Why Tenkeyless? Let's get rid of the arrow keys & Pageup/Pagedown cluster cluster

[shrap]

Am I the only one who uses the numeric keypad in "num lock off" mode? I got into the habit with my Northgate Evolution, in which the arrow keys in the inverted-T configuration and the home/end/pageup/pagedown clusters are in between the arrow key halves, so basically impossible to use without looking down. The arrow keys feel more natural when they're centered in the middle of the board, instead of being shoved all the way down at the edge, and I have easy access to pageup and pagedown. Plus, if I really need to type out some numbers, I still have a number pad just a toggle switch away.

The Microsoft Natural Keyboard Elite that I used for years had a pretty screwed up arrow key and key cluster, and I survived just fine. I think these keys are the first ones to get rearranged, so it's kind of surprising they're chosen instead of the numeric keypad (which is less likely to get rearranged) to stay with the board.

The only problem I've had is pushing alt-home instead of alt-left to go back in my browser, thus reopening my home pages. I don't think a lot of people use that key combination anyway.

So I ask, why are we getting rid of the numeric keypad and leaving the quaint arrow keys and home/end/pageup/pagedown cluster, when we can remove the latter and have a keyboard with the width of a tenkeyless (ok, it's one key wider) and still have a numeric keypad, thus getting the best of both worlds? Has any keyboard manufacturer tried this and had it fail miserably?

[shrap]

heh, "cluster cluster". Got carried away editing, and I can't change the title!

[wellington1869]

I totally agree that arrow clusters should be either squished in with alphabet cluster like on laptops or integrated into home row like hhkb. They're a complete waste of resources and material, like the jonas brothers. (;-D )

numpads should remain I think, and slimmed down a bit and moved to the left side (or avail as modular so you can choose which side to put them)

[timw4mail]

Really, I'd rather keep the full layout and get rid of the "lock" keys.

I never use the numpad area for anything other than numbers, so I don't see the need for Numlock.

Caps Lock...well, why is it there?

Scroll Lock... How often do you need to stop the text from scrolling in a terminal?

I just don't like compact boards...:ohwell:

[wellington1869]

Really, I'd rather keep the full layout and get rid of the "lock" keys.

I never use the numpad area for anything other than numbers, so I don't see the need for Numlock.

Caps Lock...well, why is it there?

Scroll Lock... How often do you need to stop the text from scrolling in a terminal?

I just don't like compact boards...:ohwell:

capslock should be taken out back and shot. I mean seriously, there should be nationwide conferences by all major computer manufacturers on the topic of the capslock and how to collectively agree on moving it out of its prime real estate its taking up.

[timw4mail]

capslock should be taken out back and shot. I mean seriously, there should be nationwide conferences by all major computer manufacturers on the topic of the capslock and how to collectively agree on moving it out of its prime real estate its taking up.

Don't we already know what goes there?


Why its the control key, or meta key!

[itlnstln]

capslock should be taken out back and shot. I mean seriously, there should be nationwide conferences by all major computer manufacturers on the topic of the capslock and how to collectively agree on moving it out of its prime real estate its taking up.

 
I use the CapsLock key quite often... and the page nav cluster, the arrows and the numpad.  We've had this discussion before.  Full layout, FTW.  Get a bigger desk and stop being a wuss.
 
Pansies.
 

[bitflipper]

I totally agree that arrow clusters should be either squished in with alphabet cluster like on laptops or integrated into home row like hhkb. They're a complete waste of resources and material, like the jonas brothers. (;-D )

numpads should remain I think, and slimmed down a bit and moved to the left side (or avail as modular so you can choose which side to put them)

Agree about the useless jonas brothers!  Ever considered one of these?

[Shawn Stanford]

Discussions like this are why I'm going to be hanging on to my Model Ms until I'm in my grave. I'm a mainframe programmer and a touch typist (old school trained on a manual typewriter back in 7th grade). I navigate my 3270 session using arrow and PF keys and the 'Insert-Home-Delete-End' keys, the mouse and the scroll wheel don't work in that world and I don't want to have to look at the arrow keys to use them.

Damn kids, get off my lawn!

