Author Topic: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?  (Read 3386 times)

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Offline kilgor

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Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« on: Thu, 25 December 2014, 14:47:46 »
I've gotten some pretty bad RSI from a keyboard with Cherry MX Black switches, so i need something with low actuation force.

Which of these keyboards would you recommed me if the primary use is for gaming? Kinesis Freestyle2, Matias Ergo Pro or Truly Ergonomic Keyboar.

I'm currently not able to play computer games, but as I hope to be able to play games in the future, I'm looking for a keyboard that reduces the chance for the RSI to come back
« Last Edit: Thu, 25 December 2014, 15:08:03 by kilgor »

Offline hoggy

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 25 December 2014, 15:58:51 »
Have you seen your doctor?  If you haven't yet, then do that.

We could do with knowing where it hurts and a few other details...

However, the best advice I can give you now (apart from the doctor...) is to simply give up gaming, at least for a good while.  I gave it up myself about five years ago, I don't miss it enough to go back to the pain I was in at the time.

It doesn't have to be forever.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline kilgor

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 25 December 2014, 16:25:43 »
I have been to a doctor and he told me to relax from using a computer for a while and go to a physiotherapist.
I've gotten RSI because of bad posture, too much computer use without taking enough breaks and using a keyboard and a mouse with bad ergonomics.

I have pain in both my wrists and shoulders.

I haven't been gaming for at least 15 months and I only use the computer an hour or so each day. When I'm using the computer I use a Mousetrapper which I'm moving around with my feet.
« Last Edit: Thu, 25 December 2014, 16:27:36 by kilgor »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 25 December 2014, 16:26:21 »
Can you take some pictures (or ideally a video) of the way you type and what your setup looks like? It’s relatively hard to give good advice about technique just in the abstract.

Offline kilgor

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 25 December 2014, 16:32:30 »
Can you take some pictures (or ideally a video) of the way you type and what your setup looks like? It’s relatively hard to give good advice about technique just in the abstract.

I know what I've been doing wrong. I just want some advice on those keyboards I listed :P

I used to use a Steelseries 7g keyboard with Cherry mx black switches and a Steelseries Sensei mouse.

Offline hoggy

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 25 December 2014, 16:51:18 »
Of those boards, the teck has some reliability issues, hopefully it's just firmware, so I'd recommend holding out for a while.  There are a few stories of poor customer service on the forums.

The Matias ergo pro might be close, being mechanical, but we haven't got our hands on one just yet.  I'm not sure what the Matias switches are like for gaming.

The freestyle is well thought out but rubber dome, so won't last as long as the other two.

If you just want the keyboard for games... Depending on the games you play, you might find a ten key less with cherry red switches.  The tkl will let you move the mouse closer to the wasd keys. 

Another keyboard you might want to take a look at that has red switches is the kinesis advantage LF.  If you want to do some general typing, this might be a good choice, but at an hour a day, it might take a long time to adapt to it.

From memory, both Matias and Kinesis have generous return policies.

It might be slightly cheaper to get someone to swap the switches on your existing board, but it's on the unlikely side, would be easier to get a replacement and then sell the steel series.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline kilgor

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 25 December 2014, 17:00:43 »
Of those boards, the teck has some reliability issues, hopefully it's just firmware, so I'd recommend holding out for a while.  There are a few stories of poor customer service on the forums.

The Matias ergo pro might be close, being mechanical, but we haven't got our hands on one just yet.  I'm not sure what the Matias switches are like for gaming.

The freestyle is well thought out but rubber dome, so won't last as long as the other two.

If you just want the keyboard for games... Depending on the games you play, you might find a ten key less with cherry red switches.  The tkl will let you move the mouse closer to the wasd keys. 

Another keyboard you might want to take a look at that has red switches is the kinesis advantage LF.  If you want to do some general typing, this might be a good choice, but at an hour a day, it might take a long time to adapt to it.

From memory, both Matias and Kinesis have generous return policies.

It might be slightly cheaper to get someone to swap the switches on your existing board, but it's on the unlikely side, would be easier to get a replacement and then sell the steel series.

Currently I'm using this one http://gaming.coolermaster.com/en/products/keyboards/quickfiretk/        with Cherry mx red switches.

How are the rubberdomes on the Freestyle compared to mechanical switches? I've never tried a rubberdome keyboard before.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 25 December 2014, 20:09:11 »
Well I can’t really comment on ergonomics for computer games (it probably depends heavily on the game, but I play games very infrequently/casually, so I’m not the guy to ask), but for just typing prose, there are several things you can do to improve your technique and avoid injury (irrespective of keyboard).

