Requesting Opinions on Apple Extended Keyboards Switch Types

[mr_a500]

I always assumed the Mitsumi came at the end, after white ALPS. So that means that right from the beginning of the AEK II, they were looking for ways to cut costs with a cheaper switch (makes sense - the AEK II was basically a cost cutting version of the original AEK). Maybe they realized it was not good enough (or customers complained) and switched back to the Salmon ALPS they were using on late original AEKs.

[terrpn]

no kidding..............actually got it right on the mexican white alps version

thanks daniel

[vivalarevolución]

I've tried the Matias Quiet, Salmon Alps, and Dampened Cream Alps switches. I haven't tried the orange Alps. And I haven't heard of a dampened white Alps.

I really liked the Matias quiet switches and Salmon Alps. The Matias switches are supposedly replacements of the Cream Alps. But I think that I like the Matias ones better than the Cream Alps in the AEK II I own. The Matias Quiets feel smoother and less scratchy versus the Cream Alps. Could be that my AEK II is still filthy though.

I'd like to try the orange Alps though and an AEK.

I think you may have tried Orange Alps and did not know it.  I brought an AEK to the April 2013 Chicago Meetup, and I brought an Orange Alps Apple IIGS board to Keycon.  I think tipo33 also had some Orange Alps among his half-dozen AEK's.

For Orange Alps, just imagine a slightly lighter Salmon Alps.  Orange Alps struck me as the lightest of Alps.

Crap. I think you're right. Do you still have those boards so I can try them out again?

No, I got rid of them.  Orange Alps have such light tactility that they almost feel linear at times.

[fohat.digs]

So, after over 500 views, it looks like there is little perceived difference between cream and white for the AEK2.

For the original AEK, the pink/salmons appear to be stiffer and the oranges a bit smoother, with the edge in preference being in favor of the pink/salmons.

Testing loose orange against loose black switches (what I have in my parts box), I can feel that there is actually very little tactility in the orange.

I would welcome additional observations and reviews. Thanks, all!

[ken in vista]

Hello all. I have two M0115 keyboards - one with orange switches that I've been using for 6 months and one with salmon switches I obtained a month ago. Both keyboards are satisfying to type on. The salmon switches feel slightly stiffer. I didn't realize Apple used different switches until I pulled a key cap on my 'new' keyboard. I'm going to start using the salmon keyboard as my everyday keyboard to see if I prefer it to the orange.

Picture of labels is below. The salmon keyboard is the one on the right with the higher serial number. The labels are otherwise identical and have the same part number 825-1439-A.


Also as an FYI, I use a Griffin iMate ADB to USB adapter and successfully use the keyboards with Windows XP, 7 and 8.1. On startup the keyboard isn't recognized the bios screen is done and the Windows login screen appears however.

[jacobolus]

No, I got rid of them.  Orange Alps have such light tactility that they almost feel linear at times.

What are you comparing to? Are you sure the keyboard wasn’t worn out? Orange alps are more tactile than Cherry MX brown/blue/clear, as one example. They’re less tactile than blue/white alps, SMK "monterey blue" switches, or orange omron switches, among common switches I've tried.

[fohat.digs]

I received an AEK yesterday that I purchased on ebay. The labels are below.

It has orange switches and seems a bit lighter than the pink/salmons.

The seller apologized for its condition, but with a little elbow grease it cleaned up nicely.

[mr_a500]

I received an AEK yesterday that I purchased on ebay. The labels are below.

It has orange switches and seems a bit lighter than the pink/salmons.

The seller apologized for its condition, but with a little elbow grease it cleaned up nicely.

Show Image

Your last picture confused me. I thought you cleaned it up nicely, then violently slammed it through your desk.

But I see it's a Compaq rubber dome and I certainly understand slamming one of those through a desk. (I've done something similar.)

[fohat.digs]

But I see it's a Compaq rubber dome and I certainly understand slamming one of those through a desk. (I've done something similar.)

I always thought that some of those late-1990s-early-2000s Compaqs were pretty decent for rubber domes.

The humor is just to keep people coming back to the thread even if they have nothing to add.

[CPTBadAss]

Fohat.digs, I just got an Apple M0116 with Orange Alps. I don't quite remember how Salmon Alps feel but I remember them feeling fairly bumpy. More like the bump in the Matias Quiets. The Orange Alps feel like a better version of MX Browns. A light bump. From what I do recall, I think I prefer Salmon Alps to these Orange Alps.

