Help to choose a keyboard for programmer

[no-cheating]

Hello

I need a help in choosing a mechanical keyboard. I'm a programmer and so do quite a lot of typing. I hardly play games. Ergonomics, durability, clean and aesthetic design are the most important features for me (in that descending order). I'd like some recommendations on particular models/manufacturers, also some critique of the decisions I describe below.

Few weeks ago "S" key on my current Logitech keyboard started going crazy, registering presses on a slightest touch, making typing on that keyboard quite a hassle. I decided to buy myself a new keyboard and this time buy one that will serve me for a long time, not getting trashed after few years like my current one. That's when I read about mechanical keyboards and how superior they are both in writing ergonomics and durability to the currently mass produced membrane ones. After doing some more reading I've settled on Cherry Brown switches and CM QuickFire Rapid model. The problem was that this particular combination is unavailable in our Polish distributor and you can't buy it anywhere (I considered getting XT model instead of Rapid, but that one is also unavailable in Cherry Brown). It's likely to become available in the short time but within last month nothing changed and I haven't got more time to wait, as my writing on my current Logitech keyboard is a pain in the ass. And so I decided to buy some other model. Also when reading people comments here and there it seems that though CM QuickFire is a decent keyboard, it isn't the most rock-solid one and has some non-standard layout - in general it seems there are models that are better than CM QuickFire.

As I said ergonomics are the most important feature for me. I was even considering some fully ergonomic keyboards like Kinesis, but it seemed to me that these kinds are more aimed at people already suffering from RSI than preventing it and making typing more comfortable. I take regular breaks during computer sessions, also have a decent amount of excercise and movement and so feel there is no need for me to pay for a fully ergonomic keyboard. Am I wrong? Still I'd like the long writing sessions to be comfortable and effective. I've read that mechanical switches give you that. I haven't had a chance to try any of the Cherry switches, so my choice of Brown ones was only based on the written descriptions. For typing alone many people recommended Browns as a nice compromise between clicky feel and not being loud.

I also mentioned durability. I'd like to invest my money once and have a keyboard that would serve me for a long time.

As for the aesthetics, I like really clean designs. The less clutter and flashiness the better. Still this is the most subjective issue, so I'll provide some examples. I really like the looks of CM QuickFire Rapid and XT (but not the TK nor Ultimate!), CODE Keyboard from WASD Keyboards, also IBM Model M. I don't like for example Ducky keyboards, Razor Blackwidow and most of keyboards labelled as for gamers - they are too flashy and over-designed. I also don't need any backlight in my keyboard - I can't imagine writing in a dark room (Do you really do that? My eyes hurt after that). As for the numpad vs tenkeyless versions, I'm a little undecided. In general I don't need numpad (guess I use it only when playing Civilization IV : ]), but does the lack of numpad really improves something? Sometimes other people use my keyboard and some of them use numpads.

I think Polish keyboards (layout pictured below) have US layout. Am I right?


Ideally I'd like to spend up to 100$, but I can pay more if I know that I spend my money right and get what I pay for.

So far I've found and liked keyboards from WASD Keyboards and KUL ES-87. Filco keyboards also look pretty nice. What do you think about them? I'll also gladly listen to some other recommendations.

[Ludovician]

Disclaimer: I have no personal experience with the things I am about to say.

While switch preference is entirely subjective, it may be worth your time to consider Clear switches as well, as you seem to be leaning toward Brown. Browns are quite light. My personal preference is for heavier switches so far, your mileage may vary. The keyboards you mentioned at the end of your post all seem to have very good reputations, the the KUL in particular I think it probably going to be your best bet, assuming you don't mind the lack of a numpad.

End disclaimer.

For non-cherry, I would suggest Topre of course, but it's far beyond the price range you want to stick to. Instead, I'll confirm that the IBM keyboards are very satisfying to type on and should last a long time to come. There's a decent chance of finding one fairly cheap, too.

Edit: Yes, that keyboard you linked is the ANSI layout, which is the standard in the US.

[azhdar]

To add to Ludovician words, Browns are generally underwhelming. They are in a lot of stocks keyboards because they are a "great middle ground between tactility and sound", they aren't, I rate them just slighty better than rubberdomes.

Your polish layout is indeed a regular ANSI Layout.

I'd go for the KUL, it has a very solid reputation her, probably one of the best stock keyboard your can find.

[smknjoe]

TL;DR

Have you ever used a Model M or any MX? Are you willing to use a switch that requires much less force to actuate than a Rubber Dome? Do you want clicky or not? 

