45g, 55g, or Cherry MX Clears?

[onehungrybear]

Hello everyone,

I'm sure you get these questions a lot, but I was hoping to get some advice on my next keyboard. I was interested in the HHKB (45g?), RealForce 45g or 55g, NovaTouch, or the KUL ES-87/Poker II in MX Clears. I know I have to try them out to really know, but considering that these keyboards aren't exactly sold at the local Best  Buy, I don't have too much options.

So about my typing preferences and needs:

For a while, I thought I was an MX Brown and MX Blue fan. I have the CM Quickfire Rapid in both switches. But when I started using the browns at work instead of just gaming, I found that my hand gets cramped after typing for a  long time. I believe this is caused by me being overly cautious about not bottoming out. I definitely feel more comfortable on blues where I can press a little harder. With the blue switches, it turns out I only like the CM keyboard. I got a Ducky Legend in blue, and it feels off.  It's not just the stabilizer; everything feels a little mushier. I felt this way about the Das as well. I've had the chance to try the WASD Code in Clears for about three hours, and based on that limited experience, I prefer the crispness of the blues a little better than the clears. To be honest, though, I'm wondering if that opinion isn't influenced by the clicky-ness of the blue switch.

For my needs - I type at work all day. Speed matters - not just with English, but command line stuff (aka - how efficient is the HHKB and Poker II's layouts). Noise is not an issue, but I prefer to be quiet.

TL;DR summary: which feel-good, non-fatiguing, fast keyboard do you recommend to a guy who once preferred MX blues?

Extra notes:
*I know the RealForce 87 in 45g is only $20 or so more than the NovaTouch, but NovaTouch is on Amazon (Prime+good return policy).
*I'm only looking for TKL or 60%.
*I'm supposed to not care about bottoming out with Topres, right?

[Dihedral]

It sounds like you want clears. It's very hard to not bottom out on Topre and I think that if you want an easier time not bottoming out then Clears might be the way to go.

[Altis]

I've written about the jarring effect of 55g Topre and even the 45g Novatouch. Those boards are particularly snappy, resulting in a pretty noticeable bottom-out.

Stock clears are quite a bit heavier than browns. Are you sure this wouldn't add to the fatigue?

[Sed8op8]

Hello everyone,

I'm sure you get these questions a lot, but I was hoping to get some advice on my next keyboard. I was interested in the HHKB (45g?), RealForce 45g or 55g, NovaTouch, or the KUL ES-87/Poker II in MX Clears. I know I have to try them out to really know, but considering that these keyboards aren't exactly sold at the local Best  Buy, I don't have too much options.

So about my typing preferences and needs:

For a while, I thought I was an MX Brown and MX Blue fan. I have the CM Quickfire Rapid in both switches. But when I started using the browns at work instead of just gaming, I found that my hand gets cramped after typing for a  long time. I believe this is caused by me being overly cautious about not bottoming out. I definitely feel more comfortable on blues where I can press a little harder. With the blue switches, it turns out I only like the CM keyboard. I got a Ducky Legend in blue, and it feels off.  It's not just the stabilizer; everything feels a little mushier. I felt this way about the Das as well. I've had the chance to try the WASD Code in Clears for about three hours, and based on that limited experience, I prefer the crispness of the blues a little better than the clears. To be honest, though, I'm wondering if that opinion isn't influenced by the clicky-ness of the blue switch.

For my needs - I type at work all day. Speed matters - not just with English, but command line stuff (aka - how efficient is the HHKB and Poker II's layouts). Noise is not an issue, but I prefer to be quiet.

TL;DR summary: which feel-good, non-fatiguing, fast keyboard do you recommend to a guy who once preferred MX blues?

Extra notes:
*I know the RealForce 87 in 45g is only $20 or so more than the NovaTouch, but NovaTouch is on Amazon (Prime+good return policy).
*I'm only looking for TKL or 60%.
*I'm supposed to not care about bottoming out with Topres, right?