[False_Dmitry_II]

I've tried at least 3 different dampened creams and 2 dampened whites.

My first AEKII was dampened creams, and I immediately either sold it or something because it's gone, and I didn't like it. Then a dampened whites came through, and I didn't realize there was a difference at the time, but I actually liked it quite a bit. I was surprised by how much I liked it, and figured I had just discounted the AEKII too quickly. That one wasn't mine, so I bought another one and it was creams again, and again I didn't like it. I had kept a few of the original dampened whites from the first time, and looked at them and that's when I realized the color difference. After that I eventually got another one with dampened whites, and it wasn't in as good condition as the first one I had like that but it was still also better than any of the creams I've tried. I don't know what the difference is between them internally if any, since it hasn't been documented. I then desoldered the entire dampened whites and put them into my Vivanco (pics of one somewhere here) to make it quieter because it's a small one. Which I just happened to be using. But yeah, definitely dampened whites is better, I'd like to compare them specifically to dampened matias to see which is better eventually.

But I don't get the confusion between Orange and Salmon. It's internally, at least, the same as the difference between Blue and regular White. Both blue and orange have the longer switchplate, and salmon and white do not. This much has been known at least since the lego one was here last. There may be other differences in, say the tactile leaf, but I haven't seen that documented or at least looked at them to see. Given that the era of clicky white is the era of tactile black, what I'm not sure of is what the difference is between black and salmon - they should both still have the shorter plate. Preference is another thing entirely, and is certainly a function of the use and wear of individual examples, but there is no reason to use speculation when the component pieces can be directly compared.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

OK: take a look at the chart at the bottom of this page and explain the long overlaps between supposedly identical products:

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/alpsk.htm

Green and yellow overlapped for two years and were sometimes found in the same keyboard together.
Orange, salmon and pine black ("Matsukuro") overlapped for four years.

Either the switches did differ in some way, or MouseFan has bad data. There are other differences such as whether the tactile leaf has a hole through it.

[QuadGMoto]

I just came across this thread, so I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I have an original AEK M0115. It has the salmon switches in it.

Here is the label:



The "nickel test" shows an activation force for these switches of 14 nickels. By comparison, the Cherry blues and browns are 11, the "ergo clear" is 12, the stock clear is 14, the green is 15, and the white is 16 nickels. That means that the stock clears are nearly identical in force to my favorite keyboard of all time. The clears seem to have slightly more of a tactile bump than the alps do, maybe enough that I could tell the difference in a blind test, but it would be a close thing.

Based on the other labels posted so far, it looks like AEK's with a serial higher than 800,000 probably have the salmon switches.

[jacobolus]

The "nickel test" shows an activation force for these switches of 14 nickels. [...] the stock clear is 14 [...] The clears seem to have slightly more of a tactile bump than the alps do, maybe enough that I could tell the difference in a blind test, but it would be a close thing.

If you try them back to back, you’ll notice that MX clear switches feel *substantially* different from tactile Alps switches. The tactility of Alps switches is sharper (i.e. there's more dramatic drop in force post-actuation) because the force depends on a metal leaf spring in addition to the helical compression spring. With the MX clear switch, you can feel a little plastic bump in an otherwise linear feeling force curve. With the Alps switch, there’s an initial increase in force followed by a noticeable click (on the tactile switches, it’s not audible, so maybe “click” is the wrong word) where the force drops off steeply, and then slowly increases as the switch keeps going down [IMO the Alps switches would ideally have more increase in force near the bottom of travel, but that’s neither here nor there.] Also, the actuation point in Alps switches is noticeably higher up than on MX switches, and there’s much less feeling of plastic-on-plastic friction from the slider (though on old switches that have gotten some dust inside Alps switches can get pretty scratchy too).

[jacobolus]

Green and yellow overlapped for two years and were sometimes found in the same keyboard together.

I think maybe this was because the switches with LEDs have cut-outs in the bottom of the switch housing for the LED leads, which the linear switches without LEDs don’t have? So if Alps was switching to the yellow switches, it’s possible that they had extras of the green switches w/ LEDs in them or didn’t start producing yellow switches w/ LEDs included right away?

I dunno, that’s a completely speculative guess.

[QuadGMoto]

If you try them back to back, you’ll notice that MX clear switches feel *substantially* different from tactile Alps switches.

I did test them back to back, or more precisely, top to bottom. I put my AEK on my desk and sat the tester plate with the clears right on top of it. When moving the keys at typing speed, I can't really tell the difference.