[timw4mail]

Agree about the useless jonas brothers!  Ever considered one of these?

I used to have one of those! Anybody know what kind of switch those are?

[itlnstln]

Discussions like this are why I'm going to be hanging on to my Model Ms until I'm in my grave. I'm a mainframe programmer and a touch typist (old school trained on a manual typewriter back in 7th grade). I navigate my 3270 session using arrow and PF keys and the 'Insert-Home-Delete-End' keys, the mouse and the scroll wheel don't work in that world and I don't want to have to look at the arrow keys to use them.
 
Damn kids, get off my lawn!

QFT.  I use 3270 terminal sessions at work, too, so the arrows and PF keys are critical.  I write SQL for a living (among many other things), so I need/use the CapsLock key for that.  I work in retail dealing with UPCs and other prooduct identifiers, so I am always using the numpad.

[ch_123]

I used to think that getting rid of the arrow cluster and replacing them with a numpad only was a good idea. Then I used my Model F for 6 months. It's not undoable, but it's kinda awkward and unnecessary.

[shrap]

I used to think that getting rid of the arrow cluster and replacing them with a numpad only was a good idea. Then I used my Model F for 6 months. It's not undoable, but it's kinda awkward and unnecessary.

The Model F is news to me. What's with the huge keys that only have a tiny actual pressing surface? Trying to avoid accidentally pressing the '0' key?

[Mikecase00]

... No!

I do tons of programming, I'd die without the editing block and arrow keys.  Using home/end, page up/down, and ctrl+arrow keys is way easier to navigate/edit code than using a mouse.  In fact, I wont even consider any keyboard which has a non-standard configuration of these keys.  They're just way too useful the way they are.

[ch_123]

The Model F is news to me. What's with the huge keys that only have a tiny actual pressing surface? Trying to avoid accidentally pressing the '0' key?

Not sure what you mean? The keys are the same size as the ones on the Model M. Unless you are reffering to the backspace, but you can adapt to that quite easily.

EDIT: Oh wait, I get it... You are looking at the wrong one. There are two major versions of the Model F, the Original PC version and the PC/AT version. I have the latter. The original PC one won't even work with a modern PC unless you build a special adaptor for it.

Other such keyboards include Apple's G3 keyboard which is meant to be pretty crappy, and one of i-Rocks keyboards with brown cherry switches. As I said though, after I started programming in college, I found the arrow cluster and the home/end keys to be far more useful than the numpad. Only reason I have the Model F is because it's pretty awesome to type on (much moreso than the later Model M with it's more conventional layout)

[itlnstln]

... No!
 
I do tons of programming, I'd die without the editing block and arrow keys. Using home/end, page up/down, and ctrl+arrow keys is way easier to navigate/edit code than using a mouse. In fact, I wont even consider any keyboard which has a non-standard configuration of these keys. They're just way too useful the way they are.

QFT. (again)

[shrap]

Not sure what you mean? The keys are the same size as the ones on the Model M. Unless you are reffering to the backspace, but you can adapt to that quite easily.

EDIT: Oh wait, I get it... You are looking at the wrong one. There are two major versions of the Model F, the Original PC version and the PC/AT version. I have the latter. The original PC one won't even work with a modern PC unless you build a special adaptor for it.

Yeah, the original PC one has got some ugly keys, some of which migrated to your Caps Lock and Alt keys. What do you do for F11 and F12? Both of those keys are used pretty commonly in modern programs (full screen and save as, respectively).

[shrap]

... No!

I do tons of programming, I'd die without the editing block and arrow keys.  Using home/end, page up/down, and ctrl+arrow keys is way easier to navigate/edit code than using a mouse.  In fact, I wont even consider any keyboard which has a non-standard configuration of these keys.  They're just way too useful the way they are.

Not saying they're not useful, just arranged differently on the number pad. Kill two birds with one stone instead of duplicating those keys in two locations. My brain has already mapped to the number pad "corners" configuration.

[ch_123]

I managed to survive for the most part. In theory, I could have mapped those keys to some shortcut or something, but I never really got around it. It was a sufficiently awesome keyboard to compensate for it's ****ty layout design.

