Author Topic: Lube Review Teaser  (Read 2907 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Lube Review Teaser
« on: Sun, 17 May 2015, 17:58:36 »
This is a continuation of this thread where I asked what you want to see in a lube review.  In preparation for the review, the switches were all disassembled and cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner.

I want a little time to really put the switches through some tests and figure out the best way to really test them and come to a conclusion.  I do think some of the results will be surprising to people though and I plan on sending them to at least one or two other people so they can do a blind comparison and rank them based on feeling.

One potentially contentious finding relates to springs.  Surprisingly, the 50g Sprit spring appeared to be a decent source of friction in the key press.  When pressing the switches, I noticed some noise and friction that I surmised was from the spring.  After lightly oiling the springs with Victorinox Multi-Tool Oil and patting them down, there was a pretty noticeable difference in feel and sound.  I'm not sure if that will remain after it settles, but I did notice it right after oiling them.  I wonder if a spray lube might work better for that than the multi-tool oil.








One thing I predict that some people will be unhappy with is that I did not pre-sort the switches into scratchy, not so scratchy, and smooth.  The logic behind this was that a truly good lube would be one that is agnostic to the prior feel.  A superior lube would make even scratchy feeling switches smooth and an inferior lube would introduce sluggishness and potentially scratchiness into the switch feel.
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 May 2015, 18:01:57 by nubbinator »

Offline Air tree

  • Better late than never ^-^
  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 2206
  • Location: Satellite Beach, FL
  • Formerly not demik
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 17 May 2015, 20:20:30 »
Very exited to see this write up!

Offline KeypressGraphics

  • Posts: 73
  • Location: Australia
  • Dare to Dream
    • Keypress Graphics
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 17 May 2015, 22:55:59 »
Finally, a lube review that won't be NSFW
May all your key presses strike true.

 
  Choc Mini         HHKB

Offline Air tree

  • Better late than never ^-^
  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 2206
  • Location: Satellite Beach, FL
  • Formerly not demik
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 17 May 2015, 22:57:42 »
Finally, a lube review that won't be NSFW
Wait, you're telling me we won't see some NSFW nubbinator lube action?  :'(

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 17 May 2015, 23:06:20 »
Finally, a lube review that won't be NSFW

I think you have me confused with someone else.

Offline slickmamba

  • Posts: 651
  • Location: SF
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 17 May 2015, 23:15:30 »

One potentially contentious finding relates to springs.  Surprisingly, the 50g Sprit spring appeared to be a decent source of friction in the key press.  When pressing the switches, I noticed some noise and friction that I surmised was from the spring. 

I found the same friction with his 60g golds, now I need to order some spring oil as well
Hi :)

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 17 May 2015, 23:19:23 »

One potentially contentious finding relates to springs.  Surprisingly, the 50g Sprit spring appeared to be a decent source of friction in the key press.  When pressing the switches, I noticed some noise and friction that I surmised was from the spring. 

I found the same friction with his 60g golds, now I need to order some spring oil as well

Good to see that I'm not the only one who noticed that.  I wonder if it's due to the gold plating or if it's something to do with the spring rate.

On the oil.  It did help, but it did not eliminate it.  I'll go into more detail with that when I get to the review.

Offline chyros

  • a.k.a. Thomas
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3478
  • Location: The Netherlands
  • Hello and welcome.
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 02:52:37 »
Cool! Should be very interesting :) .
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 17:13:20 »
hmm. are these all linears? i've been trying to figure out what the best linear lube is for a while now (because honestly i hate linear stems.. :P). care to help me test some formulations?

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 18:09:33 »
hmm. are these all linears? i've been trying to figure out what the best linear lube is for a while now (because honestly i hate linear stems.. :P). care to help me test some formulations?

Sure.  Right now I have GPL-103 and GPL-205 with PTFE as well as RO-59 as the established "killer" lubes.  I'm doing straight 103, straight 205, and a 1:1 mix (though I suspect a 1:2 or 1:4 may be better with less long term separation).  There's two Dow Corning lubes I really wanted to try since they seem appropriate based on specs, but I'd have to drop almost $100 each just to try them out.


