Opinions on Topre Realforce and Leopold FC660C

[spiceBar]

I'm pretty sure some (many! ) of you own both the Topre Realforce TKL (model 87UB, 87UW, 88UB for example) and the Leopold FC660C.

I own a 88UB but I have never been able to try the FC660C. I think the FC660C could be the right board for me to switch back to ANSI US (QWERTY) from ISO FR (AZERTY). I have not been using it for years, but ANSI US looks so much more natural for programming...

As we have already seen so often, even the same switch type can feel different in two different keyboards models, even when they come from the same manufacturer. There are so many parameters, like the thickness of the keycaps, of the metal plate, of the case, how the thing is built...

I do like the Realforce. But I'm in love with the 60% format so I don't use my 88UB all the time. However every time I come back to it, something happens. Just the other day I had a bunch of commands to type under Linux to set up a Brother printer, and after a while it struck me how I could have kept typing on it just for fun. When you try to consciously evaluate a keyboard you cannot be really objective about it. But when a typing session just feels fun, I think it's very telling.

I'm not trying to hype the Topre switches here, we already know it's a matter of taste. They just seem to work well with my typing style. It's more about the springiness or how the pressure is distributed during the keystroke than about the sound I think, but I cannot even tell.
 
So I'm really wondering if the switches in the FC660C feel the same as the in the Realforce. If they don't feel/sound too different, I think I'm going to look for a way to get a FC660C.

I'm very interested in your opinions. Thank you in advance.

[therecorder]

Worth reading through the 7 pages...

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42825.msg868512#msg868512

[Sniping]

HHKB and Realforce made a baby, they call it the 660C. I hear the 660C thocks more than the Realforce, even though they're both plate mounted.

[rowdy]

And the HHKB thocks more than both!

[spiceBar]

Worth reading through the 7 pages...

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42825.msg868512#msg868512

Yes, thank you. I had started reading it but did not finish. I went back to read it all. I have found a few nuggets of info there, but I'm still not 100% sure.

Anyway, EK will receive a new batch of FC660C on the 20th (they are currently out of stock), so I have 4 days left to make a decision.

[rowdy]

^ Decide quickly - judging by the overwhelmingly positive reviews of the FC660C I suspect they will not last long in stock.

[spiceBar]

^ Decide quickly - judging by the overwhelmingly positive reviews of the FC660C I suspect they will not last long in stock.

You are right, and I do not see any other company selling it.

[insilica]

The FC660C is a great keyboard!

Personally I prefer my 87u TypeS but I guess this mainly stems from it's variable layout. Between a uniform 87u and FC660C I think I would prefer the the FC660C but I guess it is all a matter of preference.

[Hypersphere]

I have the Leopold FC660C, but I do not have a Realforce. and I have never tried one. Using the FC660C convinced me that I like its Topre switches better than any of the many Cherry-switch boards I have tried (brown, blue, green, white), better than Matias switches, and almost as much as IBM buckling springs. However, I have heard that Realforce boards are of higher quality than the FC660C. Certainly, the keycaps on the white/gray HHKB Pro 2 and RF 87U are much nicer than the keycaps on the FC660C.

Therefore, at the moment, I am thinking that I ought to try the HHKB Pro 2 and RF 87U, although I already know I probably won't like the layout of the HHKB Pro 2 and the RF 87U layout is the same as that of my IBM SSK. Although I like the idea of a 60% form factor, I think I need a 60+% form factor with dedicated arrow keys, like that of the FC660C. For me, the ideal board would be a 60+% form factor RF with high-quality dye-sub PBT keycaps. It would be a more refined version of the FC660C or a slightly expanded HHKB Pro 2.

[daerid]

I own both. Currently I do not have a 45g RealForce, but I used to. I can say that to me, the FC660C is very, very similar to the RealForce. The smaller form factor affects the key feel somewhat, but not enough to really make a difference. It still feels like a Topre, it's still awesome. I will say that it feels closer to a RealForce than the HHKB.

[jameslr]

Having never tried the FC660C - I own both Realforce and HHKB Pro 2. The feel is distinctly different between the two. The HHKB is not near as solid to type on as the RF87U. The plate makes all the difference. I think I'd like the FC660C given that it's plate mounted. I still really like my HHKB Pro 2, but it takes some getting used to.

My all time favorite so far is the Realforce RF87U 55g uniform. It is just amazing. I contemplated selling it at one point, but this was early on in its use. If you try a Realforce you MUST use it for at least 3-4 weeks as your main keyboard. Then you'll never switch.

I still really like my Filco TKL with brown MX and PBT caps, but it doesn't hold a candle to my Realforce.

