Key Tronic - NEARLY as good as Topre/HHKB

[spolia optima]

i am sure i am wrong about this. keytronic an mitsumi seem to have the same type of legend application as a white/grey topre? dye sub on these? they do not look like pad printed.

IIRC most, if not all keytronics are laser printed

[aegrotatio]

This Key Tronic is laser etched.  You can see where the plotter stops and starts, like on an old-school pen plotter.  It's really cool.

[aegrotatio]

From the video I watched, the legend is either black from burning from the laser, or some kind of electrostatic process is fixing some kind of pigment or lamp black to it.  It doesn't even scratch off.  It's permanent.

[spolia optima]

I would like key tronic a lot more if they used something other than ABS for the keys. sure the laser printing is nice, but they get shiny after a mere 6 months of use.

[TexasFlood]

Anyone interested in Keytronics keyboards might want to take a look at the thread I just posted regarding what seem to me to be some reasonable deals on a couple over at pacific geek.

[aegrotatio]

Thank you!!  I am buying.
Great deal on most perfect non-mechanical keyboard ever made.
So good, Metadot tried to fool us with it.

This vendor also sells lots of refurb AT101 keyboards.  No pictures, and I don't know how to identify the "good" ones, so I don't.

[TexasFlood]

Thank you!!  I am buying.
Great deal on most perfect non-mechanical keyboard ever made.
So good, Metadot tried to fool us with it.

I can't say for sure it is a LT Designer, just that it looks like one.  You might want to google a bit to confirm.

Could also be a DESIGNER-P2 I guess.

Which one did you buy? I assumed you were talking about the $17.99 black Keytronic PS/2 E039948, but now that I look at them and the picture of the original DAS Keyboard.  Besides it being white rather than black, and the enter key, it's the $4.99 Ivory Keytronic PS/2 E03601QUS201-C that looks more like the original DAS to me.  See for yourself below.  Having said that, I like my LT Designer and the E039948 -looks- like it.

E039948



E03601QUS201-C

Original DAS

[TexasFlood]

Thank you!!  I am buying.
Great deal on most perfect non-mechanical keyboard ever made.
So good, Metadot tried to fool us with it.

I have read a few references like the below taken from the Wikipedia DAS Keyboard page.  Forgive me if this was already posted.  FYI, Here is an old post of mine comparing my LT Designer to an original DAS, :smile:.

DAS Keyboard History
The keyboard was designed by Daniel Guermeur, the founder of Metadot Corporation, an open source software company located in Austin, Texas, USA. Daniel Guermeur noticed that hunting and pecking was not very efficient for someone spending most of his days typing on a computer. He was looking for a radical solution which would prevent him from looking at the keys. Thus he had a Chinese factory make his first blank keyboard. After a few seconds of using it, the low-cost, rubber-membrane keyboard was giving atrocious tactile feedback so he decided that blank keys were not enough to type fast; the keyboard component quality was paramount as well. He then had another factory make the best quality keyboard they could deliver and added the blank keys. After few weeks of usage Daniel doubled his typing speed.

Friends and colleagues asked him many times where they could buy a blank keyboard like his, but this was a one-of-a-kind keyboard. After he noticed a wide interest in this blank typing device he decided to launch a new product line focusing exclusively on providing the best quality keyboard equipment available on the market. The first week after the launch of the first Das Keyboard, its website got several million hits and was mentioned numerous blogs and leading newspapers including Slashdot and the New York Times.

The first iteration was a black ANSI layout rubber dome keyboard with unlabeled keys in a Model M-like shape. The now-uncommon shape and claim of individually weighted keyswitches suggest that it was a custom version of a Key Tronic E03600.[/SIZE].

[aegrotatio]

I have placed the order for the black Key Tronic along with the AT101W I will report my findings.

It says "Key Tronic" and the picture is black and has a NON L-shaped Enter key which means that's what I want.

I'm curious about this refurbished AT101W though.  That would be interesting.

$4.99 shipping for both keyboards, too.  Not bad.  Thanks for the find.

