives way'), and a soft audible click. Click is much softer than buckling spring, though if you type fast, in combination with bottoming out the keys you could still raise a bit of a racket if you wanted to. Light touch, easy to bottom out. They seem as light as the browns, only with an audible click. [update: lighter than the browns, and with a soft click. I'm torn between these and the browns. I'll likely keep both boards in the house]
 
(Old style cherry white: clicky, tactile, barely distinguishable from blue, but there are some differences in the internals) [update: after typing with them somewhere I'd say they are just a little clickier and have a tiny bit more bump and resistance than the blues]
 
cherry brown: I became a fan of these for about a week. They are as everyone describes, bump, no audible click (tho a clack if you bottom out), fairly light touch. The browns are comfortable and fairly quiet for a cubicle. Easy to bottom out, which after a while (since I pound the keys) took its toll on my fingers. Kind of like "runner's knee", I was at risk of developing "typer's knuckle"! If you have a light touch you may like these a lot. [update: after some use of other boards I've returned to these as a favorite. I'm torn between these and the blues]
 
cherry black: no bump, no audio, fairly light touch. They are described as "linear" resistance but in actual practice I'd call them "progressive" resistance. Okay, I don't know why everyone dumps on these on this forum, other than that mechanical switch purists obviously have a clear bias in favor of audible clicks. The blacks suit my typing style quite well as far as I can see. The tactile bumps on the other cherry switches are hardly noticed anyway when you type fast, and the audible clacks only annoy the cubicle neighbors. In the blacks you have mechanical smoothness and springy fluidity, I rather like them, and they let me pound on the keys at will. If the browns are a quick run, the blacks are a refreshing swim. Smoooooooth. [update: after some use, I did wind up finding the resistance a little bit tiring. I went back to the browns]
 
("New" cherry white: bump, but no audio, like the browns -- but compared to browns then, I dont know if the bump is more pronounced, but the spring does seem stiffer, no question. On these I might actually tire out my fingers after a while. Especially my pinky. But it seems to me these were perhaps made for special keys like the spacebar where they sometimes install the stiffer springs, or maybe for specialized application in point-of-sale industrial keyboards. At least thats what I'd assume after using them!)
 
So my favorites right now are the blacks, with the browns a close second. I hope thats not sacrilege ;) [update: after using various cherry boards for a while: like nearly everyone else on these boards, my favorites are now browns and blues :) ]

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Bodibo

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So many switches... so many colours...
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 30 October 2008, 12:43:14 »
So this was the PDF page I was referring to:



I think the Cherry browns are MX1A-G1.

I also think that digi-key do sell them, but they don't stock them and so the minimum order is 250 (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=MX1AG1DW-ND)

This place also sells them in whatever quantity you want, if you can wait 8 weeks....

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #53 on: Thu, 30 October 2008, 12:47:45 »
Good to know, thanks bodibo

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #54 on: Mon, 03 November 2008, 10:55:00 »
Quote
They are described as "linear" resistance but in actual practice I'd call them "progressive" resistance.

Quoting myself:

Quote from: lowpoly;8581
The more you press a spring together the more force you need. But if you draw a way/force graph it will be perfectly linear (meaning longer way equals to higher force). Linear does not mean that you have to use the same force anywhere on the key's way down. That would be against the nature of spring physics.

Force = spring stiffness x way (spring stiffness is a constant, thus it's a linear dependency).

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Offline dougy

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« Reply #55 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 06:24:26 »
What is a Cherry brown anyway? Was looking for switch specs and went to Cherry (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm). There is no brown keystem listed, or is the brown not an MX switch?

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #56 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 07:35:58 »
You might want to look for the "tea" switch.  I believe that is the offcial color name.


Offline iMav

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So many switches... so many colours...
« Reply #57 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 09:21:57 »
The reason many people "dump" on the black cherries is because they are not tactile (that "bump" in other Cherry keyswitches is the tactile feedback that the key has been actuated).  Without tactile feedback, you are more likely to bottom out at full force, causing unnecessary trauma to your fingers/hands.

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #58 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 09:58:53 »
Quote from: iMav;11459
The reason many people "dump" on the black cherries is because they are not tactile (that "bump" in other Cherry keyswitches is the tactile feedback that the key has been actuated).  Without tactile feedback, you are more likely to bottom out at full force, causing unnecessary trauma to your fingers/hands.


I am still adjusting to the cherry browns, the keys are very light to me and seem to actuate fairly close to the top. I need to control my fingers when I type on this board as it is very light. I find myself bottoming out very easily.
I suppose the cherry brown can be said to be tactile, though in now way does it compare to the BS or the topre.
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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #59 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 10:15:27 »
I sounds like the Cherry browns are a lot like the Alps blacks.  I can see where it would be hard to get used to at first as the amount of tactility is much less than their more clicky counterparts; even more so when transitioning from a Model M.