[Repoman]

The only thing I miss on my HHKB is the cursor cluster. The fn key solution works, but isn't good.

In fact I was almost tempted to get the Pro JP model

[Mikecase00]

are you talking about a layout like this then?

http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/32706.jpg

[lowpoly]

... No!

I do tons of programming, I'd die without the editing block and arrow keys.  Using home/end, page up/down, and ctrl+arrow keys is way easier to navigate/edit code than using a mouse.  In fact, I wont even consider any keyboard which has a non-standard configuration of these keys.  They're just way too useful the way they are.

I think shrap suggested using the numpad in cursor mode and only switch to number mode on rare occasions.

I have used this setup when programming in the DOS days, it worked well. The mouse just started to appear back then.



I'm going to make a (kind of) case for this keyboard one day using an 8mm black acrylic plate.

[IBI]

I write SQL for a living (among many other things), so I need/use the CapsLock key for that.

I thought SQL wasn't case sensitive?

Personally I'd just move the number and arrow keys over to the left hand side like on my current 'left handed' keyboard, it's a far better place than the standard position and the numpad/arrow layout itself is pretty sensible (although the Page Up/Page Down block should be flipped in the new position).

[timw4mail]

I thought SQL wasn't case sensitive?

Personally I'd just move the number and arrow keys over to the left hand side like on my current 'left handed' keyboard, it's a far better place than the standard position and the numpad/arrow layout itself is pretty sensible (although the Page Up/Page Down block should be flipped in the new position).

It isn't. Its standard practice to capitalize the SQL keywords, though.

Even when writing SQL, I still can't stand Caps Lock.

[Repoman]

I have a friend at work who only uses caps lock.

I **** you not. Doesn't touch shift at all...

[Rajagra]

I ask, why are we getting rid of the numeric keypad and leaving the quaint arrow keys and home/end/pageup/pagedown cluster, when we can remove the latter and have a keyboard with the width of a tenkeyless (ok, it's one key wider) and still have a numeric keypad, thus getting the best of both worlds? Has any keyboard manufacturer tried this and had it fail miserably?

Good point. Sadly it was IBM who abandoned the layout you suggest. The 84 key AT keyboard design was really rather good.


I could live with that. The small backspace and postition of backslash are small issues.

A bigger problem for me is the position of the arrow keys when numlock is off. The inverted T layout has proven to be a wise one (even most gamers use the inverted T even if it's at WASD or wherever.)

I imagine it's possible to make a keyboard with a rearranged numlock-off layout like this:

[itlnstln]

It isn't. Its standard practice to capitalize the SQL keywords, though.
 
Even when writing SQL, I still can't stand Caps Lock.

True.  I also like to capitalize table names.  After keywords and table names, there's not much left to not capitalize.
 
In some RDBMSs, conditions involving text are case-sensitive.  Our Oracle and Teradata systems are set up this way, but not our SQL Server systems.

[ecru]

I agree that the numpad is essential.  Filco FKB100M/NB is as near to my perfect keyboard as I have been able to find.

[ch_123]

I think that Caps lock should be where scroll lock is, and scroll lock should be something like Alt-Caps

[cmr]

i saw not one, not two, but three of those compaqs for sale, all in working order, at the Weird Stuff Warehouse in the bay area sometime in the mid-90s.

[Manyak]

Wanna get rid of the arrow cluster but keep the numpad? Get an iRocks KR-6230!

No seriously though, the layout of that board is perfect if you exclude the giant enter/small backspace keys. Even as a programmer I was able to quickly get used to all the shortcuts using the numpad. And it still has the separate arrow keys anyway. So you get the best of both worlds.

[nanu]

... No!

I do tons of programming, I'd die without the editing block and arrow keys.  Using home/end, page up/down, and ctrl+arrow keys is way easier to navigate/edit code than using a mouse.  In fact, I wont even consider any keyboard which has a non-standard configuration of these keys.  They're just way too useful the way they are.

Agreed. These clusters are very convenient when they have consistent behavior throughout apps in the OS.  At least in Windows, the arrow keys and home/end, pgup/pgdn, combined with ctrl and shift, are great to have in any text field/area.

