Author Topic: Roundabouts  (Read 9478 times)

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Offline plegnic

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 11:49:01 »
If US drivers can't handle a roundabout and the odd pedestrian then they shouldn't be driving anyway

If it was a X-roads with only traffic lights or stop signs, would you walk across the Middle of the junction?
In a conventional perpendicular intersection, you can look each way, wait for your turn, and make your way across.
This is true for vehicles and pedestrians alike.

With cars coming and going at random times in random directions, you are looking around and moving around every which way for several seconds, or more, weaving your path into everyone else's, and any interruption of that complex flow pattern is problematic.

There is no place for a slow-moving walker in that, although a cyclist has a reasonable chance.
And then get splattered by the idiot that turns right at a red light. US drivers generally lack the spatial awareness that you need for driving in busy city traffic or certain roundabouts in my experience .
Never have I had more close calls with people that just drove onto the road without looking than in the US. And I've driven through most of Europe and even through Taipei in rush hour.

Turning right on red is legal in the US though... you just have to be a little cautious as a pedestrian and as a driver (as you should be anyway). I welcome roundabouts in the US. People are getting more and more used to them.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 11:54:28 »
Show Image


Or another one:
Show Image


And they are great for cyclists too:
Show Image

These pictures are intended to be indictments of the roundabouts right? Those three are all awful. They take up like 10x more space than any regular intersection.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:01:39 »
Living in the UK I've been around roundabouts my entire life, never before have I had an issue crossing them at the point where the road joins the roundabout. Ever.  Also roundabouts arnt random in anyway and are entirely predictable....

Yeah but Ive lived around a lot where you cross the road pretty much at the roundabout (without a pelican or zebra crossing or what have you) and it was never a problem, you just look both ways and cross when it's clear lol

The problem as a pedestrian is that instead of just walking straight along the street in a direct route from point A to point B, now every time you come to an intersection you have to walk way out of your way, and contend with weird car traffic. In places where there is heavy traffic, there’s an inherent conflict between smooth flow of traffic and providing time for pedestrians to cross. Some roundabouts I’ve seen basically don’t have any dedicated pedestrian crossing time, which means that during heavy traffic times, pedestrians are basically stuck unable to cross. As far as I can tell, the only real way to get the full “benefit” of a roundabout at a busyish intersection (namely, continuous traffic flow) is to make pedestrians cross via elevated bridges. On streets where there is only sporadic traffic, a 2-way or 4-way stop sign would usually suffice.

I really think there are very few circumstances where roundabouts are actually the best traffic engineering/design choice. They take up a large amount of space, meaning they don’t work very well anywhere with existing dense development, and they privilege cars over other forms of transportation.

Much better is to design cities with enough reasonable public transit to cut down car traffic, and generally encourage people to bike, walk, or take the subway. Trying to make driving places take as little time as possible leads generally to terrible urban design.

Here’s a nice analysis:
http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2015/01/what-if-we-calculated-level-of-service.html
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:10:37 by jacobolus »

Offline baldgye

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:17:58 »
I can't quote you Jacobolus becasue it wont load for some reason, but I really don't understand the notion of how roundabouts are difficult to deal with as a pedestrian, if anything, they are safer as drivers have to (regardless of right of way) slow on there approach simply to make it round the thing. So I drew a diagram of how you would cross the furthest points of a roundabout;



It's really not difficult, or hard.


About if they are better or worse than a crossing, in my own personal experience, a crossing is FAR more dangerous. If someone cuts across a crossing without looking and crashes into someone, that's a much bigger crash than if someone pulls out on you at a roundabout without looking. The angle on a roundabout collision is a lot safer as your almost going to be either alongside or be hit from the front or the back, which is the furthest away from the people in either car. The speeds will also be alot lower and becasue of the impact angle the rate at which either car slows will be alot less than say a T bone impact at a crossing.

