Keyboard for work

[rowdy]

I don't know how you guys code on a 60% ... I can't work without a keypad. Got nothing against a compact or TKL for home though!

Also, I second the buckling spring notion. I deliberately brought mx blues to work BECAUSE of how loud they are. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to bother anyone ...  )

About the only thing I miss a numpad for is entering IP addresses.

But you could always get a stand-alone numpad if you really needed one

[mougrim]

I don't know how you guys code on a 60% ... I can't work without a keypad. Got nothing against a compact or TKL for home though!

Also, I second the buckling spring notion. I deliberately brought mx blues to work BECAUSE of how loud they are. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to bother anyone ...  )

Buy buckling spring board Then bring it to work... If after THAT they'll not be bothered, they're deaf

[ctbear]

What kind of work do you do? Usually for 60% we have the popular Poker II and HHKB. Switch differences aside if your job is on the technical side (coding) then HHKB, otherwise it depends on your preferences.

The HHKB is not better for coding. I own both and I code, so maybe I know a little bit about that.

The HHKB Fn layout and especially how the arrows and other navigation keys are acceded is highly controversial. Many coders have actually stopped using it after trying for a while. You will find people who adapt, and you will find people who cannot adapt to it.

On the other hand, the Poker II is programmable. You can redefine the Fn layout and put the arrows and other navigation keys where you want.

The HHKB is nice, but saying that it is better for coding is simply not true.

On both the HHKB and the Poker 2 I use the same layout, which has nothing to do with either the default HHKB layout (my HHKB is modded, which makes it programmable) or the Poker 2 default layout. Both default layouts are IMHO terrible for coding, but at least the Poker 2 has the advantage of being reprogrammable out of the box.

I'm curious, do you ever use Emacs or Vi(m)? The reason I said HHKB is good for coding is not because of its fn layer, but rather its unique layout. I code on my HHKB 100% of the time and I greatly appreciate the control key location.
If all you do is Visual Studio then the Poker might be a bit better (as you can program it for all sorts of shortcuts). But if you need to write code and ssh and whatnot on different boxes and OSes, then the Poker is no match for the universally favorable layout on the HHKB.

I use neither Emacs not vim.

If for you the selling point for the HHKB is that you can have Control on CapsLock, then do you know that you can do that on the Poker 2 as well? I have just done so on mine, just for fun.

I use way too many IDEs, but not Visual Studio. I use Xcode, Monodevelop, CodeLite, Kdevelop. I also use Kedit, Gedit, Smultron and other editors depending on what I'm doing. I code in C, C#, Objective-C, even bash (eek!) and more obscure scripting languages. I think I may do some Java by mistake, sometimes.

Don't tell anyone, but I can do Basic and Pascal also.

From this you can also tell that I have to work on several OSes.

I'm also typing my answer to you in this textbox, in this browser, and I don't think Emacs or vim commands would help me here.

My point is that there is now a well established standard for text editing involving 8 navigation keys and a few modifiers like Ctrl, Shift and Alt. I don't really see the point in Emacs and vim anymore, and in relocating the Control key. I'm fine with where it is now on standard keyboards. I have started working on computers at a time when it was at the left of A, but I don't mind its current location.

But who cares. On most keyboards you can swap Ctrl and Caps Lock anyway. On the Poker 2, you can put Ctrl on Esc if you like. Or Backspace on \ like on the HHKB if that's your thing.

So please tell me again that the Poker (or any other relatively standard and programmable keyboard) is no match for the (what?) "universally favorable layout" on the HHKB. That's quite funny, you know.

The HHKB is a lovely overpriced keyboard. I have one. I love it but only because I can reprogram it (which is not standard, my HHKB is modded). Thank god, I don't have to use its standard layout. If I was forced to, I would surely resell it.

Um no I think you are missing my point. I know you can swap the control key and the caps lock programmatically, but this is exactly why HHKB is superior -  it doesn't require any special effort to make that happen. Just plug it in and that's it. No need to figure out the OS specific mapping. And of course you can also swap the pipe and backspace but I will much rather have a bigger backspace key.
It's fine if you don't like that layout,  but the fact that you are going extra mile to reprogram it tells me you like Topre. So you have that too.

I am a professional developer. I code on a daily basis under Windows (Visual Studio) and under Linux.

My main text editor is emacs. I often use vi when I log onto embedded Linux systems with busybox on them. But, otherwise, I do nearly everything with emacs. I use org-mode as my daily journal. I edit all my emails with it. When I have to slice and dice text, I copy it in an emacs buffer and perform all the required modifications.

A long time ago, I bought the HHKB Lite 2. I was bought by all the posts I found at the time praising the keyboard for it's smart layout perfectly adapted to hackers/coders. I tried long and hard to become comfortable with the keyboard, but it just never happened. I had too many contortions to go through to become more as efficient with it as I was with a standard keyboard.

