I need your opinion on TextBlade's way of treating customers

[spiceBar]

Some time ago, I have ordered a TextBlade magnetic Bluetooth keyboard, a device I find revolutionary and I'm looking forward using it.

I have ordered 2 of them.

The project is crowdfunded, and manufactured by WayTools.

Yesterday I was reading their forums, and someone (soloact) complained that their communication was lacking. It was obvious that the guy was upset, and there was some truth in what he said.

But what shocked me is how WayTools addressed the complain, by implying that he was actually working for a competitor and was trying to sabotage the project.

I told them that it was probably not the most professional way of treating a customer.

Now they are implying that I (spiceBar) am also working for a competitor and that I don't have the best intentions.

I am wondering if I'm imagining all of this or if they are really saying it.

English not being my first language, maybe I'm misreading.

In your opinion, are they really saying that I trying to harm their business?
  https://forum.waytools.com/t/order-delayed-four-times-now-no-explanation-provided-on-blog-twitter-etc/

[SpAmRaY]

After reading through more of their back and forth I think they've hired some idiot (or rather someone who is 'too' smart for their own good, probably an engineer with nothing better to do (shots fired)) to handle their forums.

I also ordered a board just for the novelty factor to try one out, and I do not understand why they are so defensive, because they aren't clearly giving information out that they should about delays etc.

[JaccoW]

You mean this part right?

waytoolsWayTools Team1d
Spicebar - thanks for commenting that you like what we're doing.
We read that you don't care about this post, or want it brought up, yet you have efficiently resurrected it.
Interesting return to the messaging of availability over performance.
We understand that it's certainly stressful for competitors to be faced with new technology.
Thanks for enlightening us about soloact.

I'm not even sure what they are trying to say here. This could be about you but I think they are referring to Soloact.

After reading through more of their back and forth I think they've hired some idiot (or rather someone who is 'too' smart for their own good, probably an engineer with nothing better to do (shots fired)) to handle their forums.

Lol, And that's why there is a layer of managers to shield the world from engineers. XD

[vindaon]

waytools — 2015-03-25T18:13:58Z — #25

There are many ways to have a relationship without being an employee - which as an Indy coder you would know well.

Your systematic purchases of other keyboard brands is also interesting.

What is this guy even trying to say? Wouldn't the fact that you've bought so many keyboards from different brands imply that you're NOT some shill?

[spiceBar]

Do anyone reading this happen to have an email address for someone at WayTools' management?

I need to escalate this, because I think the forum guy at WayTools is actually the one sabotaging the company.

I just wanted to be sure that I had not been overly offensive on their forum... Sometimes you have to question yourself when things become weird...

[SpAmRaY]

Do anyone reading this happen to have an email address for someone at WayTools' management?

I need to escalate this, because I think the forum guy at WayTools is actually the one sabotaging the company.

I just wanted to be sure that I had not been overly offensive on their forum... Sometimes you have to question yourself when things become weird...

I completely agree they need an actual PR person badly. If I come across any contact info I'll pass it on.

[JaccoW]

waytools � 2015-03-25T18:13:58Z � #25
There are many ways to have a relationship without being an employee - which as an Indy coder you would know well.
Your systematic purchases of other keyboard brands is also interesting.

What is this guy even trying to say? Wouldn't the fact that you've bought so many keyboards from different brands imply that you're NOT some shill?

Who in their right mind would buy so many keyboards unless he was working for another company?

It's probably either Ask@waytools.com or jobs@waytools.com

[inanis]

Wow. That guy is way out of touch, even with his own customer base. Unless WayTools is a one man operation, I don't know how they could continue to allow this person to respond to a public forum in this manner. I mean, if this is their best option for someone to interact with the customers I'm terrified of what other kind of people they are employing.

[saturnotaku]

That company is in desperate need of hiring a community manager. If they're treating paying customers this way before the product actually delivers, I can only imagine what will happen once it's actually in the market and full technical support will be necessary. Yikes. 

[spiceBar]

Wow. That guy is way out of touch, even with his own customer base. Unless WayTools is a one man operation, I don't know how they could continue to allow this person to respond to a public forum in this manner. I mean, if this is their best option for someone to interact with the customers I'm terrified of what other kind of people they are employing.

