KBT Pure

[bisl]

I'd been looking at a Poker for a while, and originally held off because I couldn't find them in Reds; then, because of a PCB flexing issue highlighted by other people. Then I heard about the KBT Pure, and discovered that it seemed to be a good answer many of my keyboard wishes. Specifically, arrows on the right hand, unlike the Poker which has them on the left. I program for work, which for me means a ton of cursoring around with arrow keys, home/end, shift, ctrl, and all combinations of the above. During crunch time at work I've occasionally gotten a sore right shoulder, which I have given a lay man's diagnosis of too much home-row/arrow-key movement.

However, upon receiving my Pure yesterday, I discovered that I have made a couple of key oversights--specifically, the arrow keys are on OKL: rather than IJKL like I would expect--this means that in order to use them, I need to shift my hand to the right to position them on the arrow keys like I would if I were using the arrow pad on a normal 104. Moreover, to use any of the second-layer keys, the right hand has to shift to the right as well since reaching the Fn key with the right thumb is a bit of a stretch. It can be done, but it's not comfortable in the slightest without hand movement.

Furthermore--I'm kicking myself even harder for not noticing right away, but there's a Ctrl-Alt-Del on the second layer on LEFT-SHIFT! Which means if you ever want to do something like the very common select-word (ctrl-shift-leftarrow or ctrl-shift-rightarrow) the ctrl and shift keys must be pressed before the Fn key or else you get a surprise Ctrl-Alt-Del you didn't want. In my opinion, keymask keys are the last place something like this should reside.

Now, thanks to a helpful post from a different thread (http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/46017) I've been able to work out what the locks and switches do, and some of my concerns can be alleviated by giving myself a Fn on the left, at the cost of LAlt. However, without some reprogramming the arrows will remain in an awkward place and the LShift will be a minefield I'll need to learn to work around. Does anyone know if it's possible to reprogram the function layer on one of these things? I'd hate to think I'd just harvest this thing for switches eventually.

[metalliqaz]

Its strange.  You seem to have the exact opposite requirements that I do.  The decision to put the arrows on the right hand seems silly to me.  For the same reason as you... I want to keep my hands on the board.  In fact, it seems strange to me that both of the boards in question put most of the 2nd layer keys on the same hand as the Fn key.   It seems much more natural to me to use Fn with the right hand and then manipulate the arrows with the left.  Also, the WASD is already a well known pattern for me because of gaming.

Anyway, if the arrows were positioned on the IJKL, I don't know how you'd reach the Fn with your right hand.  Of course, all of this stuff goes away if you turn on the arrow lock, which turns the Rshift/rctrl/etc into an arrow pad.

I still can't decide if I'd rather have a Pure or a Poker.  I'm thinking of going with the reds also.

[bisl]

Unfortunately, I think if you decide on reds you're going to have a hard time finding a Poker since they're not being produced anymore (from what I can hear here, anyway).

But how's this for a curveball--I actually never play games using default WASD bindings because I'm left handed! ha. I hamfist it out right-handed when I need to (crappy control customizations aren't uncommon) but when I do, I actually use ESDF instead of WASD because I found that WASD messes up my home row. So actually, either left or right would work for me (although I would prefer right since I've been using the arrow keys on my right hand for my entire life) but whatever it is, don't make it WASD or OKL:! No one uses their ring finger for up/down and their pinky at all when uses arrow keys; WASD is only WASD because people use the pinky for ctrl and shift and whatnot.

About the Fn key placement, you're right--hitting it one-handed isn't great, and I'd have preferred that the Fn key take up some of the spacebar's space rather than having a full-size spacebar on a compact board. My thumb typically sits pretty close to the center of the spacebar anyway, which makes me think that I'd even more prefer to have Fn on BOTH sides.

But we can agree that the Ctrl-Alt-Del on LShift is awful, right? Hopefully the firmware is programmable or something?

[limmy]

Frankly, I am quite surprised there isn't a mass production keyboard with second layer programmable capabilities. Korean customs boards support the feature and some user made PS/2 to USB converter supports it too. But why can't companies make them? or.. why don't they?

We might see such features in next round of mini boards, only by then we should not have to worry about second layer layouts. I use autohotkey script, specifically modified Eezeboard script ( http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=10202.0 ), but sometimes mapping doesn't work once in a while when in repeated press. For instance, I mapped LWin + J to be Left arrow, but when I hold down the hotkey some times "j" is input, which make the script unusable for critical work.

Edit: the archived DIY thread's attachment was lost. If you are interested in the script, you can download it here. Luckily the author's webpage is still up.

[shibbyllama889]

Unfortunately, I think if you decide on reds you're going to have a hard time finding a Poker since they're not being produced anymore (from what I can hear here, anyway).