Taking up room, isn't really an issue either... I've been to all kinds of ancient cities that have installed roundabouts and they seemed to cope alright and there roads and infrastructure is far older and more protected than anything in the US... and you can have roundabouts at pretty much any size...

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:26:52 »
Like I said Hoff I've never driven in the US

^^
Good to note.


I can't quote you Jacobolus becasue it wont load for some reason, but I really don't understand the notion of how roundabouts are difficult to deal with as a pedestrian, if anything, they are safer as drivers have to (regardless of right of way) slow on there approach simply to make it round the thing. So I drew a diagram of how you would cross the furthest points of a roundabout;

Show Image


It's really not difficult, or hard.


About if they are better or worse than a crossing, in my own personal experience, a crossing is FAR more dangerous. If someone cuts across a crossing without looking and crashes into someone, that's a much bigger crash than if someone pulls out on you at a roundabout without looking. The angle on a roundabout collision is a lot safer as your almost going to be either alongside or be hit from the front or the back, which is the furthest away from the people in either car. The speeds will also be alot lower and becasue of the impact angle the rate at which either car slows will be alot less than say a T bone impact at a crossing.

So what happens to the flow of traffic if someone starts walking across the roundabout and a car inside wants to exit where that person is crossing?  Do they not have to slam on their brakes to avoid a collision?  What does this do to the other cars in the roundabout? 

As I said, a simple intersection has much more clear etiquette regarding this, particularly if it has lights.

Offline baldgye

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:31:53 »
But if there is a car coming you don't cross?
Most decent (in size and/or volume) roundabouts have an area between the lanes of oncoming traffic in order to properly direct it, which is where u wait if you can't cross but are in the middle of the road (so to speak).
Also if it's super busy the traffic would be slow and crossing would be easy and if it's super quiet 99% of the time you can probbaly see across the whole thing and see its quiet and cross with ease lol

Offline tbc

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:42:25 »
if a driver wants to exit and there is an old lady blocking the way, do you keep circling or just stop?
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:43:23 »
Every pictured roundabout so far in this thread was some kind of suburban/rural intersection in the middle of nowhere with no traffic in the picture. In such a context, land is cheap, and all the infrastructure is car-oriented already so there aren’t many cyclists or pedestrians. It’s not really a relevant example for anything I personally care about. I have only spent small amounts of time in big cities with roundabouts (e.g. in the UK), and as a pedestrian I found them unpleasant basically every time. YMMV.

There are some tiny roundabouts used on side streets in suburbs in California, but they are mainly there as an excuse to put a barrier in the middle of the intersection so that cars will be forced to go slower on those streets, and will thus be encouraged to stay on the main arterial roads (which don’t have roundabouts). They’re serving a purpose roughly similar to a speed bump in that case, and the roundabouts are so tiny and the traffic is generally so light on those streets that there’s no problem for pedestrians or cyclists. I can imagine there are some marginal advantages in that case over just putting a stop sign + speed bump.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:49:03 by jacobolus »

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #58 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:48:44 »
But if there is a car coming you don't cross?

So if there is a car inside the roundabout I should not walk across the crosswalk?  Looks like I'll be waiting all day!

Also if it's super busy the traffic would be slow and crossing would be easy and if it's super quiet 99% of the time you can probbaly see across the whole thing and see its quiet and cross with ease lol

If I crossed every time there was slow traffic, I would be dead years ago.  :))  And probably deaf from all the honking.

And once again, duh, if there are no cars you would just cross...that's obviously not the situation in question...

Offline baldgye

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #59 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:50:49 »
But if there is a car coming you don't cross?

So if there is a car inside the roundabout I should not walk across the crosswalk?  Looks like I'll be waiting all day!

Also if it's super busy the traffic would be slow and crossing would be easy and if it's super quiet 99% of the time you can probbaly see across the whole thing and see its quiet and cross with ease lol

If I crossed every time there was slow traffic, I would be dead years ago.  :))  And probably deaf from all the honking.