Maybe an ergo clear would fit you better than the regular. I just purchased some springs to mod my clears as the feedback I get from people is that 62g springs really bring out the crispness and tactility(is that even a word lol) of the switch. I am currently involved in writing rough drafts for a couple of projects and spend 2-3 hours typing 4-5 days a week.  I purchased a RF 87ub w/55g topres hoping it would be a great work horse and my fingers have been getting slightly fatigued from this. I'm hoping I'm just in a building strength phase(As I LOVE the feel of the 55g topre) however it has piqued my interest in a HHKB with 45g hopefully one of my friends will let me borrow one to test drive to see if that helps. However just for your info I am experiencing less fatigue on my Topre board than I did on either of MX boards (Blues and Clears). So I don't know if this helps but good luck in finding that perfect switch!

P.S. I had a nova touch and returned it. Not because I didn't like it because I actually thought the 45g keys on it felt great it was just loud especially the stabilized keys. I am now kind of regretting the fact I returned it as I have heard that lubing and silencing the novatouch produces EXCELLENT results. However you stated noise really isn't an issue so YMMV good luck again!

[SpAmRaY]

Stock clears are quite a bit heavier than browns. Are you sure this wouldn't add to the fatigue?

You don't have to bottom out on clears to actuate so you can avoid any fatigue that could happen if you were bottoming out on them.

[onehungrybear]

It sounds like you want clears. It's very hard to not bottom out on Topre and I think that if you want an easier time not bottoming out then Clears might be the way to go.

Bottoming out in itself isn't bad, but it feels awful on the brown and blue switches. If they feel ok with topre, I'm totally fine with it. Someone mentioned that there's a snap back that feels quite good when you bottom out with topre switches. Is that true?

And yes, with clears, the goal would be to never bottom out.

[livingspeedbump]

Hm, from what I've read I would go with MX Clears. That being said I couldn't understand if you are under the impression that bottoming out Cherry switches is actually bad for them? That is definitely not the case. Really the only benefit to not bottoming out is the fact that you are only using the energy required to activate the switch, and not putting in more force than needed, which in your case seemed to actually fatigue you more. If the sound of bottoming out bothers you, try some O rings as it will help the noise. You could even try this on your Browns just to see if you like the feeling or not.

In terms of the Topre keyboards, I love my HHKB and find it to be the most comfortable keyboard to type on for extended periods. I constantly bottom out on it (and really everything I type on) but I love the "thock" it makes. The layout takes some getting used to, but I actually find myself preferring it now.

[Altis]

It sounds like you want clears. It's very hard to not bottom out on Topre and I think that if you want an easier time not bottoming out then Clears might be the way to go.

Bottoming out in itself isn't bad, but it feels awful on the brown and blue switches. If they feel ok with topre, I'm totally fine with it. Someone mentioned that there's a snap back that feels quite good when you bottom out with topre switches. Is that true?

And yes, with clears, the goal would be to never bottom out.

Are you sure bottoming-out is what's causing the fatigue?

Topre causes you to bottom-out fairly hard actually because the resistance drops off once you're over the hump. 55g in particular has a pretty harsh bottom-out.. I've been looking into it lately and find that I'm not the only one to notice. I'm hoping 45g is better, but even the 45g Novatouch makes it nearly impossible not to bottom-out and to not do so quite harshly.

By comparison, I don't think I've seen a complaint about harsh bottom-out of MX Brown switches because the tactile bump is so minimal. Ergo-clears would be similar in weight to Browns, but the more pronounced tactile hump makes for additional force to overcome required, which can result in a harder bottom-out.

Stock clears address this by having a steeper force rate on the spring, making them quite heavy past the tactile hump. Once you overcome the hump, you don't end up just slamming right down on the bottom. The tradeoff is that they are heavy enough to cause fatigue in many typists after any prolonged typing session.

Just some food for thought before you drop >$200 on a Topre board thinking the bottom-outs are going to be somehow better than they are on MX Brown.