But how's this for a curveball--I actually never play games using default WASD bindings because I'm left handed! ha. I hamfist it out right-handed when I need to (crappy control customizations aren't uncommon) but when I do, I actually use ESDF instead of WASD because I found that WASD messes up my home row. So actually, either left or right would work for me (although I would prefer right since I've been using the arrow keys on my right hand for my entire life) but whatever it is, don't make it WASD or OKL:! No one uses their ring finger for up/down and their pinky at all when uses arrow keys; WASD is only WASD because people use the pinky for ctrl and shift and whatnot.

About the Fn key placement, you're right--hitting it one-handed isn't great, and I'd have preferred that the Fn key take up some of the spacebar's space rather than having a full-size spacebar on a compact board. My thumb typically sits pretty close to the center of the spacebar anyway, which makes me think that I'd even more prefer to have Fn on BOTH sides.

But we can agree that the Ctrl-Alt-Del on LShift is awful, right? Hopefully the firmware is programmable or something?

I don't think they intend you to leave your right hand on the home row as you use the arrow keys. You're right, nobody uses their rings finger for up/down or their pinky at all for arrow keys. They probably intend you to shift your hand over one so that reaching the Fn key is easier. To me, this sounds like you could get quicker at using the arrow keys this way than on a normal keyboard. There is a lot less movement, you just have to get used to holding down Fn. But you're right, if they shorted the spacebar and put a Fn key to the left of the right-Alt, that would have been pretty nice.

However, then the key layout would be even more different than it already is. The short Right-Shift and the ~ key being on R1 makes replacing the keycaps a pain. Although if you don't plan on doing that, then that's a non-issue.

I had never thought about Ctrl+Alt+Del being on Left-Shift as being a bad idea until the use case you brought up. It definitely sounds like that could cause issues. Although I bet you'll find that you hit Ctrl+Shift before hitting Fn most of the time. However, Shift+Arrow key is a commonly used text editing tool as well, and I don't see how this could work with the Fn layer on Left-Shift. Unless you have to press Fn before Left-Shift to access its Fn layer. I'm not too familiar with Fn layers since I never use them, but hopefully it is a little bit smart.

If you end up getting a Pure, I would be very interested in how using it for text editing goes. I've had my eye on the Pure for awhile. Although the biggest thing holding me back is the non-standard keycaps.

[bisl]

I had never thought about Ctrl+Alt+Del being on Left-Shift as being a bad idea until the use case you brought up. It definitely sounds like that could cause issues. Although I bet you'll find that you hit Ctrl+Shift before hitting Fn most of the time. However, Shift+Arrow key is a commonly used text editing tool as well, and I don't see how this could work with the Fn layer on Left-Shift. Unless you have to press Fn before Left-Shift to access its Fn layer. I'm not too familiar with Fn layers since I never use them, but hopefully it is a little bit smart.

That's correct--in order to do Fn-Shift-Home or something, you have to first hold Shift, and then apply Fn and whatever editing key you want to you. The whole thing is that this inverts the conceptual modes in play. On a 104 you have two sort of modes: typing mode with right hand on the keyboard, and editing mode with right hand on the arrow keys/editing keys. I still think in this way, and normally when I'm in "editing mode" now, I'm holding down the Fn key with my right hand shifted one key to the right (begrudgingly).

The part that throws this whole thing off is that due to the dependence of Shift on Fn itself, it creates a sort of sub-mode between editing (cursoring) and editing (selecting). As I said, when I'm editing I typically just have the Fn key held down the whole time, which yields a fluid arrow-key-mashing experience. Moving around is quite easy. However, once I get where I'm going, say I want to select a word (Ctrl-Shift-Left, Ctrl-Shift-Right) or select the line (Ctrl-Shift-Up, Ctrl-Shift-Down, Ctrl-Shift-Home, Ctrl-Shift-End). In order to do this, I now need to exit editing (cursoring) mode by letting up off of Fn, and then enter editing (selecting) mode by holding shift, and then re-holding Fn. Now I can select whatever it is I want, and then go back to editing (cursoring). It's kind of a disappointingly clunky experience considering that Ctrl-Alt-Delete could have been placed ALMOST LITERALLY ANYWHERE ELSE.

If you end up getting a Pure, I would be very interested in how using it for text editing goes. I've had my eye on the Pure for awhile. Although the biggest thing holding me back is the non-standard keycaps.

I actually got my Pure in the mail this week, so all of the stuff I write here is from experience rather than conjecture. I've dedicated myself to learning on it while moving my Das to the side--if maybe temporarily. But wait, the keycaps are nonstandard? I noticed that it was kind of hard to yank them off (I always remove the windows keys and the caps lock to make sure I really REALLY mean to press them when I do) but aside from that they seemed normal. Is it just the RShift or something? I had considered maybe replacing them eventually but I haven't bought the caps yet.