And once again, duh, if there are no cars you would just cross...that's obviously not the situation in question...

How many times has this been an issue for you?

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #60 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:54:24 »
How many times has this been an issue for you?

Zero.  I never said it was...   :confused:  I said that I wouldn't want to walk around one, and then you (basically) called me an idiot.   :thumb:

It's very unclear as to when the pedestrians have the right of way; I would not want to walk through/around one.

Offline cmadrid

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 12:54:44 »
Saint Louis is a nightmare beyond comprehension for most people, driving wise..


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/how-st-louis-county-missouri-profits-from-poverty/


Drive along an approximately 10-mile stretch along the east-west Route 115 (also known as the Natural Bridge Road), and you’ll cross through sixteen different municipalities. At some points along the route, you’ll find one town the right side of the road, and a separate town on the left. There are similar stretches along St. Charles Rock Road (also known as Route 180) to the south, along I-70, and along the I-170 bypass. The town boundaries are drawn in such a way that each municipality in the area gets a stretch of highway, which can be a lucrative source of revenue. “Theoretically, you could be driving home from work on this road, and if you have expired tags or no inspection sticker, you could get pulled over 16 different times in 16 different towns, and written up for the same violations each time,” Harvey says.


^ This is the case for EVERY major road in the area.

It is so out of control that we have passed laws limiting how much money any particular township can collect from traffic tickets.. but even that hasn't been working

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/koster-sues-st-louis-county-municipalities-over-court-fees/article_09652317-c932-55b3-ab1d-f1e0bc478c0b.html

 Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster on Thursday sued 13 municipalities in St. Louis County, accusing them of violating a state law limiting profits that cities can take from traffic cases.

The law caps traffic court income at 30 percent of a municipality’s general operating revenue and requires that any excess be sent to the state for education. Municipal courts are also required to send detailed financial information to the state auditor for tracking.



He isn't even suing all of the counties that break the 30% limit either.. at least not yet

Offline baldgye

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 13:02:04 »
How many times has this been an issue for you?

Zero.  I never said it was...   :confused:  I said that I wouldn't want to walk around one, and then you (basically) called me an idiot.   :thumb:

It's very unclear as to when the pedestrians have the right of way; I would not want to walk through/around one.

I didn't mean to do that (hence my pm :P), just seems a bit incredulous that roundabouts would be so dangerous to the people of America and yet they work perfectly fine and have done for decades in Europe, a continent with lots more cultures and road laws than NA... like the problems and issues have been resolved and sorted lol

Bad driving isn't anything that has any relevance here either lol as bad driving would be bad on anything, roundabout, cross road etc

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #63 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 13:07:53 »
Bad driving isn't anything that has any relevance here either lol as bad driving would be bad on anything, roundabout, cross road etc

Right.  But remember, many of these people have never used a roundabout until ~5 years ago (I learned about them in driver's ed but didn't encounter one while driving until many years later).  I remember driving with my ex-girlfriend's mom and she freaked out as we approached a roundabout.  She had no idea what to do, and I would not have felt comfortable trying to cross the street anywhere near her.

Of course that's just one person who wasn't experienced, but there are many more out there and I still see people not following proper etiquette in roundabouts. 

I don't disagree with you; in a perfect world, roundabouts might be safer.  But this is not a perfect world, and I'm not sure why you can't see that.  I don't care how long you've driven in Europe or whatever you want to talk about, because we're not talking about Europe.

