Should I get a Topre instead of a Cherry MX Clear keyboard?

[Nikelu]

I am talking about Novatouch probably for Topre,and whichever board with clears to compare Pok3r,Kul,Filco whatever just having stock clears on it.Topre sounds heavenly compared to Clears so I would prefer to spend the extra buck for it. People said Topre for tactility so why not prefer them over browns/clears. Stock always

[Ludovician]

Some people love Topre and some people find it underwhelming. Generally it takes a little bit of use to appreciate the feeling of it. The Novatouch is a good choice, but it's not a cheap option. With a set of PBT caps and a silencing mod on it I've heard that it's even better than the Realforce, which is an excellent board in its stock configuration.

[Nikelu]

The Novatouch is a good choice, but it's not a cheap option.

I can find it for 165 euros if a special offer comes up.Pok3r with shipping is 135 kul is 170+ etc.I will probably buy some PBT keycaps but I heard thick ones cover the beautiful sound topre makes

[dante]

I would not recommend the Novatouch until:

A) I hear reports of Coolermaster fixing the noisy stabilizers.
B) They come out with a 55g version.

[Nikelu]

I would so buy a 55g novatouch without hesitation

[thefebruaryman]

I have gone through a number of mx keyboards but eventually came to the conclusion that hhkb pro 2 was the only one for me.

[rowdy]

There's a big difference between those two switches.

If you love Topre, certainly get the Novatouch.  If you prefer MX with stiffness and tactility, then get the clears.

Or get both, and experience the best of both worlds!

[the aether]

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend getting a Novatouch from what I've heard, maybe a Type Heaven would work for you? But I haven't actually touched either so don't take my advice too seriously.

Re: the original topic, Topre vs MX Clear, when I originally got into all of this I bought a Realforce 87U 55G uniform for work and a KUL ES-87 with MX clears for home. I figured I'd enjoy typing on both. I ended up returning the MX clear board and getting another Realforce for home since I loved it so much. To me, the more "natural" and smooth feeling of the cup rubber is far more enjoyable than the grittier feel of a clear. I was taking my Realforce home from work every day so that I could use before I got two of them, even though I had MX red and clear boards at home. That said, I do miss the feeling of a tactile MX switch sometimes and will probably pick up a board with MX browns or lubed ergo clears soon. So the real answer is that they are both great, and you won't know before you live with both for a while unfortunately. Obviously some people prefer other switches to Topre switches, so consider attending a meetup or buying from a website like mechanicalkeyboards.com which has a more lenient return policy than, say, elitekeyboards.com. (I'm assuming you're in the US; MK stocks the Type Heaven, but you'll have to go with EK if you want a Realforce or HHKB.)

[strict]

I've scarcely used any of my MX boards since getting my RF87UB 55g and RF87UW 45g. Like others have said, the initial impression might be  underwhelming but Topre switches are truly sublime once you've spent some time with them.

[steve.v]

Buy both. See which one you prefer. Sell one if you must.

[Polymer]

Topre is fantastic but it won't be like a Cherry switch of any sort...Because of that you may be really disappointed with Topre...

It will feel, if anything, like a rubber dome keyboard that you've moved away from..it takes a bit to realize there are distinct differences between the two....

[eth0s]

Getting the Topre, you should be.

Having much enjoyment, of your feeling, you will.

[Sygaldry]

I gave Clears and Ergo-Clears a shot.

Went running back to Topre.

[rowdy]

Getting the Topre, you should be.

Having much enjoyment, of your feeling, you will.

With cup rubber, much oneness, you will enjoy.

[Ludovician]

I've been using my Das Keyboard with browns and PBT caps for the past two weeks. While it's a significant improvement over the stock caps, and it felt alright, I decided to switch back to my RF87UB55 just now.

OH, CUP RUBBER, HOW I MISSED YOU! Not only is it infinitely more comfortable to type on, I am making less errors (Topre 55g is more tactile than MX Brown) and I'm typing faster.

[Macsmasher]

I primarily used MX Browns for years before I bought a Realforce 87U silent variable. Since then I've added an 87U 55g uni and an HHKB Pro 2 and gave my Cherry boards to my kids and friends.

