Are SMK Montery Blue switches actual Alps? How do they compare with Alps Blues?

[RoflCopter4]

I got my first "Alps" board the other day, a Chicony 5181 with SMK Montery Blue switches. It was used, of course. When I got it the keys were almost all caked in some kind of yellow-orange filth and decades worth of what I hope were pet hairs and assorted garbage had collected under them. I removed all the keys, doused them with a flamethrower, gave them a spit shine with some hydrochloric acid, and attacked the keyboard with the fires of Mordor for a few further hours before deciding that it was ready for use.

On that note, I love this board. I have to say that I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the reasoning behind the bigass enter key and the short backspace; it just seems so stupid and pointless. Nonetheless, aside from that, I love this board. The keys are certainly no buckling springs, but they are the best non buckling springs I have ever used by far. Not that I've tested very many things - in fact I've only tried blue and brown Cherry switches, so that statement is a bit bald. In any event these switches put Cherry to shame. The click is just so much more... clicky. It's very pleasent.

However, there isn't a ton of information out there on Alps and Alps like switches, and what is out there is often contradictory and confusing. Are the SMK Montery swithes made by Alps? I've seen claims that they are not compatible, which would imply that they are not. Are they therefore fundementally different? Complicated Blue Alps switches are usually cited as being the "best" Alps switch out there (and unfortunately one of the rarest and most expensive by far). How do these switches compare?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

However, there isn't a ton of information out there on Alps and Alps like switches, and what is out there is often contradictory and confusing.

ORLY?

Regular ("complicated") Alps switches: Alps SKCL/SKCM series
Simplified Alps switches: Alps SKBL/SKBM series

There are a lot more switches made by Alps Electric Co. but those two series are the ones people mean when they say "Alps". An "Alps" switch by definition has to have been made by Alps or a subsidiary.

SMK second generation, including the "Monterey" switches: SMK second generation
SMK Alps-mount (AKA "Monterey" when blue): SMK Alps mount

No part numbers or series names are known for the SMK switches.

The most common Alps clones are:

Hua-Jie AK series
Xiang Min KSB series (AKA "XM")

[fohat.digs]

Many people (including me) really like the SMK "blue Monterey" switches, as well as other SMK switches of that generation.

They are very nice and somewhat similar to blue Alps but lighter in both feel and sound.

The keycaps are compatible with Alps caps but the switches and mounting pins are not. They are not found in any high-quality boards which is unfortunate. I agree that the bigass Enter and small Backspace are pretty much a deal-killer.

[Findecanor]

I have to say that I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the reasoning behind the bigass enter key and the short backspace; it just seems so stupid and pointless.

There are research papers from the '70s that concluded that of all the types, the "bigass" Enter key is the easiest to hit with the fewest errors.
It also works for people who are used to either ISO or ANSI, so by using "bigass" Enter there are fewer parts that need to be made different for different markets.
However, having a small Backspace is universally considered to be worse to type on than having a wide one.

Are the SMK Montery swithes made by Alps? I've seen claims that they are not compatible, which would imply that they are not.

They can use the same keycaps as Alps, but there are several other vintage mechanical switches that can also do that.
Similarly, there are other mechanical switches that are compatible with Cherry keycaps.
And then there are several types of rubber dome switches with sliders that are compatible with either.

[Puddsy]

Blue ALPS are miles better. I hate Monterey blues

[RoflCopter4]

I have to say that I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the reasoning behind the bigass enter key and the short backspace; it just seems so stupid and pointless.

There are research papers from the '70s that concluded that of all the types, the "bigass" Enter key is the easiest to hit with the fewest errors.
It also works for people who are used to either ISO or ANSI, so by using "bigass" Enter there are fewer parts that need to be made different for different markets.
However, having a small Backspace is universally considered to be worse to type on than having a wide one.

Are the SMK Montery swithes made by Alps? I've seen claims that they are not compatible, which would imply that they are not.

They can use the same keycaps as Alps, but there are several other vintage mechanical switches that can also do that.
Similarly, there are other mechanical switches that are compatible with Cherry keycaps.
And then there are several types of rubber dome switches with sliders that are compatible with either.

But why would it even be all that important for it to be easy to hit the enter key? Of course if the key is huge it will be easy to press. How often were people pressing enter that they felt the need to go out of their way to make it easy to press?

Blue ALPS are miles better. I hate Monterey blues

Any reason why?

[fohat.digs]

But why would it even be all that important for it to be easy to hit the enter key?

"Easy" is whatever you have become accustomed to.

Using a different layout, or replacing oversize keys with single size will quickly demonstrate how you target your keys.

If you strike Enter at the lower right side, then any Enter configuration will be acceptable. If you strike the right side of Backspace, a small one is acceptable.

Using non-standard-ANSI layout keyboards has shown me that I strike Backspace and Right Shift on the left side (and Left Shift on the right side, for that matter), which are spaces occupied by other keys in many of these older layouts (and ISO, of course).

Make the change and you will eventually re-train your muscle memory.

[Puddsy]

Blue ALPS are miles better. I hate Monterey blues

Any reason why?

They feel wet. I might've gotten some bad ones, but I've typed on a few boards with them. No likey.

[RoflCopter4]

Blue ALPS are miles better. I hate Monterey blues

Any reason why?

They feel wet. I might've gotten some bad ones, but I've typed on a few boards with them. No likey.

I'm not really sure what you mean by wet. Were they mushy? Having never typed on a waterlogged keyboard I really don't have a frame of reference for what it might be like when "wet".

[fohat.digs]

They feel wet. I might've gotten some bad ones, but I've typed on a few boards with them.

I am not the only one who is mystified every time you post this observation.