And, thanks, TexasFlood, for the backgrounder.  In spite of the hype of having blank keys, the best rubber dome keyboard (without a spring like Topre) would belong to Key Tronic.

But, my opinion is tempered by my preference of this wonderful, generic, rubber-dome Memorex TS-1100.  It might be the loose rubber they use, or just the full-size Caps Lock and Enter keys, that make this $6 keyboard so wonderful.

[TexasFlood]

I have placed the order for the black Key Tronic along with the AT101W I will report my findings.

It says "Key Tronic" and the picture is black and has a NON L-shaped Enter key which means that's what I want.

I'm curious about this refurbished AT101W though.  That would be interesting.

$4.99 shipping for both keyboards, too.  Not bad.  Thanks for the find.

And, thanks, TexasFlood, for the backgrounder.  In spite of the hype of having blank keys, the best rubber dome keyboard (without a spring like Topre) would belong to Key Tronic.

But, my opinion is tempered by my preference of this wonderful, generic, rubber-dome Memorex TS-1100.  It might be the loose rubber they use, or just the full-size Caps Lock and Enter keys, that make this $6 keyboard so wonderful.

Well, I hope it turns out well for you, keep us posted.

Glad somebody thought it was interesting.  I really expected more of a yawn at best posting this, :wink:.

Kinda wish I could try the Memorex now.

Tempted to get one of the white Keytronic keyboards, already have the black.  Guess I don't need another one, but it's tempting.  Maybe if I an find something else to get as well, so I won't be spending as much on shipping as the keyboard costs, :wink:

[aegrotatio]

Yeah the DAS has a thinner bezel than the black one I bought.  In fact I think the keyboard I'm using right now is the one that is supposedly the same as the original DAS blank keyboard, except in ivory, as model 3600 (normal Enter and Backspace key, plus stepped Caps Lock key).

This was before all that N-key-rollover and ghosting became all the fad and ruined the fortunes of mechanical keyboard makers like poor old ABS.  Sniff.

[aegrotatio]

I may have posted this elsewhere already but I can't seem to find it.
I got the Pacific Geek keyboard (and free tee-shirt) but it's not a Key Tronic Designer.  It's a regular, black Key Tronic 3600.  It's definitely not the model pictured on their web site.

The keyboard is very flimsy, which is weird because the E03600 that Wellington sent me is positively solid and heavy and has the same screw-less construction.  Much worse, however, is that the keyboard they sent me has an L-shaped Enter key and tiny Backspace.  Even though it turns out not to be a Designer, I would have totally kept it if the layout was normal.

I'm having a hard time identifying the layout with the model numbers, too, because I incorrectly assumed all 3600 boards were the same layout.  Pacific Geek seems to be identifying it by the number under the LR mark which differs from the number on the keyboard's label by only a couple of digits.

Pacific Geek kindly emailed a printable return label and will be refunding it in full.

[TexasFlood]

I may have posted this elsewhere already but I can't seem to find it.
I got the Pacific Geek keyboard (and free tee-shirt) but it's not a Key Tronic Designer.  It's a regular, black Key Tronic 3600.  It's definitely not the model pictured on their web site.

The keyboard is very flimsy, which is weird because the E03600 that Wellington sent me is positively solid and heavy and has the same screw-less construction.  Much worse, however, is that the keyboard they sent me has an L-shaped Enter key and tiny Backspace.  Even though it turns out not to be a Designer, I would have totally kept it if the layout was normal.

I'm having a hard time identifying the layout with the model numbers, too, because I incorrectly assumed all 3600 boards were the same layout.  Pacific Geek seems to be identifying it by the number under the LR mark which differs from the number on the keyboard's label by only a couple of digits.

Pacific Geek kindly emailed a printable return label and will be refunding it in full.

Bummer.  At least they're making it good, which is better than I've gotten on a couple of recent deals unfortunately.

[aegrotatio]

I don't know enough about plastic to understand how this black keyboard is so much less stiff than the ivory one I use every day.  It's odd.