I went back to a 100% keyboard. Then, I was sold again to the idea of a small keyboard and bought a Deck 82. Same mistake.

I recently fell again for a small keyboard by buying a Poker II. I hate myself for having done so. I brought it at work and after two weeks I was still way too slow with it. When you have many 3-key combinations to make in a day and now you have to use 4 keys to make them, this is not what I call an efficient move.

Remapping the CAPS Lock to Ctrl under Windows is a piece of cake. If you forgot how to do it using the registry, just download SharpKeys and off you go. Under Linux? If you use Gnome, you can install the Tweak Tool extension and there is an option to remap the Control key to whatever you want. If not, just google it and you will be set in less than 5 minutes.

Really, I am sorry to be so blunt but, saying that if you are a coder, you need a HHKB is just ludicrous. I, myself use emacs all day long, and yet, I couldn't get away without dedicated navigation keys. Need to type the HOME key on a HHKB Pro 2? You need to hold the Fn key with your pinky and reach for the K key? Really?

... and no programmable layer?

The only relation that keyboard has with "hacking" is its name.

I have never once suggested that you need an HHKB for coding. Heck no one needs the HHKB for anything, it's an expensive keyboard.
All I'm saying is, if you are a programmer and/or sysadmin (who would have to do lots of editing in emacs and vi) then the HHKB layout is better. The "limited" layout is more efficient because it forces you to not move your hand off the home row to other keys like HOME and arrow keys. You don't need and shouldn't use those if you are in those editors and you care about efficiency. If that layout really doesn't work for someone I can understand. The normal layout will still work obviously.
Remapping the keys under Windows, piece of cake or not, is still extra work. What if you are plugging the keyboard to another machine? You will have to do the same thing again.
These two things combined are what I have been trying to say. With HHKB you don't have to do anything extra for a more efficient layout.

Now I was not aware of the Poker II's ability to have programmable hardware layer. My only experience with it was a 10-minute trial at my friend's house. That was a mistake on my part.

[ctbear]

From this you can also tell that I have to work on several OSes.

I'm also typing my answer to you in this textbox, in this browser, and I don't think Emacs or vim commands would help me here.

My point is that there is now a well established standard for text editing involving 8 navigation keys and a few modifiers like Ctrl, Shift and Alt. I don't really see the point in Emacs and vim anymore, and in relocating the Control key. I'm fine with where it is now on standard keyboards. I have started working on computers at a time when it was at the left of A, but I don't mind its current location.

But who cares. On most keyboards you can swap Ctrl and Caps Lock anyway. On the Poker 2, you can put Ctrl on Esc if you like. Or Backspace on \ like on the HHKB if that's your thing.

So please tell me again that the Poker (or any other relatively standard and programmable keyboard) is no match for the (what?) "universally favorable layout" on the HHKB. That's quite funny, you know.

The HHKB is a lovely overpriced keyboard. I have one. I love it but only because I can reprogram it (which is not standard, my HHKB is modded). Thank god, I don't have to use its standard layout. If I was forced to, I would surely resell it.

Um no I think you are missing my point. I know you can swap the control key and the caps lock programmatically, but this is exactly why HHKB is superior -  it doesn't require any special effort to make that happen. Just plug it in and that's it. No need to figure out the OS specific mapping. And of course you can also swap the pipe and backspace but I will much rather have a bigger backspace key.
It's fine if you don't like that layout,  but the fact that you are going extra mile to reprogram it tells me you like Topre. So you have that too.

Cough, *FC660M (MX) and FC660R (Topre)*. If swapping the Control and Capslock button in hardware is the big selling point then that board can do that too. Just flip a dipswitch.
You can even swap the windows and Fn key.
And having Home, End, Page up and Page down under the arrow keys is brilliant. The only thing I miss at home is the F5 key but at work I hardly ever use them so if they are under the Fn-layer that's perfectly workable.

Now THAT I didn't know. I don't own an FC660. If I didn't already have a RF 55g I might order one right now.

There is always room for more keyboard love. Whether it is Topre or Cherry MX. Just see it like a Topre Poker.

There is, but I think I am officially spoiled by the 55g Topre. Not many choices with that particular switch 

[paco]

I have never once suggested that you need an HHKB for coding. Heck no one needs the HHKB for anything, it's an expensive keyboard.
All I'm saying is, if you are a programmer and/or sysadmin (who would have to do lots of editing in emacs and vi) then the HHKB layout is better. The "limited" layout is more efficient because it forces you to not move your hand off the home row to other keys like HOME and arrow keys. You don't need and shouldn't use those if you are in those editors and you care about efficiency. If that layout really doesn't work for someone I can understand. The normal layout will still work obviously.
Remapping the keys under Windows, piece of cake or not, is still extra work. What if you are plugging the keyboard to another machine? You will have to do the same thing again.
These two things combined are what I have been trying to say. With HHKB you don't have to do anything extra for a more efficient layout.

