white mx cherry vs blue?

[wellington1869]

hi gang,
 
so my qtronix kt-305 arrived from ebay, I was expecting blue cherries based on a previous thread in the forum, but apparently this model can also come with white MX cherries, (pcb mount) which is what it has.
Its definitely white MX cherry though, they're just like the white ones in these pictures.
 
Thing is, these white MX cherries are clicky (which I also was not expecting based on forum descriptions). They have a light click (not loud, but definitely there) and tactile feel.
 
So how are they different from blues?
 
My blue cherry DAS hasnt arrived yet, so I'm wondering if anyone can tell me how the white clickey mx switches are different from the blue ones?
 
From what I understand the white mx's are "rare". They dont feel bad really. Hell, I assumed they were blues until I popped a key out.

[lowpoly]

If there are clicky and non-clicky white Cherries, then maybe this is how they were made before the color coding started.

And to contradict myself, there's still a pic of a white switch on Cherry's current US site:



Pic is from http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm

But maybe that pic is old as well, and browns came some time after blues.

[wellington1869]

I'm guessing that that is the case -- ie, that this keyboard is old enough that its pre-color-coding. The keyboard is dated 02/08/1985 by the way.
 
I opened it up yesterday and looked at the pcb and how the switches are mounted. There's no doubt they are mx switches (you can see the two release tabs and everything, though they are underneath the metal plate and so largely unaccessible). Technically the switches could be swapped with brown or blue stems but you'd have to desolder (the switches are mounted on a metal plate which is in turn mounted on a pcb; the switches run down thru both. But using karlito's way (wasnt that a movie?) you could technically desolder them and then stem-swap.
 
At this point I'm increasingly convinced these are "blues before blues were blue". I'll have a chance to compare them with today's blues once my DAS shows up. I'll post a comparison in the review section.

[wellington1869]

At this point I'm increasingly convinced these are "blues before blues were blue".

Update: Not quite. I replaced the white keyswitch that I had butcherd with a blue cherry from Digikey - and I had a chance to compare the white clicky and blue clicky side by side, including their internals. They are not identical. Even though they feel extremely similar, the white clicky has a shorter (but stiffer?) spring, and has a more pronounced bump on the slider. Can hardly tell while you're typing, but I guess now that I know the difference I can start listening and feeling for it, and voila, there it is. Seems like the white clicky MX is a little bit louder and a touch stiffer. I would never had guessed tho if I didnt know what to listen for.

[hsnoob]

This page actually has a good summary of the color coded MX switches that are in use.

MX linear action = black
MX with tactile feel = white
MX with tactile feel(ergonomic) = brown
MX with click tactile feel = blue

My recently arrived Cherry G80-3000 LQCEU-2 has white switches. The G80 LSC* models appear to use brown switches and G80 LPC* models use black ones. I'm not aware of any G80 models that come with blue switches though.

In comparison with the G81-3000 ("FTSC") that died in a coffee related accident before i got he G80, typing on the G80 feels very different and much better.

[Chloe]

I'm not aware of any G80 models that come with blue switches though.

G80 models with F, S or W in the model number have blue switches:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=12253#post12253

[wellington1869]

This page actually has a good summary of the color coded MX switches that are in use.

MX linear action = black
MX with tactile feel = white
MX with tactile feel(ergonomic) = brown
MX with click tactile feel = blue

My recently arrived Cherry G80-3000 LQCEU-2 has white switches. The G80 LSC* models appear to use brown switches and G80 LPC* models use black ones. I'm not aware of any G80 models that come with blue switches though.

In comparison with the G81-3000 ("FTSC") that died in a coffee related accident before i got he G80, typing on the G80 feels very different and much better.

hsnoob, but were your whites clicky (audible) in addition to being tactile (feel)?  Mine were both clicky and tactile, which is a bit strange.

[fkeidjn]

hsnoob, but were your whites clicky (audible) in addition to being tactile (feel)?  Mine were both clicky and tactile, which is a bit strange.

That page only has information on the most recent Cherry switches.  I remember reading on a thread somewhere here that the older white Cherries were clicky tactile, like the current Cherry blues.

[Chloe]

The force graph for the Cherry white MX on the Qwerters Clinic site looks just like the one in this pdf for the soft tactile feel (clear stem):
http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0146/0900766b8014611b.pdf

These clear stem switches (MX1A-C1NW) are not clicky:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=10043&postcount=52

I think the clear stem is easily confused with the white stem because it looks white.

