Recently obtained IBM 1386303 (first ever model M)-Help using on computer?

[wyatt8740]

I recently (around a month ago) stumbled upon an IBM 3161 terminal:

It was made on October 4, 1985. I found it at a HAMfest in my city, labeled at "$20 (Make offer!)". I offered $18, and he said it was "More than fair". I wish I'd just offered $8!
Anyway, this keyboard is the first Model M ever made. (not the first off the assembly line, but the first part number and the first year, and the first with the modern layout almost all PC's use today). Unfortunately, however, it's a terminal keyboard.

I was initially planning to convert it with a teensy or similar and one of the software converters out there, but I don't have the correct 270 degree DIN-5 connector. I took it apart (a few broken off rivets sadly), and I pulled the controller from my 1993 59G7980 (My only other Model M, which I picked up free while volunteering at a 'rummage sale' thing), placing it in the 1386303 and connecting the ribbon (the LED pins have no connections in this setup).
It worked, to my surprise. But I don't want to destroy a perfectly good Model M for the sake of another. And I definitely don't want to just order a 270 degree DIN-5 from digikey like a sensible person!

So I'm going to ask if anyone even knows what the protocol of this keyboard is. Did terminals use the XT interface? Is this 3161 actually using AT over a nonstandard connector? Is it something totally different?

The cable is attached permanently from the outside, but inside there is a weird little connector that appears to be like whatever the floppy drive/IDE HDD connector is, but with only 6 pins. I might just connect to this, but I still would like to know what protocol it uses. I never see ANY explanation as to what protocol the terminal keyboards actually use, and all the guides out there don't mention the 316x terminals, only 317x and higher.

What have I got here?


The keyboard feels nice, by the way. Different from my 1993 one, but nice.

[daerid]

I have absolutely nothing to contribute answer-wise, but wow.... nice score.

[wyatt8740]

thanks!
I was thrilled to see the board, and only after getting home did I notice the manufacture date.

[Snowdog993]

I don't get it.  You destroyed the din cable and pulled the controller from it, yanked the controller off your other Model M, and used the SDL connector from that to the PC and it worked?
I would guess the keyboard has a standard AT-101 membrane assembly, and all you need is a new standard IBM 1391401 controller to hook up to it.  You answered your own question when you did what you did.
I would guess the terminal controller won't work, plenty wrong especially when you literally destroyed the cable too.  Just find another IBM keyboard like a 1390120 and use the controller from that.  (Or find someone that has just that available for sale)

Don't mess it up more and destroy it! Give it to me!

[arakula]

Presumably AT protocol, scan set 3.

[fohat.digs]

The simple non-destructive solution is to build an outboard Soarer's/Teensy box with the appropriate socket, or, Soarer's suggestion, use an AT socket and build or buy adapters for other cables.

[Khers]

.

[Jixr]

I have an M i've been thinking of parting out.
lemme know if you'd want the controller for it.

[wyatt8740]

I don't get it.  You destroyed the din cable and pulled the controller from it, yanked the controller off your other Model M, and used the SDL connector from that to the PC and it worked?
I would guess the keyboard has a standard AT-101 membrane assembly, and all you need is a new standard IBM 1391401 controller to hook up to it.  You answered your own question when you did what you did.
I would guess the terminal controller won't work, plenty wrong especially when you literally destroyed the cable too.  Just find another IBM keyboard like a 1390120 and use the controller from that.  (Or find someone that has just that available for sale)

Don't mess it up more and destroy it! Give it to me!

I didnt rip it off. there's a nice detachable connector inside the case.
It is still easily reversible.
And I don't happen to have extra keyboard controller boards lying around.

Presumably AT protocol, scan set 3.

And is that something that could be passively converted to PS/2?

The simple non-destructive solution is to build an outboard Soarer's/Teensy box with the appropriate socket, or, Soarer's suggestion, use an AT socket and build or buy adapters for other cables.

I don't want to use soarer's in particular because it's not open source and I don't have a teensy. I know there are open source alternatives and all, but as of right now I don't have the correct DIN connector, or an incorrect one that fits its pins, that is not in use on one of my commodore computers.