Now I was not aware of the Poker II's ability to have programmable hardware layer. My only experience with it was a 10-minute trial at my friend's house. That was a mistake on my part.

You seem to know that when you are using emacs, you have no need for the standard navigation keys (arrows, page up/down, home/end).

You say, having them on the Fn layer is better, because it forces you to stay on the home row.

Let me ask you this: if I am using a 100% keyboard AND I am using emacs, will I be using the standard navigation keys? Exactly.

So, what are you saying again?

Also, the "HHKB let's you not move from the home row" assertion is false. Where are your fingers when you need to depress UP, DOWN, PAGE DOWN, END? Where is the Fn key located? See what I mean?

So, the HHKB doesn't force you to stay on the home row. If you use emacs and use a 100% keyboard, you stay on the home row.
The Fn layer of the HHKB doesn't let you stay on the home row. There are key combinations that require you to perform some not so comfortable contortions (example: Home=Fn+K, unless you have long fingers, that is not an easy reach).

What the HHKB really offers is an economy of movement. It is efficient movement wise, but not on the number of keys that needs to be depressed.

All in all, the HHKB is _NOT_ a programmer friendly keyboard. Unless your job as a programmer is limited to using emacs or vi exclusively (and, frankly, nowadays, I don't see who could find a job with such a limited required skill set).

[jacobolus]

Let me ask you this: if I am using a 100% keyboard AND I am using emacs, will I be using the standard navigation keys? Exactly.

I assume not? But I don’t know what kind of silly things you might do. :-)

There are key combinations that require you to perform some not so comfortable contortions (example: Home=Fn+K, unless you have long fingers, that is not an easy reach).

I don’t use an HHKB, and I think the layout could be improved in several ways, but seriously?

Fn+K on the HHKB is just as easy to reach as symbols like +, |, ^, ~ which any programmer is going to need to get to on a regular basis. Pressing Fn+K is dramatically faster, easier, and more accurate than moving the hand over to press a physical "Home" key on a full-size keyboard.

All in all, the HHKB is _NOT_ a programmer friendly keyboard. Unless your job as a programmer is limited to using emacs or vi exclusively (and, frankly, nowadays, I don't see who could find a job with such a limited required skill set).

Are you serious?

Almost all the programmers I know have the full freedom to choose whatever tools best suit them. Allowing professionals to choose the tools which suit them is a simple matter of respect.

“Limited required skill set”? How does choice of text editor reflect skill in any way?

[paco]

There are key combinations that require you to perform some not so comfortable contortions (example: Home=Fn+K, unless you have long fingers, that is not an easy reach).

I don’t use an HHKB, and I think the layout could be improved in several ways, but seriously?

Fn+K on the HHKB is just as easy to reach as symbols like +, |, ^, ~ which any programmer is going to need to get to on a regular basis. Pressing Fn+K is dramatically faster, easier, and more accurate than moving the hand over to press a physical "Home" key on a full-size keyboard.

I disagree. I can hit the Home key blind folded and dizzy 99 times out of 100 (I just tried it).

I don't see much of a problem with PAGE UP/DOWN, but to me, the HOME/END is too far (and I am a guy that is close to 2m tall and with big hands...). I am not saying I can't reach the combination. I am saying I don't feel the combination to be comfortable.

And I don't believe the arrow cluster is very smart. Hitting the DOWN key hurts my middle finger.

I have a Poker II and I don't quite like where the Fn key is located. On that keyboard, I use my right thumb to activate the Fn key and then have to touch keys which are located too close to that key. Actually, this makes me realize I should reprogram my Poker II so that the navigation keys are shifted one row higher. Just did the movement on that keyboard and makes much more sense!

I should reprogram the Fn layer on the HHKB. Oh... wait......... yeah..............

All in all, the HHKB is _NOT_ a programmer friendly keyboard. Unless your job as a programmer is limited to using emacs or vi exclusively (and, frankly, nowadays, I don't see who could find a job with such a limited required skill set).

Are you serious?

Almost all the programmers I know have the full freedom to choose whatever tools best suit them. Allowing professionals to choose the tools which suit them is a simple matter of respect.

“Limited required skill set”? How does choice of text editor reflect skill in any way?

You misinterpreted what I have said. But nevertheless...

I don't know where you work, but my experience tells me no matter how good you are, you don't have the luxury of using the tools you want. You work in a Windows shop? You will have to use Visual Studio. You don't like it? Here's the door.

If you are talking about tools like text editors, differs and the like, then, yes. But, what is the link with what I was saying?

By limited skill set I meant to say that I don't know who would be working as a software developer and could get away with ONLY using an editor like emacs or vi all day long. What required skill set would you need to show at work so that you can pull that off (like being a web dev doing javascript work all day in emacs only? Never leaving that environment??)?