Offline dougy

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« Reply #60 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 10:20:07 »
Quote from: itlnstln;11432
You might want to look for the "tea" switch.  I believe that is the offcial color name.
The colors listed on the Cherry website for the MX are: black, grey, clear, blue and green. The clear ones are "Momentary, single-pole, tactile feel, 2.3 oz., clear keystem", the grey ones "Momentary, single-pole, tactile feel, 2.8 oz., spacebar, grey 39 keystem" while the blues are "Momentary, single-pole, tactile feel, 2.1 oz., "click" differential movement, blue keystem". So which ones are considered the brown?

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #61 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 10:28:30 »
The brown MX are not listed. The "clear" are white stem "soft tactile" based on the C in the part number.

Offline dougy

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« Reply #62 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 10:34:30 »
Cute, I just got an email back from Cherry, the switch is MX1A-G1NW, not listed on their site at all. Google doesn't give any english language results except Cherry. Cherry's distributor stock says the part doesn't exist. arrrrrg. I'm looking for 22 of these things, anyone have any ideas?

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #63 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 10:51:39 »
I was just going to email Cherry about this. Thanks for confirming the part number. You could get a Compaq MX 11800 quite cheap for the switches, although they will probably be broken in.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #64 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 10:55:20 »
I think harvesting parts from old keyboards has generally ended up being the easiest, cheapest, and least stressful solution offered when dealing with finding parts.  Trying to source new ones seems to end up in frustration, pain and suffering.


Offline dougy

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« Reply #65 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 12:32:53 »
Quote from: itlnstln;11482
I think harvesting parts from old keyboards has generally ended up being the easiest, cheapest, and least stressful solution offered when dealing with finding parts.  Trying to source new ones seems to end up in frustration, pain and suffering.
Thanks, I'll try the harvest from old as the best bet. And there is a goofy looking Compaq MX 11800 on ebay just now. But, how do I know if it uses metal plate mounting, or pcb mounting?

Offline xyzzy

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So many switches... so many colours...
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 12:45:26 »
Quote from: dougy;11494
Thanks, I'll try the harvest from old as the best bet. And there is a goofy looking Compaq MX 11800 on ebay just now. But, how do I know if it uses metal plate mounting, or pcb mounting?


AFAIK, all Compaq MX 11800 and Cherry G80-11900 use PCB mounting, therefore the switches are easy to replace.

IBM Model F62 (Ellipse's) • PFU HHKB Pro Type S Hybrid • PFU HHKB Pro • Leopold FC660C • IBM Model M SSK 1391472 • IBM Model M SSK UNI04C6 • IBM Model M 1391405 (x4) • Cherry MX 1800 Compact (blue Cherry) • Cherry MX 11900 Touchboard (brown Cherry) • Dell AT102W (black Alps) • Apple Extended Keyboard II (cream Alps) • Acer 6312-TA (black Acer) • Unikey KWD-601 (white Cherry)

Offline dougy

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« Reply #67 on: Mon, 17 November 2008, 18:16:52 »
Quote from: xyzzy;11495
AFAIK, all Compaq MX 11800 and Cherry G80-11900 use PCB mounting, therefore the switches are easy to replace.
Great, I'll try and snag the one on ebay now.
Thanks all.

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #68 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 11:29:48 »
Quote from: wellington1869;10043
("New" cherry white: bump, but no audio, like the browns -- but compared to browns then, I dont know if the bump is more pronounced, but the spring does seem stiffer, no question.

Are these the white MX you got from Digikey? I'm wondering how these might feel with springs from the browns. I want a more tactile version of the brown without a click.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #69 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 11:46:32 »
Quote from: Chloe;11684
Are these the white MX you got from Digikey? I'm wondering how these might feel with springs from the browns. I want a more tactile version of the brown without a click.


hey chloe, yes the ones I got from digikey are the "new" ones that are silent.  I've thought a lot about swapping springs and stems between cherries since of course I'm not entirely happy with any of the standard models (there's always room for tweaking :) )

I suppose you could try brown springs in these. I suppose the result would be a bigger bump and lighter resistance.

For my part I thought about linear (blacks) with springs between blacks (too stiff) and browns (too light). (So maybe with springs from the whites or blues). Some day I'll do that experiment too. ;)


Its easy to sample the switches, just order one of each from digikey. Its inexpensive and puts them in your hands so you can decide what combo you like before spending big bucks.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #70 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 12:14:21 »
Thanks. :) I found some info on the springs which might be useful:
http://sandy55.fc2web.com/still_crazy/0401.html#0923%20%20Cherry%20MX%20Switch

Quote from: wellington1869
there's always room for tweaking


Absolutely.

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #71 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 12:26:42 »
Quote from: wellington1869;11692
Its easy to sample the switches, just order one of each from digikey. Its inexpensive and puts them in your hands so you can decide what combo you like before spending big bucks.


How much was the shipping for you? I just found this on the UK site, I think this is excessive:

Quote from:
A shipping charge of £12.00 will be billed on all orders of less than £50.00.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #72 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 12:34:40 »
Quote from: Chloe;11701
How much was the shipping for you? I just found this on the UK site, I think this is excessive:


wow, thats excessive for shipping (thats about $24!!! just for shipping?). (also: digikey has a uk store?!).  
It might actually be cheaper for you to order from US digikey store and ship to UK.  For me, within continental US shipping price PLUS 4 keys came out to about $6. (Hence I said it was cheap to try them!). (Each key was about $1, so shipping on all four was about $2 total).