From time to time I'll get on a Filco TKL with Blues that my accountant owns. (He comes to my office to do my accounting.) They're decent switches. As a keyboard geek, it's always nice to work on something different once in awhile. However, I have no desire to purchase one even though I have the funds.

Regarding Topre switch weight, most guys here think the 55g is the Nirvana Topre switch. I do like my 55g...at times. But I'll take my variable any day over the 55g. But I'm a light typist, and I type Colemak. A lot less finger travel, so a lighter switch means less effort for me. If I were still qwerty, I might prefer the 55g. Also, I'm over 50. I've grown to appreciate the lighter switches because I'm older than dirt.

With that said and given you like Clears, you'd probably like the Realforce 55g. My Cherry switch-of-choice is Brown.

You should give Topre a try. If you don't, you'll be tormented by the curiosity anyway. If you don't like the board, you can sell it on GH for almost what you paid for it. For whatever reason, Topre boards hold their value better than Cherry boards.

[Polymer]

Most liking 55g is probably not accurate..but they're a vocal bunch for sure . 

I do agree though, variable is great for typing....crap for gaming but really nice for typing...

I enjoy using my HHKB more...but for ongoing work, etc, I always fail back to variable...it is so much easier on my hands..

[KHAANNN]

mx clear + no o-rings + thick dcs keycaps == topre-like thock - mainly because the keycaps isolate the sound and prevent the sound to go through from the sides, making the bottom out sound like a satisfactory thock

too bad I have an extreme amount invested in DSA keycaps, they are very hard to get right

[ghostjuggernaut]

I think the best advice is to try both.  As everyone has already mentioned, topre is it's own beast.  If you are able to afford it, but a nice topre board.  That way if you don't like it you will have an easier time selling it afterward.  Not to say you wouldn't with a Novatouch, but if you are gonna spend the money, might as well get a premium board. I have a HHKB and a RF87UB-55, and I will be swapping my HHKB to 55g very soon.  The added weight isn't for everyone though, as has bee said.  Keyboards are very personal, and you honestly just need to hop in and see which switch you like most.

[Polymer]

mx clear + no o-rings + thick dcs keycaps == topre-like thock - mainly because the keycaps isolate the sound and prevent the sound to go through from the sides, making the bottom out sound like a satisfactory thock

too bad I have an extreme amount invested in DSA keycaps, they are very hard to get right

Not the same..

[KHAANNN]

mx clear + no o-rings + thick dcs keycaps == topre-like thock - mainly because the keycaps isolate the sound and prevent the sound to go through from the sides, making the bottom out sound like a satisfactory thock

too bad I have an extreme amount invested in DSA keycaps, they are very hard to get right

Not the same..

Obviously not, but on the quest for a neutral/satisfactory audible feedback, thick keycaps + free-bottom-out clears are the leader for me in the cherry mx field

Other than that, to the op, Nikelu: You seem to ask too many this or that questions, yet you don't seem to find any results, and you also seem to seek a one-shot perfect solution that is going to last you for some time, for this reason, a DIY keyboard might be optimal for you, you can tune it to your needs, fix it when things go wrong, even replace the switches if you don't like them and end your quest. Here is a nice/new one: http://ortholinearkeyboards.com/neutrino-top-plate - this is just the top plate, but overall the ortholinear keyboards seem very affordable and flexible/fixable

[spiceBar]

I think the best advice is to try both.  As everyone has already mentioned, topre is it's own beast.  If you are able to afford it, but a nice topre board.  That way if you don't like it you will have an easier time selling it afterward.  Not to say you wouldn't with a Novatouch, but if you are gonna spend the money, might as well get a premium board. I have a HHKB and a RF87UB-55, and I will be swapping my HHKB to 55g very soon.  The added weight isn't for everyone though, as has bee said.  Keyboards are very personal, and you honestly just need to hop in and see which switch you like most.

You seem to imply that the Novatouch is not a premium board, and that the HHKB is.

I hope that by premium you don't just mean "more expensive".