I like heavier switches with a click. So, I use a WASD TKL with greens and an SSK as my two daily drivers for scripting and programming. I started out on blues but they are too light. Browns are too light for me to and have a tactile bump that is almost imperceptible to me. Clears are just a heavier brown to me. And blacks have an okay weight but no tactility. Ultimately, you will need to try all of them yourself to decide which you like or just stick with what you get the first time around and forget about it.

I wouldn't say one is better than any other for programming. It comes down to personal preference.

[smknjoe]

I agree with azhdar's assessment of browns.

[no-cheating]

Thanks for the answers! So what would you recommend instead of Browns? I'm usually rather radical in my choices and from your descriptions maybe Browns wouldn't be the best choice for me. I'd definetely like a clicky feel, but still think it's quite unnecessary for my keyboard to be the biggest noise maker in my room. I guess I'll need to go to some shop and try them in action...

[Ludovician]

If that's an option for you, that would definitely be the easiest way to find out what you want. Some, like Greens and Clears, are fairly uncommon in retail stores.

[Oobly]

Thanks for the answers! So what would you recommend instead of Browns? I'm usually rather radical in my choices and from your descriptions maybe Browns wouldn't be the best choice for me. I'd definetely like a clicky feel, but still think it's quite unnecessary for my keyboard to be the biggest noise maker in my room. I guess I'll need to go to some shop and try them in action...

WASD Code with Clear switches is a very good board. Clear switches are tactile, but not "Clicky". They have a large tactile bump and nice spring profile, so they start off light and get progressively heavier more quickly than other MX switches and they feel great to type on.

[smknjoe]

You really need to try them if you can. On paper clears look great, but they are just as underwhelming to me as browns in real life as far as tactility is concerned. However, the only clears I've tried were on a used Cherry board I got off of ebay. I like sharp, pronounced, tactility. You get that with green, BS, and blues and some Alps as well. Greens are slightly heavier to me than BS and blues are pretty light. They are all pretty noisy with blues having a really high pitched click that could be annoying to some.

I don't mind the noise. I grew up using Model Ms and it was normal for keyboards to make noise until 10 or 15 years ago when every PC started to be shipped with a cheap RD.

[no-cheating]

I've looked for stores in Warsaw offering mechanical keyboards and it seems there are almost none. Overally mechanical keyboards market is very small in Poland. There are shops that offer them, but only few mainstream models like Steelseries 6GV2 and CM QuickFire, usually only having in stock only Blue and Brown switches. I feel it'd almost be impossible to find a Clear or Green switches to try out. And so it seems I'll be forced to make a decision without having opportunity to try them out. Maybe you know some good video that showcases the difference between different types of switches?

I think I'll be choosing between Blue and Clear.

[smknjoe]

Maybe someone here can point you to a video or two. Unfortunately, a video will not show how they feel. And if they describe the feeling it's only their perception and may not be the same as yours.

Example: Oobly and I have very different opinions about the perceived tactility (specifically the "vibrating" feedback to your fingertips) of clears. He, as many others, feels they are very tactile. I don't think they are as tactile as Greens, BS, or blues. Everyone is different.

[no-cheating]

BS means Blacks? It seems I'll go for Blues then.

[Ludovician]

BS would be Buckling Springs, the type found on old IBM Model M and F keyboards.

[smknjoe]

Bucking Sping/Model M

[smknjoe]

Don't take my word for it, but if you can only get one without trying first you may want to consider how you like the "weight" of the Rubber Dome you are currently using. Blues will be considerably lighter.

[no-cheating]

Don't take my word for it, but if you can only get one without trying first you may want to consider how you like the "weight" of the Rubber Dome you are currently using. Blues will be considerably lighter.

I thought Blue would be a little heavier. Then you've raised doubt if maybe I should choose Greens instead of Blue.... I guess I wouldn't want it to be softer than my current keyboard. For example I was never fond of those low-profile keyboards found on laptops nowadays.

[smknjoe]

Greens should be slightly heavier than the average RD. Whatever you get make sure they have a good return policy in case you don't like it. 

[spiceBar]

I have posted a collection of keyboards sounds, maybe it can help you a little bit:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67654.0

Depending on how/where you work, who is around, the sound the keyboard makes may be an important criteria to take into account.

From what you say, I think MX browns or clears are what you are looking for.

An important point is: when you type on your Logitech, do you feel the rubber dome collapsing (snapping) when you press a key, or do you press so hard that all you feel is the key reaching the bottom?

