Author Topic: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets  (Read 5250 times)

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Offline pizza_is_a_lie

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PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« on: Fri, 05 June 2015, 17:49:21 »
Okay - so I've been made aware of PMK now selling full keycap sets from successful GBs of yestermonth/year. But hardly any offer the ISO mods? The only one I can see with them is the '76 set. Is this because they never tipped when they were GBs?

Offline trizkut

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 05 June 2015, 18:19:16 »
Yes.  If they don't tip, they don't make them.  Period.


Offline pizza_is_a_lie

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 07:31:05 »
Though, with their new system, this shouldn't be an issue, right?

Offline trizkut

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 09:34:08 »
Though, with their new system, this shouldn't be an issue, right?

Quote
The new system will allow votes on Child Deals as well as on the Base Set. We would like to see a minimum of 200 votes on the Base Set and 50 votes on each of the Child Deals before considering them for production.


That's how they intend for it to work, but I get the feeling they will find themselves sitting on a lot of unsold iso kits


Offline Nai_Calus

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 06 June 2015, 09:56:20 »
Yeah, the thing with ISO kits is that they generally don't tip. People hue and cry over the lack of them, but then when they're there they either complain it doesn't have their specific regional variant and don't buy it, or that if it includes it, it's too expensive, and don't buy it.

For a non-PMK example, the uproar over the Triumph Adler set's ISO support. It covered an ISO board, but people weren't happy with which keys it had. (A minimum, to avoid making the set too expensive for everyone.) More complaining was done over the lack of, say, Italian or Norwegian keys than happiness that it'd actually cover a board. If it HAD had all the various ISO keys, nobody would have bought it because it would have been hideously expensive. (Look at the Granite regional pack. It's huge. It didn't sell enough at any point to meet GMK MOQ either.)

Basically, ISO is impossible to support feasibly with the demands people make of that support. It's not just the ISO enter and the 1.25u shift key and two extra 1u keys. Since the areas where these sets are located are so relatively small, and custom key sets are a niche corner of a niche hobby...

tl;dr ISO 'standard' isn't very standard and support is a difficult prospect and people only want their own local keys but there aren't enough usually for any one region to actually do this.
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Offline seville57

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 11 June 2015, 10:25:32 »
I have some ISO/Nordic + 1 ISO/English layout k-boards (livin in Sweden) and it is hard to find good lookin ISO/Nordic keycaps sets, have one custom ISO 108 keys from WASD.

Have some ANSI keycaps sets, I can use this sets on mine ISO Ducky Shine 2/3 k-boards, the problem here is the ANSI Enter + left Shift don't fit the ISO k-boards and you don't get this letters Å, Ä and Ö in ANSI keycaps sets.


To solve this problems I bought a ANSI k-board last year, (I have 3 now and number 4 on the way) and now I can the use (not all ANSI keycaps set are good lookin)  great lookin ANSI keycaps sets :thumb:

Offline pizza_is_a_lie

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 11 June 2015, 12:19:33 »
I'd jump ship to ANSI if I didn't use ISO at work on a vast array of machines!

Offline kurocat

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 12 June 2015, 14:46:31 »
As an ISO user, I think the most feasible solution for ISO keysets would be to offer blanks instead of language specific keys. For example, instead of having a Ç key like I have (portuguese layout), a blank would take its place.

Offline iAmAhab

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 16:56:37 »
As an ISO user, I think the most feasible solution for ISO keysets would be to offer blanks instead of language specific keys. For example, instead of having a Ç key like I have (portuguese layout), a blank would take its place.

I personally think this is a horrible solution, blank keys mixed in with printed is not very pleasing to the eye. Much better to just use the legends that US ISO boards use if said set is US ANSI. This way the set is at least consistent. No point in having the correct legends for your layout on the few keys offered in ISO kits when the rest of the set is US ANSI.

Offline katushkin

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 17:21:42 »
As an ISO user, I think the most feasible solution for ISO keysets would be to offer blanks instead of language specific keys. For example, instead of having a Ç key like I have (portuguese layout), a blank would take its place.

Also, that doesn't get around the issue of the ISO enter.
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Offline pizza_is_a_lie

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 15 June 2015, 06:52:51 »
Also, that doesn't get around the issue of the ISO enter.

