Why Alps keycap group buys will continue to fail; and what can be done about it.

[Chromako]

I see three answers for problem 4.

Option A:  Go Tai-Hao, which I think does offer ALPS-compatible stabilizers.  The space-bars they included in the group buy definitely had ALPS-style stabilizer mounts.
Option B:  Someone develops a glue-in replacement stabilizer clip you can stick next to the unusable MX-style stabilizer opening.
Option C:  Pony up for SP to do moulds that accomodate ALPS-style stabilizers.

Option B is potentially a printable problem, but getting them mounted properly by the end users is asking for trouble.
Option C is pricey as all get out.

That's why, along with the overall look of the product, I'm hoping someone finds a way to pull together enough market to make a Tai-Hao order feasible.

I like that we're thinking of solutions here.  Yes, sadly, I think that Tai-Hao does seem like the most realistic solution, but why must their MOQ be so crazy high? (Not quite sure why SP has wonky hybrid moulding- must be stuff left over from some weirdo Frankensteinish thing that Comptec inexplicably built, would be my guess.) Alps really deserves to be more popular.

[Chromako]

Also, these sets that are advertised as PBT double shot, whether from Vortex or Tai Hao, are they really PBT? SP had terrible issues with the different shrinkage rate of PBT, to the extent that they will not make a full set of double shot keycaps in PBT. I suspect that the double shot PBT sets from other manufacturers are actually a blend of plastics. Do I have any proof of this? No, it's just a hunch. But who knows how they wear? Do we have any evidence, even anecdotal, that they are as shine resistant as traditional dyesub PBT?

Many (perhaps all) of the doubleshot PBT keys from Vortex actually have the legends made out of POM. Of course, doing that mixed design means that the key and the legends will wear at different rates, negating one of the advantages of traditional mono-plastic DS keycap construction over pad-printing or laser engraving/etching/burning.

This means that eventually if heavily used, the Vortex keycaps will develop protruding legends as I -think- that POM has higher wear resistance than PBT. (If it's the other way around, just imagine the opposite) That would, however, take quite awhile due to PBT's wear resistance.

[jacobolus]

Yes, sadly, I think that Tai-Hao does seem like the most realistic solution, but why must their MOQ be so crazy high?

Their typical customer is a big company trying to make 10000 (or 10x that) identical keyboards and put them on the shelf in every Best Buy, not a ragtag bunch of hobbyists who want to customize their keyboards’ colors.

[Chromako]

Yes, sadly, I think that Tai-Hao does seem like the most realistic solution, but why must their MOQ be so crazy high?

Their typical customer is a big company trying to make 10000 (or 10x that) identical keyboards and put them on the shelf in every Best Buy, not a ragtag bunch of hobbyists who want to customize their keyboards’ colors.

Ah, yes. Not wanting to deal with small customers. 'Tis too bad, really. sigh.

[Melvang]

I heard that SP was using ABS tooling for PBT.

Just out of curiosity, what are the differences in tooling requirements between ABS and PBT? Is there a good resource about that online somewhere?

PBT plastic has a MUCH higher coefficient of expansion from heat than ABS.  This is where the issues come from.  Especially when trying to double shoot key caps.  If they attempt to make the cap first and then do the legend shot, when it cools it could actually create a gap between the legend and the caps.   If they shoot the legend first and then pour the cap around it, it could create excessive stress on the cap causing it to crack, or due to higher melting point, it could melt the legend if the cap doesn't cool quick enough.

Then there is the issue with the excessive thermal expansion causing longer keys to warp during the cooling process.  Yes this can be taken care of with the mold, but molds of this amount of accuracy cost well in excess of multiple thousands of dollars each. 

From what I have heard with the Tai Hao double shot PBT caps (again possible rumors and my memory in use here) is that they use PBT for the base cap and POM for the legend.

[jacobolus]

I wonder if someone could do POM/POM doubleshots instead? That would be great. POM/acetal/Delrin is a great plastic. :-)

(Actually, what I personally want is just thick sculpted spherical POM blanks.)

[dante]

I wonder if someone could do POM/POM doubleshots instead? That would be great. POM/acetal/Delrin is a great plastic. :-)

(Actually, what I personally want is just thick sculpted spherical POM blanks.)

A few years ago a lot of Chinese boards had POM; now it's an extinct species.  I believe PLUM is one of the last holdouts.

Dyesub PBT / Doubleshot ABS is what companies seem to be moving towards now that they've more or less figured out to mass produce it.

[njbair]

So we just saw another big drop for the Infinity keyboard--nearly 300 sold. I bought two, one with MX Browns in the standard layout, and one with Matias Quiet Pros in the hacker layout. The latter will be my first board with ALPS switches, so call me naively optimistic, but I have a theory as to how an ALPS buy can succeed:

At this point following the most recent Infinity Massdrop buy, it seems to me there must be enough Infinity ALPS boards out there (or on their way) to sustain a successful keycap group buy, IF the set has mass appeal throughout the ALPS community. So how does one achieve mass appeal? Here are my thoughts:

• Focus on the Infinity board, rather than trying to accommodate all the crazy ALPS variations.
• Accommodate both the Hacker and Standard layouts (e.g., include keys for both layouts' bottom rows).
• Throw in some extra keys (blanks and alternates) to allow for some individual creativity.
• Use SP ABS in DSA profile to keep costs down.
• Create a new, unique colorway that's not available elsewhere.
• Promote the crap out of it.

Does that make sense or does this sound like a pipe dream?

[Badwrench]

So we just saw another big drop for the Infinity keyboard--nearly 300 sold. I bought two, one with MX Browns in the standard layout, and one with Matias Quiet Pros in the hacker layout. The latter will be my first board with ALPS switches, so call me naively optimistic, but I have a theory as to how an ALPS buy can succeed:

At this point following the most recent Infinity Massdrop buy, it seems to me there must be enough Infinity ALPS boards out there (or on their way) to sustain a successful keycap group buy, IF the set has mass appeal throughout the ALPS community. So how does one achieve mass appeal? Here are my thoughts:

• Focus on the Infinity board, rather than trying to accommodate all the crazy ALPS variations.
• Accommodate both the Hacker and Standard layouts (e.g., include keys for both layouts' bottom rows).
• Throw in some extra keys (blanks and alternates) to allow for some individual creativity.
• Use SP ABS in DSA profile to keep costs down.
• Create a new, unique colorway that's not available elsewhere.
• Promote the crap out of it.

Does that make sense or does this sound like a pipe dream?

Makes perfect sense:  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68887.0