[onehungrybear]

Thank you everyone for your replies so far. I just wanted to elaborate a little as it seems I didn't do a good job of explaining. Bottoming out isn't causing the fatigue when I type on Browns. It's that I'm typing extra light that seems to be causing the strain throughout the day. I avoid bottoming out on the Browns for two reason: to try and get faster and because it doesn't feel good (not tiring, just meh). It just feels like I'm missing the point of the tactile bump.

I'm considering Topre switches because I heard that bottoming out on them actually feels pretty good and doesn't affect your speed. Maybe it's just good marketing, but everyone seems to love them. I'm considering clear switches because I imagine I'll be able to type more freely without worrying about bottoming out. I definitely can type more comfortably on the Blue switches.

In terms of the Topre keyboards, I love my HHKB and find it to be the most comfortable keyboard to type on for extended periods. I constantly bottom out on it (and really everything I type on) but I love the "thock" it makes. The layout takes some getting used to, but I actually find myself preferring it now.

Is the HHKB any different (besides the layout) from other 45g Topre Switches? Is it significantly better than NovaTouch or RealForce?

[tbc]

onehungrybear,

you pretty much have the EXACT same thoughts (other than the brown pain) about switches as i do.

you should be totally comfortable bottoming out with topre.

stock clears should feel spectacular to you (absolutely no common switch is as easy to notbottom as a stock clear).


i say, go with the 45g for lightness, clears for the mx benefits (cost + customization + no bottom out), and 55g to 'match' the clear weighting and still bottoming out comfortably.


i'm talking about RF board weights btw.  some topre boards are heavier even at the same weight rating apparently.

[livingspeedbump]

onehungrybear,

stock clears should feel spectacular to you (absolutely no common switch is as easy to notbottom as a stock clear).

This is true. I bottom out on everything (Greens, Topre, BS) but clears are something different. After the bump they don't just give way, but they actually get a little harder to press making them fantastic if bottoming out bothers you that much.

[falkentyne]

Yes this is true.
Clears have linearly increasing resistance after the tactile bump, which makes it hard to bottom out unless you intend to.  So it's easy to train yourself not to.
If you're heavy handed and bottom out anyway, then there's tactile greys, which are identical to clears, except the spring is a 105g (?) spring instead.  Only the spring is different on tactile greys than clears.  You won't be bottoming out Tactile greys at all   (clears are possible to bottom out).

[Altis]

onehungrybear,

you pretty much have the EXACT same thoughts (other than the brown pain) about switches as i do.

you should be totally comfortable bottoming out with topre.

stock clears should feel spectacular to you (absolutely no common switch is as easy to notbottom as a stock clear).


i say, go with the 45g for lightness, clears for the mx benefits (cost + customization + no bottom out), and 55g to 'match' the clear weighting and still bottoming out comfortably.


i'm talking about RF board weights btw.  some topre boards are heavier even at the same weight rating apparently.

How are 55g Topre nicer to bottom-out on than Browns? You put a lot more force to overcome the hump causing you to hit the bottom harder. I don't mind bottoming out on any of my keyboards except the 55g 87U... there's a harshness to it, and now I'm trying to switch to 87U 45g to reduce it a bit. I can't imagine OP would find 55g Topre, or really any Topre, to be easier for avoiding bottom-outs, or make it any less harsh.

If trying to avoid bottoming out is the goal, then Topre are really not good as it's quite difficult to not do so.

MX Clear is probably the easiest to avoid bottoming out as the spring gets quite heavy through the travel.

[tbc]

onehungrybear,

you pretty much have the EXACT same thoughts (other than the brown pain) about switches as i do.

you should be totally comfortable bottoming out with topre.

stock clears should feel spectacular to you (absolutely no common switch is as easy to notbottom as a stock clear).


i say, go with the 45g for lightness, clears for the mx benefits (cost + customization + no bottom out), and 55g to 'match' the clear weighting and still bottoming out comfortably.


i'm talking about RF board weights btw.  some topre boards are heavier even at the same weight rating apparently.

