What's the state of small keyboards?

[IBI]

My raptor gaming K1 with linear cherry MXs has got a faulty S key after just a year of use and I never managed to get on with the linear keys so I'm looking to replace it. My ideal keyboard would:

* Be as small as possible while still being comfortable.
* Have a feel similar to that of the Dell AT102W (black alps)
* Have 7-key rollover
* Use a UK layout
* Have volume keys
* Connect using USB

In roughly that order.

The only thing that comes close is the HHKB professional, and I still can't bring myself to spend that much with it's layout compromises. The HHKB Lite at £75 is about the limit of what I want to spend at the moment.

I am considering the shortboard so I'd like some opinions of that if anyone has tried it. I'd also love to hear any suggestions of other small keyboards that have an acceptable or good typing feel; the size and feel are my main concerns, layout is secondary.

p.s. It's nice to see how busy the forum is after a year, it looks like there's hope for us discriminating keyboarders yet.

[FKSSR]

Well, the ABS M1 is black alps, but it has the numpad and arrow keys.  I assume that if that was an option, you'd probably already have it.

The shortboard has membrane keys, but the lefty one has mechanical.  I couldn't use it, though, because it has that short Backspace key.

I'm personally waiting for DSI to release the Modular PC keyboard (modeled after the Modular Mac board).

[lowpoly]

What's the state of small keyboards?

I work as fast as I can. :smile:

[xyzzy]

lam47 is selling his G80-1856 with brown switches in the marketplace section, maybe it could be an option?

Same board as the Raptor Gaming K1 (except it's PS/2 and has no USB hub), UK layout, brown Cherry switches (similar to the black alps in feel but quite a bit lighter).

Not sure about the 7-key rollover though, you should ask him.

[Mercen_505]

I am considering the shortboard so I'd like some opinions of that if anyone has tried it

Heh, I just went to the website for that. I must express major, I repeat, major lulz at the "lefty" keyboard they have. As a lefty I find that design appalling as well as counter productive. The modern keyboard is already rife with aspects that automatically favor left handed users

/end micro-rant

[FKSSR]

Heh, I just went to the website for that. I must express major, I repeat, major lulz at the "lefty" keyboard they have. As a lefty I find that design appalling as well as counter productive. The modern keyboard is already rife with aspects that automatically favor left handed users

/end micro-rant

I agree.  I was looking at the lefty since I am a righty.

[rdjack21]

I purchased one of these:

I don't have it yet but should be here any day. It has white alps. The layout is a little problematic but for what I'm going to use it for that should be fine. Any ways I got it from here http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/ . They still have 1 NIB one and 3-4 refurbished ones. I'll write up a little something when I get mine in.

[DesktopJinx]

Is that a SIIG MiiniTouch? I have one of those at the old office! I think I still have a couple NIB and in shrink-wrap somewhere. I guess I should try to dig them up at some point before some well-meaning bozo throws them out.

[rdjack21]

Is that a SIIG MiiniTouch? I have one of those at the old office! I think I still have a couple NIB and in shrink-wrap somewhere. I guess I should try to dig them up at some point before some well-meaning bozo throws them out.

Yes it is. But from my understanding only the early models have white alps in them. The one I have coming is one of the early models with the alps switches in it. I'm not sure what the newer models have in them.

[IBI]

Well, the ABS M1 is black alps, but it has the numpad and arrow keys.  I assume that if that was an option, you'd probably already have it.

Ooh, I didn't know about that one. If it was going for a full sized keyboard  then that'd be a real contender with the Dell AT102W.

lam47 is selling his G80-1856 with brown switches in the marketplace section, maybe it could be an option?

Same board as the Raptor Gaming K1 (except it's PS/2 and has no USB hub), UK layout, brown Cherry switches (similar to the black alps in feel but quite a bit lighter).

Having tried the K1 for a year I feel that that design is still too long for me, but thanks for the suggestion.

I agree.  I was looking at the lefty since I am a righty.