If someone wants to send 15-30 Clears or Browns my way so I can do a tactile test as well, I wouldn't complain.


Also, I'm debating do temp tests and sticking them in the fridge or freezer then testing them and warming them up to 100F or so and testing them.

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 18:41:27 »
ro-59 isn't going to do a damned thing without an oven cure (which would exceed safe temperature for the delrin sliders). i still don't understand why people use that stuff. i've been making available a similar product that's used for demolding called trasys that is a fluorinated polymer in a water substrate with a thermoset binder. ptfe doesn't just stick to stuff. like all fluorinated materials, it's extremely low energy, which means it vehemently refuses to stick to things. this is not-so-coincidentally why it's a good solid lubricant.

krytox is three parts:

first, PFPE oil. this is a supremely fascinating fluorinated copolymer that presents as an oil and because it's a very complex copolymer, can be distilled in a large number of different ways to achieve varying material properties. above all though, it's inert, has ungodly vapor pressure and temperature, and is painfully resistant to pretty much every solvent known to man. note that substances that are PFPE alone are marketed as Krytox Oils.

second, PTFE flakes. the size and shape of the average flake is carefully controlled in all krytox grease products to achieve consistency and longevity -- ptfe melts, pfpe does not -- as well as minimizing separation when applied while still being able to spread uniformly, handle high speed, temperature or pressure applications, low speed (high solid) applications, etc. etc.

third, binders. meeting application goals sometimes requires binders. the exact composition of the binders is a trade secret as far as i can tell. to maintain material properties, they're almost certainly some kind of fluorinated polymer, but that's all i know. these are also designed to maximize surface adhesion between all components of the grease.

the combination of binders, ptfe and oil consistency are also carefully controlled to hit 2g/ml density across the product line. as far as i can tell, that's a marketing thing.

anyway, RO-59, as best as i can tell, is a bake-on fluorinated coating. if that's what you're looking for, i have a much better product for that that's also a ton cheaper.

dow corning has their moly line of lubes that are high molybdenum synthetic oils (polyolefin based maybe?). these are for metals. molybdenum is used to even out metal wear.

finally, silicones. silicones are thermosets. they're also extremely inexpensive. thermoset means that they are like viscous solids before curing. this means they can be used as a grease (just don't cure them by accident!). silicones are used all over the place (eg, factory lube in a cherry switch) because they are so inexpensive, and frankly pretty effective for the price. that said, silicones that are solid enough to be used as a lubricant are also very viscous, so silicone greases tend to be heavy. they also have trouble isolating contaminating solids. silicone greases very quickly become grinding paste when exposed to contaminants.


to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 18:44:06 »
don't bother with temp tests. the datasheets will give you the information you need on how the material will be affected. for example, gpl101 will actually vaporize at a relatively low temperature (although still  > 100C iirc).

HMMM, maybe i should run a distilling experiment..

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 18:52:34 »
You ruined part of my findings.  RO-59 does jack **** and doesn't change the feel at all.

On Dow-Corning, from what I can tell, not all Molykote is designed for metal on metal.  Some are designed for plastic on plastic or plastic on metal (or vice versa).  I could be wrong there though.

The specific ones I want to try are G-4500 and G-4501.

Offline wlhlm

  • Posts: 700
  • Location: Germany
  • ~
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 18:54:32 »
anyway, RO-59, as best as i can tell, is a bake-on fluorinated coating. if that's what you're looking for, i have a much better product for that that's also a ton cheaper.
Which lube are you referring to?

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 19:07:55 »
it's not a lube actually. it's designed to coat molds (ie, molds for casting thermosets or for injection molds) to make taking the mold off of the formed part easier. needless to say, some folks making stuff here use it :)

one nice thing about it is that it has a very low bake-temp (it's not PTFE, so it achieves better adhesion because it doesn't need a thermoset binder).

i have about a half gallon left here that's already spoken for for the most part, but i should ship nubs a small tube of it.

G-4500 and G-4501 look like polyolefins. you may remember our old friend polyolefin from ye olde victorinox oil. you can also think of it as synthetic mineral oil (has many similar properties). again, these are lubes for metal on metal contact and designed to even wear and protect against corrosion. notice that the thickener is aluminum based.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline slickmamba

  • Posts: 651
  • Location: SF
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 23:05:02 »
hmm. are these all linears? i've been trying to figure out what the best linear lube is for a while now (because honestly i hate linear stems.. :P). care to help me test some formulations?