Do you want to keep typing on your new keyboard as hard (or harder) as on your rubber dome, or would you like your new keyboard to require less force?

[no-cheating]

I was about to order WASD v2 with Cherrys Green, but I noticed the shipping costs to Europe would be 60$. That's 30% of the price! The same goes for KUL ES-87 from Elite Keyboards - 55$ for shipping. Do you know if I can buy these keyboards in Europe? If not, what alternatives would you suggest?

[no-cheating]

I have posted a collection of keyboards sounds, maybe it can help you a little bit:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67654.0

Thanks! I find the sound of both Blue (with o-rings) and Browns not annoying. BTW are Greens louder than Blues or only heavier to press?

An important point is: when you type on your Logitech, do you feel the rubber dome collapsing (snapping) when you press a key, or do you press so hard that all you feel is the key reaching the bottom?

Do you want to keep typing on your new keyboard as hard (or harder) as on your rubber dome, or would you like your new keyboard to require less force?

When typing on Logitech I feel the rubber collapsing. It's almost reaching the bottom - when I try to press the key as hard as I can it moves a little bit more (1mm or so) downwards. I think I'd like to keep the pressing force in my new keyboard more or less at the same level. I think lower levels would allow me to press keys by mistake when I didn't intend to. Overally I think I'm rather on the heavy-handed side.

[smknjoe]

Accidental key presses are a problem with me on blues. They are noticeably lighter than RD.

[spiceBar]

I have posted a collection of keyboards sounds, maybe it can help you a little bit:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67654.0

Thanks! I find the sound of both Blue (with o-rings) and Browns not annoying. BTW are Greens louder than Blues or only heavier to press?

An important point is: when you type on your Logitech, do you feel the rubber dome collapsing (snapping) when you press a key, or do you press so hard that all you feel is the key reaching the bottom?

Do you want to keep typing on your new keyboard as hard (or harder) as on your rubber dome, or would you like your new keyboard to require less force?

When typing on Logitech I feel the rubber collapsing. It's almost reaching the bottom - when I try to press the key as hard as I can it moves a little bit more (1mm or so) downwards. I think I'd like to keep the pressing force in my new keyboard more or less at the same level. I think lower levels would allow me to press keys by mistake when I didn't intend to. Overally I think I'm rather on the heavy-handed side.

Greens are heavier than blues and make approximately the same "click" sound.

It looks like you may want clears or greens.

Beware that blues or greens are much louder than your Logitech. They have this high-pitched click than can be heard from far away. I thought it was obvious from my recordings. Browns or clears would be just a little bit louder than a rubber dome. Ordering O-rings (even if you don't use them eventually) with your keyboard would probably be a good idea, either to dampen the sound or just to soften the impact when you bottom out. Just in case.

[Oobly]

CM Quickfire with Browns or Blues is a very decent board, especially for the price. Orings (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=KB-000-TL&tool=3) are good for preventing the "shock" when bottoming out MX switches, which will lessen as you get used to typing on a mechanical board (since the actuation point is about halfway down the stroke instead of at the bottom like on rubber dome boards). They also dampen the bottom out noise. Some people don't like how they feel, but I use some form of dampening on all my MX boards.

I still think Clears would suit you the best, but it's not easy to find boards with them in Europe. I ended up buying some cheap Cherry G80 boards to harvest the Clears off them for some of my boards. The boards themselves were not good, though, very flexible and "cheap", the quality at least matched the price Lots of desoldering and resoldering followed.

And yeah, smknjoe and I have different feelings of how "tactile" different switches are.

[smknjoe]

Thanks! I find the sound of both Blue (with o-rings) and Browns not annoying. BTW are Greens louder than Blues or only heavier to press?

Greens are heavier and actually not as loud as blues. At least not as high pitched.

[no-cheating]

It seems I won't be able to get CM QuickFire Rapid with neither Brown nor Blues - they're all out of stock. I could import it from abroad, but then I guess I could pay a little more to get some more quality.

As for the switches issue the more you tell me, the more undecided I am : P. At one side I wouldn't it be too easy to click, as I have pretty big hands and am rather heavy-handed. At the other one, I'm not sure what to expect from Clears/Greens and am afraid they would feel too heavy. As for the click I don't mind some click sound, even feel that I'll probably find it pleasurable up to some point. Still having keyboard audible in all my flat isn't something I feel too positive about either. From the videos/audio samples the Blues don't sound THAT loud though, just a little more clicky than Browns.