Yeah, I thought about that one since the reason I want a short one is to be able to have the letters keys and my mouse close together so I don't have to lean over and type or shuffle my mouse out of the way every time. Last time I looked at it though there were rumours they'd replaced the mechanical switches with membranes but if it's actually being listed with them I shall reconsider.

My other main concern is what it's like for gaming. Unfortunately I don't have a small enough keyboard to try gaming with the WASD keys in the position that they'd be in with that keyboard (without my mouse being pushed out of reach). Does anyone have any experience gaming on a 'left-handed' keyboard? (I agree that it should really be labled right handed)

I purchased one of these:I don't have it yet but should be here any day. It has white alps. The layout is a little problematic but for what I'm going to use it for that should be fine. Any ways I got it from here http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/ . They still have 1 NIB one and 3-4 refurbished ones. I'll write up a little something when I get mine in.

I can imagine the nightmare trying to hit that right shift will be. I shall look out for your thoughts though. Is that a blank key I can see? I wonder if it would be possible to bind that to the £ symbol (which is useful this side of the pond, especially without a numpad to do the keycode for it).

[FKSSR]

I'm also interested in reading the review.  The small shift key wouldn't be a problem for me, since I hit the right-shift on the left edge anyway.

I like white-alps as much as I do BS, right now, so those are the two kinds of switches I wouldn't mind having more of.

[IBI]

I should add that I'm quite happy to use good rubber dome keyboards. I'm using a 1993 gateway one now that uses rubber domes and plungers and, while it's not as nice as black alps, I'd take it over linear cherry MXs any day.

Also, importing from the US looks like it'll cost me ~$20 delivery and 15% import VAT of the cost of the keyboard. So around $50 USD upper limit is about what I'm looking at if I import. Although I'd considering paying more if it came close.

How much did you pay for the minitouch rdjack21?

EDIT: I knew I'd forgotton something, volume keys would be nice as well because I use headphones.

[huha]

I should add that I'm quite happy to use good rubber dome keyboards. I'm using a 1993 gateway one now that uses rubber domes and plungers and, while it's not as nice as black alps, I'd take it over linear cherry MXs or buckling springs any day.

Also, importing from the US looks like it'll cost me ~$20 delivery and 15% import VAT of the cost of the keyboard. So around $50 USD upper limit is about what I'm looking at if I import. Although I'd considering paying more if it came close.

How much did you pay for the minitouch rdjack21?

$20 delivery? Where do you live? Shipping to continental Europe is more like $40, so I don't think there'd be that much of a difference.
By the way, your requirements are unrealistic. USB supports only 6-key rollover if you're not counting modifier keys.

-huha

[IBI]

$20 delivery? Where do you live? Shipping to continental Europe is more like $40, so I don't think there'd be that much of a difference.
By the way, your requirements are unrealistic. USB supports only 6-key rollover if you're not counting modifier keys.

-huha

I'm in the UK, I was going to by the shipping prices of the HHKB Pro I looked at, am I unlikely to be able to get most keyboards shipped for that?

I thought USB supported 6 keys at once, not 5? The rollover number is the minimum number of keys you can press down that will cause rollover (i.e. one or more keys not registering), so if you can press any six keys down with them all registering it's 7-key rollover. Or have we standardised on a new definition?

Whether it's 5 or 6 doesn't really bother me though, as long as it's greater than the usual 2 I'll be happy.

[Manyak]

I'm in the UK, I was going to by the shipping prices of the HHKB Pro I looked at, am I unlikely to be able to get most keyboards shipped for that?

I thought USB supported 6 keys at once, not 5? The rollover number is the minimum number of keys you can press down that will cause rollover (i.e. one or more keys not registering), so if you can press any six keys down with them all registering it's 7-key rollover. Or have we standardised on a new definition?

Whether it's 5 or 6 doesn't really bother me though, as long as it's greater than the usual 2 I'll be happy.

However you want to call rollover, USB supports 6 regular keys + 4 modifiers (ctrl, alt, etc).

[DesktopJinx]

Yes it is. But from my understanding only the early models have white alps in them.