If I move slowly, the ALPS feels like there's very little slack before the pressure starts building to the activation point. On the clear there's some slack before it starts ramping up. So the bump winds up feeling sharper on the clear than on the ALPS. The ALPS feels a bit more linear. On the way back up is where the biggest difference is. The ALPS is simply smooth on the release. On the clear, the bump is definitely there. It also seems like the stroke of the ALPS is slightly shorter than the Cherry.

Maybe I should have said I might be able to tell the difference during a blind typing test at speed. If I slow down and examine the full stroke in detail, the differences are obvious. But who types like that?

[jacobolus]

I did test them back to back, or more precisely, top to bottom. I put my AEK on my desk and sat the tester plate with the clears right on top of it. When moving the keys at typing speed, I can't really tell the difference.

Huh. They feel fairly different to me. But I don’t have any of the pink/salmon Alps switches, only orange, cream/ivory, white, blue, brown.

It’s also possible to change the feel of Alps switches quite a bit via very slight bending of the tactile/click leaf one way or another, and I suspect most of them change a bit through time/use.

the ALPS feels like there's very little slack before the pressure starts building to the activation point. On the clear there's some slack before it starts ramping up.

Yes, that’s right, on the Alps switch, the actuation point is nearer to the top.

So the bump winds up feeling sharper on the clear than on the ALPS. The ALPS feels a bit more linear.

Hm. The cherry switch, to me, feels like it's basically linear with a bump in the middle (like driving a car over a speed bump). With the Alps switch, it starts taking a high amount of force, then the amount of force drops noticeably at actuation (like driving a car off a curb). For me, this combination (especially the higher actuation point) helps a lot to reduce the total amount of work that my fingers need to put into the keystroke, because there’s more effort up front to get the cherry switch to actuate, and then the spring is pretty stiff right after actuation.

If I slow down and examine the full stroke in detail, the differences are obvious. But who types like that?

Aha, okay. Fair enough. I suspect this has a lot to do with typing style too. The lighter the typing (i.e. using just enough force/work to actuate the switch), the more noticeable the difference is going to be. Also, I bet it’s more obvious on a full keyboard than a switch tester.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Green and yellow overlapped for two years and were sometimes found in the same keyboard together.

I think maybe this was because the switches with LEDs have cut-outs in the bottom of the switch housing for the LED leads, which the linear switches without LEDs don’t have? So if Alps was switching to the yellow switches, it’s possible that they had extras of the green switches w/ LEDs in them or didn’t start producing yellow switches w/ LEDs included right away?

I dunno, that’s a completely speculative guess.

I would be surprised if that would last for two years!

[jacobolus]

There was clearly some overlap. What I mean is that when they first introduced the yellow switches, they may have sold green switches with LEDs before they started selling yellow switches with LEDs. Or perhaps some OEMs had a surplus of green switches with LEDs even after they started using yellow switches for the rest.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What's confusing is that SPARC's graphs for them show identical slopes, but suggest a 1 mm difference in pretravel:

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/keyboard/html/alpssw.html

You think they're different, Sandy thinks they're different, I think they're different, and we're all sure that yellow is noticeably stiffer than green, but that's not what SPARC measures — his graphs indicate that the force slope is identical. For me the difference between green and yellow is very noticeable, and even visibly detectable if I press them together:



Also, usage patterns would suggest otherwise, for example, the keyboard found with the number pad using yellow instead of greens. Why would you waste effort segregating identical switches?

The parts of mine are not fully interchangeable as the yellow ones are short switchplate. The spring dimensions appear to be the same, though:



My specification for SKCLAR is in Japanese, and I can't read it, but it appears not to cite pretravel. The official graph matches SPARC's in terms of having a dip close to 3 mm (presumably due to the actuation leaf), and cites a force of 0.588 N (60 gf), while SPARC measures his as having a peak force of 55 gf — his are lighter than the specification and lighter than mine.

Interestingly he also believes that white Alps switches were manufactured in several countries, which is the conclusion that I reached.

It's complicated : )

[jacobolus]

Okay, I got a keyboard with yellow Alps (including one heavier cream switch for the spacebar and a couple of switches with LEDs) and a keyboard with green Alps (including one super-duper-heavy cream switch for a 'break' key).

I’m going to desolder all of these today/tomorrow, and then hopefully measure at least 10 of each type of switch on HaaTa's new machine on Sunday. We’ll see if I can make it down there and if his device is working by then.