Also of note: so far it's been hard to execute alt-keycodes (such as Alt-0153 for ™) with the Pure. I don't quite know how to work the NumLk to get this done in the absence of a numpad.

[shibbyllama889]

That's correct--in order to do Fn-Shift-Home or something, you have to first hold Shift, and then apply Fn and whatever editing key you want to you. The whole thing is that this inverts the conceptual modes in play. On a 104 you have two sort of modes: typing mode with right hand on the keyboard, and editing mode with right hand on the arrow keys/editing keys. I still think in this way, and normally when I'm in "editing mode" now, I'm holding down the Fn key with my right hand shifted one key to the right (begrudgingly).

The part that throws this whole thing off is that due to the dependence of Shift on Fn itself, it creates a sort of sub-mode between editing (cursoring) and editing (selecting). As I said, when I'm editing I typically just have the Fn key held down the whole time, which yields a fluid arrow-key-mashing experience. Moving around is quite easy. However, once I get where I'm going, say I want to select a word (Ctrl-Shift-Left, Ctrl-Shift-Right) or select the line (Ctrl-Shift-Up, Ctrl-Shift-Down, Ctrl-Shift-Home, Ctrl-Shift-End). In order to do this, I now need to exit editing (cursoring) mode by letting up off of Fn, and then enter editing (selecting) mode by holding shift, and then re-holding Fn. Now I can select whatever it is I want, and then go back to editing (cursoring). It's kind of a disappointingly clunky experience considering that Ctrl-Alt-Delete could have been placed ALMOST LITERALLY ANYWHERE ELSE.

So I actually understand what you're saying here. I think, in the end, these small form factor keyboards are just not the best for text editing. You will always have the Fn layer playing an ugly role. However, I also think that people are great at adapting and if you keep with it you will learn all of the quirks and you have to potential to become quicker because everything is close. Although you may be screwed when you go back to a standard keyboard heh.

Another suggestion would be to get a 75% keyboard like a Race or Noppoo Choco Mini. They at least have dedicated arrow keys and (I think) Home and End keys.

I actually got my Pure in the mail this week, so all of the stuff I write here is from experience rather than conjecture. I've dedicated myself to learning on it while moving my Das to the side--if maybe temporarily. But wait, the keycaps are nonstandard? I noticed that it was kind of hard to yank them off (I always remove the windows keys and the caps lock to make sure I really REALLY mean to press them when I do) but aside from that they seemed normal. Is it just the RShift or something? I had considered maybe replacing them eventually but I haven't bought the caps yet.

Also of note: so far it's been hard to execute alt-keycodes (such as Alt-0153 for ™) with the Pure. I don't quite know how to work the NumLk to get this done in the absence of a numpad.

So I apparently can't read. But this is awesome feedback from an owner. I've been dying to know about stuff like this, but nobody really talks about it. As for the key caps, they are only slightly non-standard. Their connections with the switch stems is standard, so the hard yanking is not related. The issue is the RShift and the `~ key. The RShift is (I think) 1x1.75. This size isn't in a standard ANSI keycap set (which the rest of the layout is). I THINK this is an ISO sized RShift so you would have to get some kind of add-on package with the keycaps. Also, the profile of any `~ keycap you get will be wrong for the Pure. On the Pure, it is R1 while that key is usually R4. For reference: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/resources/keycap-layouthttp://www.wasdkeyboards.com/resources/keycap-layout
A lot of people use an arrow key in that spot.

[sth]

Aw, poor windows users still have to use ALT codes for special characters.

[bisl]

Aw, poor windows users still have to use ALT codes for special characters.

Does running linux or osx install a ™ key on your keyboard or something?

[sth]

™™™
opt+2

[bisl]

™™™
opt+2

I'm fairly sure there are more characters than you have keymask/key combinations. Just saying.

Now I will have no more of this OS trolling in my thread. I trust you can find the door, sir. Good day.

[naisanza]

I'd been looking at a Poker for a while, and originally held off because I couldn't find them in Reds; then, because of a PCB flexing issue highlighted by other people. Then I heard about the KBT Pure, and discovered that it seemed to be a good answer many of my keyboard wishes. Specifically, arrows on the right hand, unlike the Poker which has them on the left. I program for work, which for me means a ton of cursoring around with arrow keys, home/end, shift, ctrl, and all combinations of the above. During crunch time at work I've occasionally gotten a sore right shoulder, which I have given a lay man's diagnosis of too much home-row/arrow-key movement.

However, upon receiving my Pure yesterday, I discovered that I have made a couple of key oversights--specifically, the arrow keys are on OKL: rather than IJKL like I would expect--this means that in order to use them, I need to shift my hand to the right to position them on the arrow keys like I would if I were using the arrow pad on a normal 104. Moreover, to use any of the second-layer keys, the right hand has to shift to the right as well since reaching the Fn key with the right thumb is a bit of a stretch. It can be done, but it's not comfortable in the slightest without hand movement.