Wow! That's a nice score! $18 for what appears a nice model M, not bad. Wish I would stumble upon something like that...

Hehe, I've found two in the 3 years I've been hunting. They are out there!

I have an M i've been thinking of parting out.
lemme know if you'd want the controller for it.

I think I might, but I've not got very much money at the moment (xmas gifts to family & all).

[Snowdog993]

I didnt rip it off. there's a nice detachable connector inside the case.
It is still easily reversible.
And I don't happen to have extra keyboard controller boards lying around.

 I took it apart (a few broken off rivets sadly), and I pulled the controller from my 1993 59G7980 (My only other Model M, which I picked up free while volunteering at a 'rummage sale' thing), placing it in the 1386303 and connecting the ribbon (the LED pins have no connections in this setup).
It worked, to my surprise. But I don't want to destroy a perfectly good Model M for the sake of another. And I definitely don't want to just order a 270 degree DIN-5 from digikey like a sensible person!

You took it apart.  I understand perfectly what you said.  I know the controllers are easily replaced.  You DID ruin the cable that connected to the terminal.  You should talk to Jixr about getting his controller and possibly the SDL cable too.  Or just send it to me before you destroy it by experimenting some more.

Edit: New post.

[wyatt8740]

I didnt rip it off. there's a nice detachable connector inside the case.
It is still easily reversible.
And I don't happen to have extra keyboard controller boards lying around.

 I took it apart (a few broken off rivets sadly), and I pulled the controller from my 1993 59G7980 (My only other Model M, which I picked up free while volunteering at a 'rummage sale' thing), placing it in the 1386303 and connecting the ribbon (the LED pins have no connections in this setup).
It worked, to my surprise. But I don't want to destroy a perfectly good Model M for the sake of another. And I definitely don't want to just order a 270 degree DIN-5 from digikey like a sensible person!

You took it apart.  I understand perfectly what you said.  I know the controllers are easily replaced.  You DID ruin the cable that connected to the terminal.  You should talk to Jixr about getting his controller and possibly the SDL cable too.  Or just send it to me before you destroy it by experimenting some more.

How did I ruin the cable?
I'll get a pic.

[Snowdog993]

I edited my message.  I guessed you were talking about the rivets holding the assembly to the steel backplane.  I understand now.  Even so you should take my suggestion and get the controller and cable from Jixr.

What I thought you meant was that you actually broke the pins on the DIN 270.  Just a misunderstanding.

[wyatt8740]

nah, those rivets were already sitting on the bottom of the case when I opened it up. And there were only four missing, so it works fine for now.

Anyone got any idea what that piece of metal in the far connector socket is for?

[Snowdog993]

JUST FORGET the controller and put a new controller in it!  The CONVERTER for the controller will cost you $40 and you don't even have that!  I give up!

[Snowdog993]

+2 Fohat.Digs

And if you were to make your own converter, Fohat.Digs actually showed you a perfect example of what is needed to be done.  You need BOTH of those things.

Edit: The "black box" is the Soarer/Teensy adapter.  It is NOT just a pass-through adapter or a USB active adapter.  It is a translation adapter.  I hope you understand.  It's not just wiring!

[fohat.digs]

I have a few extras of the 240 degree DIN socket like I showed (the black socket on the end of the beige cable) and I will sell them for $4 including shipping domestic US.

Send me a private message if you want one. This is a new unassembled piece, you have to do all the actual work yourself.

[RoflCopter4]

Go to http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/pages.main/pageID/3 and register that thing!

[wyatt8740]

Go to http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/pages.main/pageID/3 and register that thing!

can't. no form I can enter it in :\

Same was true with my 59G7980, but I had to email them to get it registered. what a pain.

[Snowdog993]

I'm not worried, I am sure he will figure out a way to get it to work....

[wyatt8740]

lol I have that PS/2 -> USB adapter
Is that the one from staples?

[Snowdog993]

I think the total price for the adapter (as it sits) probably cost much more than the keyboard!  Anyway, I sure hope you have a nice Christmas this year, and hopefully you'll let us know how you got it all going. 

[wyatt8740]

yeah, you too. I'll say if I ever get around to this. Was hoping not to have to spend money to do it because the board itself was costing so little. 