0. See a doctor or physical therapist. I don’t think any of us here can give you true expert advice.

1. Make sure your wrists are as straight as possible:
(a) Set the angle of your keyboard depending on the height of the table relative to your chair/torso: if the table is high, you want a steep tilt, or if the table/keyboard tray is low (or if you put the keyboard on your lap) you want the keyboard to be approximately flat. Try to play with the angle by flipping up/down the keyboard’s feet, or even piling things under the front or back side of the keyboard, to get it to whatever angle lets you keep your wrists straightest. Adjusting the keyboard angle affects how straight your wrists will be in the up/down direction. You absolutely don’t want to have your wrists bent upward or downward, which is the easiest way to injure yourself typing.
(b) Try to keep your hands & wrists & forearms straight in the left/right direction as well, by angling your hands a bit on the keyboard, so that your hands point straight ahead in the direction your forearms are pointed, instead of being angled outward (“ulnar deviation”). One thing that I find helps a lot with this is using my left ring finger to press the Z key, my left middle finger to press the X key, and my left index finger to press the C key. YMMV.

2. Make sure you are “floating” your wrists in the air as you type. Don’t rest your palms or wrists on a palmrest. Keeping your wrists and forearms in the air will allow you to take a lot of pressure off your fingers, and help you transfer impact shock from your fingers up to bigger muscles in your upper arms. Resting your wrist on something is also a way to put a lot of pressure on the carpal tunnel, which you want to avoid.

3. Try to type with a light springy style. Don’t bang away at the keys, but use just enough force to reliably actuate the switch. On Cherry MX switches, you may want to try to avoid even pressing the keys all the way to the bottom, but that’s not essential; the important bit is to never slam the key all the way down hard, as this causes a lot of extra shock on your fingers.

4. Try to keep reasonable posture:
(a) If you can adjust your workstation, try to get yourself set up so that your forearms are flat or even angled downward a bit, with your elbows at a 90° angle or greater. This isn’t quite as important as (a) for your fingers/wrists, but if you’re experiencing shoulder pain, it might help with that.
(b) Try not to slouch too much. Make sure you are either changing positions somewhat frequently or else sitting with your back straight and your head well supported by your neck. Leave your upper arms hanging straight down at your sides, rather than sticking outward or forward.

5. Try to take breaks whenever you can. e.g. stop typing and rest your hands for a bit every 10–15 minutes, stand up and stretch or walk around a bit every 30–40 minutes, don’t work continuously for more than a few hours at a time, but go take a stroll or eat lunch or something.

A split keyboard where you can independently adjust the height/separation and three-dimensional orientation of each half of the keyboard can definitely be a big help for reducing the load on your wrists. But it’s not a cure-all, and there’s a lot you can do to make any keyboard more comfortable.

Offline kilgor

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 26 December 2014, 03:55:44 »
Thanks for the advice. I'll try to keep it in mind  :thumb:

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 26 December 2014, 04:32:07 »
The sensei is pretty flat, and the Steelseries 7g is a wide keyboard that forces you to have the mouse far to the right (if you are right-handed).

I would recommend a more ergonomic mouse where the surface leans towards the right so that your wrist has a more natural angle when you use it.
Then a keyboard with light actuation that is TKL or smaller. Lighter actuation should be better on the wrist and fingers and a smaller size would allow you to use the mouse closer to your centre which should protect against shoulder pain.
I made that change a few years ago, and it helped with my pain, but YMMV.
You could get a WowPen Joy for $10 including shipping on eBay - that is what I use, but I replaced the button switches inside with lighter ones from an old mouse.

The Kinesis Freestyle and Matias ErgoPro are split and can be lifted in the middle ("tenting") so they angle more which is better for the wrists. It is more difficult to use a Mousetrapper with those, though...

For games, you could also get a gamepad - which should be even better for your wrists and shoulders, but the ergonomics of the buttons vary.

I've never tried a rubberdome keyboard before.
Sure you have. Any "common" keyboard that doesn't have "mechanical" switches or a touch screen is rubber dome. ;)
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 December 2014, 04:35:43 by Findecanor »
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 02:10:38 »
Thanks for the advice. I'll try to keep it in mind  :thumb:

Wait a moment, you do turn based strategy? I am asking, because kilgor is a character from Might and Magic if I am not mistaken.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline paicrai

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 27 December 2014, 03:06:14 »
ergodox tbh
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Offline M-88

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 28 December 2014, 09:45:24 »
Not on the list but I always keep an old Microsoft ergonomic keyboard around.  Not the best  feel but they are great to use

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Re: Recommendations on Ergonomic keyboards?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 28 December 2014, 22:27:33 »
The Kinesis Freestyle domes have a light activation. It's a pretty good keyboard. The separation helps a lot with relieving my RSI symptoms. I have a Matias Quiet mini as well. The switches are heavier in comparison, but not by a lot. I think they make it easier to not bottom out. I like the Matias quiet switches more, but since I own a Freestyle I'll probably wait until it dies to strongly consider changing to the Ergo Pro.