How are 55g Topre nicer to bottom-out on than Browns? You put a lot more force to overcome the hump causing you to hit the bottom harder. I don't mind bottoming out on any of my keyboards except the 55g 87U... there's a harshness to it, and now I'm trying to switch to 87U 45g to reduce it a bit. I can't imagine OP would find 55g Topre, or really any Topre, to be easier for avoiding bottom-outs, or make it any less harsh.

If trying to avoid bottoming out is the goal, then Topre are really not good as it's quite difficult to not do so.

MX Clear is probably the easiest to avoid bottoming out as the spring gets quite heavy through the travel.

topre is as thick as hell.  there is a relatively insane amount of shock absorbancy cause of rubber.

there is literally no shock absorbancy for mx browns.  the spring is pathetic and does not count.

[Altis]

topre is as thick as hell.  there is a relatively insane amount of shock absorbancy cause of rubber.

there is literally no shock absorbancy for mx browns.  the spring is pathetic and does not count.

When you bottom out on Topre, you don't bottom out with the rubber, but plastic key on plastic bottom -- as does Cherry MX. That would make it quite different and result in an even more rubber-dome keyboard feel (where the bottom-outs are rubber on rubber).

That's one of the reason that people use O-rings/dental bands on MX and Topre boards... it softens the landing and reduces the sound of the bottom-out (the infamous "thock" is reduced on Topre boards).

I'd wager that the force with which you hit the bottom is quite critical. With Topre, you end up hitting the bottom pretty hard, especially with 55g or the 45g Novatouch. It very difficult to quickly type while overcoming the hump and not hit the bottom pretty hard.

And that's the issue that OP is having: trying to type without bottoming out is what's fatiguing.

[Bomble]

topre is as thick as hell.  there is a relatively insane amount of shock absorbancy cause of rubber.

there is literally no shock absorbancy for mx browns.  the spring is pathetic and does not count.

When you bottom out on Topre, you don't bottom out with the rubber, but plastic key on plastic bottom -- as does Cherry MX. That would make it quite different and result in an even more rubber-dome keyboard feel (where the bottom-outs are rubber on rubber).

That's one of the reason that people use O-rings/dental bands on MX and Topre boards... it softens the landing and reduces the sound of the bottom-out (the infamous "thock" is reduced on Topre boards).

Sorry but Topre is cushioned by the rubber when bottoming out. It's soft, but not squishy. FYI the dental band/o-ring mod is put on the base of the slider, not on the switch stem as though you were o-ringing an MX board. This means that the upstroke sound is silenced, which isolates the "thock" sound, as opposed to reducing it. This happens because the mod removes the clacking of the sliders smacking against the top of the switch housing as they return to their initial position.

[Altis]

Sorry but Topre is cushioned by the rubber when bottoming out. It's soft, but not squishy. FYI the dental band/o-ring mod is put on the base of the slider, not on the switch stem as though you were o-ringing an MX board. This means that the upstroke sound is silenced, which isolates the "thock" sound, as opposed to reducing it. This happens because the mod removes the clacking of the sliders smacking against the top of the switch housing as they return to their initial position.

Is it really? I'm typing on my 55g 87U right now and it feels and sounds like a hard bottom-out. Pressing stabilizers and listening up close to it, you'd swear it's plastic on plastic. That's why there's so much thock. Consider a traditional rubber dome keyboard which makes pretty well no bottom-out sounds because your squishing the rubber dome top and bottom contacts together; that's the bottom-out.

In any case, I just thought it'd be good for OP to consider that Topre can be harsh in its bottom-out as a result of the force curve. It's difficult to not bottom-out on Topre (harder than it is on MX Brown). So if trying not to bottom-out is what's causing the discomfort, Topre likely won't make it any better. I'm not sure why it'd be better to bottom-out with Topre (which you hit harder, even if the landing is a touch softer) than MX Brown.