Offline inanis

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #64 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 13:17:13 »
In New England we have roundabouts everywhere! It is great when someone comes to visit and they have to drive through a multi-lane rotary. People lose their mind, I tell you.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #65 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 13:19:36 »
I didn't mean to do that (hence my pm :P), just seems a bit incredulous that roundabouts would be so dangerous to the people of America and yet they work perfectly fine and have done for decades in Europe,
I don’t think they’re especially dangerous (well, some of them are actually quite bad for cyclists, but otherwise...). I just think they’re a pain in the ass, and make pedestrians walk a long way out of the way and potentially wait a long time. Roundabouts aren’t the disease, they’re just a symptom, and traffic lights are just as bad (with slightly different trade-offs made). The real root problem is car-centric planning/development/zoning, too much free parking, ****ty transit, no care for pedestrians or cyclists, etc. Britain is in this respect somewhat better than the US, because there has been less “green-field” development in the past 50–60 years. It’s still worse than many other countries though. As with many things, Britain seems to aspire to being a sort of USA-lite.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 February 2015, 13:22:35 by jacobolus »

Offline baldgye

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #66 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 13:22:56 »
Bad driving isn't anything that has any relevance here either lol as bad driving would be bad on anything, roundabout, cross road etc

Right.  But remember, many of these people have never used a roundabout until ~5 years ago (I learned about them in driver's ed but didn't encounter one while driving until many years later).  I remember driving with my ex-girlfriend's mom and she freaked out as we approached a roundabout.  She had no idea what to do, and I would not have felt comfortable trying to cross the street anywhere near her.

Of course that's just one person who wasn't experienced, but there are many more out there and I still see people not following proper etiquette in roundabouts. 

I don't disagree with you; in a perfect world, roundabouts might be safer.  But this is not a perfect world, and I'm not sure why you can't see that.  I don't care how long you've driven in Europe or whatever you want to talk about, because we're not talking about Europe.

Ok, well good luck with your travels then.
My original woah what the **** moment was becasue I thought you where walking around the roundabout (on the road so to speak) which confused me a lot lol.
But I can see why it's not helpful to try and explain how you would traverse a roundabout using European roundabouts as an example, becasue as you pointed out, Europe isn't America.

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #67 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 13:56:46 »
EVERYONE NEEDS TO MUTE THEIR CONCERNS AND TAKE A FIELD TRIP TO CARMEL, INDIANA, AND THEN WE CAN START HAVING SOME SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS ABOUT ROUNDABOUTS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmel,_Indiana#Roundabouts


Disclaimer:  I love roundabouts, both as a pedestrian and driver.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 February 2015, 13:58:28 by prdlm2009 »
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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #68 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 13:57:58 »
Saint Louis is a nightmare beyond comprehension for most people, driving wise..


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/how-st-louis-county-missouri-profits-from-poverty/


Drive along an approximately 10-mile stretch along the east-west Route 115 (also known as the Natural Bridge Road), and you’ll cross through sixteen different municipalities. At some points along the route, you’ll find one town the right side of the road, and a separate town on the left. There are similar stretches along St. Charles Rock Road (also known as Route 180) to the south, along I-70, and along the I-170 bypass. The town boundaries are drawn in such a way that each municipality in the area gets a stretch of highway, which can be a lucrative source of revenue. “Theoretically, you could be driving home from work on this road, and if you have expired tags or no inspection sticker, you could get pulled over 16 different times in 16 different towns, and written up for the same violations each time,” Harvey says.


^ This is the case for EVERY major road in the area.

It is so out of control that we have passed laws limiting how much money any particular township can collect from traffic tickets.. but even that hasn't been working

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/koster-sues-st-louis-county-municipalities-over-court-fees/article_09652317-c932-55b3-ab1d-f1e0bc478c0b.html

 Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster on Thursday sued 13 municipalities in St. Louis County, accusing them of violating a state law limiting profits that cities can take from traffic cases.

The law caps traffic court income at 30 percent of a municipality’s general operating revenue and requires that any excess be sent to the state for education. Municipal courts are also required to send detailed financial information to the state auditor for tracking.



He isn't even suing all of the counties that break the 30% limit either.. at least not yet


Time for Unigov, bro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unigov
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #69 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 14:05:59 »
EVERYONE NEEDS TO MUTE

 :thumb:

 :))

For the record, I think roundabouts are fine and generally safe, I was simply voicing a potential concern.  And then it spiraled...  :|  I think I'm done arguing on the internet for...awhile.