[lowpoly]

The G80 LSC* models appear to use brown switches and G80 LPC* models use black ones. I'm not aware of any G80 models that come with blue switches though.

G80-3000LSCxx has blue switches.

[sandy55]

Hi wellington1869

If switches in your KT-305 are exactly same with those seen in chihdar7's blog page you've quoted, then yours are FAKE cherry.
If yours have Cherry log atop upper housing, then they are Real MX/White but clicky type before todays color coding fixed.
I have not yet seen keyboards with fake cherrys made before 1990, so I think yours might have real Cherry if the manufacturing
date is correct.  

Cherry MX/white click, not soft tactile (this is exceptional sample of MX/White ).

another sample of fake cherry white came with Chicony  KB-5191

sandy55

[wellington1869]

Hi wellington1869

If switches in your KT-305 are exactly same with those seen in chihdar7's blog page you've quoted, then yours are FAKE cherry.
If yours have Cherry log atop upper housing, then they are Real MX/White but clicky type before todays color coding fixed.
I have not yet seen keyboards with fake cherrys made before 1990, so I think yours might have real Cherry if the manufacturing
date is correct.  

Cherry MX/white click, not soft tactile (this is exceptional sample of MX/White ).

another sample of fake cherry white came with Chicony  KB-5191

sandy55

Hi sandy, welcome to geekhack and thanks for the information! Lam has my board now, maybe he could check to see if there is a cherry logo on the white switches. I dont remember if they had a logo. They kind of look like the chihdar switches but I cant be sure.
By the way, are you sandy55 from fc2web.com? If so, we are honored

[sandy55]

Hi sandy, welcome to geekhack  

By the way, are you sandy55 from fc2web.com?

yes.  Chloe invited me using special network of CTU.  Once declined politely
but while reading some threads, my finger rolled a Kensington ball to hit the
registration button by what reason.

[wellington1869]

while reading some threads, my finger rolled a Kensington ball to hit the
registration button by what reason.

thats pretty much how it happened to me too

[lam47]

They dont say cherry on them anywhere.
However the upper casing is not quite the same as in the link there.

edit, yeah they are. These are the fake cherries for sure.

[wellington1869]

They dont say cherry on them anywhere.
However the upper casing is not quite the same as in the link there.

edit, yeah they are. These are the fake cherries for sure.

lol, thanks for the info lam! So what does fake cherries mean in this case, that they're chinese knockoffs or something? Unlicensed or licensed?

[lam47]

The only difference I can feel (quality wise) is that these have to be hit from the centre of the key. If you hit the side too much they stick. Otherwise they feel like cherries.

[sandy55]

One more check point identifying real and fake.
Real MX has a round hole for LED in the upper housing while fake does not.

re manufacturing date.
Is the date actually printed as "02/08/1985" in FCC label at the bottom of the lower case?
Isn't it " 85.08.02 " or something like that without [19] or [ '] preceding 85 on a PCB ?
if so it could be read as 1996.
It's hard to believe that copy product of mx was on k/b market in 1985.  

I've checked FCC data and found only 3 items were listed in F2Q( qtronix) .
Earliest were F2Q4NEKB-6000M and F2Q4NEQX-101 granted on 1987.  
But off course there is a possibility that some products may not be listed there.  

lam47, could you identify FCC ID on the label?

sandy55

[lam47]

yeah its F2Q4NEKT-30

there is no date on the label on the base but inside on the pcb there is this.

[sandy55]

[85.08.02] .  
That's what I expected.
Taiwan Calender begins in 1912.  TC85 is AC1996.

FCC ID F2Q4NEKT-30 was granted on 06/07/1990.
My KT-30M( MX/blue) with a track ball has same FCC ID.
      
One more fact to know.
101 US layout began with model M ( if  I'm correct ) since 1987.  If the product is 1985 made,
then it should have sort of XT83 or AT84 key layout.  

sandy55

[Chloe]

Welcome to geekhack, sandy.

wellington, do you still have the Macally numpad with clicky black Cherries? When you said they had no logo I thought they might be fake but I only know of white stem:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=cn&u=http://www.talkdigi.net/kbt/whiteswitch.html

[lam47]

There's the layout

[wellington1869]

[85.08.02] .  
That's what I expected.
Taiwan Calender begins in 1912.  TC85 is AC1996.