I don't think they are a one person company.

They have posted a video of a hand-on event and obviously there are several people working there.

The problem with using one the the email address that you can find on their site is that I may end up talking to the same guy/girl.

I have sent an email to press@waytools.com, I hope there is someone else monitoring this address.

I'm actually considering canceling my order, which is ridiculous if you think about it...

I'm under the impression that the WayTools guy in the forum is actually TROLLING. But it can't be, right?

They can't have a troll in charge of their forum, right???

[JinDesu]

He responded to you ;x

[spiceBar]

He responded to you ;x

Exactly like a troll would respond.

That's insane.

[saturnotaku]

He responded to you ;x

Whoa. That dude(ette) isn't right in the head. I hope they get a flood of order cancellations as a result of this.

I posted a link to the WT thread above on the MacRumors forums, which should hopefully draw more attention to this problem.

[JinDesu]

Yeah, it would be good to have someone else at WT review these responses...

I understand where the rep is coming from - the OP in the thread was just ranting (in the Rant section, no less!), but it also was a rant asking for a reason for the delay. The rep glossed over that completely as stating that the OP provided a non-helpful post and people shouldn't respond because there's nothing useful in the starting post. Which is wrong - it was asking for the reason for the delay.

[Huxley2500]

DRAMA!

[metalliqaz]

Your first mistake is preordering.  What you should do is wait until a company has a proven product, then give them money.  If you give them money based on nothing but promises, you're basically saying you don't care about quality or customer service.  They didn't prove any of that when you paid them, so why would they think you care?

Second mistake is thinking that crowdfunding is the same as placing an order.  You have to view it as an investment in a company, nothing more.  Investments can be lost.

I looked at that thread and it's full of people who don't understand the two things I just mentioned.  Production ALWAYS takes longer than expected.  I know from experience.  Yet, those forums are just nonstop *****ing by people who are acting like Amazon has delayed their shipments by three weeks.  It's not the same thing!!!

The video games industry is starting to realize that pre-orders and the newfangled "early access" models are harmful to consumers.  Consider this a lesson learned and just be glad if your textblades show up at your door in 2015.

[spiceBar]

Your first mistake is preordering.  What you should do is wait until a company has a proven product, then give them money.  If you give them money based on nothing but promises, you're basically saying you don't care about quality or customer service.  They didn't prove any of that when you paid them, so why would they think you care?

Second mistake is thinking that crowdfunding is the same as placing an order.  You have to view it as an investment in a company, nothing more.  Investments can be lost.

I looked at that thread and it's full of people who don't understand the two things I just mentioned.  Production ALWAYS takes longer than expected.  I know from experience.  Yet, those forums are just nonstop *****ing by people who are acting like Amazon has delayed their shipments by three weeks.  It's not the same thing!!!

The video games industry is starting to realize that pre-orders and the newfangled "early access" models are harmful to consumers.  Consider this a lesson learned and just be glad if your textblades show up at your door in 2015.

What you say is true, and I know.

But still, it is very likely that this company is now being undermined by a single individual.

That's why I'm now trying to contact them by another channel.

[Novus]

The rep's reaction was basically TLDR trolololol you must be spy

Goes to show you that people don't read

[saturnotaku]

I looked at that thread and it's full of people who don't understand the two things I just mentioned.  Production ALWAYS takes longer than expected.  I know from experience.  Yet, those forums are just nonstop *****ing by people who are acting like Amazon has delayed their shipments by three weeks.  It's not the same thing!!!

Asking a company to be transparent about a product that has been paid for but not delivered ≠ "*****ing." Delays happen, and people understand that. Your answer to such inquiries should be, "We've been experiencing some technical issues with the [development, production, etc] of the product. We're working as hard as we can to get them resolved as quickly as possible and will be posting an update to our blog and social media feeds soon. Please continue to be patient while we work to bring to you the best product we can. Thanks again for all your phenomenal support."

Not exactly rocket science here.

[jacobolus]

The waytools representative uses lots of big words, but in unidiomatic / incorrect / awkward ways, as if he’s a non-native English speaker writing using a bilingual dictionary, or a high school student who just got his first thesaurus. It’s very disorienting to read.