I would describe the blue SMKs (and that whole generation of clicky SMKs in general) as "light" and "airy" but I would also like to hear another descriptor besides "wet" if you can think of one.

[jacobolus]

I think people mostly dislike SMK switches because they come in keyboards with crappy thin keycaps and poorly constructed cases.

[jacobolus]

I have to say that I can't for the life of me wrap my head around the reasoning behind the bigass enter key and the short backspace; it just seems so stupid and pointless.

Blame IBM, just like for most other elements of keyboard design. In the case of the “bigass enter”, the IBM AT keyboard is to blame.

[jacobolus]

Complicated Blue Alps switches are usually cited as being the "best" Alps switch out there (and unfortunately one of the rarest and most expensive by far). How do these switches compare?

There have been loads of threads which covered this topic, most recently https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65849.0. You could do a search and read through some of them.

I don’t find SMK clicky switches & blue Alps switches to be all that similar, beyond both being clicky switches of a roughly comparable stiffness. SMK switches are more tactile & not as smooth, have an actuation point further into the stroke, and make a more echoey sound.

I quite like both types of switches though.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

OK, just connected up my SMK-made Tulip keyboard (this might be the first time that I've ever typed on it since I got it over a year ago). It's not rock solid – you can for example push down the case by something like 0.5 mm (hard to measure, but it flexes a lot more than a Filco.

These are the tactile switches (with SMK's own inverse cross keycaps), and they're not bad. They're firm and pretty crisp, and definitely tactile. From memory I would say that they're stiffer than Matias quiet click switches. Matias Quiet click is what MX brown should have been (roughly the same weight, but far more tactile); SMK 2nd generation tactile is similar but heavier and more meaty — it's a tactile switch for people who consider MX brown to be too light. It's a bit like Cherry ML if it were smoother and had more travel.

I do find that the 1.5 u mods have binding trouble, and I don't know whether that's just the condition of this keyboard or a design flaw, as nobody else has ever found this to be the case. The switches might need reconditioning, as they don't feel like they're quite in the best of shape to me.

Bigass enter is a design-by-committee key: instead of choosing horizontal or vertical enter, it just takes up way too much space at a cost of having to find room for the key it displaced, leading to a 1 u backspace, or a key between ctrl and alt that there's no longer room for now that the Windows key took its place (so you're back to 1 u backspace).

I did have a clicky SMK Monterey keyboard, but for some silly reason I sold it off before I'd ever even typed on it properly! I never gave it a good test in the short time that I had it, although I did confirm that it worked via my laptop (which had a PS/2 port on it).

[dante]

I think people mostly dislike SMK switches because they come in keyboards with crappy thin keycaps and poorly constructed cases.

The SMK White Alps in the Apple IIGS are fantastic and the keyboard itself is constructed very well.

[RoflCopter4]

Complicated Blue Alps switches are usually cited as being the "best" Alps switch out there (and unfortunately one of the rarest and most expensive by far). How do these switches compare?

There have been loads of threads which covered this topic, most recently https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65849.0. You could do a search and read through some of them.

I don’t find SMK clicky switches & blue Alps switches to be all that similar, beyond both being clicky switches of a roughly comparable stiffness. SMK switches are more tactile & not as smooth, have an actuation point further into the stroke, and make a more echoey sound.

I quite like both types of switches though.

I read all of the threads I found with a quick search. They didn't answer my specific question so I started a thread asking it.

So basically the consensus is that the SMK switches are definitely not true Alps switches, that they are pleasantly tactile and clickey but in a way subtly different from any true Alps switch, and are overall considered very nice but suffer from being used in nasty cheap boards with irritating layouts. To be honest I don't see what all the fuss is about in regards to the boards feeling cheap. I'd rather type on this Chicony 5181 than on any board with Cherry switches that I've ever used, and it's a stinky stupid looking piece of crap with keys that feel like garbage. (note: I am to blame for the stink, I thought it would be a good idea to clean the board with acetone)

[fohat.digs]

Alps is (was) a company that manufactured keyboard switches.
SMK is (was) a company that manufactured keyboard switches.
Some SMK switches resembled Alps switches.
What part of this is difficult to understand?

One of the best characteristics of Alps switches is that they actuate high up, and the SMKs actuate farther down, like most other switches.

Personally, I like the SMK switches very much, but some people do not. I think that it is very unfortunate that they are only found in cheap-o keyboards. I would like to try them in a substantial keyboard with good quality caps, but that is not likely to happen.

[RoflCopter4]

Alps is (was) a company that manufactured keyboard switches.
SMK is (was) a company that manufactured keyboard switches.
Some SMK switches resembled Alps switches.
What part of this is difficult to understand?

One of the best characteristics of Alps switches is that they actuate high up, and the SMKs actuate farther down, like most other switches.

Personally, I like the SMK switches very much, but some people do not. I think that it is very unfortunate that they are only found in cheap-o keyboards. I would like to try them in a substantial keyboard with good quality caps, but that is not likely to happen.

Uh, nothing. I just wanted to sum everything in a post and thank everyone for the answers. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I didn't mean to seem patronizing.

On that note, has Matias ever indicated that they might sell Alps style keycaps? Are theirs any good? I've never used them.

[jacobolus]

On that note, has Matias ever indicated that they might sell Alps style keycaps? Are theirs any good? I've never used them.

Matias currently is selling printed or blank ABS Alps-mount keycaps (or will very soon at any rate). They’re nicer than the ones on the Chicony boards, but nothing amazing. They just get them from some Chinese OEM, I don’t remember who.

They have stated that they want to make their own tooling for PBT keycaps, but it’s expensive and takes a while to get right. Their new ErgoPro keyboard used PBT for the keycaps on its bottom row, which are all non-standard shapes.

By the way, you could answer this question by searching for “matias keycaps”: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45483