Anyway. the HHKB has a cult following. My point is that saying the HHKB is  _THE_ programmer's keyboard is a ludicrous proposition. I can understand some like it, but I also understand, because I tried it, that it can be as inefficient as it is elegant. Economy of movement? Sure. Economy of keystrokes? No.

[jacobolus]

I disagree. I can hit the Home key blind folded and dizzy 99 times out of 100 (I just tried it).

The problem is not that it’s *hard* to press the Home key. The problem is that it requires moving your whole hand to a new place, which loses your orientation relative to the home row. As a result, to press the home key you need to move your hand (slow), find your place in the new location (potentially slow), press the key, move your hand back (slow), and find your place again in the home row location (potentially slow).

Think about the difference for a piano player between playing scales and playing notes an octave apart.

And I don't believe the arrow cluster is very smart. Hitting the DOWN key hurts my middle finger.

As far as I can tell, you’re supposed to use your thumb for the down key.

I should reprogram the Fn layer on the HHKB. Oh... wait......... yeah..............

Hasu has made new controllers for the HHKB, if you want to program it.

I don't know where you work, but my experience tells me no matter how good you are, you don't have the luxury of using the tools you want. You work in a Windows shop? You will have to use Visual Studio. You don't like it? Here's the door.

Good reason to never work in a Windows shop then. There’s no way I’m going in the door of some place that doesn’t have enough respect for programmers to let them choose their own tools.

By limited skill set I meant to say that I don't know who would be working as a software developer and could get away with ONLY using an editor like emacs or vi all day long.

Quite literally, the majority of the programmers I know do exactly that. (Well, or they use TextMate, or Sublime Text, or whatever the hell else they want to use). This is people who work for software-centric companies (mostly internet companies, of all sizes) in San Francisco and the SF Bay Area, writing Python, Ruby, Java, C, C++, JavaScript, ...; maybe it’s different in other parts of the country, or in more backwards industries?

saying the HHKB is  _THE_ programmer's keyboard is a ludicrous proposition.

Well sure. I think suggesting that anything with a Sholes/QWERTY layout, no hand separation or tenting, only a couple keys for each thumb, etc. is close to ideal is pretty ludicrous. :-)

I don’t use the HHKB. But I do think it’s better than a full-sized keyboard for most uses. Especially when you have the ability to set up your own key bindings, etc., as is certainly the case in any reasonable text editor.

[ctbear]

I disagree. I can hit the Home key blind folded and dizzy 99 times out of 100 (I just tried it).

The problem is not that it’s *hard* to press the Home key. The problem is that it requires moving your whole hand to a new place, which loses your orientation relative to the home row. As a result, to press the home key you need to move your hand (slow), find your place in the new location (potentially slow), press the key, move your hand back (slow), and find your place again in the home row location (potentially slow).

Think about the difference for a piano player between playing scales and playing notes an octave apart.

And I don't believe the arrow cluster is very smart. Hitting the DOWN key hurts my middle finger.

As far as I can tell, you’re supposed to use your thumb for the down key.

I should reprogram the Fn layer on the HHKB. Oh... wait......... yeah..............

Hasu has made new controllers for the HHKB, if you want to program it.

I don't know where you work, but my experience tells me no matter how good you are, you don't have the luxury of using the tools you want. You work in a Windows shop? You will have to use Visual Studio. You don't like it? Here's the door.

Good reason to never work in a Windows shop then. There’s no way I’m going in the door of some place that doesn’t have enough respect for programmers to let them choose their own tools.

By limited skill set I meant to say that I don't know who would be working as a software developer and could get away with ONLY using an editor like emacs or vi all day long.

Quite literally, the majority of the programmers I know do exactly that. (Well, or they use TextMate, or Sublime Text, or whatever the hell else they want to use). This is people who work for software-centric companies (mostly internet companies, of all sizes) in San Francisco and the SF Bay Area, writing Python, Ruby, Java, C, C++, JavaScript, ...; maybe it’s different in other parts of the country, or in more backwards industries?

saying the HHKB is  _THE_ programmer's keyboard is a ludicrous proposition.

Well sure. I think suggesting that anything with a Sholes/QWERTY layout, no hand separation or tenting, only a couple keys for each thumb, etc. is close to ideal is pretty ludicrous. :-)

I don’t use the HHKB. But I do think it’s better than a full-sized keyboard for most uses. Especially when you have the ability to set up your own key bindings, etc., as is certainly the case in any reasonable text editor.

Thank you jacobolus, you put it way better than I ever could.

If you are a serious programming working for a serious software company, you will and should use a lot of vim and emacs, and their corresponding movement paradigms. If you give me a 100% keyboard I sure as hell won't ever be using the nav keys and six pack for movement. You will not dream of leaving your home row if you care about efficiency.