You mean, doesn't get around the issue of the ANSI enter?  ;D

Offline seville57

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 15 June 2015, 12:52:18 »
This is only a test picture with keycools  terrible ANSI 108 rainbow keycaps set + some of Duckys own ISO/Nordic pink keycaps on my ISO/Nordic Ducky Shine 2 k-board.

http://i.imgur.com/ekTDpj3.jpg

I'm usin the big pink ISO Enter + ISO Left Shift, can't use the ANSI Enter + Left ANSI Shift on a ISO k-board.

Also usin some more pink ISO caps like: Å, Ö and Ä + more.


The k-board looked like this when I bought it from the shop.
http://i.imgur.com/B65S79o.jpg



Edit: On Massdrop http://link.massdrop.com/541e9ff8ba57e6a6248b4a852puen.emz/VXrC5kmOZuPu_I5XB0b0c with english ISO kit (+$19) and International kit (+$17), German, Swedish and Nordic keycaps (made by SP).



« Last Edit: Mon, 15 June 2015, 16:08:04 by seville57 »

Offline pizza_is_a_lie

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 16 June 2015, 11:50:24 »
This is only a test picture with keycools  terrible ANSI 108 rainbow keycaps set + some of Duckys own ISO/Nordic pink keycaps on my ISO/Nordic Ducky Shine 2 k-board.

http://i.imgur.com/ekTDpj3.jpg

I'm usin the big pink ISO Enter + ISO Left Shift, can't use the ANSI Enter + Left ANSI Shift on a ISO k-board.

Also usin some more pink ISO caps like: Å, Ö and Ä + more.


The k-board looked like this when I bought it from the shop.
http://i.imgur.com/B65S79o.jpg



Edit: On Massdrop http://link.massdrop.com/541e9ff8ba57e6a6248b4a852puen.emz/VXrC5kmOZuPu_I5XB0b0c with english ISO kit (+$19) and International kit (+$17), German, Swedish and Nordic keycaps (made by SP).

That's a good idea! I don't particularly like the Jukebox set if I'm honest. I'm tempted to jump on the Round 5A over on DT.

Though, I'm sure there are vendors out there will could make the keys missing from otherwise great ANSI sets.

Offline seville57

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 17 June 2015, 13:58:01 »
This is only a test picture with keycools  terrible ANSI 108 rainbow keycaps set + some of Duckys own ISO/Nordic pink keycaps on my ISO/Nordic Ducky Shine 2 k-board.

http://i.imgur.com/ekTDpj3.jpg

I'm usin the big pink ISO Enter + ISO Left Shift, can't use the ANSI Enter + Left ANSI Shift on a ISO k-board.

Also usin some more pink ISO caps like: Å, Ö and Ä + more.


The k-board looked like this when I bought it from the shop.
http://i.imgur.com/B65S79o.jpg



Edit: On Massdrop http://link.massdrop.com/541e9ff8ba57e6a6248b4a852puen.emz/VXrC5kmOZuPu_I5XB0b0c with english ISO kit (+$19) and International kit (+$17), German, Swedish and Nordic keycaps (made by SP).

That's a good idea! I don't particularly like the Jukebox set if I'm honest. I'm tempted to jump on the Round 5A over on DT.

Though, I'm sure there are vendors out there will could make the keys missing from otherwise great ANSI sets.

The this was the problem when I have the LEDs on, but it was only a test.
http://i.imgur.com/4oIoCyu.jpg
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 June 2015, 14:01:24 by seville57 »

Offline pizza_is_a_lie

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 17 June 2015, 14:17:23 »
Hey, it's not that bad  :thumb:

Offline Data

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 19 June 2015, 13:39:29 »
Yeah, the thing with ISO kits is that they generally don't tip. People hue and cry over the lack of them, but then when they're there they either complain it doesn't have their specific regional variant and don't buy it, or that if it includes it, it's too expensive, and don't buy it.

For a non-PMK example, the uproar over the Triumph Adler set's ISO support. It covered an ISO board, but people weren't happy with which keys it had. (A minimum, to avoid making the set too expensive for everyone.) More complaining was done over the lack of, say, Italian or Norwegian keys than happiness that it'd actually cover a board. If it HAD had all the various ISO keys, nobody would have bought it because it would have been hideously expensive. (Look at the Granite regional pack. It's huge. It didn't sell enough at any point to meet GMK MOQ either.)