The MicroTouch Plus (which is apparently still sold) seems to be rubber-dome. The ones I have are definitely quite clicky -- I insisted on it when I requested them. I should probably unload one of the shrink-wrapped ones, it's just taking up space...

[huha]

The MiniTouch looks quite interesting (I'm searching for a smallish clicky keyboard as well), so I asked about the price and shipping cost.

The new one costs $125, the refurbished cost $75. International shipping is about $40 for priority, $45 for express.

-huha

[IBI]

The MiniTouch looks quite interesting (I'm searching for a smallish clicky keyboard as well), so I asked about the price and shipping cost.

The new one costs $125, the refurbished cost $75. International shipping is about $40 for priority, $45 for express.

-huha

What about normal non-priority non-express shipping?

So £90 for a refurbished and £115 for a new one using priority shipping. (plus whatever a decent ps/2 to usb converter would cost)

No suggestions for good rubber dome keyboards yet? I know there's at least one person on here apart from me who doesn't mind them.

[cchan]

What about normal non-priority non-express shipping?

So £90 for a refurbished and £115 for a new one using priority shipping. (plus whatever a decent ps/2 to usb converter would cost)

No suggestions for good rubber dome keyboards yet? I know there's at least one person on here apart from me who doesn't mind them.

Oh! IBM ThinkPad UltraNav keyboard. Same keyboard module as a ThinkPad, so it's pretty great.

[rdjack21]

Well I got the MiniTouch in today It is quite small but it does not have N-Rollover. On the home row keys I can get all 4 of them but on other rows I can only get 2 or 3 key roll over and that is with it pluged into a ps/2 port.

The feel of the board is great so far. I want to type on it a little more before I come to any conclusions on how well I like the key feel. But it does feel slightly lighter than a BS but just as loud. So far the key layout has not really been a issue other than the placement of the FN key. It is to the left of the left Ctrl key which is where I expect the Ctrl key to be but it is a small key so I only have to adjust a little. Even the right shift is not causing me problems because it is in the right place but it is smaller. Any ways after I type on it a little more I will do up a review.

[bhtooefr]

Filco Zero Tenkeyless, maybe?

1. Meets that (standard key spacing)
2. White Alps, although they're fake simplified, but they'll feel the same as black fake simplified, just sound different
3. Unsure on rollover, I suspect it's 6-key
4. US or Japanese layouts only, unfortunately.
5. No volume keys.
6. USB (if it's NKRO, it'll also have a USB to PS/2 adapter and speak both natively.

[huha]

How do fake simplified white Alps compare to old white Alps in terms of sound and feel?

-huha

[IBI]

Oh! IBM ThinkPad UltraNav keyboard. Same keyboard module as a ThinkPad, so it's pretty great.

I can't even find a picture of the UK layout version, and it's £80-90 in shops. Is it really that good?

Filco Zero Tenkeyless, maybe?

1. Meets that (standard key spacing)
2. White Alps, although they're fake simplified, but they'll feel the same as black fake simplified, just sound different
3. Unsure on rollover, I suspect it's 6-key
4. US or Japanese layouts only, unfortunately.
5. No volume keys.
6. USB (if it's NKRO, it'll also have a USB to PS/2 adapter and speak both natively.

I had noticed that, but I'd assumed it was the same size as my K1, looking at the dimensions it's actually a good 5cm shorter.

The only place I can see selling the XM White one rather than the MX ones was Benippon and they're backordered, is there another supplier?

EDIT: Looking at the tenkeyless (argh engrish) further I don't see any FN key or numpad markings. Is the * key gone for good (short of alt + 0...) or is there some hidden way to get it?

[FKSSR]

EliteKeyboards.com is trying to get the "white xm" Filcos.  I was told that they may have them in a month or so...  I'm waiting...

[itlnstln]

How do fake simplified white Alps compare to old white Alps in terms of sound and feel?
 
-huha

I haven't tried the white switches, but the blacks feel pretty similar, if not more tactile.

[cchan]

I can't even find a picture of the UK layout version, and it's £80-90 in shops. Is it really that good?

