75% What keys on the RIGHT side?

[Karura]

Hello,

Just thought I'd make a thread for this, since there are more and more 70-75% keyboards coming to us in recent times.

One thing about 75% keyboards is that we have 4 addition keys that we can assign on the right.


Here's another keyboard that also has 4 addition keys.


Due to the fact that 1, 2, 3, 4 all contain different profiles, we are unable to use normal keycaps on those keys since it would be the wrong profile.

I'm thinking ahead for future keycap GBs, so I was wondering:

What would you like to see in the spaces 1, 2, 3, 4?

Let's discuss functionality, practicality, and why we want specific keycaps for those spots.

I think a good one is 1) Del 2) Home 3) PgUp 4) PgDn

I find PgUp and PgDn to be very useful for switching between tabs in some programs such as Eclipse.

Discuss your preference!

[CPTBadAss]

This is my favorite 75% layout. The Epsilon is great

[Photekq]

Ideal for me would be the Octagon layout, but without using scroll lock or pause. So I would have 5 keys along that side : delete, pg up, pg dn, home, end in no particular order

[Karura]

Show Image

This is my favorite 75% layout. The Epsilon is great :D

Those are really interesting 1u mods

[Karura]

Ideal for me would be the Octagon layout, but without using scroll lock or pause. So I would have 5 keys along that side : delete, pg up, pg dn, home, end in no particular order

That would work out pretty nicely.

I don't actually know what the scroll lock or pause buttons are used for, but I've always bound Pause to pause in games.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

There's so many ways to do it.

Possibly, from the top: Page Up, Page Down, Delete, Home, End. This puts Delete into the correct position (makes switching to other keyboards easier) and makes Home and End easier to reach, as they're incredibly useful keys (and way, way too hard to use in ctrl/shift combination sequences on a 60%). It also makes Page Up and Down easier to alternate as they're only one key apart now.

I would also replace Scroll Lock with Pause, as I use the latter a lot and the former only when I've hit it by mistake and need to switch it back off.

Finally, I would ensure that Fn+Page Up, Page Down and Delete would send numpad *, - and + as these control tree node expansion in Windows. I can use left and right arrow instead of numpad + and - but nothing can replace numpad * and it is utterly impossible to put numpad * on a Poker II for blood nor money unless you reprogram the firmware. I want that key back!!!

I see that the Epsilon lacks a visible Fn key, which is concerning. 75% is going to need Fn as there will always be some key you need that isn't there. I am not sure where it would go. See, I use LWin, RWin and menu (except on a Poker II). I use most of the keys on a full-size keyboard for something, and if I saw a decent 75% that was like a Poker II (white or green backlit plate mount MX red with Cherry stabilisers) I'd be very tempted to get it. The Poker II is otherwise superb, but I do want my arrow keys back. Also, not being to just thwack F5 while negotiating multiple windows with the mouse is a real nuisance.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I don't actually know what the scroll lock or pause buttons are used for …

I think pause worked in the PC BIOS and would pause DOS startup text. Scroll lock works in Excel where it toggles whether the arrow keys scroll or switch cell. Generally people only discover this by accident when the arrow keys start behaving oddly.

[Karura]

There's so many ways to do it.

Possibly, from the top: Page Up, Page Down, Delete, Home, End. This puts Delete into the correct position (makes switching to other keyboards easier) and makes Home and End easier to reach, as they're incredibly useful keys (and way, way too hard to use in ctrl/shift combination sequences on a 60%). It also makes Page Up and Down easier to alternate as they're only one key apart now.

I would also replace Scroll Lock with Pause, as I use the latter a lot and the former only when I've hit it by mistake and need to switch it back off.

Finally, I would ensure that Fn+Page Up, Page Down and Delete would send numpad *, - and + as these control tree node expansion in Windows. I can use left and right arrow instead of numpad + and - but nothing can replace numpad * and it is utterly impossible to put numpad * on a Poker II for blood nor money unless you reprogram the firmware. I want that key back!!!

I see that the Epsilon lacks a visible Fn key, which is concerning. 75% is going to need Fn as there will always be some key you need that isn't there. I am not sure where it would go. See, I use LWin, RWin and menu (except on a Poker II). I use most of the keys on a full-size keyboard for something, and if I saw a decent 75% that was like a Poker II (white or green backlit plate mount MX red with Cherry stabilisers) I'd be very tempted to get it. The Poker II is otherwise superb, but I do want my arrow keys back. Also, not being to just thwack F5 while negotiating multiple windows with the mouse is a real nuisance.

Sound idea, I'm thinking that insert is also useless enough to take out.

I'm all for less keys, but for the sake of efficiency, I like the idea of having at least one of each key that actually has some use to it.

Putting Del beside \| actually seems  a better idea than beside Backspace, since the profile will be correct, and that is where Del keys have always been

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I use Insert but sufficiently infrequently that I'd put that on Fn+Delete, except I just used Fn+Delete for something else

D'oh.

Insert can go somewhere else, I don't really care too much.

[CPTBadAss]

I see that the Epsilon lacks a visible Fn key, which is concerning.

Just because the FN key isn't labeled as "FN", doesn't mean it's not there. I use the right windows as a function layer FN. You can program the Epsilon as you please. it's just designed to use caps from a G81-7000.

[Jotokun]

IMO, it's not a true 75% board if the side isn't Home/Page Up/Page Down/End, in that order. A lot of boards have standardized on this, including the Cherry G84, the TG3 Data911, the Nopoo Choc Mini, the Keykool 84, and the KBT Race. It's also used by quite a few laptops - in fact, every laptop I've owned up until I got my Thinkpad has had this layout. To switch them around, or out for anything else, just screws with muscle memory.