Ideally we can measure force curve + actuation point, and hopefully also measure the force curves for just the springs, alone.

The switches are quite noticeably different, but it will be interesting to get some data on that.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

ah, that means I get to write a page on the Alps SKCL Heavy Cream once the pics/measurements are in. We already know of a heavy grey switch:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCL_Heavy_Grey

You must have the cream equivalent to it.

[terrpn]

looking forward to hearing ur results

thanks

[jacobolus]

Let’s necro this thread.

I like the keycaps of the Alps-switch AEK IIs a bit better than the keycaps of the AEK I. The arbitrarily adjustable tilt is kind of cute, but overall I like the case of the AEK I better. E.g. it’s a bit less flexible if you grab opposite ends and twist.

The condition of the switches makes as much difference in feel as the type of switches. Pristine “pine black” switches feel better than gritty orange switches. But with that said, my personal preference is:
orange > salmon > “pine” black > “bamboo” black = SKBM

I don’t like the dampened switches quite as much:
Matias quiet > cream > tactile white > mitsumi

I’m not sure where ivory, brown, and tactile green switches fit in there. They’re a bit more different in feeling. I like all three, but don’t think I’d type on any of them full time.

My personal clicky switch ranking goes something like:
blue = amber > Matias = “pine” white > “bamboo” white = SKBM

Part of my problem with the dampened switches is that without the sharp bottom-out or “clack” sound, there’s not too much tactile/audio feedback from the switch compared to undampened tactile or clicky switches; they end up giving a bit of a rubber dome vibe. Matias quiet switches have a more tactile leaf in them, and so I like their overall feel better than the dampened complicated Alps switches. The weak tactile response surely has some to do with the 20+ year-old tactile leaves in the Alps switches softening up a bit, but I think the Matias leaf might also be a bit more sharply tactile by design.

I find some very careful bending of the tactile leaves of old Alps switches can make a nice positive difference to switch feel, but it’s a pain in the ass and unfortunately I don’t know of any way to make the feel consistent across switches. Basically requires slightly tweaking the leaf, re-assembling the switch, testing it out, noting inconsistencies and then disassembling and slightly tweaking the leaf again, until it comes out right. Even more time consuming and fiddly than lubing switches; not a remotely scalable process.

The other problem with the dampened switches is that they have a stiffer spring than my preference. (Or at any rate, the cream switches have a stiffer spring than orange switches.) I think orange Alps switches are just about the perfect switch weight.

I’m really hoping we can get a group buy going for some aftermarket Alps-compatible springs in a few different stiffnesses and a few different lengths. I think a spring diameter can be found that is compatible with complicated and simplified Alps switches (and tee mount Alps switches and Matias switches), SMK switches, Alps-mount Omron switches, various four-tab Alps clones, I think those Alps-mount Mitsumi switches, and perhaps others.

After trying various spring-swapped Cherry MX switches, it can clearly make a big difference to switch feel. It would be great to do the same with Alps switches. A lighter spring (either less stiff, or the same stiffness but a bit shorter) would make cream/white Alps switches and clicky/tactile Matias switches much closer to my preference.

Also, sorry everyone that I haven’t actually done the proper measuring on HaaTa’s force gauge... in the last few months there were a couple of long trips, I got married, and I’ve been working on other stuff. I really should try to take a bunch of Alps switches on a pilgrimage down to San Jose though, as the concrete data would be very helpful.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

How finished is that gauge? Obviously don't make the pilgrimage until it's ready!

[jacobolus]

How finished is that gauge? Obviously don't make the pilgrimage until it's ready!

Well it’s mostly fine for measuring the downstroke (though I think there might be just a little bit of slip in it, manifesting as a ramp up at the very start of a generated force curve). But for comparative purposes it’s great for the downstrokes.

It’s measuring the upstrokes that is a bit of a problem. There’s slip and it’s hard to get a good measurement; not too surprising as the whole setup is kind of hacked together.

There’s some hope to get a cheap-ish CNC mill and replace the mill part with HaaTa’s force gauge. Programming that should allow automatically pressing a switch multiple times at different speeds, or maybe even testing every key on a keyboard to measure consistency, etc.

I want to measure a bunch of Alps switches as soon as I can, but obviously getting better hardware set up would be ideal. It would be much better especially for comparing different types of switches if we could get accurate upstroke measurements.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Depends how many pilgrimages you want go on I suppose.