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #70 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 14:10:39 »
EVERYONE NEEDS TO MUTE

 :thumb:

 :))

For the record, I think roundabouts are fine and generally safe, I was simply voicing a potential concern.  And then it spiraled...  :|  I think I'm done arguing on the internet for...awhile.

Impromptu keyboard meetup in Indianapolis two weekends from now.  Field trip to Carmel roundabouts included.  I will rent the largest vehicle I can legally drive without a special license.  Also will include a trip to 96th and Allisonville to experience the "Michigan Left."
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #71 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 14:31:56 »
EVERYONE NEEDS TO MUTE

 :thumb:

 :))

For the record, I think roundabouts are fine and generally safe, I was simply voicing a potential concern.  And then it spiraled...  :|  I think I'm done arguing on the internet for...awhile.

Impromptu keyboard meetup in Indianapolis two weekends from now.  Field trip to Carmel roundabouts included.  I will rent the largest vehicle I can legally drive without a special license.  Also will include a trip to 96th and Allisonville to experience the "Michigan Left."

I'd love an Indy meetup with proper notice.   :thumb:   Yay roundabouts!  :D

And oh man, Michigan Lefts...   :rolleyes:   (don't have anything against them, it's just a big "to-do", and I don't see a huge benefit)

Offline cmadrid

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #72 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 15:36:06 »
Saint Louis is a nightmare beyond comprehension for most people, driving wise..


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/how-st-louis-county-missouri-profits-from-poverty/


Drive along an approximately 10-mile stretch along the east-west Route 115 (also known as the Natural Bridge Road), and you�ll cross through sixteen different municipalities. At some points along the route, you�ll find one town the right side of the road, and a separate town on the left. There are similar stretches along St. Charles Rock Road (also known as Route 180) to the south, along I-70, and along the I-170 bypass. The town boundaries are drawn in such a way that each municipality in the area gets a stretch of highway, which can be a lucrative source of revenue. �Theoretically, you could be driving home from work on this road, and if you have expired tags or no inspection sticker, you could get pulled over 16 different times in 16 different towns, and written up for the same violations each time,� Harvey says.


^ This is the case for EVERY major road in the area.

It is so out of control that we have passed laws limiting how much money any particular township can collect from traffic tickets.. but even that hasn't been working

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/koster-sues-st-louis-county-municipalities-over-court-fees/article_09652317-c932-55b3-ab1d-f1e0bc478c0b.html

 Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster on Thursday sued 13 municipalities in St. Louis County, accusing them of violating a state law limiting profits that cities can take from traffic cases.

The law caps traffic court income at 30 percent of a municipality�s general operating revenue and requires that any excess be sent to the state for education. Municipal courts are also required to send detailed financial information to the state auditor for tracking.



He isn't even suing all of the counties that break the 30% limit either.. at least not yet


Time for Unigov, bro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unigov

None of the 'rich' townships/counties support a 'unigov' style consolidation.. and guess who the politicians listen to

Offline JaccoW

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #73 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 20:44:38 »
Show Image

Or another one:
Show Image

And they are great for cyclists too:
Show Image

These pictures are intended to be indictments of the roundabouts right? Those three are all awful. They take up like 10x more space than any regular intersection.
No not really.

These are some of the ones I've driven on that I liked and the bottom one is a standard 3-way Dutch roundabout with a cycling path and pedestrian crossing.
Notice how the first two lack any cycling paths? That's because they are essentially in the middle of nowhere and space does not matter.