[spiceBar]

Hello,

Just thought I'd make a thread for this, since there are more and more 70-75% keyboards coming to us in recent times.

One thing about 75% keyboards is that we have 4 addition keys that we can assign on the right.

Show Image

Here's another keyboard that also has 4 addition keys.

Show Image

Due to the fact that 1, 2, 3, 4 all contain different profiles, we are unable to use normal keycaps on those keys since it would be the wrong profile.

I'm thinking ahead for future keycap GBs, so I was wondering:

What would you like to see in the spaces 1, 2, 3, 4?

Let's discuss functionality, practicality, and why we want specific keycaps for those spots.

I think a good one is 1) Del 2) Home 3) PgUp 4) PgDn

I find PgUp and PgDn to be very useful for switching between tabs in some programs such as Eclipse.

Discuss your preference!

I know I'm not answering your question directly, but isn't the problem the "profiles" to begin with?

Sculpted keys (profiles) cause us a lot of trouble when we want to move keys around.

Do they actually bring any benefit? I have used keyboards with flat profiles and I did not notice any difference in comfort with curved ones.

The fact that the top of the keys are cylindrical or spherical is definitely very important. I'm not arguing with this.

But the overall keyboard profile?

[Findecanor]

I know I'm not answering your question directly, but isn't the problem the "profiles" to begin with?

No, the problem is that keys have legends. If all keys were blank and people would just learn the keys from the start then there wouldn't be a problem.

[davkol]

I really like the column on newer Noppoo Choc Mini, i.e. Del-Home-PageUp-PageDown-End from top, because it makes sense, and Delete is in the corner, which makes it more difficult to hit it by accident. I'd love to see Insert instead of Pause/ScrollLock next to Delete though; only PrintScreen/SysRq is really useful out of these three special keys nowadays.

I know I'm not answering your question directly, but isn't the problem the "profiles" to begin with?

No, the problem is that keys have legends. If all keys were blank and people would just learn the keys from the start then there wouldn't be a problem.

QFT

gratz on 3k posts.

[spiceBar]

Hello,

Just thought I'd make a thread for this, since there are more and more 70-75% keyboards coming to us in recent times.

One thing about 75% keyboards is that we have 4 addition keys that we can assign on the right.

Show Image

Here's another keyboard that also has 4 addition keys.

Show Image

Due to the fact that 1, 2, 3, 4 all contain different profiles, we are unable to use normal keycaps on those keys since it would be the wrong profile.

I'm thinking ahead for future keycap GBs, so I was wondering:

What would you like to see in the spaces 1, 2, 3, 4?

Let's discuss functionality, practicality, and why we want specific keycaps for those spots.

I think a good one is 1) Del 2) Home 3) PgUp 4) PgDn

I find PgUp and PgDn to be very useful for switching between tabs in some programs such as Eclipse.

Discuss your preference!

OK, so now I answer your question (or opinion poll) directly.

I have actually been battling with the same problem yesterday. I was working on a Cherry G84-4100 and found myself constantly annoyed by that right side row.

Most of the time we see this, from top to bottom:
  Home PgUp PgDn End
That's what I had on the G84-4100.

I guess it is supposed to be "what makes sense", what people find logical, but it's actually not working for me for the following reasons:

- On a standard PC keyboard, PgUp is located 4 steps north of the right arrow, and PgDn is located 3 steps north. If we are talking about muscle memory, it looks like:
    PgUp PgDn Home End
would be less disruptive. At least PgUp and PgDn would still be located exactly at the same place relative to the arrow cluster. You just have to get used to the new location of Home and End.

- I find myself using the arrows, Home and End much more often than PgUp and PgDn. Putting Home at the top of the row, far from the rest, does not look like a good idea. Indeed, I have used a few keyboards with the Home PgUp PgDn End row, like the G84, and I have been put off by the location of Home.

- If you put PgUp and PgDn in positions 1 and 2, you can simply pick these keys from a standard set. It's not a huge advantage. I would not mention it if it was against usability, but it just happens that it does not contradict it.

I also like Del to be located above your location #1. I don't know why you ask only about the keys on 1, 2, 3 and 4, because the PrintScreen/ScrollLock/Pause cluster should be considered as well.

As it has been mentioned, these key see very little use nowadays, especially ScrLock and Pause. While there are definitely some uses under Linux for example, they could be moved to the Fn layer (you need a Fn layer on a 75% anyway).

I think that Del is much more important than ScrollLock and Pause, and maybe even Ins is more important. Ins is not used much anymore, but it is still useful for some (including me) in the command line (Ctrl-Ins, Shift-Ins).

In your first picture, I would suggest Ins where you have Pause, and Del above your location #1, at the top right of the keyboard.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

IMO, it's not a true 75% board if the side isn't Home/Page Up/Page Down/End, in that order. A lot of boards have standardized on this, including the Cherry G84, the TG3 Data911, the Nopoo Choc Mini, the Keykool 84, and the KBT Race. It's also used by quite a few laptops - in fact, every laptop I've owned up until I got my Thinkpad has had this layout. To switch them around, or out for anything else, just screws with muscle memory.

Right, and at work I use a ThinkPad without that right-hand column. My other laptop at work also lacks that right-hand column. Both are 14" classic aspect (4:3), which is all I will ever consider — widescreen needs to burn in hell. (My home laptop is an oversized 15" 4:3 with a right-hand column as you describe, but the keyboard on that is such a complete mess it's a headache to use anyway, even if the switches are fairly decent, and I only very rarely use it for anything.)

The trouble with muscle memory depends on what you remember. I know where Delete is, so why I can't I have Delete where it's supposed to be?

Moving from a Poker II to G84-4400 is hopelessly confusing, too.

There's no way to win sadly. Every keyboard size is going to have keys that aren't where you expect them to be.