[Bomble]

Sorry but Topre is cushioned by the rubber when bottoming out. It's soft, but not squishy. FYI the dental band/o-ring mod is put on the base of the slider, not on the switch stem as though you were o-ringing an MX board. This means that the upstroke sound is silenced, which isolates the "thock" sound, as opposed to reducing it. This happens because the mod removes the clacking of the sliders smacking against the top of the switch housing as they return to their initial position.

Is it really? I'm typing on my 55g 87U right now and it feels and sounds like a hard bottom-out. Pressing stabilizers and listening up close to it, you'd swear it's plastic on plastic. That's why there's so much thock. Consider a traditional rubber dome keyboard which makes pretty well no bottom-out sounds because your squishing the rubber dome top and bottom contacts together; that's the bottom-out.

In any case, I just thought it'd be good for OP to consider that Topre can be harsh in its bottom-out as a result of the force curve. It's difficult to not bottom-out on Topre (harder than it is on MX Brown). So if trying not to bottom-out is what's causing the discomfort, Topre likely won't make it any better. I'm not sure why it'd be better to bottom-out with Topre (which you hit harder, even if the landing is a touch softer) than MX Brown.

Yeah, as I said it isn't squishy, that would (probably) feel dreadful. Objectively, it isn't very soft, but compared to bottoming out on an MX board (I am comparing my HHKB to a Filco right now) Topre is definitely more cushioned than MX due to the rubber. However there is likely a difference in feeling between the plastic plate that I am using and the metal plate in your RF.

I agree with you on the rest. I really doubt that anyone could type consistently on Topre without bottoming out. I find that typing on MX browns I can often type while just making it over the actuation point, but when I type on my HHKB that has not happened once.

[jterp7]

Thank you everyone for your replies so far. I just wanted to elaborate a little as it seems I didn't do a good job of explaining. Bottoming out isn't causing the fatigue when I type on Browns. It's that I'm typing extra light that seems to be causing the strain throughout the day. I avoid bottoming out on the Browns for two reason: to try and get faster and because it doesn't feel good (not tiring, just meh). It just feels like I'm missing the point of the tactile bump.

I'm considering Topre switches because I heard that bottoming out on them actually feels pretty good and doesn't affect your speed. Maybe it's just good marketing, but everyone seems to love them. I'm considering clear switches because I imagine I'll be able to type more freely without worrying about bottoming out. I definitely can type more comfortably on the Blue switches.

In terms of the Topre keyboards, I love my HHKB and find it to be the most comfortable keyboard to type on for extended periods. I constantly bottom out on it (and really everything I type on) but I love the "thock" it makes. The layout takes some getting used to, but I actually find myself preferring it now.

Is the HHKB any different (besides the layout) from other 45g Topre Switches? Is it significantly better than NovaTouch or RealForce?

Clears are natural upgrade for people that started with browns. I like my poker but my code gets far more use because it sits just a bit too flat (no legs on poker) and the smallest i think i could daily is the race, but dont believe there is a clear version.

[onehungrybear]

In any case, I just thought it'd be good for OP to consider that Topre can be harsh in its bottom-out as a result of the force curve. It's difficult to not bottom-out on Topre (harder than it is on MX Brown). So if trying not to bottom-out is what's causing the discomfort, Topre likely won't make it any better. I'm not sure why it'd be better to bottom-out with Topre (which you hit harder, even if the landing is a touch softer) than MX Brown.

Thank you for your input! I was definitely leaning towards Topre before coming to this forum, and your input has got me thinking closer to neutral.

The harshness of the bottom out isn't an issue. I can definitely mash it all day if necessary. I really just don't like the way it feels. How do I describe it? It feels  - mushy? Bottoming out on the blues feel a little more what you might describe as tiring or harsh, but I do a much better job of not bottoming out on those. Before trying out MX switches, I was pretty happy with scissor switches (the ones you find on chiclet keyboards). I went mechanical because it felt like I was really hitting keys instead of just a touch screen or something. Tactile feedback is really good, but it doesn't have to prevent me from bottoming out as long as that doesn't slow me down or feel off/tiring.