[lmnop]

the Keytronic website says the E03601 has a rollover feature. anybody know the rollover?

[ch_123]

Yeah, 2KRO

[lmnop]

[typo]

the 6101 in black is pad printed and i am pretty sure the grey one looks that way also. certainly not lasered.

i kind of like the action on them. it is not nearly to my liking as is cherry blue however. of course i vastly prefer cherry blue to topre personally.

i must dig up an old cherry board with double shot keys. clean it off if need be and i am all set. should still be good some 20 years later. 50 million keystrokes?

[aegrotatio]

I'm going to start hating on the Pacific Geek.
Not only was the Key Tronic the wrong model, but I never got the AT101W.  Their shipping department claimed to have shipped me the AT101W in the same box with the Key Tronic.  Unfortunately that wasn't the case.  They refunded me which I guess is okay but I'm not happy with them.

So, all I got out of this transaction is a pain in the neck and a free tee-shirt.

[typo]

i know many people like to doubt this. however there is usually a reason one item costs $15 and a seemingly identical item costs $250. the topre is better even though it is not my favorite. is it worth the extra $235? that is entirely up to each individual. a new hyundai does most of the things a new mercedes does. i am not trying to make a point because i don't really have one. this argument can go either way. personally i would just own them all. that being said, keytronic is a real nice rubber dome. remember the topre has a spring in there too. it really is no feat to build a great keyboard for $250. the fact that keytronic can build one that poops on logitech/microsoft offerings for $15 deserves some praise.

i think the 6101 is a good board. the realforce is better. i can't say how much better though. i guess i am just not a judge of that. liking only blue cherries. however, i am a c# and visual basic programmer and i don't get the hhkb. that does nothing for me. i like something that eats some desktop real estate.

i think that is the whole thing. if money permits get whatever makes you happy! in fact get at least a few

[HaiiYaa]

Geekhackers are in great need of escort service. Thank you this will calm the place down for a while

[The Solutor]

i know many people like to doubt this. however there is usually a reason one item costs $15 and a seemingly identical item costs $250.

The reason is: there are sufficient people that want to spend such amount of money, to make it profitable.

I'm old enough to remember the Timberland shoes mania, here in Italy, they were sold for something like (translated in actual currency) 350/400 euro, then there were the cheap clones, sold for something like 15€, and they were crap, but a pair of well made Italian shoes on par, or better were sold for 45€. Almost 1/10 of the Timberland price.

Timberland sold well for half decade, no matter the quality of the competing products.

Quality and price have a relation, but in the timberland, like in the topre cases the price difference can't be justified by quality, definitely.


The high price, and the exclusivity it represent, is the main reason to justify the high price itself, it's a well known technique applied on all luxury products, it's a recursive process.

[Tony]

I have a Keytronic keyboard and I think the feel of Keytronic is probably similar to a Topre without the responsive feel, since Keytronic have no spring. I will say more when I have typed on a Topre.

[The Solutor]

The function of the spring is to act as a capacitor's electrode, the slight force added to the dome spring is more a side effect than a wanted feature

[keyboardlover]

Super cool thread necro dudez.

[bpiphany]

The Topre is a rubber dome/capacitive switch, while the Keytronic is a rubber dome/membrane switch. There is a huge difference in function as well as in quality. Many Keytronics are very good membrane keyboards though.

I don't know if it is correct to say that the spring in the Topre is an electrode. There are two electrodes on the PCB, the switch is more like a contraption to alter the medium/capacitance between them. But I am no electrical engineer so I couldn't say which is what...

[The Solutor]

The Topre is a rubber dome/capacitive switch,

Capacitive sensor, is way more correct

I don't know if it is correct to say that the spring in the Topre is an electrode.

You can see it as two capacitor connected in series added in parallel to the fixed condenser represented by the two printed plates, the spring is both the point where one side of the two additional capacitors are connected together, and the two plates theirselves.

To be clearer, think to the spring as two semicircular plates connected by a wire

the switch is more like a contraption to alter the medium/capacitance between them.