Sure.  Right now I have GPL-103 and GPL-205 with PTFE as well as RO-59 as the established "killer" lubes.  I'm doing straight 103, straight 205, and a 1:1 mix (though I suspect a 1:2 or 1:4 may be better with less long term separation).  There's two Dow Corning lubes I really wanted to try since they seem appropriate based on specs, but I'd have to drop almost $100 each just to try them out.


If someone wants to send 15-30 Clears or Browns my way so I can do a tactile test as well, I wouldn't complain.


Also, I'm debating do temp tests and sticking them in the fridge or freezer then testing them and warming them up to 100F or so and testing them.

Out of clears, but I have 30 browns you can use :)
Hi :)

Offline Dihedral

  • Posts: 827
  • Location: United Kingdom
  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 19 May 2015, 01:57:45 »
This is cool! Good job, awesome that slickmamba is sending you some tactiles too.

Offline Evo_Spec

  • (╯°ヮ°)╯︵⌨
  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 1023
  • Location: Japan
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 19 May 2015, 03:46:38 »
Damn it, this is not what I wanted to read about RO-59 since it seems to be the easiest thing to get here Japan..... Guess I'll have to try to import krytox again.....
.                 .  
GON NerD TKL DTA Edition

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 19 May 2015, 09:58:14 »
Oops. Deleted advertisement

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Dihedral

  • Posts: 827
  • Location: United Kingdom
  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 19 May 2015, 10:10:41 »
ro-59 isn't going to do a damned thing without an oven cure (which would exceed safe temperature for the delrin sliders). i still don't understand why people use that stuff. i've been making available a similar product that's used for demolding called trasys that is a fluorinated polymer in a water substrate with a thermoset binder. ptfe doesn't just stick to stuff. like all fluorinated materials, it's extremely low energy, which means it vehemently refuses to stick to things. this is not-so-coincidentally why it's a good solid lubricant.

krytox is three parts:

first, PFPE oil. this is a supremely fascinating fluorinated copolymer that presents as an oil and because it's a very complex copolymer, can be distilled in a large number of different ways to achieve varying material properties. above all though, it's inert, has ungodly vapor pressure and temperature, and is painfully resistant to pretty much every solvent known to man. note that substances that are PFPE alone are marketed as Krytox Oils.

second, PTFE flakes. the size and shape of the average flake is carefully controlled in all krytox grease products to achieve consistency and longevity -- ptfe melts, pfpe does not -- as well as minimizing separation when applied while still being able to spread uniformly, handle high speed, temperature or pressure applications, low speed (high solid) applications, etc. etc.

third, binders. meeting application goals sometimes requires binders. the exact composition of the binders is a trade secret as far as i can tell. to maintain material properties, they're almost certainly some kind of fluorinated polymer, but that's all i know. these are also designed to maximize surface adhesion between all components of the grease.

the combination of binders, ptfe and oil consistency are also carefully controlled to hit 2g/ml density across the product line. as far as i can tell, that's a marketing thing.

anyway, RO-59, as best as i can tell, is a bake-on fluorinated coating. if that's what you're looking for, i have a much better product for that that's also a ton cheaper.

dow corning has their moly line of lubes that are high molybdenum synthetic oils (polyolefin based maybe?). these are for metals. molybdenum is used to even out metal wear.

finally, silicones. silicones are thermosets. they're also extremely inexpensive. thermoset means that they are like viscous solids before curing. this means they can be used as a grease (just don't cure them by accident!). silicones are used all over the place (eg, factory lube in a cherry switch) because they are so inexpensive, and frankly pretty effective for the price. that said, silicones that are solid enough to be used as a lubricant are also very viscous, so silicone greases tend to be heavy. they also have trouble isolating contaminating solids. silicone greases very quickly become grinding paste when exposed to contaminants.

This is fascinating. Is this part of your job or have you just done a lot of research on it?

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: Lube Review Teaser
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 19 May 2015, 10:36:38 »
I get bored very easily

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.