The main concerns I have with Clears is that it may be too stiff. As mentioned, I did get the chance to type on them for about three hours, and it did feel a little stiff. I guess this is because the resistance jumps up after the actuation point? The stiffness doesn't tire me too much, but it's not comfortable. Do clears take a little breaking in time? or do you just get used to it?

Again, thanks everyone for your input!

[jamster]

Sorry but Topre is cushioned by the rubber when bottoming out. It's soft, but not squishy. FYI the dental band/o-ring mod is put on the base of the slider, not on the switch stem as though you were o-ringing an MX board. This means that the upstroke sound is silenced, which isolates the "thock" sound, as opposed to reducing it. This happens because the mod removes the clacking of the sliders smacking against the top of the switch housing as they return to their initial position.

Hmm. Reading your post made me realise exactly what it was about Clears that I disliked. The bottom out feels squishy because of the continual ramp up in spring force.

I guess I could have modified my typing style to avoid bottoming out, but I quite like bottoming out and didn't feel that a single keyboard warranted modifying my typing technique.

[Altis]

Yeah, Clears are pretty stiff for extended periods of typing. They're only good if you want to avoid bottoming-out and enjoy a better tactile bump than Browns. They don't have any kind of break-in, AFAIK. They can be modified with different springs, though it's a bit of work to do so.

If bottoming out doesn't bother you (which I thought is your dislike of Browns) then Topre might be a good switch for you. Realforce 87U 55g, CM Novatouch (45g), and newer FC660C (45g) are all pretty snappy (harsher bottom-out but more tactile). Older FC660C and Realforce 87U 45g are softer, from what I gather.

[onehungrybear]

Yeah, Clears are pretty stiff for extended periods of typing. They're only good if you want to avoid bottoming-out and enjoy a better tactile bump than Browns. They don't have any kind of break-in, AFAIK. They can be modified with different springs, though it's a bit of work to do so.

If bottoming out doesn't bother you (which I thought is your dislike of Browns) then Topre might be a good switch for you. Realforce 87U 55g, CM Novatouch (45g), and newer FC660C (45g) are all pretty snappy (harsher bottom-out but more tactile). Older FC660C and Realforce 87U 45g are softer, from what I gather.

Yeah - I realize I didn't do the best job of describing my thoughts. I don't have the right words for how I feel about browns. They just feel, "meh," but I still think they're the second best switch I've tried so far. Resistance is good (I'd ideally like maybe 3-4g more), but there's just something about that point past the actuation to the bottom that feels really off for me. How pronounced are the Topre actuation point? Does it, like the Clears, make you really want to back off, or is it smooth to bottom?   

[tbc]

Yeah, Clears are pretty stiff for extended periods of typing. They're only good if you want to avoid bottoming-out and enjoy a better tactile bump than Browns. They don't have any kind of break-in, AFAIK. They can be modified with different springs, though it's a bit of work to do so.

If bottoming out doesn't bother you (which I thought is your dislike of Browns) then Topre might be a good switch for you. Realforce 87U 55g, CM Novatouch (45g), and newer FC660C (45g) are all pretty snappy (harsher bottom-out but more tactile). Older FC660C and Realforce 87U 45g are softer, from what I gather.

Yeah - I realize I didn't do the best job of describing my thoughts. I don't have the right words for how I feel about browns. They just feel, "meh," but I still think they're the second best switch I've tried so far. Resistance is good (I'd ideally like maybe 3-4g more), but there's just something about that point past the actuation to the bottom that feels really off for me. How pronounced are the Topre actuation point? Does it, like the Clears, make you really want to back off, or is it smooth to bottom?

it's not just smooth; it's like it's actively vacuuming your finger down (the drop in force is enormous).

i've never heard or seen any confirmed reports of anyone not bottoming out regularly on topre.  even intentionally notbottoming with one finger is hard.