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #73 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 13:04:36 »
It looks like they have stores all over the world.

Quote from: wellington1869
It might actually be cheaper for you to order from US digikey store and ship to UK.


Shipping to the UK is even more from the US store. Farnell also have them but they're US stock so the shipping will be £15.95. :(

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #74 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 13:54:34 »
Quote from: Chloe;11708
It looks like they have stores all over the world.



Shipping to the UK is even more from the US store. Farnell also have them but they're US stock so the shipping will be £15.95. :(



are you sure this is for single keys (and not for a roll of 1000 or something)?  It seems unecessarily excessive. My four keys came in a regular envelope with just 2 stamps on it.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #75 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 14:18:33 »
Quote from: wellington1869;11692
hey chloe, yes the ones I got from digikey are the "new" ones that are silent.  I've thought a lot about swapping springs and stems between cherries since of course I'm not entirely happy with any of the standard models (there's always room for tweaking :) )

I suppose you could try brown springs in these. I suppose the result would be a bigger bump and lighter resistance.

For my part I thought about linear (blacks) with springs between blacks (too stiff) and browns (too light). (So maybe with springs from the whites or blues). Some day I'll do that experiment too. ;)


Its easy to sample the switches, just order one of each from digikey. Its inexpensive and puts them in your hands so you can decide what combo you like before spending big bucks.


I don't think you can get a change in tactility just by switching out the springs themselves.  Changing out the springs would change how stiff or loose the switch is, but the stem controls the any bump or click.  Check out the switch secton:

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm


Offline Chloe

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« Reply #76 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 14:20:25 »
They're 66p each ex-VAT. The £15.95 is because it's US stock.

Offline bhtooefr

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So many switches... so many colours...
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 14:24:09 »
You'd probably come out ahead ordering them, having them shipped to a US address, and having someone ship them to you. :eek:

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #78 on: Tue, 18 November 2008, 16:34:57 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;11715
You'd probably come out ahead ordering them, having them shipped to a US address, and having someone ship them to you. :eek:


let me know if you want to do that chloe. It'll take an extra few days but I could put them in the mail for you from nyc.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #79 on: Wed, 19 November 2008, 14:48:45 »
Thanks wellington, it's kind of you to offer. :) I'm thinking of getting three of each switch (blue, black and white) so I can see how it feels to type. I need to check the springs link again, I'm not sure if it's worth getting grey and green to experiment with.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #80 on: Wed, 19 November 2008, 15:03:39 »
Quote from: Chloe;11778
Thanks wellington, it's kind of you to offer. :) I'm thinking of getting three of each switch (blue, black and white) so I can see how it feels to type. I need to check the springs link again, I'm not sure if it's worth getting grey and green to experiment with.


No prob. PM me whenever you're ready and we can go over the plan.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #81 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 06:48:09 »
Quote from: dougy;11475
Cute, I just got an email back from Cherry, the switch is MX1A-G1NW, not listed on their site at all.

RS stock some "tactile feel" switches that aren't listed on the Cherry site either. The part number is MX1A-A1NN, they're white stem according to this datasheet:
http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0146/0900766b8014611b.pdf

The operating force is 80cN, same as their spacebar switches.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #82 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 06:58:09 »
Quote from: Chloe;11992
RS stock some "tactile feel" switches that aren't listed on the Cherry site either. The part number is MX1A-A1NN. I've no idea what colour stem these are.



I dont understand why cherry doesnt make the stem color a part of the switch name. It would make life easier for everyone.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #83 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 07:07:59 »
It might, but some switches have the same stem colour.

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #84 on: Sun, 23 November 2008, 09:02:03 »
X-keys sell brown MX, $9.95 for a pack of ten:
http://www.xkeys.com/access.php

They also have keycaps that fit:
http://www.xkeys.com/accessories/keycaps.php

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #85 on: Sun, 23 November 2008, 12:50:33 »

Offline djones

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« Reply #86 on: Sun, 23 November 2008, 14:50:33 »
Quote from: Chloe;12168
X-keys sell brown MX, $9.95 for a pack of ten:
http://www.xkeys.com/access.php

They also have keycaps that fit:
http://www.xkeys.com/accessories/keycaps.php

it's times like these that I wish I new something about electronics, so I could fix/build keyboards. unfortunately I majored in math during college, meaning I can't tell apart a transistor from a diode from a duck.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #87 on: Sun, 23 November 2008, 15:00:53 »
Quote from: djones;12188
it's times like these that I wish I new something about electronics, so I could fix/build keyboards. unfortunately I majored in math during college, meaning I can't tell apart a transistor from a diode from a duck.


ducks quack ;)

Its ok, I majored in EE but I've been in the humanities for the last decade and wouldnt trust myself with a circuit diagram anymore.  Its a pretty specialized skill if you want to mod the electronics themselves.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #88 on: Sun, 23 November 2008, 15:01:08 »
If you're only replacing switches, you just need to learn how to solder. :)