A silent modded Novatouch is definitely a class above the HHKB, even a Type-S (I own both the Novatouch, which I have modded, and the HHKB Type-S). It's a class above in quality, and it's way less expensive.

I understand some people like the HHKB layout, and I'm fine with it (except that I find the layout horrible - maybe it's just me).

A modded Novatouch has both a very classy sound and a superior build. The HHKB has no metal plate, it's just a hollow plastic case, and you can feel it and hear it with every key press.

Now this has its advantages. Clearly, the HHKB has a smaller footprint and is lighter, which is great for mobility.

However I find the HHKB to be an extremely overpriced keyboard that does not provide the build quality that should come with the price. If you really want this layout without arrows, then I guess it's OK, otherwise it's a waste of money.

For a desktop and serious productivity, the modded Novatouch is the premium board of the two. I would agree that the stock keycaps are weak, but at least you can use Cherry MX compatible keycaps on it, so it's easy to find better ones.

Regarding the OP's question, it's really hard to tell.

Personally I love both the Cherry MX keyboards (reds or browns) and the Topre ones. I don't want to choose one over the other. After using a Topre board for a while, it's always a pleasure to re-discover a Cherry MX keyboard.

[Sencha]

I have gone through a number of mx keyboards but eventually came to the conclusion that hhkb pro 2 was the only one for me.

I won't bother with MX tactile switches. Just grab a HHKB and join the fun!

[Nikelu]

mx clear + no o-rings + thick dcs keycaps == topre-like thock - mainly because the keycaps isolate the sound and prevent the sound to go through from the sides, making the bottom out sound like a satisfactory thock

too bad I have an extreme amount invested in DSA keycaps, they are very hard to get right

Not the same..

Obviously not, but on the quest for a neutral/satisfactory audible feedback, thick keycaps + free-bottom-out clears are the leader for me in the cherry mx field

Other than that, to the op, Nikelu: You seem to ask too many this or that questions, yet you don't seem to find any results, and you also seem to seek a one-shot perfect solution that is going to last you for some time, for this reason, a DIY keyboard might be optimal for you, you can tune it to your needs, fix it when things go wrong, even replace the switches if you don't like them and end your quest. Here is a nice/new one: http://ortholinearkeyboards.com/neutrino-top-plate - this is just the top plate, but overall the ortholinear keyboards seem very affordable and flexible/fixable

I want to buy a couple more keyboards,probably one will be a cherry mx black and will lube it later,and a topre one or cherry mx clear.That is why I asked

[Nikelu]

I think the best advice is to try both.  As everyone has already mentioned, topre is it's own beast.  If you are able to afford it, but a nice topre board.  That way if you don't like it you will have an easier time selling it afterward.  Not to say you wouldn't with a Novatouch, but if you are gonna spend the money, might as well get a premium board. I have a HHKB and a RF87UB-55, and I will be swapping my HHKB to 55g very soon.  The added weight isn't for everyone though, as has bee said.  Keyboards are very personal, and you honestly just need to hop in and see which switch you like most.

You seem to imply that the Novatouch is not a premium board, and that the HHKB is.

I hope that by premium you don't just mean "more expensive".

A silent modded Novatouch is definitely a class above the HHKB, even a Type-S (I own both the Novatouch, which I have modded, and the HHKB Type-S). It's a class above in quality, and it's way less expensive.

I understand some people like the HHKB layout, and I'm fine with it (except that I find the layout horrible - maybe it's just me).

A modded Novatouch has both a very classy sound and a superior build. The HHKB has no metal plate, it's just a hollow plastic case, and you can feel it and hear it with every key press.

Now this has its advantages. Clearly, the HHKB has a smaller footprint and is lighter, which is great for mobility.

However I find the HHKB to be an extremely overpriced keyboard that does not provide the build quality that should come with the price. If you really want this layout without arrows, then I guess it's OK, otherwise it's a waste of money.

For a desktop and serious productivity, the modded Novatouch is the premium board of the two. I would agree that the stock keycaps are weak, but at least you can use Cherry MX compatible keycaps on it, so it's easy to find better ones.