[livingspeedbump]

Yeah, I'm not aware of anyone not bottoming out either. I've had HHKB's, Realforces, and a Novatouch for a short while and I bottomed out on every one of them. To me it improves the experience. The sound is quiet, but lovely. I never experienced any discomfort at all from bottoming out.

[onehungrybear]

Thanks everyone for the input. I've ordered a NovaTouch to try out, and it should come by later this week. If the Topre is as good as it's touted to be, I'll be expecting to be saving up for the Leopold FC660C or the HHKB.

[colomb]

My first Topre board was the CM Novatouch. I then bought a Realforce 87U EK Edition. More recently, I purchased a Realforce 87U 55g. With the right keycaps, the Novatouch is comparable to the EK edition. Dip switches on RF is nice, but I prefer the form factor of the Novatouch. I prefer the feel of the 55g keys to either though. My favorite feel was an HHKB Type-S I was able to use for a very brief period of time.

Good luck!

[onehungrybear]

So I just got the CM NovaTouch today. I haven't had a whole time to mess with it, but I am writing on it now. You guys weren't kidding about how impossible it is to not bottom out on these. I even tried deliberately pressing individual keys with one finger, and it's still hard not to bottom out. I'm not even going to bother trying to do that - after all, a big part of the reason why I got a Topre in the first place is to get a better bottom out feel. And it is, indeed, a much better feeling than the browns. It's a smooth ride down, but it has a much more solid feel than the MX browns. I don't know if this makes sense, but it doesn't have that slippery sliding feeling.

So far, it's the best keyboard I have ever tried, and now I'm very curious about the RF 55g and the HHKB since those are supposed to be even better.

Thanks for helping me come to this decision. I have two more questions, if you don't mind:

How is the Leopold FC660C?
and what are some good keycaps for this NovaTouch?

[livingspeedbump]

Glad you like the Novatouch! Very good choice. The RF and Novatouch feel almost identical, especially if you put thicker keycaps on the Novatouch. The HHKB has a pretty unique feel due to the switches being mounted on a plastic case. I think this is why it also has the best sound of the bunch. Topre is very solid feeling, definitely a huge plus to them over other keyboards!

That being said, how about  the packaging your Novatouch came in? Easily the best packaging of any keyboard I've ever had, makes HHKB's packaging look like a joke.

If you can ever get in GMK groupbuy those would do wonders on the Novatouch! I have a GMK set on mine and it makes a huge difference for the better, which I wasn't even sure was possible. All things considered the keycaps it ships with definitely arent bad.

I would recommend upgrading keycaps before anything else. As far as other keyboards go the 55g would be the next route I'd go if you got another keyboard. I personally love the 55g (I actually killed a RF and modded my HHKB to have 55g domes).

[Altis]

The 55g is often so highly praised because it's the most snappy/tactile of the Topre. I've found the Novatouch to be pretty much just as snappy/tactile as my 55g RF, but just a bit lighter. I'm not sure the 55g is any better feeling unless you simply want a heavier switch. I do like the RF board more though, personally.

The FC660C has two versions; the older (pad printed) are softer than the newer (dyesub) versions, from what I gather. I don't think it would be too different than the Novatouch.

Enjoy!

[onehungrybear]

I'm not sure if I really need a heavier switch than the 45g. I feel like these are plenty good enough for me.

I'm looking into another keyboard, already, because I need one for the home as well. While noise isn't a huge issue at work, it can be at home. I'm planning on retiring/selling my Ducky with blue switches and I just can't go back to using browns after using these Topre switches for like two days

[xrayos]

Well if you're looking for another switch for home, then get the 55g Realforce. I'm relatively new at this and just went through 3 keyboards. Filco cherry mx red (1st), model m, and a 55g Realforce 87U. The 55g is my favorite and I can see why others are happy with the keyboard. It's a like a rubber dome with some tactility. The 55g is nothing, it's not heavy at all for me, although I'm not a touch typist. I couldn't imagine what a 35g variable keyboard would feel like nor do I want to find out.