[Hypersphere]

Having never tried the FC660C - I own both Realforce and HHKB Pro 2. The feel is distinctly different between the two. The HHKB is not near as solid to type on as the RF87U. The plate makes all the difference. I think I'd like the FC660C given that it's plate mounted. I still really like my HHKB Pro 2, but it takes some getting used to.

My all time favorite so far is the Realforce RF87U 55g uniform. It is just amazing. I contemplated selling it at one point, but this was early on in its use. If you try a Realforce you MUST use it for at least 3-4 weeks as your main keyboard. Then you'll never switch.

I still really like my Filco TKL with brown MX and PBT caps, but it doesn't hold a candle to my Realforce.

I like the typing feel on my FC660C with uniformly weighted 45-gram switches. I am considering a RF 87U, but I do not know if I would prefer 45-gram or 55-gram. I am fairly certain I would not like the variable-weight version. Did you ever try a 45-gram RF?

I am also considering the HHKB Pro 2, but I have serious doubts about the strange layout and absence of dedicated arrow keys, especially if I could not afford to convert all three of my workstations to the HHKB Pro 2, which would necessitate switching back and forth between the HHKB Pro 2 layout and a standard layout.

[Cafeine]

Well, for some reason I can't explain, the RF 45g uniform feels too light, compared to the SAME 45g in the FC660C (my fav Topre board atm) or HHKB (I do like it too ). For me, RF = 55g for happiness. Sadly, I have a 45g atm...

[jameslr]

Having never tried the FC660C - I own both Realforce and HHKB Pro 2. The feel is distinctly different between the two. The HHKB is not near as solid to type on as the RF87U. The plate makes all the difference. I think I'd like the FC660C given that it's plate mounted. I still really like my HHKB Pro 2, but it takes some getting used to.

My all time favorite so far is the Realforce RF87U 55g uniform. It is just amazing. I contemplated selling it at one point, but this was early on in its use. If you try a Realforce you MUST use it for at least 3-4 weeks as your main keyboard. Then you'll never switch.

I still really like my Filco TKL with brown MX and PBT caps, but it doesn't hold a candle to my Realforce.

I like the typing feel on my FC660C with uniformly weighted 45-gram switches. I am considering a RF 87U, but I do not know if I would prefer 45-gram or 55-gram. I am fairly certain I would not like the variable-weight version. Did you ever try a 45-gram RF?

I am also considering the HHKB Pro 2, but I have serious doubts about the strange layout and absence of dedicated arrow keys, especially if I could not afford to convert all three of my workstations to the HHKB Pro 2, which would necessitate switching back and forth between the HHKB Pro 2 layout and a standard layout.

I've never typed on a 45g uniform RF board, but I've tried a variable board and even though I like light MX switches I thought the RF was a tad too light for my tastes. That is mostly because the actuation is very subtle and at the top of the stroke. The 55g boards have a noticeable tactile bump at the top whereas the 45g switches don't as much. I'm not a sloppy typist by any stretch, but I made more errors on a variable weight Realforce than the 55g for sure. I am pretty sure I would get used to it, but I think the 55g feels just right.

Now the only problem is wanting a plate mounted HHKB. I think I just prefer plate mounted boards. If they were to make a special run of HHKB that includes a plate and 55g switches I would definitely buy it. I might even replace my Realforce with one, but it's hard to imagine not having dedicated arrow keys on any keyboard. I haven't found it difficult to adjust to switching between boards in the least, but I seem to know by spacial orientation or switch feel, what I have access to in terms of layout.

[Hypersphere]

Having never tried the FC660C - I own both Realforce and HHKB Pro 2. The feel is distinctly different between the two. The HHKB is not near as solid to type on as the RF87U. The plate makes all the difference. I think I'd like the FC660C given that it's plate mounted. I still really like my HHKB Pro 2, but it takes some getting used to.

My all time favorite so far is the Realforce RF87U 55g uniform. It is just amazing. I contemplated selling it at one point, but this was early on in its use. If you try a Realforce you MUST use it for at least 3-4 weeks as your main keyboard. Then you'll never switch.

I still really like my Filco TKL with brown MX and PBT caps, but it doesn't hold a candle to my Realforce.

I like the typing feel on my FC660C with uniformly weighted 45-gram switches. I am considering a RF 87U, but I do not know if I would prefer 45-gram or 55-gram. I am fairly certain I would not like the variable-weight version. Did you ever try a 45-gram RF?