Regarding the OP's question, it's really hard to tell.

Personally I love both the Cherry MX keyboards (reds or browns) and the Topre ones. I don't want to choose one over the other. After using a Topre board for a while, it's always a pleasure to re-discover a Cherry MX keyboard.

Should I grab a Novatouch if I find the offer? Also what is your opinion on the switch weight.People say 55g is godlike.

[eth0s]

I think the best advice is to try both.  As everyone has already mentioned, topre is it's own beast.  If you are able to afford it, but a nice topre board.  That way if you don't like it you will have an easier time selling it afterward.  Not to say you wouldn't with a Novatouch, but if you are gonna spend the money, might as well get a premium board. I have a HHKB and a RF87UB-55, and I will be swapping my HHKB to 55g very soon.  The added weight isn't for everyone though, as has bee said.  Keyboards are very personal, and you honestly just need to hop in and see which switch you like most.

You seem to imply that the Novatouch is not a premium board, and that the HHKB is.

I hope that by premium you don't just mean "more expensive".

A silent modded Novatouch is definitely a class above the HHKB, even a Type-S (I own both the Novatouch, which I have modded, and the HHKB Type-S). It's a class above in quality, and it's way less expensive.

I understand some people like the HHKB layout, and I'm fine with it (except that I find the layout horrible - maybe it's just me).

A modded Novatouch has both a very classy sound and a superior build. The HHKB has no metal plate, it's just a hollow plastic case, and you can feel it and hear it with every key press.

Now this has its advantages. Clearly, the HHKB has a smaller footprint and is lighter, which is great for mobility.

However I find the HHKB to be an extremely overpriced keyboard that does not provide the build quality that should come with the price. If you really want this layout without arrows, then I guess it's OK, otherwise it's a waste of money.

For a desktop and serious productivity, the modded Novatouch is the premium board of the two. I would agree that the stock keycaps are weak, but at least you can use Cherry MX compatible keycaps on it, so it's easy to find better ones.

Regarding the OP's question, it's really hard to tell.

Personally I love both the Cherry MX keyboards (reds or browns) and the Topre ones. I don't want to choose one over the other. After using a Topre board for a while, it's always a pleasure to re-discover a Cherry MX keyboard.

I have to say that everything spicebar said above is accurate, except that the HHKB is merely a hollow plastic case.  It's true that HHKB has no metal plate, but it's extremely solid and well-built.  It's built in Japan vs. built in China (like the Novatouche).  So the HHKB is definitely a keyboard of extremely high quality.  Is it better than Nobatouche?  I dunno.  Is it worth the extra money?  I have no idea. 

Now, here are some other thoughts:

1.  45g vs. 55g.  I like 45g better.

2.  Gaming on the HHKB.  It's awesome.  However, I had to remap keys for GTA V.  This is the first time that's happened.  It's a small PITA, but maybe it's a deal-breaker for you, I dunno.  What kind of a game uses the arrow cluster?  I guess the geniuses at Rockstar Games like to keep moving their Right hands off the mouse.  Mouse - Arrows - Mouse - Arrows.  They think that's fun.  But it's not.

[spiceBar]

I think the best advice is to try both.  As everyone has already mentioned, topre is it's own beast.  If you are able to afford it, but a nice topre board.  That way if you don't like it you will have an easier time selling it afterward.  Not to say you wouldn't with a Novatouch, but if you are gonna spend the money, might as well get a premium board. I have a HHKB and a RF87UB-55, and I will be swapping my HHKB to 55g very soon.  The added weight isn't for everyone though, as has bee said.  Keyboards are very personal, and you honestly just need to hop in and see which switch you like most.

You seem to imply that the Novatouch is not a premium board, and that the HHKB is.

I hope that by premium you don't just mean "more expensive".

A silent modded Novatouch is definitely a class above the HHKB, even a Type-S (I own both the Novatouch, which I have modded, and the HHKB Type-S). It's a class above in quality, and it's way less expensive.

I understand some people like the HHKB layout, and I'm fine with it (except that I find the layout horrible - maybe it's just me).