[arakula]

Presumably AT protocol, scan set 3.

And is that something that could be passively converted to PS/2?

In theory, yes; the hardware protocol is the same, so you could connect it to a PS/2-capable computer using a passive DIN->PS/2 adapter (or rip off the DIN connector and use a PS/2 connector instead, but since you also got the complete terminal, I'd consider that to be an act of unnecessary destruction).

I haven't played with the software side myself, so the rest is purely theoretical from my POV.

If you're using Linux, you might get away with some configuration wizardry.
Getting Windows to understand set 3 is, as far as I can know, not easy, since you'd have to change (and potentially create) the keyboard driver. If someone has details on that, please let me know.
Finding a cheap PS/2->USB adapter that speaks it so you can connect the terminal keyboard to an Apple is presumably impossible. They only know set 2.

The easiest way to get it to work would be orihalcon's adapter. Not really cheap, though.

[wyatt8740]

In theory, yes; the hardware protocol is the same, so you could connect it to a PS/2-capable computer using a passive DIN->PS/2 adapter (or rip off the DIN connector and use a PS/2 connector instead, but since you also got the complete terminal, I'd consider that to be an act of unnecessary destruction).

Don't worry, I have plans for this terminal! (despite the burned-in screen, I'd like to find a replacement if I can). Not destroying this keyboard!

I haven't played with the software side myself, so the rest is purely theoretical from my POV.

If you're using Linux, you might get away with some configuration wizardry.

I use linux; that's good to hear.

Getting Windows to understand set 3 is, as far as I can know, not easy, since you'd have to change (and potentially create) the keyboard driver. If someone has details on that, please let me know.
Finding a cheap PS/2->USB adapter that speaks it so you can connect the terminal keyboard to an Apple is presumably impossible. They only know set 2.

Not too surprising. When i think Microsoft, I think 'ignoring the 1%.' Still, no big deal here!

The easiest way to get it to work would be orihalcon's adapter. Not really cheap, though.

I can make my own if I can get my grubby paws on a 6 pin DIN plug really cheap (or source one in my collection of random electronics). I have the microcontroller and I know of at least one open source converter. But I'd prefer to avoid it.


Thanks for the help!

I just read here:
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm

Linux implementations typically choose to use Scan Code Set 3, if it is available, by default, and therefore a 122-key keyboard, under Linux, will behave more like a 101-key keyboard instead of like an 84-key keyboard.

Sounds like if i can just get/make a passive adapter, I'll be in business!
Too bad I used my last male 6-pin mini DIN on my Famicom (japanese NES) composite video mod.
http://i.imgur.com/ptxbzu4.jpg
At least I've got a crap rubberdome keyboard I can pull apart.

[arakula]

Oh yes, one more thing ... based on the picture you posted, this keyboard uses the same cable layout as my M-122 terminal keyboards (they got a RJ-45 connector, but otherwise look pretty much the same), so the connector on the controller board should have the following signal layout:

Code: [Select]

       o         o ----- Vcc +5V (black) 
       o    o    o
       |    |    |
       |    |    +------ Data (red)
       |    +----------- GND (white)
       +---------------- Clock (yellow)
(looking onto the connector from the cable side).
Since I don't have the model you're dissecting here, you would have to verify that, of course.

[fohat.digs]

This has been posted many times, but never trust color!

[Snowdog993]

Go to http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/pages.main/pageID/3 and register that thing!

Speaking of registering with Clickykeyboards.com I went and Emailed them about my Lexmark a few minutes ago.
Hopefully they will add it to their database.

Edit:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/13198/subcatid/0/id/239398

[Snowdog993]

I just read here:
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm

Linux implementations typically choose to use Scan Code Set 3, if it is available, by default, and therefore a 122-key keyboard, under Linux, will behave more like a 101-key keyboard instead of like an 84-key keyboard.

Sounds like if i can just get/make a passive adapter, I'll be in business!
Too bad I used my last male 6-pin mini DIN on my Famicom (japanese NES) composite video mod.
http://i.imgur.com/ptxbzu4.jpg
At least I've got a crap rubberdome keyboard I can pull apart.