Yes this is the same as above described from a different POV, less picky but not wrong (other than the word switch).

[jpc]

This is a Keytronic. WTF?



Earth to Keytronic: people use their pinky to press Shift, Ctrl, CapsLock, Tab, and Enter. Or they would if those keys didn't weigh so much. What were you thinking?

Half of what people do on a keyboard is navigate around and use a lot of modifier keys for shortcuts. Want to CTRL-C? Your pinky pushes 80g while your index finger pushes 45g. Oww.

[bpiphany]

Capacitive sensor, is way more correct

This was discussed earlier, and I don't really think you came out on top... Cherries are being-pressed-upon-or-not-sensors as well =P

You can see it as two capacitor connected in series added in parallel to the fixed condenser represented by the two printed plates, the spring is both the point where one side of the two additional capacitors are connected together, and the two plates theirselves.

To be clearer, think to the spring as two semicircular plates connected by a wire

Yes this is the same as above described from a different POV, less picky but not wrong (other than the word switch).

I really didn't understand much of that, but how is two plates connected with a wire considered to be a capacitor? I would say the capacitor plates are the half-circles printed on the PCB, the spring is the alterable medium in between.

[The Solutor]

This was discussed earlier, and I don't really think you came out on top...

What I care is if if what I'm saying is true or not.

Not if I manage to convince a couple of people with the only purpose of arguing.

 

I really didn't understand much of that, but how is two plates connected with a wire considered to be a capacitor?

Half capacitor, two halves of two capacitors. The other two are the ones printed one the pcb.
 

I would say the capacitor plates are the half-circles printed on the PCB

Any dielectric surrounded by two conductive plates is a capacitor, so even the two half circle printed.

BTW if the purpose were to have an initial capacitor,there was no point in doing them semicircular, two I shaped traces were more than enough.

Instead they are semicircular to maximize the surface exposed to the spring (to an half of the spring).

So the main capacitors are two per key connected in series (half circle printed plate, half circle insulator, half spring X2) with a third one connected in parallel (the one you are referring) represented by the two half circle printed and the tiny piece of insulator between them.  BTW the contribution of the latter is really minimal.

[HaiiYaa]

So to stay on top are these worth anything? I know a place with about 50 keytronic keyboards

[bpiphany]

Any dielectric surrounded by two conductive plates is a capacitor, so even the two half circle printed.

BTW if the purpose were to have an initial capacitor,there was no point  in doing them semicircular, two I shaped traces were more than enough.

Instead they are semicircular to maximize the surface exposed to the spring (to an half of the spring).

So the main capacitors are two per key connected in series (half circle  printed plate, half circle insulator, half spring X2) with a third one  connected in parallel (the one you are referring) represented by the two  half circle printed and the tiny piece of insulator between them.  BTW  the contribution of the latter is really minimal.

Ok, I see what you, correctly, are saying. semicircle-gap-spring-gap-semicircle = two capacitors in series. I just didn't think of it that way. Any network of capacitors equals some single capacitor = semicircle-whatever-semicircle.

What I care is if if what I'm saying is true or not.

Not if I manage to convince a couple of people with the only purpose of arguing.

The problem is that it is confusing. Best case scenario, noone actually cares what you say. Worst case scenario, someone think the person you are criticizing is wrong, when they are really correct to begin with.

The contraption is used to switch the state of the hardware, hence a switch. Calling it a sensor is no more correct or wrong than calling any keyboard "switch" a "sensor" of some kind. It's just confusing.

[The Solutor]

Ok, I see what you, correctly, are saying. semicircle-gap-spring-gap-semicircle = two capacitors in series. I just didn't think of it that way. Any network of capacitors equals some single capacitor = semicircle-whatever-semicircle.

Indeed I already said that your POV was not wrong, call it less analytic, more simplified, but not wrong.

The problem is that it is confusing.

If I speak with my gandmother I use vague terms and I'm fine.

But here, is different, call something whit the correct terms is not mandatory, but is strongly suggested.

A switch is a box with two terminals meant to open and close an electrical circuit and what is on the topre definitely is not.