It's about $50-$100 in the US depending on if you buy it on ebay or amazon.com. Haven't looked anywhere else. No word on the UK layout as I only use US layout.
I think my ThinkPad keyboard is pretty good. It's the best laptop keyboard I've used.

[bhtooefr]

EDIT: Looking at the tenkeyless (argh engrish) further I don't see any FN key or numpad markings. Is the * key gone for good (short of alt + 0...) or is there some hidden way to get it?

Shift-8, which is where it's always been on US layout keyboards. (Since before numpads existed, in fact.)

[lowpoly]

Got my Samsung Q1Ultra keyboard yesterday. Sorry for the bad pic. It's about the size of the G84 but only about half the height. It comes with a pointing stick. The fixed cable is only 31cm long. 83 keys.

Pros: As flat as it can get. Pointing stick. Volume (+, -, mute) and standby controls. Shiny bezel. Although it has 9 rubber feet it has a sturdy stand. Scissor keys work well if you like them. Sturdy construction.

Cons: The shiny bezel is as high as the keys. That means the keys, when pressed, go under the bezel height. This can be irritating with the lower row, especiall when using the space bar with your thumb. Sometimes I hit the bezel before the key is pressed.

Key pitch is slightly less than the ususal 19.05mm.

There is no driver available for the pointing stick. This is probably part of the Q1 Ultra UMPC drivers for which this 'board is made.

The <> key to the left of the right shift key is the one I hit when I want to press shift. I should have gotten the ANSI version.

The # and + keys are smaller than average. Probably because the keyboard width shouldn't exceed the width of the Q1 Ultra too much.

Conclusion: Nice small board with pointing stick. Some of the disadvantages result from it being an UMPC add-on.

[kyamei]

How do fake simplified white Alps compare to old white Alps in terms of sound and feel?

-huha

I just got a board with real white alps yesterday and I've had a few boards with fake whites for a few months.  I think the fakes are a bit more tactile and a bit clickier.  Thats comparing 2 Focus FK-2001's, one with reals and one with fakes.  I swapped the click leafs from the real whites into my AT101W, since I hated the feel of the black alps, but preferred the layout and lighter springs on the Dell.  Still can't say I'm too fond of Alps switches.

[IBI]

It's about $50-$100 in the US depending on if you buy it on ebay or amazon.com. Haven't looked anywhere else. No word on the UK layout as I only use US layout.
I think my ThinkPad keyboard is pretty good. It's the best laptop keyboard I've used.

How does it compare to a good desktop keyboard? The only laptop keyboards I've tried are an eee 4G, an Acer 7520 and an Apple Aluminium Keyboard and none of them were particulaly good so I've no idea how much improvement a low profile keyboard can have.

Shift-8, which is where it's always been on US layout keyboards. (Since before numpads existed, in fact.)

Right, I'll go and hide in a corner now.

Conclusion: Nice small board with pointing stick. Some of the disadvantages result from it being an UMPC add-on.

How does it compare with the G84 for typing?

I just got a board with real white alps yesterday and I've had a few boards with fake whites for a few months.  I think the fakes are a bit more tactile and a bit clickier.

What do you mean by tactile and more clicker? Harder to push down? Sharper drop-off? Easier to avoid bottoming out? Louder? Higher Pitched?

[lowpoly]

How does it compare with the G84 for typing?

I'm not too fond of the ML switch. It doesn't like to be hit at the corner. Maybe because my G84 didn't get much use yet. No problems with scissors here because that's what the scissors are for.

Travel seems to be half as much on the Samsung. I didn't measure though. As soon as you're beyond the tactile part of the curve you'll bottom out.

[huha]

How does it compare to a good desktop keyboard? The only laptop keyboards I've tried are an eee 4G, an Acer 7520 and an Apple Aluminium Keyboard and none of them were particulaly good so I've no idea how much improvement a low profile keyboard can have.