What it does offer however is increased throughput of an intersection. This may not be true in quiet crossroads where simultaneous traffic is rare but imagine having 30 cars coming in from each direction.
It may slow down your car but you are at least still moving instead of waiting a few minutes for your light to turn green. And if there is nobody in your way you can still keep moving.
As a driver it really simplifies your focus as well. Once you are on the roundabout you have right of way, yes even the bikes, and with the exception of the occasional cyclist or pedestrian you hardly have to worry about giving right of way.
Decades of research and experience have pointed out this effect increases if the unoccupied space in the middle is larger. Another bonus of this simplification is a huge difference in safety. Replacing an intersection with a roundabout on average decreases accidents by 30-50% (70% in new ones) and makes a huge dent in the number of casualties because of the lower speed. Especially when fast and slow traffic meet.

Why? Again, because it decreases the attention load on the driver by simplifying the road and having less potential conflict points:

(Potential conflict points on an intersection vs. a roundabout)

This doesn't mean they are the be-all and end-all of intersections but on certain places they offer superior functionality and safety if done correctly.
The unease of the driver is just inexperience and will lessen over time. It took us 12 years to streamline the traffic rules on all roundabouts since their introduction in 1990 but as someone who has experienced them as a pedestrian, driver and cyclist I prefer them over a regular crossroad.

P.s. if you want to know more I can translate some of the Dutch reports I linked or clarify some stuff here and there. :)

Here is an excerpt from a traffic safety organization on roundabouts (Google Translate):
More
Quote

History of roundabouts
Published on 13-06-2009. Last updated on 31-10-2011.
Since 1990 roundabouts in the Netherlands, where cyclists on the roundabout have priority over traffic roundabout up and down properly.

Roundabout
Previously only knew Netherlands roundabouts where the line 'right way' was applicable. As a rule, these were larger roundabouts. This car traffic on the roundabout could still fairly hard drive. Priority for traffic from the right led to a lot of waiting cars on the roundabout, which is the flow of car did not help.
In the eighties came from England blow over the idea to give the traffic on the roundabout at the traffic roundabout up and down properly. In that case, they showed much smaller roundabouts also good to the feet. Also in the Netherlands hit the 'roundabout' on. Experiences were even better when the center island of the roundabout was designed larger. This new style roundabout appeared suddenly a great good speed inhibitor. On a well-designed car traffic roundabout drive no faster than 35 km / h.
On the position of cyclists was initially not discussed. On roundabouts without facilities and bicycle lanes cyclists were naturally priority was on roundabouts with separate bicycle paths, the 'obvious' that cyclists had to give water.

Enschede: first roundabout where cyclists priority
Around 1990 the municipality of Enschede suggested this first discussion. Because the speed of cars is so low, would prevail Priority Roundaboutfor cyclists are perhaps no problem. By the circular bike path, it fits nicely into the roundabout and the road user understands that the bike lane has priority. Enschede therefore did a test with a roundabout on which the corresponding paths had priority. And so the Knalhutte roundabout was (named after the Knalhutteweg) an experiment that thinking about cycling on roundabouts would change drastically.
The first experiences and observational studies on the Knalhutte roundabout were very encouraging. Reason for the municipality of Enschede to do in other roundabouts cyclists priority.
soon followed some other municipalities, first in Twente later elsewhere. This resulted in a few years time a totally chaotic situation in our country. The road user was faced with a multitude of shapes and priority schemes and understood that all anymore. This was by all road authorities in our country considered undesirable.

Unity in roundabouts (CROW)
was therefore launched a consultation in 1993 under the auspices of the authoritative institute CROW with the aim to come up with recommendations for a uniform design and priority rules for roundabouts. This eventually led to recommendation 'Unity in roundabouts (CROW). This recommendation was endorsed by the Minister, the provinces, municipalities and civil society organizations as VVN, ANWB and also by the Cyclists. This was a priority for cyclists at roundabouts within the built-up experiment promoted to the recommendation. The supplement published in December 2002 CROW 126a confirms this choice.
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Offline jonathanyu

  • Posts: 1353
  • Location: San Francisco,California
Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #74 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:24:07 »
 :'( I wish there are more roundabouts in SF..  There is almost one stop sign every 300 feet here.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:40:50 »
There is almost one stop sign every 300 feet here.