Furthermore--I'm kicking myself even harder for not noticing right away, but there's a Ctrl-Alt-Del on the second layer on LEFT-SHIFT! Which means if you ever want to do something like the very common select-word (ctrl-shift-leftarrow or ctrl-shift-rightarrow) the ctrl and shift keys must be pressed before the Fn key or else you get a surprise Ctrl-Alt-Del you didn't want. In my opinion, keymask keys are the last place something like this should reside.

Now, thanks to a helpful post from a different thread (http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/46017) I've been able to work out what the locks and switches do, and some of my concerns can be alleviated by giving myself a Fn on the left, at the cost of LAlt. However, without some reprogramming the arrows will remain in an awkward place and the LShift will be a minefield I'll need to learn to work around. Does anyone know if it's possible to reprogram the function layer on one of these things? I'd hate to think I'd just harvest this thing for switches eventually.

Hey! Where did you go to get your kbt? I just lost my order yesterday because someone had ordered the last kbt pure orange browns right before me. saddest day yesterday. Anyways. Any help you can provie will be great. Thanks!

[naisanza]

Unfortunately, I think if you decide on reds you're going to have a hard time finding a Poker since they're not being produced anymore (from what I can hear here, anyway).

But how's this for a curveball--I actually never play games using default WASD bindings because I'm left handed! ha. I hamfist it out right-handed when I need to (crappy control customizations aren't uncommon) but when I do, I actually use ESDF instead of WASD because I found that WASD messes up my home row. So actually, either left or right would work for me (although I would prefer right since I've been using the arrow keys on my right hand for my entire life) but whatever it is, don't make it WASD or OKL:! No one uses their ring finger for up/down and their pinky at all when uses arrow keys; WASD is only WASD because people use the pinky for ctrl and shift and whatnot.

About the Fn key placement, you're right--hitting it one-handed isn't great, and I'd have preferred that the Fn key take up some of the spacebar's space rather than having a full-size spacebar on a compact board. My thumb typically sits pretty close to the center of the spacebar anyway, which makes me think that I'd even more prefer to have Fn on BOTH sides.

But we can agree that the Ctrl-Alt-Del on LShift is awful, right? Hopefully the firmware is programmable or something?

I heard they started up production again because some new boards that are coming out uses reds.

[naisanza]

Frankly, I am quite surprised there isn't a mass production keyboard with second layer programmable capabilities. Korean customs boards support the feature and some user made PS/2 to USB converter supports it too. But why can't companies make them? or.. why don't they?

I think just more work to debug.

[bisl]

Where did you go to get your kbt?

I got mine from qtan's site on Vendio--check the vendor forums!

[bisl]

Frankly, I am quite surprised there isn't a mass production keyboard with second layer programmable capabilities. Korean customs boards support the feature

Can you name some of these korean boards that support full programmability?

[laffindude]

I dislike the function layer of both Poker and Pure. I don't see the utility of having some of those shortcut keys. Own both, never use the function layer except for the F keys.

[shibbyllama889]

So I'm bringing this thread back from the dead. OP, did you ever find a way to reprogram the firmware on the Pure? I ended up getting a Pure and have been using it for some text editing. The arrow keys are fine for me but the ctrl+alt+esc on fn+left shift is quite annoying. I have to do a bit of a finger dance to briefly let go of fn before pressing left shift. I'm curious of you've found any more information.

[laffindude]

Not going to happen. Your best bet is GH60

[shibbyllama889]

Not going to happen. Your best bet is GH60

Yeah that's what I figured. Ah well I still like the Pure.

[bisl]

So I'm bringing this thread back from the dead. OP, did you ever find a way to reprogram the firmware on the Pure? I ended up getting a Pure and have been using it for some text editing. The arrow keys are fine for me but the ctrl+alt+esc on fn+left shift is quite annoying. I have to do a bit of a finger dance to briefly let go of fn before pressing left shift. I'm curious of you've found any more information.

Sadly I did not, however if you're looking for programmability on a less-than-100% board, I'd recommend trying to get in on bpiphany's Filco MJ-2 TKL controller. I'm waiting for mine, but hopefully it'll be all I've ever hoped for and dreamt of etc.

[trentva]

hope to own a kbt someday

[fabioruxo]

Sorry for arriving late at the party :-)
I did have the same exact issue with the left shift key on my KBT and it really drove me crazy. On a mac the solution is pretty simple: download PCKeyboardHack and map the Left Shift to the Right Shift keycode... et voilà! Works like a charm! The KBT is nice... I do agree that the function layer is sometimes a pain but I develop with this keyboard every day and, after some getting used to it, it will work great...