Good luck with that!  (cringing)
Edit:
I sure wish Soarer would join this thread and explain to him exactly what needs to be done for this to work with a PC.
I can't help but panic when I know it isn't going to work.  (Where is that RED escape key when you need it?)
Oh wait! I can refer him to the page where it all makes sense.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0
Now I feel a lot better.  *WHEW!*

[arakula]

Unfortunately, Soarer hasn't joined any thread since quite a long time. Apart from that, he could only say that the terminal keyboards use the same hardware protocol as the PS/2 Model Ms.

It would be good for your health if you didn't panic any time someone else embarks on a little experiment that costs next to nothing and can lead to no harm to anybody.
If you know it won't work, it would be nice if you shared that knowledge. I, for one, would be very interested in reasons why it shouldn't work, because based on my understanding, it should - but I'm always willing to learn ... but not to believe blindly.

[Snowdog993]

Easy enough to answer without sounding like a troll.  That thread will explain the issues that are encountered when you connect a terminal keyboard to a PC.  It's not that it can't be done, it's just that you have to have the right part to begin with.  Like I was saying before, it is not the keyboard, but it is the controller that is the issue.  What is needed, is a way for the keyboard with it's existing controller to be translated to a PC so it will understand it.  There are several hardware "translators" that may work fine.  If you read that thread, you will see what I am going on about.
  If it were as simple as just using an adapter and connecting it straight to the PC, there wouldn't be so many terminal boards available.  But now, since the translation has been made by the "Soarer's Adapter" it may be that dream is finally realized.
  I am not over-reacting.  I am just saying that maybe you can look and see what other people have actually done.  That is why I was telling Wyatt to just give ME the keyboard and let me take over from there.  It's going to cost more than the $18 he invested to do this.  I'm willing to pay for the translator that I know will work.
  I've made my share of mistakes in the past, and have ruined keyboards before.  I just don't want to see it happen to that one.

Edit: I suppose I care for some silly reason.  After all, it is his keyboard.  I wish him good luck and I really DO want to know if he gets it working another way.

[Snowdog993]

Apart from that, he could only say that the terminal keyboards use the same hardware protocol as the PS/2 Model Ms.

I have a really hard time answering this statement.  It is incorrect.  (True and False?)  The software protocol is the same.  The hardware is entirely different.  I think that's the best way to explain it.

I was trying to use examples but I think that is the simplest answer.

Edit edit edit exit.  After all, I am just a Clueless nOOb.

[Snowdog993]

Let's just see what develops.  I'm not going to be angry or frustrated.  I may be wrong about some things.  I want to see it work too.  I remember distinctly there were issues involving this same thing YEARS ago.  I am saying with the new technologies that are out there now, someone has actually done something that (for back then) was impossible to do.  I am overwhelmed about it.  But I also know what I have tried to do before did not work.
Edit:  I think it had something to do with the keyboard clock.  There are several different types and speeds and protocols.  (I think there are 5!)  Something about that. Some error on boot....   I can't remember.  It's been a long time!  Maybe 20+ years.

I tend to recall when it did work, it would type like this:
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllllllpppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!                                           

There was no stop until you pressed another key.  And 9 times out of 10 it would FREEZE!  And the computer would beep from it's speaker like crazy.

[ezrahilyer]

I have converted dozens of Model Ms both PS/2 variants and both M122 terminal and M101 terminal boards.

You can do this one of several ways, you can go with a soarers converter which will use your existing controller and convert that to USB, and also give you the added bonus of being able to program the keyboard to use macros and custom keys (like media control keys for instance)

To do this you will need a teensy: $16 https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy.html

A USB cable with a mini/b on one end and standard A on the other. a fellow geek hack member sells really nice ones with a strain relief grommet that will drop nicely into the same exit hole that your old cable used: $13 http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-10ft-USB-Mini-B-Male-to-USB-A-Male-for-Teensy-2-0-and-For-IBM-Model-M-F-/271645045405?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item3f3f4e729d

you will need 4 wires to go between the teensy and the stock terminal controller. you can either solder regular wires into place, or if you don't have a soldering iron or know someone who does, you can buy these jumper wires( http://www.ebay.com/itm/40pcs-New-Dupont-10CM-Female-To-Female-Jumper-Wire-FOR-Arduino-/201248059495?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2edb51b067 ), and get the teensy version with pre-soldered headers, and you won't have to do any soldering.