I am also considering the HHKB Pro 2, but I have serious doubts about the strange layout and absence of dedicated arrow keys, especially if I could not afford to convert all three of my workstations to the HHKB Pro 2, which would necessitate switching back and forth between the HHKB Pro 2 layout and a standard layout.

I've never typed on a 45g uniform RF board, but I've tried a variable board and even though I like light MX switches I thought the RF was a tad too light for my tastes. That is mostly because the actuation is very subtle and at the top of the stroke. The 55g boards have a noticeable tactile bump at the top whereas the 45g switches don't as much. I'm not a sloppy typist by any stretch, but I made more errors on a variable weight Realforce than the 55g for sure. I am pretty sure I would get used to it, but I think the 55g feels just right.

Now the only problem is wanting a plate mounted HHKB. I think I just prefer plate mounted boards. If they were to make a special run of HHKB that includes a plate and 55g switches I would definitely buy it. I might even replace my Realforce with one, but it's hard to imagine not having dedicated arrow keys on any keyboard. I haven't found it difficult to adjust to switching between boards in the least, but I seem to know by spacial orientation or switch feel, what I have access to in terms of layout.

Having never tried the FC660C - I own both Realforce and HHKB Pro 2. The feel is distinctly different between the two. The HHKB is not near as solid to type on as the RF87U. The plate makes all the difference. I think I'd like the FC660C given that it's plate mounted. I still really like my HHKB Pro 2, but it takes some getting used to.

My all time favorite so far is the Realforce RF87U 55g uniform. It is just amazing. I contemplated selling it at one point, but this was early on in its use. If you try a Realforce you MUST use it for at least 3-4 weeks as your main keyboard. Then you'll never switch.

I still really like my Filco TKL with brown MX and PBT caps, but it doesn't hold a candle to my Realforce.

I like the typing feel on my FC660C with uniformly weighted 45-gram switches. I am considering a RF 87U, but I do not know if I would prefer 45-gram or 55-gram. I am fairly certain I would not like the variable-weight version. Did you ever try a 45-gram RF?

I am also considering the HHKB Pro 2, but I have serious doubts about the strange layout and absence of dedicated arrow keys, especially if I could not afford to convert all three of my workstations to the HHKB Pro 2, which would necessitate switching back and forth between the HHKB Pro 2 layout and a standard layout.

I've never typed on a 45g uniform RF board, but I've tried a variable board and even though I like light MX switches I thought the RF was a tad too light for my tastes. That is mostly because the actuation is very subtle and at the top of the stroke. The 55g boards have a noticeable tactile bump at the top whereas the 45g switches don't as much. I'm not a sloppy typist by any stretch, but I made more errors on a variable weight Realforce than the 55g for sure. I am pretty sure I would get used to it, but I think the 55g feels just right.

Now the only problem is wanting a plate mounted HHKB. I think I just prefer plate mounted boards. If they were to make a special run of HHKB that includes a plate and 55g switches I would definitely buy it. I might even replace my Realforce with one, but it's hard to imagine not having dedicated arrow keys on any keyboard. I haven't found it difficult to adjust to switching between boards in the least, but I seem to know by spacial orientation or switch feel, what I have access to in terms of layout.

Based on the recent comments along with outside impressions I've collected, I am leaning toward a RF 87U with uniformly weighted 55-gram Topre switches. It would be great if a maker of high-quality keyboards were to produce something like a plate-mounted 60+% board with dye-sub PBT keycaps and all 55-gram Topres, but I doubt this will happen anytime soon if at all. This is disappointing, because I like the small form factor of a 60% board, but I also know that I want dedicated arrow keys, dye-sub PBT keycaps, and relatively heavy (55-gram) plate-mounted Topre switches. The Leopold FC660C meets most of these criteria except for the keycaps and the 55-gram Topres, but I can get an RF 87U that meets all the criteria except the smaller form factor.

[daerid]

If you're willing to spend a little money, you can get both, and put the 55g domes into the 660C. You can also use quite a few of the RF keycaps (not all of them thought).

[therecorder]

If you're willing to spend a little money, you can get both, and put the 55g domes into the 660C. You can also use quite a few of the RF keycaps (not all of them thought).

You're kind of evil tempting people like that

[Hypersphere]

If you're willing to spend a little money, you can get both, and put the 55g domes into the 660C. You can also use quite a few of the RF keycaps (not all of them thought).

I notice that the little auxiliary spring on the spacebar switch in my FC660C gives an agreeable extra heaviness and rebound. I think that the spring effectively adds about 5 cN to the switch. If I could get enough of these springs for the entire keyboard, this would be a really easy modification. It wouldn't be the same as switching to heavier domes, but it seems like a quick and easy way to instill some extra bounce to the keyboard. Has anyone around here tried this?