A modded Novatouch has both a very classy sound and a superior build. The HHKB has no metal plate, it's just a hollow plastic case, and you can feel it and hear it with every key press.

Now this has its advantages. Clearly, the HHKB has a smaller footprint and is lighter, which is great for mobility.

However I find the HHKB to be an extremely overpriced keyboard that does not provide the build quality that should come with the price. If you really want this layout without arrows, then I guess it's OK, otherwise it's a waste of money.

For a desktop and serious productivity, the modded Novatouch is the premium board of the two. I would agree that the stock keycaps are weak, but at least you can use Cherry MX compatible keycaps on it, so it's easy to find better ones.

Regarding the OP's question, it's really hard to tell.

Personally I love both the Cherry MX keyboards (reds or browns) and the Topre ones. I don't want to choose one over the other. After using a Topre board for a while, it's always a pleasure to re-discover a Cherry MX keyboard.

I have to say that everything spicebar said above is accurate, except that the HHKB is merely a hollow plastic case.  It's true that HHKB has no metal plate, but it's extremely solid and well-built.  It's built in Japan vs. built in China (like the Novatouche).  So the HHKB is definitely a keyboard of extremely high quality.  Is it better than Nobatouche?  I dunno.  Is it worth the extra money?  I have no idea. 

Now, here are some other thoughts:

1.  45g vs. 55g.  I like 45g better.

2.  Gaming on the HHKB.  It's awesome.  However, I had to remap keys for GTA V.  This is the first time that's happened.  It's a small PITA, but maybe it's a deal-breaker for you, I dunno.  What kind of a game uses the arrow cluster?  I guess the geniuses at Rockstar Games like to keep moving their Right hands off the mouse.  Mouse - Arrows - Mouse - Arrows.  They think that's fun.  But it's not.

I still don't agree on the HHKB build quality.

On mine, the case was squeaking when pressed lightly near the logo. I had to open it and insert adhesive rubber foam in that area to stop the noise.

The space bar was rattling a lot. I also had to fix this myself, and it has not been easy. It's still not perfect.

These defaults have naturally weighted on my opinion about the build quality. A ~$300 keyboard (I have the Type-S version) should not have these problems out of the box.

[ghostjuggernaut]

I think the best advice is to try both.  As everyone has already mentioned, topre is it's own beast.  If you are able to afford it, but a nice topre board.  That way if you don't like it you will have an easier time selling it afterward.  Not to say you wouldn't with a Novatouch, but if you are gonna spend the money, might as well get a premium board. I have a HHKB and a RF87UB-55, and I will be swapping my HHKB to 55g very soon.  The added weight isn't for everyone though, as has bee said.  Keyboards are very personal, and you honestly just need to hop in and see which switch you like most.

You seem to imply that the Novatouch is not a premium board, and that the HHKB is.

I hope that by premium you don't just mean "more expensive".

A silent modded Novatouch is definitely a class above the HHKB, even a Type-S (I own both the Novatouch, which I have modded, and the HHKB Type-S). It's a class above in quality, and it's way less expensive.

I understand some people like the HHKB layout, and I'm fine with it (except that I find the layout horrible - maybe it's just me).

A modded Novatouch has both a very classy sound and a superior build. The HHKB has no metal plate, it's just a hollow plastic case, and you can feel it and hear it with every key press.

Now this has its advantages. Clearly, the HHKB has a smaller footprint and is lighter, which is great for mobility.

However I find the HHKB to be an extremely overpriced keyboard that does not provide the build quality that should come with the price. If you really want this layout without arrows, then I guess it's OK, otherwise it's a waste of money.

For a desktop and serious productivity, the modded Novatouch is the premium board of the two. I would agree that the stock keycaps are weak, but at least you can use Cherry MX compatible keycaps on it, so it's easy to find better ones.

Regarding the OP's question, it's really hard to tell.

Personally I love both the Cherry MX keyboards (reds or browns) and the Topre ones. I don't want to choose one over the other. After using a Topre board for a while, it's always a pleasure to re-discover a Cherry MX keyboard.