Its fine to call them capacitive keyboards, its fine to call the whole key a capacitive key, but is wrong to call "capacitive switch" the variable capacitor.

[bpiphany]

Indeed I already said that your POV was not wrong, call it less analytic, more simplified, but not wrong.

If I speak with my gandmother I use vague terms and I'm fine.

But here, is different, call something whit the correct terms is not mandatory, but is strongly suggested.

A switch is a box with two terminals meant to open and close an electrical circuit and what is on the topre definitely is not.

Its fine to call them capacitive keyboards, its fine to call the whole key a capacitive key, but is wrong to call "capacitive switch" the variable capacitor.

Yes I know I was only lost in your English syntax... But there is a suitable level of detail related to a certain problem. You often venture way past that =P You might as well observe that the semicircles have a length and say there are an infinite amount of parallel capacitors and start integrating. That would also not be the suitable level of detail. When we start designing our own capacitive switches we might have a reason to go there.


I don't really care how you choose to participate. I'm able to sieve out the relevant parts of what you say. You tend to over complicating things though, and I just don't want to let you roam around the forum with your craziness completely unopposed

[The Solutor]

Yes I know I was only lost in your English syntax..

My English is notoriously not good, but tend to get worse when I  write doing something else...

BTW I think that English here is a good partner in imprecise definitions.

English speaking people tend to be lazy when something new need a definition, think to car instead of automobile, rubber, tire and so on, key has it's legacy in musical instruments. US inhabitants lack even a term to define theirself  using the vague "Americans", so I can understand why call something with the correct term is not considered an high priority task...

Maybe the same is applicable also in Swedish, i confess my ignorance about Nordic languages.

[theferenc]

Wow, you really are bigoted against US citizens sometimes, aren't you?

At least among people I know, there is the "among friends" definition, and then the actual, pedantic definition. In casual conversation, the former is used, as we all understand it isn't precise, but we don't mind, as we are being informal. For instance, among friends, pi is roughly 3, g is roughly 10, a square meter is roughly 10 square feet, etc. It just makes quick and dirty estimates easy. We know we're a little under, a little over, and a little under, respectively, but that's ok, because we all know it, and if we want a more precise answer, we can do it ourselves.

Then there is the pedantic definition of things. This is used when dealing with academic or professional writing, or similar speaking or lecture needs. We use this when precision matters, when a specific phrasing is necessary in order to mean what it needs to mean. Think math definitions, for instance.

Now, colloquially, among friends, the capacitive based keyboards use capacitive switches. In a pedantic sense, this is also true, as the switch closes, and current flows. There is nothing, anywhere, in the definition of a switch that says the current has to flow THROUGH the switch, just that the switch controls the flow of the current. Look in the OED or an electrical engineering text book if you feel like arguing with me.

Now, there are other definitions of a switch, usually preceded by other words, which imply the current is passing through the switch itself. This is the definition that The Solutor is apparently using, and it is much more specialized, which is why it's usually not called just a "switch". There is nothing wrong with this, in and of itself, except for the way in which he uses it to press his apparent bigotry, and seeming superiority complex.

Personally, I don't care for the generalization he has been making regarding US citizens, as I find it offensive. I also find it offensive that he chooses to pounce on every user who uses terms in their dictionary, rather than specialized meanings. This is supposed to be a friendly forum, where uses exchange knowledge and advice regarding keyboards and keyboard technology. Emphasis on friendly. No pouncing on people, especially newer users. It drives them away, and it alienates others. Please stop.

[The Solutor]

Personally, I don't care for the generalization he has been making regarding US citizens, as I find it offensive.

Why in the hell a consideration about a language (and not about a nation) should be offensive ? Do you know that English is spoken even, say, in England ?

This is supposed to be a friendly forum, where uses exchange knowledge and advice regarding keyboards and keyboard technology. Emphasis on friendly.

Emphasis on exchange and knowledge, you have just said that you couldn't care less, because you consider that knowledge pedantic rather than precise, so you should decide if knowledge is important or not, and you should decide if calling troll an user who doesn't agree with you is a good way to share your friendliness.