[Hypersphere]

If you're willing to spend a little money, you can get both, and put the 55g domes into the 660C. You can also use quite a few of the RF keycaps (not all of them thought).

Do you have instructions or a link to instructions on how to swap domes on Topre-switch keyboards? I might be interested in creating a 55-gram HHKB Pro 2 using 55-gram domes from a RF 87u. Thanks.

[alosec]

If you're willing to spend a little money, you can get both, and put the 55g domes into the 660C. You can also use quite a few of the RF keycaps (not all of them thought).

Do you have instructions or a link to instructions on how to swap domes on Topre-switch keyboards? I might be interested in creating a 55-gram HHKB Pro 2 using 55-gram domes from a RF 87u. Thanks.

http://imgur.com/a/eI8Il

about 3/4 of the way through it is explained

you would basically be moving the rubber domes from the RF to the Leo

[spiceBar]

Just an update to this thread now that I have been using the FC660C for almost a month.

It does feel very similar to the Realforce, except for the modifiers and the spacebar which are heavier. It was expected as the Leopold has uniform Topre switches.

The sound of the Leopold is slightly less "deep". I think the difference comes from the fact that the plate is smaller, and you really need to have both keyboard side by side to be able to notice it.

I have not tried to remove the spring from the spacebar, but I will definitely try.

The FC660C feels really solid and well done. The layout is easy to adapt to. Typing on it is great.

I would definitely recommend it if you are looking for a high-quality, near-60% sized keyboard.

[rowdy]

Just an update to this thread now that I have been using the FC660C for almost a month.

It does feel very similar to the Realforce, except for the modifiers and the spacebar which are heavier. It was expected as the Leopold has uniform Topre switches.

The sound of the Leopold is slightly less "deep". I think the difference comes from the fact that the plate is smaller, and you really need to have both keyboard side by side to be able to notice it.

I have not tried to remove the spring from the spacebar, but I will definitely try.

The FC660C feels really solid and well done. The layout is easy to adapt to. Typing on it is great.

I would definitely recommend it if you are looking for a high-quality, near-60% sized keyboard.

Wow!  Another happy FC660C user.  Leopold really did something right with it!

[Neo.X]

I should have a 660C tomorrow, then I can compare it to my RF and HHKB2.  Hope it can be a solid one because I really like the layout. 

[rowdy]

I should have a 660C tomorrow, then I can compare it to my RF and HHKB2.  Hope it can be a solid one because I really like the layout. 

If not you can sell it here for pretty much the same as it cost you.

[SpAmRaY]

I should have a 660C tomorrow, then I can compare it to my RF and HHKB2.  Hope it can be a solid one because I really like the layout. 

If not you can sell it here for pretty much the same as it cost you.

I'm not sure we should tell people this. I hardly ever break even buying to try and then reselling.

[Neo.X]

I should have a 660C tomorrow, then I can compare it to my RF and HHKB2.  Hope it can be a solid one because I really like the layout. 

If not you can sell it here for pretty much the same as it cost you.

I'm not sure we should tell people this. I hardly ever break even buying to try and then reselling.

It's difficult to break even as you have to pay the shipping fee and can't add that in the resell price. I think keycaps are easiler to break even. CCs are another story though, you can actually make money by reselling them.

[rowdy]

HEH or sell it on eBay for double the cost, as long as you remember to put "RARE" in the title.

[Neo.X]

Well, got my 660C an hour ago, didn't have time to do a long typing test.

The first impression is that
  The keyboard looks very nice, aesthetically. The color, the layout and the red led (which is lack in HHKB).
  It's heavier than HHKB, which feels more durable.
  But the case itself is not as stable as RF or HHKB, I can easily squeeze it. I am kind of disappointed on this.

[therecorder]

Well, got my 660C an hour ago, didn't have time to do a long typing test.

The first impression is that
  The keyboard looks very nice, aesthetically. The color, the layout and the red led (which is lack in HHKB).
  It's heavier than HHKB, which feels more durable.
  But the case itself is not as stable as RF or HHKB, I can easily squeeze it. I am kind of disappointed on this.

After you've used it for a bit, let us know which Topre ends up being your primary driver.

[rowdy]

Cable you should be able to easily swap - they all use USB to mini-USB?

[SpAmRaY]

Cable you should be able to easily swap - they all use USB to mini-USB?

Who's talking about a cable? I'm confused.

[rowdy]

Cable you should be able to easily swap - they all use USB to mini-USB?

Who's talking about a cable? I'm confused.

Pass - it's too early in the morning.  sigh