Still the biggest issue for me now is what model to buy, as I'm not willing to pay 250$ for WASD V2 or KUL ES-87 keyboards.

[Oobly]

Ducky does not make "gamer" boards as such, they make really high quality (better than CMStorm, as good as Filco IMHO) mechanical boards, so they're worth a look if you can find them locally with the switch type you want. If the only one you can find has backlighting, don't worry.. you don't have to turn on the backlighting at all if you don't want to.

[limitz]

My recommendation is WASD CODE in MX Clear or KUL-87 in Clear.

I have both, and both are excellent boards.

[smknjoe]

Have you tried green too? Clears are the "cool" switch for sure. They aren't clicky and not as tactile as Greens to me.

[smknjoe]

If you want to be told what to get...get the greens. Nobody will argue that they are not tactile or clicky.

[Sygaldry]

Get a switch tester and figure out whIch switch you like best.
Then buy a Quickfire Rapid or KUL ES-87 with that swotch type and profit.

Or get a Topre board and win.

[no-cheating]

If you want to be told what to get...get the greens. Nobody will argue that they are not tactile or clicky.

No, I don't like that. I just can't make up my mind, as I've never had an occasion to test any of those switches and can't be sure which one will I like better.

Get a switch tester and figure out whIch switch you like best.
Then buy a Quickfire Rapid or KUL ES-87 with that swotch type and profit.

Do you know where can I get such a tester in Europe?

[Findecanor]

I feel it'd almost be impossible to find a Clear or Green switches to try out.

That is difficult everywhere.
Cherry MX Green wasn't intended for typing originally but for making the space bar heavier on keyboards that are otherwise populated with Cherry MX Blue. The ones with Greens on the entire board are often special editions...

I have read people claim that WASD Code with MX Clears is a bit loud, but I have not tried the WASD Code myself. The Clear can be a bit more loud than others because it is a bit scratchy.

You will find that people on this forum has greatly varying opinions about keyboard switches.
There is no "programmer switch". I myself have been using MX Browns, MX Clear and Topre at work as a programmer. I have also tried programming with MX Black but didn't like it... while there are others that love it.
I might have been using MX Blues at work if I wasn't afraid of disturbing my coworkers with the noise.

I was about to order WASD v2 with Cherrys Green, but I noticed the shipping costs to Europe would be 60$. That's 30% of the price!

There is also toll and tax on top of the cost of the keyboard and shipping if you import from outside the EU.

You are in luck in that you are used to US-ANSI layout. There are more models in that layout (... and more options if you want to customize it )
As I understand it there are actually two types of Polish layouts: The US-ANSI keyboard with the use of the Alt key for getting certain letters such as Ł, etc. and an older layout that was once used for Polish-language typewriters and which is used on Polish Macintosh keyboards?

You could also check out computer shops in the Netherlands. They use the US-ANSI layout there also and there should be no added toll for shipping within the EU.

Cherry GMBH in Germany does not only make switches but also their own keyboards. However, most of their own models are mostly a bit dated and bigger and less sturdy than most modern keyboards. I think that new they often cost too much for the quality they have, but there are often many used Cherry keyboards for very good prices on German eBay (ebay.de). I have bought several.
German layout is of course the most common, but US-ANSI and other layouts can often be found.
You would need to check the details in the article number though so that you get the right type of switches and other options. There is guide on the Deskthority Wiki that is quite extensive. The most important info is that the article number starts with "G80" for Cherry MX switches, and then the switch variation is indicated by the second letter after the model number. As always on eBay, be wary of images that are too perfect - those could be stock images and might not reflect the actual item.

[smknjoe]

WASD and a couple of others make standard green boards. They are not special or limited editions. Most people who knock'em haven't tried'em.

[no-cheating]

Those WASD V2 87-key keyboards are so nice!, that I'm considering paying those 250$ and getting one of them : D. This one below (image from their gallery) looks particularly awesome:


As for the switches I think I have decided on lighter Brown/Clear switches. It seems it'll be more versatile solution, as I'd be able to use them not irritating other people. I think I might be considering buying a second keyboard to keep at work. I might buy Blue/Green (and get Brown to the office).

[brimborion]

Hello

I need a help in choosing a mechanical keyboard. I'm a programmer and so do quite a lot of typing. I hardly play games. Ergonomics, durability, clean and aesthetic design are the most important features for me (in that descending order). I'd like some recommendations on particular models/manufacturers, also some critique of the decisions I describe below.