Roundabouts (aka "traffic circles") are more successful on smaller streets than larger roads in the US, in the beginning, at least, in my opinion.
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Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 5042
  • Location: Koriko
Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #76 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 06:18:31 »
Show Image

That's not a roundabout. It just looks like one ...

if a driver wants to exit and there is an old lady blocking the way, do you keep circling or just stop?
You stop. It is no different than any other pedestrian crossing. If it is a larger/more trafficked roundabout then there should be some distance between it and the crossing.
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Offline vivalarevolución

  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Naptown, Indiana, USA
  • Keep it real b/c any other way is too stressful
Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #77 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 06:42:37 »
Saint Louis is a nightmare beyond comprehension for most people, driving wise..


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/09/03/how-st-louis-county-missouri-profits-from-poverty/


Drive along an approximately 10-mile stretch along the east-west Route 115 (also known as the Natural Bridge Road), and you�ll cross through sixteen different municipalities. At some points along the route, you�ll find one town the right side of the road, and a separate town on the left. There are similar stretches along St. Charles Rock Road (also known as Route 180) to the south, along I-70, and along the I-170 bypass. The town boundaries are drawn in such a way that each municipality in the area gets a stretch of highway, which can be a lucrative source of revenue. �Theoretically, you could be driving home from work on this road, and if you have expired tags or no inspection sticker, you could get pulled over 16 different times in 16 different towns, and written up for the same violations each time,� Harvey says.


^ This is the case for EVERY major road in the area.

It is so out of control that we have passed laws limiting how much money any particular township can collect from traffic tickets.. but even that hasn't been working

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/koster-sues-st-louis-county-municipalities-over-court-fees/article_09652317-c932-55b3-ab1d-f1e0bc478c0b.html

 Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster on Thursday sued 13 municipalities in St. Louis County, accusing them of violating a state law limiting profits that cities can take from traffic cases.

The law caps traffic court income at 30 percent of a municipality�s general operating revenue and requires that any excess be sent to the state for education. Municipal courts are also required to send detailed financial information to the state auditor for tracking.



He isn't even suing all of the counties that break the 30% limit either.. at least not yet


Time for Unigov, bro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unigov

None of the 'rich' townships/counties support a 'unigov' style consolidation.. and guess who the politicians listen to

Hooray for inefficiency that benefits well-heeled interests!
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Offline C5Allroad

  • Formerly HUNTERANGEL121
  • Posts: 1235
  • Location: Miami, FL
  • Watch out, I post when half asleep.
Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #78 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 09:41:53 »
So where I live at the city is looking to put in roundabouts at 6 places on a fairly major road that is a 45mph zone all the way across town and is 6 lanes both directions.  I haven't read details yet as it was just voted on today.  But a lot of people are scared to death of them as there is only one other one in town in an out of the way corner. 

Personally I like the idea of them for various safety and traffic throughput reasons. 

I was wondering if anyone else here has personal experience with them vs a tradition 4 way stop light on busy roads.
Imagine all the people with rwd. And some decent power having some fun around them? Either drift, or maximum lateral G's. Or like the dukes of hazard gif.

Offline C5Allroad

  • Formerly HUNTERANGEL121
  • Posts: 1235
  • Location: Miami, FL
  • Watch out, I post when half asleep.
Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #79 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 09:43:56 »
Just wait until you get one of these babies:

Show Image


Its called the "Magic Roundabout" in Swindon in the UK.

If you look closely, its 5 small roundabouts circling around a larger center one...even more interesting, the outer ones are clockwise, as would be expected in the UK, but the center one is counter-clockwise.

How about a ride with a couple Finn's around it?


Offline rowdy

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Re: Roundabouts
« Reply #80 on: Wed, 25 February 2015, 14:53:55 »
Show Image

That's not a roundabout. It just looks like one ...

If it looks like a roundabout, and quacks like a roundabout, then it probably is a roundabout.

So, does it quack?
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