It depends. I use a thinkpad as my primary computer, so naturally, I have to use the thinkpad keyboard a lot when on the go/working in bed (there's NOTHING comparable to working in bed, really. If only the keyboard was better!). As far as notebook keyboards go, it's one of the better ones, if not the best. It's remarkably crisp and somewhat tactile, yet fairly light. Typing on it is definitely acceptable even if you're a BS user (you'll hopelessly bottom out, though, but there's not much else to do when using notebook keyboards). I don't know how the desktop keyboard compares, but the notebook keyboard is really good, at least as far as notebook keyboards go. In comparison with a BS board or Cherry MX, it just sucks.

What do you mean by tactile and more clicker? Harder to push down? Sharper drop-off? Easier to avoid bottoming out? Louder? Higher Pitched?

Clicky keyswitches should ideally have an infinitely steep drop-off. In reality, I think BS achieves this best--spring buckling is incredibly fast and in BS 'boards, the spring provides all tactility whatsoever, so when it buckles, there's nothing to hold the key up any longer; Cherry's MX and Alps with click leaves seem to have clickiness added as a bonus and not a design feature like BS, so I reckon their click is not as "ideal" as could be.
I've typed on some old white Alps (I think they're real, but I'm not quite sure--I don't know the keyboard model right now, but I remember it was made in 1990) and they feel just great. Not as great as BS, but still the next best thing I've ever typed on.
I'd be really interested in a Filco Zero if their XM switches are at least somewhat comparable; given me liking BS, I don't think I'd be too happy with a brown MX board.


-huha

[CrapTypist]

uh, well, there is this (click da pic if you dare):

ze goggles!!  Zey do nussink!!!  Iyeeeeeee!

[FKSSR]

That guy is reeeeaaaally small, because the "standard sized keyboard" looks ginormous in front of him!  His right arm is fully stretched out. haha

[Manyak]

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8778/cityoflostchildren6wsbb6.jpg

Zis iz an INZULT to République française....

- Ripster

Tu n'est pas un robot vraiment! Je suis le seul robot dans ce point!

[FKSSR]

The movie The City of the Lost Children was awesome, though!

[IBI]

In comparison with a BS board or Cherry MX, it just sucks.

Given that I could get a minitouch or filco zero for the sort of price Lenovo are asking I think I'll give it a miss, but thanks for the suggestion.

Clicky keyswitches should ideally have an infinitely steep drop-off. In reality, I think BS achieves this best--spring buckling is incredibly fast and in BS 'boards, the spring provides all tactility whatsoever, so when it buckles, there's nothing to hold the key up any longer; Cherry's MX and Alps with click leaves seem to have clickiness added as a bonus and not a design feature like BS, so I reckon their click is not as "ideal" as could be.

I have to say I couldn't feel any difference in the resistance before and after the click on my model M.

Ah, this is a little better.  English version.    Too bad distribution seems to suck or I'd try one.   I've never understood why the the thumb is so underutilized in typing. (Maybe with this keyboard I'd find out why ... quickly.)

That's the sort of innovation I've been looking for! Seperate keys for +, - , /, * and =! A delete key on the same line as backspace! They've even labled print screen more sensibly for modern computers. While it's got a fair dollop of wierdness I'd love to try one for a while.

The specifications say key travel is 3.4mm and force is 55g, does that sound familiar to anyone?


UPDATE: Well with the lack of any place to buy the Minimax and the high price of the other options I've decided to go for the Shortboard. I know it won't be of interest to anyone but I'll post some impressions of it when it arrives.

[IBI]

Curious if you got your Shortboard?

Yeah, I got it yesterday and I'll post a review in a few days when I've gotton more used to it.

The keys aren't luxury even for rubber domes, they can be said to be usable at best, and the keycaps aren't very nice which doesn't help. I do think I'll like the small size though.

Model number is RBK-371UP, searching shows that it appears to be made by Kyerim Industrial Co.

I'll probably keep it for a few months and see how the situation develops; allow a couple of others to review the fake-alps Filco Zero,  see if LinuxEmporium or any other UK shop gets in a stock of HHKB professionals and see if Unicomp comes out with their long awaited new mighty mouse.