Anyway, everyone, I wouldn’t worry about this. Yeah, their rep is paranoid and he sucks at customer relations (or to be generous, had a really bad few days). That doesn’t really imply anything about the company more broadly.

All brand new hardware products have schedule slips, typically in the 6–24 months range, and small companies making new hardware, especially after large, successful crowd-funding efforts, end up in way over their heads; repeated delays (i.e. poor estimates of how long things will take) and poor communication about delays is the norm. If it takes a few extra months, that’s just how things go with hardware. Any customer who can’t tolerate such delays (or, frankly, anyone who can’t tolerate the company failing and never delivering anything) shouldn’t be pre-ordering brand new hardware products from small companies.

[JinDesu]

Or he's a tool (pun intended) trying to sound smart.

[Novus]

The rep's dis-junction is almost like one of teepee's OT threads.

[metalliqaz]

Yeah the rep manning the forums isn't very good at customer service.  Not very surprising, to be honest.  The Internet is littered with people like that who carry on for long periods of time until they say something REALLY bad and then the company has a viral disaster on their hands.

[omgbbl]

It is conspicuous that this mischaracterization is willful.

What on Earth is this person going on about?! 

The assymetry of word count is evidence of who spends inordinate effort here.

Word count would've been far less if the official response from these guys running the show wasn't so accusatory in nature.  Even a very canned response would've been sufficient.  Instead, it's a stream of paranoid consciousness.  Strange stuff.

Yes, the world is out to sabotage your plan to make a really, really tiny keyboard. 

[saturnotaku]

All brand new hardware products have schedule slips, typically in the 6–24 months range, and small companies making new hardware, especially after large, successful crowd-funding efforts, end up in way over their heads; repeated delays (i.e. poor estimates of how long things will take) and poor communication about delays is the norm. If it takes a few extra months, that’s just how things go with hardware. Any customer who can’t tolerate such delays (or, frankly, anyone who can’t tolerate the company failing and never delivering anything) shouldn’t be pre-ordering brand new hardware products from small companies.

I've participated in plenty of Kickstarters, be it for games, tech, or fashion, and all save for maybe one or two, were very upfront about delays. Sure, there were canned responses similar to what I posted above, but that's certainly better than radio silence or what you're seeing about the TextBlade.

[jacobolus]

How many kickstarter projects for brand new complicated-to-manufacture hardware projects have you participated in? All the ones I’ve been involved in slipped by at least 6 months, and most of them sucked at communicating what was going on.

[spiceBar]

The waytools representative uses lots of big words, but in unidiomatic / incorrect / awkward ways, as if he’s a non-native English speaker writing using a bilingual dictionary, or a high school student who just got his first thesaurus. It’s very disorienting to read.

Anyway, everyone, I wouldn’t worry about this. Yeah, their rep is paranoid and he sucks at customer relations (or to be generous, had a really bad few days). That doesn’t really imply anything about the company more broadly.

All brand new hardware products have schedule slips, typically in the 6–24 months range, and small companies making new hardware, especially after large, successful crowd-funding efforts, end up in way over their heads; repeated delays (i.e. poor estimates of how long things will take) and poor communication about delays is the norm. If it takes a few extra months, that’s just how things go with hardware. Any customer who can’t tolerate such delays (or, frankly, anyone who can’t tolerate the company failing and never delivering anything) shouldn’t be pre-ordering brand new hardware products from small companies.

I agree with you, but please note that the problem is not the delays.

The problem is how unprofessionally the forum employee is handling this. I wanted to be sure, and apparently I'm not hallucinating, several other people agree.

I have made up my mind now: either the management does something about her or him when they are informed of this behavior, or I cannot trust the management and in this case I just cancel my order.

I you are treated this way when you complain about a delay (which I did not, actually), what is going to happen when you have a problem with the product and need to return it?

As someone else pointed out, by ordering a product before it is actually built, what I have done is an investment in this company. If I cannot trust them, I just get out of this.

[saturnotaku]

How many kickstarter projects for brand new complicated-to-manufacture hardware projects have you participated in? All the ones I’ve been involved in slipped by at least 6 months, and most of them sucked at communicating what was going on.