I'm sure you are already adjusting for subjectivity so I'll throw out an opinion. I am a programmer, and I use vim, the command line, and full screen editors. I recently picked up a KB Paradise v60 MTS with Matias Quiet Click. These are as tactile as my Cherry MX Blues but about the same volume as a rubber dome. It's a 60% keyboard, so it's ergonomic in two ways: mouse proximity and very little movement required to get to arrow keys (but modifier key needed). It has 2 locations for arrows, right and left, and a redundant ~ key so you if you map bare ESC to top left, you can get at it without using both shift and fn.

The mouse proximity benefit is important, I think. Very nice if you don't game is to use it with something like a Logitech Trackman Marble Mouse.

As for coworkers needing to use your keyboard, you may consider a separate keypad, like the programmable Cherry G84, something I am looking into. Then you can put it anywhere you want on your desk, not necessarily between the alphas and mouse.

Just a thought. I like every keyboard in my signature so perhaps I am too wishy washy to be helpful.

[limitz]

Those WASD V2 87-key keyboards are so nice!, that I'm considering paying those 250$ and getting one of them : D. This one below (image from their gallery) looks particularly awesome:

Show Image

As for the switches I think I have decided on lighter Brown/Clear switches. It seems it'll be more versatile solution, as I'd be able to use them not irritating other people. I think I might be considering buying a second keyboard to keep at work. I might buy Blue/Green (and get Brown to the office).

I'll echo what other users have said, and say that IMO, Brown is by far the worst Cherry switch. It's stuck in a no mans land between linear and tactile. It's not really tactile like Clears, but clearly not linear. The cliched saying is that Browns feel like Reds with sand stuck in it. Having tried Browns, it's really not that far off from the truth.

If you're set on it, you'll enjoy the keyboard, as almost any mechanical switch, is still better than 99% of your standard rubber dome keyboard. I just think that if you're looking for tactility without loudness, you'll be much better served with Clears than Browns.

[smknjoe]

I'm not a fan of clears, but I would take them over browns any day. Unless you are ready to start buying "all of the things" don't waste your money.

The sound arguments are a little silly. Most people bottom out. So, even "quiet" switches make more noise than a standard RD.

[LeTrollMazter]

I am a programmer too, and I am considering the WASD CODE with clears or a Poker with browns or the Deck 82 Ice.

[smknjoe]

If you are getting 2 boards get one that's clicky and one that's "tactile" so you can see the difference and don't waste your time or money on linear unless you are just curious.

I ended up buying one of each over the course of a year or so and have experience with all of them (plus BS, Topre, and some Alps) except reds. I recommend everyone do it if they have the money and are inclined to do so.

[Dihedral]

If you want to be told what to get...get the greens. Nobody will argue that they are not tactile or clicky.

No, I don't like that. I just can't make up my mind, as I've never had an occasion to test any of those switches and can't be sure which one will I like better.

Get a switch tester and figure out whIch switch you like best.
Then buy a Quickfire Rapid or KUL ES-87 with that swotch type and profit.

Do you know where can I get such a tester in Europe?

You can buy switches you're interested in for around a pound each from thekeyboardco (uk based)

[Dihedral]

If you're curretly feeling very confused/scared/overwhelmed then that's totally normal right now

[BrewCaps]

Go Blue and don't look back.

[toshiba]

Here's an important but underrated consideration: what sort of work environment are you in? If you're in shared office space, I would strongly advise against getting a switch type that makes a lot of noise. Blue switches, for example, are extremely loud; in fact, I would go as far to call them "antisocially loud". Even with headphones on, the sound those keys make is piercing and utterly distracting. I have no idea how people think it's acceptable to use something that loud in a shared environment; I think it's extremely inconsiderate.

Whether a particular coworker is annoyed by the sound of your keyboard is going to vary from person-to-person. It's highly subjective. But if it does bother them, it will be immensely distracting.

[Oobly]

I'm not a fan of clears, but I would take them over browns any day. Unless you are ready to start buying "all of the things" don't waste your money.

The sound arguments are a little silly. Most people bottom out. So, even "quiet" switches make more noise than a standard RD.

Unless you use orings... Or don't bottom out really hard... Or use a sound deadening mat...

And Blues can be soo loud in just the wrong audio frequencies. I find them very irritating.


I agree that Clears > Browns, though. In fact, for me ErgoClears > Clears > all other MX, but some people who love linears or clickys a lot would disagree. For tactile switches, though, I think the large majority would agree that Clears are the nicest stock tactile MX switch.