FCC ID F2Q4NEKT-30 was granted on 06/07/1990.
My KT-30M( MX/blue) with a track ball has same FCC ID.
      
sandy55

so what does that mean? is it fake or real? If fake, who made it?

[wellington1869]

wellington, do you still have the Macally numpad with clicky black Cherries? When you said they had no logo I thought they might be fake but I only know of white stem:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=cn&u=http://www.talkdigi.net/kbt/whiteswitch.html

hey chloe, I still have it. you want it?  I'm not sure if its fake or not but it sure feels like a blue cherry.

[lam47]

They are fakes for sure looking at the pics of the real cherry next to the fake one.

[sandy55]

Welcome to geekhack, sandy.

Thanks for inviting me.

wellington, do you still have the Macally numpad with clicky black Cherries?
When you said they had no logo I thought they might be fake but I only know of white stem:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=cn&u=http://www.talkdigi.net/kbt/whiteswitch.html

These are fake. no logo, no LED hole, no round guides ( one just beneath cherry logo,
the other locates at the opposite side on real MX.  you'll notice the difference if you examine
the upper case carefully ).

Re KT-305 layout
Hey hey, my my, Rock'n Roll can never die but Win keys are sitting there.
It means that the board was not made before 1995.
KT-30M is in same layout without win keys but with a track ball.
If I were you, lam, I would swap whole switches to MX/blue.
MXs on a steel plate is worth to have.

Difference btwn real and fake
welington wrote in 3rd post in this thread ;
"I know the difference I can start listening and feeling for it, and voila, there it is.
Seems like the white clicky MX is a little bit louder and a touch stiffer.
 I would never had guessed tho if I didnt know what to listen for."
         ( red/bold/italic part decorated by sandy )

Some may feel "louder and stiffer" in every strokes while typing.
As for me, I feel it's too loud and too stiff and clicking sound is very different from real.
In a word, just noisy to me. But the others may like loud clicking sonud.
 
Who made these fake switches?
I think it's waste of time to investigate it.
These switches can be seen in many k/b's made by NANTAN( branded as Zeos,
Unikey, LEO and others ), APC, Chicony, Qtronix and more.
Fact is they are not REAL. made by one or two (and more ? ) of factories in Taiwan.
Quality is poor and far behind to real MX ( just my opinion ) but can provide clicky
sound and feel.

Hope this comment may not cause a flame war.
sandy

[cchan]

Sandy is this how you feel about real vs fake white alps too? Sounds like my opinion on them, having a Focus FK-2001 with real white alps, and two with fake. The fake are definitely louder and stiffer, and more inconsistent quality between switches.

[sandy55]

Hi Tales.

Roughly speaking, the answer is YES.
FK-2001 Win key version usually has fake alps like this.  
But I feel it much closer to real alps compairing to this one ( simplified-I ).  
Though movement of axis is loose and somehow noisy, upside of this switch is that
the upper case and leaf spring ( also coil spring and key-stem if you want) can be
replaced to real alps when you break or lose original parts accidentally.

I feel simplified-I is stiffer and louder than fake blue. Upper case can not  be swapped to
real base. Click leaves are usable but you'll get stiff movement and loud clicking sound.

Linked page may not be displayed on Google Chrome. don't know reason why.
I/E, NetScape and FireFox are OK.

sandy

[cchan]

Linked page may not be displayed on Google Chrome. don't know reason why.
I/E, NetScape and FireFox are OK.

sandy

I have Firefox 3.0.5 en-US on Windows XP SP3 English (US) and it does not display for me.

[Chloe]

It displays for me in Firefox 2 and Opera 9.51.

[xsphat]

I have Firefox 3.0.5 en-US on Windows XP SP3 English (US) and it does not display for me.

Ditto but in OS X 10.5.6, Safari doesn't show it either.

Sandy, I'm glad to have you here. Welcome to Geekhack.

[sandy55]

I'm glad to be here and to talk about k/b with you guys and ladies.

Made some adjustment on the page. Google Chrome shows it fine now.
Hope FireFox n Safari do same

same adjustment made on acer kb-101a. I have to check other pages.

sandy

[lam47]

I can see them fine. Could before too.
Firefox 3.0.5 on Ubuntu and Vista.
Cheers Sandy.