[bpiphany]

My English is notoriously not good, but tend to get worse when I  write doing something else...

 
I didn't mean to pick on yor English, my own is far from perfect. That section was just extra tricky to understand. Now that I know what you meant it does make a little more sense.

[Special K]

I just got my first Topre (55g uniform) a week ago, and as soon as I started typing on it, I thought it reminded me of a rubber dome keyboard I had back in 2001 that was unusually tactile.  I couldn't remember the brand or model number, but I did remember:

1. It had a 1x backspace and a bigass enter key, but otherwise standard layout
2. I got it from Monarch Computer Systems in 2001, who went out of business in 2006

I then used the Internet Archives (https://web.archive.org/) to browse Monarch's website during the 2001-2002 time period to see what keyboards they had for sale.  Then I found it:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020817023824/http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=220104&Category_Code=K

It was the Keytronics 3601.  Note that this keyboard had equal key force, unlike the Ergo model that was also mentioned in this thread.  There is also a 3600 model that has a regular sized backspace and enter key.

The keyboard was donated to goodwill long ago, but I just thought it was funny that someone else on GH made the exact same comparison I did between a Topre and the Keytronics 3601, as it was one of the first results that came up when I searched Google for Topre and keytronics 3601.

Lest I reignite a flame war, I will add that while the Topre reminds me of the Keytronics 3601, the Topre has superior build quality and tactility.

Nevertheless, anyone out there who hasn't yet tried a Topre might consider picking up a 3601 for cheap.  If you hate how that feels, you probably won't like the Topre.  If you really like how it feels, you probably will like the Topre.

[neverused]

There's a few of those keytronics floating around my work, I wonder if there's any value there?

[BucklingSpring]

Thread necrophilia -
I don't how they age but I kind of agree with the OP - KeyTronic makes darn good rubber domes.
But you're not going to get rich selling them. They're no IBM M or F :-)

They still make most of their 90's keyboards. Even the website looks 90's
https://keyboards.keytronic.com/home/keyboards/keyboards/keyboards.html

Buy one new if you are interested in the pure KeyTronic experience.

[Altis]

Thread necrophilia -
I don't how they age but I kind of agree with the OP - KeyTronic makes darn good rubber domes.
But you're not going to get rich selling them. They're no IBM M or F :-)

They still make most of their 90's keyboards. Even the website looks 90's
https://keyboards.keytronic.com/home/keyboards/keyboards/keyboards.html

Buy one new if you are interested in the pure KeyTronic experience.

They even write like they're in the '90s. "Microsoft Windows operating system 3.1"... 

I have used a few of these over the years and they are certainly on the better side of rubber dome keyboards. The big difference I find between those are Topre are the hard bottom-out (Topre keys hit a solid bottom while rubber domes stop by the membrane itself).

I still come across a few of these things at work.

EDIT: Noticed that the new ones all seem to come with what they call an "ergonomic" weight distribution of 35/55/85g keys. Not sure how much I'd like the new ones.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's outside the tolerances of a digital multimeter, but from my measurements I'm figuring that the top and bottom (circuit trace) membranes are 0.07 mm, and the centre membrane (with the holes) is thicker at 0.09 mm. To put this into perspective, each membrane sheet is around the same thickness as a sheet of normal 80 gsm writing paper.

I'm guessing the force required to actuate a three-layer membrane assembly at between 13 to 19.5 g based on experimentation.

Essentially the resistance and travel offered by a three-layer membrane is very low. If you roll back the rubber dome sheet, you can tap the keys as if it were the screen of a smartphone, although the feel is more like a resistive touchscreen (as used on 90s PDAs).

Claims that people can feel the membrane appear to be dubious.

[ander]

I have a Keytronic keyboard and I think the feel of Keytronic is probably similar to a Topre without the responsive feel...

Isn't that like saying, "My wife looks just like Scarlett Johansson, except she's not pretty and she has an average body" ?