I should have explained myself better. I don't think the Novatouch is a bad board. I have read a lot of peoples opinions on it, and it seems to be a really great board after some mods are done to it. I was mainly recommending a Realforce due to it being, IMO, a better out of the box board. Many people have said that the Novatouch has horrible caps stock, and I can vouch for the quality of Realforce caps. Regardless, I think that any Topre board would be a good purchase, simply due to the ability to resale quickly if he doesn't like it.

[Polymer]

I think the HHKB is rock solid but it depends on what you're looking for.

It isn't going to be a big heavy unit, it isn't supposed to be...some people prefer topre with a plate..I think the lack of the plate and how the switch is part of the case gives it a great warm feel that is still very solid...

Layout wise...it will depend on each user....I'd do the FN layer differently but it isn't too bad and easy to use with one hand.  The backspace position rocks as does the ctrl position....but if you use the FN layer a lot, I can see it being a pain...but for those using the arrows here and there (which for most people will be the main use of the FN layer), it works nicely..

Spacebar wise..I don't know what it is but every single Topre I've seen will eventually start to "jiggle" in the spacebar...all it takes (from my experience) is removing it and placing it back on..I'm going to guess the stabilizer on one side isn't completely seated because I'm striking the spacebar slightly off center (which is normal).                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

[spiceBar]

I think the HHKB is rock solid but it depends on what you're looking for.

It isn't going to be a big heavy unit, it isn't supposed to be...some people prefer topre with a plate..I think the lack of the plate and how the switch is part of the case gives it a great warm feel that is still very solid...

Layout wise...it will depend on each user....I'd do the FN layer differently but it isn't too bad and easy to use with one hand.  The backspace position rocks as does the ctrl position....but if you use the FN layer a lot, I can see it being a pain...but for those using the arrows here and there (which for most people will be the main use of the FN layer), it works nicely..

Spacebar wise..I don't know what it is but every single Topre I've seen will eventually start to "jiggle" in the spacebar...all it takes (from my experience) is removing it and placing it back on..I'm going to guess the stabilizer on one side isn't completely seated because I'm striking the spacebar slightly off center (which is normal).                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

My other Topre boards (I have 6 of them, including the HHKB) have not exhibited this problem.

The HHKB came out of the box with a very clicky spacebar. It was not as simple as taking it out and reseating it (I tried that several times). I had to completely disassemble the keyboard and put lots of grease in different locations. It was a very time consuming operation.

I would have disassembled it anyway, because I wanted to have a look at these Type-S sliders.

But for a keyboard this expensive, it should not happen.

You can hear the sound of the space bar before I fixed it in this post:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67654.15

It's the high pitched and loud sound you hear when I am typing. It's also the last key, that I press 3 times, at the end of the recording.

[Sygaldry]

Problem with Topre, I find, is that I can't decide which I like better.

45g on my HHKB or 55g on my RealForce.

Both feel wonderful in their own ways.

[Rotaku]

I've tried a HHKB and a Novatouch and honestly I can't jump on the topre train they honestly just feel like slightly better rubber domes to me. Regular clears feel a bit too mushy but honestly ergo clears are my all time favorite switch. The tactility is just amazing and the weight is perfect

[jerue]

I own both Clears and Topre.

I would recommend the Realforce first, but then Novatouch 45g Uniform in a close 2nd over an MX Clear board. I really like 55g weighting, but in a cinch, Novatouch > any MX Clear board (I speak for Poker 2 and WASD Code).

[appleonama]

It all really depends on what type of typing experience you prefer. I would highly recommend to try them out first.

As a owner of a mx clear board and several topre boards I would much prefer 45g topre over any other switch.

However, my taste in switches is strange. I like the heavy stiff feeling of clears but when it comes to topre I can't stand anything more than 45g.

The novatouch is heavier or has more spring than a 45g hhkb/realforce which feels absolutely horrible to me. Also the novatouch experience is much different to other topre boards there is simply something lacking to it. Typing on a novatouch or 55g topre is very tiring for long typing sessions and it becomes uncomfortable.

As I said I recommend you try them out first.

edit: topre is life so anything else is a mistake )