You're missing the forest through the trees here. The delay is not the problem - it is the complete lack of professionalism on the part of the company. Even zero communication at all would be preferable to what we're seeing.

[jacobolus]

The problem is how unprofessionally the forum employee is handling this. I wanted to be sure, and apparently I'm not hallucinating, several other people agree.

I have made up my mind now: either the management does something about her or him when they are informed of this behavior, or I cannot trust the management and in this case I just cancel my order.

I you are treated this way when you complain about a delay (which I did not, actually), what is going to happen when you have a problem with the product and need to return it?

That’s certainly your prerogative, but I think you’re blowing it out of proportion. These guys are all under an incredible amount of stress to get their product out the door, and they stuck someone who is emotionally invested in the project to the point of paranoia to be their forum rep.

Yeah, they should get someone else on that job asap, because he’s doing them harm. But you also shouldn’t read too much into it, IMO. The internet makes it very easy to misinterpret people’s intentions and tone, which is why we have so many flamewars online. Many people and most engineers make terrible customer-facing company representatives, especially online. Having a bad forum rep on a small engineering-focused team doesn’t really indicate anything about the company’s values more generally, other than that they’re stressed out and bad at PR. I’m sure once the product is actually done and shipped, they’ll all be able to relax and get enough sleep and find someone who deals with customers a bit more appropriately.

I realize that companies aren’t (in general) very transparent about what goes on inside, so it’s tempting to use their rep’s words on their forum as a strong signal about what their priorities, values, and internal processes are, just because it’s the only signal available. But I don’t personally think it indicates very much at all. If I were pre-ordering one of these (which, to be clear, I’m not) I wouldn’t worry about this yet.

[spiceBar]

The problem is how unprofessionally the forum employee is handling this. I wanted to be sure, and apparently I'm not hallucinating, several other people agree.

I have made up my mind now: either the management does something about her or him when they are informed of this behavior, or I cannot trust the management and in this case I just cancel my order.

I you are treated this way when you complain about a delay (which I did not, actually), what is going to happen when you have a problem with the product and need to return it?

That’s certainly your prerogative, but I think you’re blowing it out of proportion. These guys are all under an incredible amount of stress to get their product out the door, and they stuck someone who is emotionally invested in the project to the point of paranoia to be their forum rep.

Yeah, they should get someone else on that job asap, because he’s doing them harm. But you also shouldn’t read too much into it, IMO. The internet makes it very easy to misinterpret people’s intentions and tone, which is why we have so many flamewars online. Many people and most engineers make terrible customer-facing company representatives, especially online. Having a bad forum rep on a small engineering-focused team doesn’t really indicate anything about the company’s values more generally, other than that they’re stressed out and bad at PR. I’m sure once the product is actually done and shipped, they’ll all be able to relax and get enough sleep and find someone who deals with customers a bit more appropriately.

I realize that companies aren’t (in general) very transparent about what goes on inside, so it’s tempting to use their rep’s words on their forum as a strong signal about what their priorities, values, and internal processes are, just because it’s the only signal available. But I don’t personally think it indicates very much at all. If I were pre-ordering one of these (which, to be clear, I’m not) I wouldn’t worry about this yet.

Yes, you are right.

This is why I have contacted ask@waytools.com and press@waytools.com to ask them if this mess was endorsed by the company.

I expect a more professional answer, and then I'll think about it.

[tbc]

not trolling here.

but didn't tp4tissue say his job was with customer support?

[Bromono]

not trolling here.

but didn't tp4tissue say his job was with customer support?

this all makes sense now...

[spiceBar]

not trolling here.

but didn't tp4tissue say his job was with customer support?

Yes, but he has a sense of humor.

I cannot feel any sense of humor in the answers from the WayTools employee.

Or maybe he was joking all the time? 

The only explanation, the only way to make it acceptable, is that it is a gigantic joke. 

[FoC_Tow]

There is probably truth to both sides of this, as like jacobolus said its very easy to misread someones tone on the internets.