Basically, ISO is impossible to support feasibly with the demands people make of that support. It's not just the ISO enter and the 1.25u shift key and two extra 1u keys. Since the areas where these sets are located are so relatively small, and custom key sets are a niche corner of a niche hobby...

tl;dr ISO 'standard' isn't very standard and support is a difficult prospect and people only want their own local keys but there aren't enough usually for any one region to actually do this.

This has been my observation as well.

Offline pizza_is_a_lie

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 07:25:05 »
Yeah, that's understandable. Niche audience within a niche market will always be tough, I get it. Just wish there were other means of the manufacturers being able to find a cost-effective means of providing them!

Offline davkol

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 10:21:36 »
tl;dr ISO 'standard' isn't very standard and support is a difficult prospect and people only want their own local keys but there aren't enough usually for any one region to actually do this.
ISO/IEC 9995 is absolutely a standard (although not enforced or anything). It leaves out symbol arrangement to national standards. The point of ISO is specification of a framework for them.

I don't see why GBs can't include an ISO/JIS Enter and left Shift plus an extra key with some universal "international" legend.

People *****ing about lack of national symbol arrangements is an entirely different story (some national layouts are ANSI too).
« Last Edit: Sat, 20 June 2015, 10:25:11 by davkol »

Offline seville57

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 13:04:22 »
tl;dr ISO 'standard' isn't very standard and support is a difficult prospect and people only want their own local keys but there aren't enough usually for any one region to actually do this.
ISO/IEC 9995 is absolutely a standard (although not enforced or anything). It leaves out symbol arrangement to national standards. The point of ISO is specification of a framework for them.

I don't see why GBs can't include an ISO/JIS Enter and left Shift plus an extra key with some universal "international" legend.

People *****ing about lack of national symbol arrangements is an entirely different story (some national layouts are ANSI too).

On my ISO Nordic k-boards I can use the English ISO layout keycaps sets but I been missin this 3 letters: Å, Ä and Ö.

Here is a picture of my English Ducky Shine 3: http://i.imgur.com/YAWcIAv.jpg
« Last Edit: Sat, 20 June 2015, 13:23:49 by seville57 »

Offline davkol

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 13:10:06 »
Yeah. And it has very little to do with ISO. If the Nordic keyboard standards were based on ANSI (or JIS or the Asian layout with big-ass Enter), you'd still have the same issue.

Offline seville57

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 13:16:10 »
Yeah. And it has very little to do with ISO. If the Nordic keyboard standards were based on ANSI (or JIS or the Asian layout with big-ass Enter), you'd still have the same issue.

And here is picture of my ISO Nordic Ducky Shine 3: http://i.imgur.com/INH8RBN.jpg

Offline pizza_is_a_lie

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 13:47:20 »
While I'm feeling very opinionated on the matter this evening, I'll just say it.

What's the harm in a company offering a cap set that includes a dozen or so keys to cover ALL the bases of the basic ISO and nordic keys, seriously?

Us ISO users understand there must be a premium in being the second-choice market for retailers of key caps. Why not just offer the dozen keys for 25 bucks and call it a day? UK/Nordic ISO combination is both cost effective and effective when it comes to resale (if the buyer wants to resell, there's a larger audience).

Offline davkol

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 15:20:23 »
Let's count.

ISO. That's four extra physical keys, two of them somewhat unusual (=not elsewhere on the keyboard), one definitely requires a special mold (Enter).

Base alphas. Two common QWERTY variants: AZERTY and QWERTZ, thus QAZWYM have to be made for two different rows, if the set is sculpted. One punctuation key is different row too, and this is where it gets tricky, because punctuation is paired differently on AZERTY. Anyway, we're at one half of a Colemak conversion kit. That isn't bad.

National alphabet extensions, punctuation. The Armageddon. The GB creator has to take care of accented letters (typography). That's half a dozen keys just for German and Nordic layouts. At least two mostly different number rows for German and UK layouts. I'm completely ignoring French, layouts of BENELUX, Italian Swiss, various Slavic layouts/languages,…
« Last Edit: Sat, 20 June 2015, 15:22:16 by davkol »

Offline pizza_is_a_lie

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 22 June 2015, 01:33:57 »
Even if I have to pay $27 like the 1967 kit and have absolutely every ISO combination on the planet, I'd do it. At least it would “top” and has resale value in the sense that it would interest a lot of Europeans.

Offline davkol

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Re: PMK and their lack of ISO cap sets
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 22 June 2015, 03:35:19 »
What is this "every ISO combination on the planet"?