Then flash the Teensy with Soarers .hex binary file, and plug it in. Done and done. It will work perfectly.

------------------------------

If you don't want to do any kind of active converter, you can buy a used controller (or a new one from unicomp) and drop it into the bottom casing and replace the terminal controller. If you get the one from Unicomp, it will be native USB, if you buy a used one, you will get a native PS/2 one, and you can either use a SDL to USB cable, or just use a blue-box PS/@ to USB converter..

-Ezra

[ezrahilyer]

removed because already covered earlier.

[wyatt8740]

I just made an adapter (found a spare DIN connector lying around!) and it does NOT work. (this is a passive adapter, because I was told it used the PS/2 interface.)

[arakula]

Apart from that, he could only say that the terminal keyboards use the same hardware protocol as the PS/2 Model Ms.

I have a really hard time answering this statement.  It is incorrect.  (True and False?)  The software protocol is the same.  The hardware is entirely different.  I think that's the best way to explain it.

Having completely reverse-engineered Soarer's Converter, I can tell you that PS/2 and terminal keyboards share the very same treatment there. Only the response to the "Give me your ID" command determines whether the incoming data are processed through the scan code set 2 or 3 table. There might be differences in the hardware protocol (slightly different timing, for example) which cause it to work on some PCs and fail on others; if so, I'd really be interested in details.

Let's just see what develops.  I'm not going to be angry or frustrated.  I may be wrong about some things.  I want to see it work too.  I remember distinctly there were issues involving this same thing YEARS ago.  I am saying with the new technologies that are out there now, someone has actually done something that (for back then) was impossible to do.  I am overwhelmed about it.  But I also know what I have tried to do before did not work.
Edit:  I think it had something to do with the keyboard clock.  There are several different types and speeds and protocols.  (I think there are 5!)  Something about that. Some error on boot....   I can't remember.  It's been a long time!  Maybe 20+ years.

I tend to recall when it did work, it would type like this:
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllllllpppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This should be addressable by sending an F8 command (Set All Keys Type "Make/Break") to the keyboard  (that's what Soarer's Converter does, BTW - otherwise the keyboard would only send Make).

I just made an adapter (found a spare DIN connector lying around!) and it does NOT work. (this is a passive adapter, because I was told it used the PS/2 interface.)

Sorry to hear that.

[wyatt8740]

Still not working after attempting Hasu's active converter for terminal keyboards.
Just... doesn't do ANYTHING.

Wondering if I somehow messed up the controller board itself at some point, but it's definitely wired correctly now.

Is there something I can do to test this theory? I have a multimeter and an ancient oscilloscope.

[Snowdog993]

I tend to recall when it did work, it would type like this:
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllllllpppppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This should be addressable by sending an F8 command (Set All Keys Type "Make/Break") to the keyboard  (that's what Soarer's Converter does, BTW - otherwise the keyboard would only send Make).

On a terminal I could do that.  No way on the PC at all.   I shouldn't flame.

[Snowdog993]

Still not working after attempting Hasu's active converter for terminal keyboards.
Just... doesn't do ANYTHING.

Wondering if I somehow messed up the controller board itself at some point, but it's definitely wired correctly now.

Is there something I can do to test this theory? I have a multimeter and an ancient oscilloscope.

I don't know Wyatt.  I think Ezrahilyer had your best solution.  All I can do now is suggest you plug it back into the terminal and test it.  If it is still working OK then you didn't mess up anything.  I really don't know what else I can do to help you, I was being sincere.

[Snowdog993]

This kinda reminds me of when I was with my friend Duane and we were putting in an amplifier for his car stereo.  Just when he was turning it on, I asked him....

"Are you sure you know what you're doing?"
"Yeah, I know what I am doing!", he replied.
So he turns it on.....
I hear this very loud "POP!" and a lot of smoke comes up from behind the dashboard.
I laughed so hard as he said....
"That ain't gonna work! I think it's broke!"