I very much believe the TextBlade is real and wouldn't be concerned honestly if I had (pre)ordered one already.
Since they are using a few pretty innovative designs its also kind of understandable there might be a few delays since they probably want to deliver there customers the best product possible!
So its fair to say they are going to a lot of stress and pressure atm.

However the original statement that they should be a little more clear about delays and just announce and explain why those delays happen to, make sure people actually understand so everyone stays happy to begin with simple as that, probably hold lots of truth.

The way then flamed spiceBar and other people involved really isn't ok, and they probably blew their fear of someone trying to sabotage them way out of proportion as well.
I'm not saying that might never happen in the real world but I think chances are pretty slim especially for something as unique as the TextBlade that doesn't even have direct competitors afaik.

Even considering they would actually have a serious reason to believe someone to be associated with another company its still not the correct way to attack customers without evidence beyond doubt.

The line of argumentation seems to be a little like Customer: 'I'm a fan guys, I ordered two TextBlades and other boards this month'
Which to me reads i wouldn't choose one over the other, since the TextBlade fits a unique use scenario plus I'm a GeekHack (more like WalletHack) member. xD

WayTools: 'He ordered more then one keyboard in one month plus admitted some may be other brands... -> Obvious proof he's associated to competitors trying to sabotage!


Honestly we probably shouldn't let our opinion about the TextBlade be affected by a single person in their own customer support, but they should definitely also change their customer support policy or the person in charge for this.
Customers need to be treaded like customers after all and you can't just imply bad intentions to people trying to give constructive criticism.

Im really sorry for spiceBar and everyone else they did this to tbh. =/

Most GeekHackers probably understand how our hobby and dedication to keyboards can seem crazy for people who aren't involved,
but its very unprofessional for a customer service to bash you or imply bad intents for telling them I ordered more the one board recently for example.

[derezzed]

I still believe the TextBlade could be a great product.  My impression of the company was pretty favorable and, though I was impressed by their communication with me via email, my enthusiasm for it has cooled significantly since looking through WayTool's forums.  The issue is evident in just one thread, but in several.  The WayTools account takes turns being accusatory and condescending, with a generous portion of paranoia.  My confidence in their customer support is lacking.

https://forum.waytools.com/t/we-need-hard-core-evidence-to-prove-it-real/188/17


https://forum.waytools.com/t/conflicted-by-immediate-payment-on-orders/250

It's like WayTools hired a debt collections agency to act as its customer relations department.

Like it or not, this person(s) is the face of WayTools to its current and potential customers.  If someone higher up isn't occasionally checking the forums just to get a feel for general customer mood, this speaks poorly of the company.  If they are deliberately ignoring the channel that allows their customers to communicate to them and just letting someone handle it so they don't have to deal with it, that would be even worse.  If they are fully aware of and/or involved in these exchanges, I would not want to have any interaction with this company.  I was tempted by the free extras that were promised to early adopters but I don't feel that it's worth the risk and/or aggravation of having to deal with WayTools.   I hope WayTools can mend its reputation in the future because the TextBlade looks like a great solution to handling text input on mobile devices, but for now, I'll pass.

[JinDesu]

Sucks that they closed the thread, Spicebar can you post any communications updates if you get them?

[spiceBar]

When I was trying to answer, the forum has automatically created a new topic.

The link to the new thread is:
  https://forum.waytools.com/t/the-way-waytools-handle-customers-complains/337

I expect them to block my account soon.

[berserkfan]

When I was trying to answer, the forum has automatically created a new topic.

The link to the new thread is:
  https://forum.waytools.com/t/the-way-waytools-handle-customers-complains/337

I expect them to block my account soon.

I think the poster Korova, who posted 44 minutes before I am making this post, sums things up nicely and diplomatically...

"I agree there is a disturbing dichotomy between the "customers first" tone on the website and the way the company conducts itself on the Forum... ... I cannot in good faith encourage friends, colleagues, and members of the online review communities I participate in to place preorders.

So for better or for worse, I believe that the company will be discovering the downsides of its communication approach... ... it is difficult to gain trust and positive word-of-mouth but very easy to squander it."