[caseyandgina]

I recommend just installing the red dampeners (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-accessories/cherry-mx-rubber-o-ring-switch-dampeners-125pcs.html) on your keycaps in conjunction with MX blues.  Makes all the difference and you don't have any more noise from bottoming out, and it's a subtly soft feeling when you do.

[Altis]

I'm not sure if I really need a heavier switch than the 45g. I feel like these are plenty good enough for me.

I'm looking into another keyboard, already, because I need one for the home as well. While noise isn't a huge issue at work, it can be at home. I'm planning on retiring/selling my Ducky with blue switches and I just can't go back to using browns after using these Topre switches for like two days

FC660C.

[TopreFan333]

I just can't go back to using browns after using these Topre switches for like two days

Exactly what happened to me. My first good keyboard was a KUL ES-87 with browns and I just *loved* it and bought all these different keycaps and everything -- but then got curious about Topre and bought an HHKB. It felt slightly stiffer than the browns, but as others have pointed out, the resistance drops off immediately and everything about it just feels precise and clean and not at all fatiguing.

After a few weeks with that, the cherry switches just feel loud and scratchy and, well, unpleasant to type on. Probably gonna just sell the KUL at this point, plus the key caps I blew all that money on :/

[septamber]

My switch life went like this: 
MX Blue -> Red -> Brown -> Clear -> RF 45g -> RF 55g.

Typing on clears feels kind of mushy after typing on 55g now for some reason. Although I do bottom out pretty heavily so that is probably to blame.

[onehungrybear]

Well if you're looking for another switch for home, then get the 55g Realforce. I'm relatively new at this and just went through 3 keyboards. Filco cherry mx red (1st), model m, and a 55g Realforce 87U. The 55g is my favorite and I can see why others are happy with the keyboard. It's a like a rubber dome with some tactility. The 55g is nothing, it's not heavy at all for me, although I'm not a touch typist. I couldn't imagine what a 35g variable keyboard would feel like nor do I want to find out.

I would love to try it out before buying, though. I feel like the 45g is good enough, and the 55g might be too heavy for my writing style. I do understand, though, that the NovaTouch, HHKB, and Leopold, all feel stiffer than the RF 45g. If you've tried all of them before, would you say the 55g RF is good for 8 hours of typing on? What is it about the 55g version of RF that people like so much? Also, is the difference so big that I'll end up like I did with the NovaTouch? I just really don't like the idea of having to use the much inferior keyboard at either home or work.

EDIT: This is the line from elitekeyboards.com that worries me about the RF 55g:

55gram weighted switches are very stiff and snappy. We do not recommend this keyboard to people with arthritis, RSI, or any state of health or physical inability that would prevent them from using, or building the strength to use, these heavy switches!

[xrayos]

well, the only experience that I have with a Topre keyboard is the 55g Realforce. It's not stiff at all. I wouldn't worry about arthritis affecting your key pressing skills with the 55g. Types straight for 8 hours is kinda tough for me to imagine.

To be frank, Topre keyboards are just like the cheap logitech membrane keyboards, but it does have a nice crisp semi-tactile feel to them. I suspect the 10x price differential is due to Topre's claimed longevity of 30-50 million keystrokes. I heard that the Topre keyboards used to cost over $300. I got mine new for $190. Take a look at package forwarding services from Japan. i.e., tenso.com Tomorrow is the last day for a 3,000Yen discount if you order from Rakuten.com

with the current 120yen to dollar exchange rate,  you can expect to pay just under $200 for a 55g Realforce 87U shipped. The shipping charges are about $50 via Tenso. You do get a 3,000 yen discount if you order in time. I was going to order another RF 55g in white, but my iMac doesn't seem to be waking up from sleep properly.


good luck