[watduzhkstand4]

I honestly don't use the numpad too much

[Rajagra]

When you have blank keycaps the numpad suddenly becomes more useful.

[Shawn Stanford]

Not saying they're not useful, just arranged differently on the number pad. Kill two birds with one stone instead of duplicating those keys in two locations. My brain has already mapped to the number pad "corners" configuration.

Then what you're looking for is a 122-key configuration without the numeric keypad. The arrow key configuration is just like that. There's a picture of mine in this thread: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6080

I could seriously go for that, since - other than occasionally slapping the Enter key with a thumb while I'm off the home row - I never use the numeric keypad.

[Shawn Stanford]

I have a friend at work who only uses caps lock. I **** you not. Doesn't touch shift at all...

Me neither. Unless I'm typing text for human consumption, I type everything in lower case. The mainframe doesn't care and coverts everything to caps.

[alpslover]

The third one had a 9" screen - the perfect netbook if it didn't weigh 28 lbs.

i had a compaq portable plus back in the day.  the keyboard uses capacitive switches.

[lowpoly]

^^^ Linear Cherry switches.

[ch_123]

Didn't know that.  My hands were probably numb from carrying the beast.

I think they were the boring type of capactive switch which felt like foam/foil boards as opposed to the cool ones like the Topre or Model F.

[alpslover]

I think they were the boring type of capactive switch which felt like foam/foil boards as opposed to the cool ones like the Topre or Model F.

yes, i believe the compaq portable's capacitive keyboard was made by keytronic.  not nearly in the same league as topre or the model f.

[watduzhkstand4]

does anyone find the nipples on the f and j keys not perky enough? It's hard for me to get a comfortable touch on it. Is there a way to make them bigger or more noticeable?

[wellington1869]

does anyone find the nipples on the f and j keys not perky enough? It's hard for me to get a comfortable touch on it. Is there a way to make them bigger or more noticeable?

type in the cold?

[o2dazone]

type in the cold?

lmao


try an ice cube over F and J

[timw4mail]

does anyone find the nipples on the f and j keys not perky enough? It's hard for me to get a comfortable touch on it. Is there a way to make them bigger or more noticeable?

I remember when Mac keyboards had those over "d" and "k"

[nanu]

does anyone find the nipples on the f and j keys not perky enough? It's hard for me to get a comfortable touch on it. Is there a way to make them bigger or more noticeable?

Compared to the numpad I never touch, mine have worn down over time.  I've read in another thread about putting some glue or something over them to make them bigger.

[watduzhkstand4]

Thanks for all the inputs =P

Compared to the numpad I never touch, mine have worn down over time.  I've read in another thread about putting some glue or something over them to make them bigger.

I was thinking of either drilling a small hole or put a dab of hot glue on it. Don't know yet. If my ideas sound whack please don't flame me thanks =]

[nanu]

I had considered drilling a hole, too, for inserting the decapitated head of a straight pin, and then epoxying the underside...

The issue is an aesthetic one; I would rather they be discreetly the same color as the key than zinc-plated.

[Rajagra]

The goal is to be able to get rid of them eventually anyway as you become "one with the keyboard".
...
 The IBM Selectric has NONE of the little nubs.  Millions of admins NEVER complained about their nubs.   NO dirty cracks puleez.....

How many people moved their Selectrics around their desk as they worked? They probably wore grooves in the desks with their forearms to act as guides! :lol:

[Shawn Stanford]

Typing on Selectrics was a trip. There was a definite *SNAP* when you passed the tipping point on the key...

[itlnstln]

Why not the Hooleon Nubile, Nubian, Nubblie, Nubbie nubs?
 
The goal is to be able to get rid of them eventually anyway as you become "one with the keyboard".
 

Show Image

 
The IBM Selectric has NONE of the little nubs. Millions of admins NEVER complained about their nubs. NO dirty cracks puleez.....

There's nothing Nubian about that white keyboard.  The best nipples on the F an J keys are the dots in the center of the keys.  I prefer them over the lines at the bottom.