I think this is a genuine company, now that they have had hands on demos for reviewers to write about. I also think this is a company with zero sense of customer support, after having read a bunch of stuff on their site. The whole attitude smacks of arrogant engineers bestowing their wonderful invention on the proletarian masses, and all feedback that they haven't thought of themselves is blasphemy on their greatness and holiness by luddite infidels.

In less than 12 months, Chinese manufacturers will be churning out $39 knockoffs. I don't care about the legality. My goodwill towards this company is negative and I'd rather support a Chinese manufacturer who has not pissed me off.

[Sencha]

Sweet! thanks for the heads-up. Won't be going near a company that would have someone like that on board

[jacobolus]

In less than 12 months, Chinese manufacturers will be churning out $39 knockoffs. I don't care about the legality. My goodwill towards this company is negative and I'd rather support a Chinese manufacturer who has not pissed me off.

Not only is this IMO quite unlikely (wanna put a bet down on it?), but as a personal strategy, assuming you actually want to use the keyboard, this is idiotic.

At least 50% of what makes this product good or bad to use in practice is the software support. Presumably you’re hoping these Chinese knock-offs just precisely clone everything from the mechanical and electrical design down to the firmware so that the same software works for both the original and the knock-off version, and then you’re happy to deal with the total lack of support that goes along with using the knock-off version. More likely though, everything will not quite work out, and it’ll either be a huge amount of work and hassle, huge waste of time, or they’ll ship different software, which will suck.

(Not to mention it’s really silly to brag about how excited you are to steal from these guys, just because they have one ****ty customer support rep.)

[taylordcraig]

"We didn't create a major step forward to half do it."

HAVE?

[Polymer]

That was seriously one of the oddest series of responses I've seen from, what I guess is, the company's customer service rep? 

I mean, I can sort of see how someone gets like that..they're tired of repeatedly being nice..of repeatedly explaining the same thing over and over...explaining why certain things happened...You eventually get jaded. 

But still, rather address certain shortfalls they're making excuses...instead of apologizing they're verbally attacking and abusing their customers...

All it would take is..."Thank you for the feedback.  We will try out best to improve our communication to our customers".  Done..

Haha...so strange...I agree, it almost seemed like a troll...

[spiceBar]

That was seriously one of the oddest series of responses I've seen from, what I guess is, the company's customer service rep? 

I mean, I can sort of see how someone gets like that..they're tired of repeatedly being nice..of repeatedly explaining the same thing over and over...explaining why certain things happened...You eventually get jaded. 

But still, rather address certain shortfalls they're making excuses...instead of apologizing they're verbally attacking and abusing their customers...

All it would take is..."Thank you for the feedback.  We will try out best to improve our communication to our customers".  Done..

Haha...so strange...I agree, it almost seemed like a troll...

I have spend some time reading all the forum (which isn't a lot actually), and now I notice that the account named "waytools", the paranoid one, is able to answer questions that go from the most intricate mechanical specs, the electronics, and all the way to the various parts of the software. He even accepts and select requests, and explains the direction they want to take for the future.

I don't think it's just a customer service representative or the guy in charge of the website. Or he would have to constantly bother the other ones (they must be a very small company) to get information and give such detailed answers.

This and the slightly patronizing tone, I think this guy is one of the main designers of the product.

[Polymer]

I have spend some time reading all the forum (which isn't a lot actually), and now I notice that the account named "waytools", the paranoid one, is able to answer questions that go from the most intricate mechanical specs, the electronics, and all the way to the various parts of the software. He even accepts and select requests, and explains the direction they want to take for the future.

I don't think it's just a customer service representative or the guy in charge of the website. Or he would have to constantly bother the other ones (they must be a very small company) to get information and give such detailed answers.

This and the slightly patronizing tone, I think this guy is one of the main designers of the product.

It could be...and that makes sense given the responses..

You'd have to be completely socially inept to think responding like that is a good idea....That's why those people get locked in a room to think and do work and are not allowed to interact with customers..I mean, he could be one of the founders and one of the brains behind the product...but that's just another argument for hiring someone to handle your social media...

Haha...I wonder if he's bothered to come on here or is even reading this now....I should watch what I say because I might accused of being a spy for their competitor(s)...

Thank you for sharing this..seriously..