Mechanical Options with Native Dvorak Caps

[droshi]

Hi All,

I'm looking for my first mechanical. I've been typing on Dvorak a long time, and don't really need the key caps, but I feel if I'm going to be spending the money on a nice keyboard, it's worth getting the layout correct. Occasionally for programming it's nice to see where some of the symbols really are. When typing of course I never look since I've been using a qwerty keyboard for a while. When learning, I did re-arrange a keyboard, but because of the different shape of keys, it wasn't perfect (F and J pip markers obviously don't move either).

Wish List:

• I would really like to get MX clear switches if possible, though I work at home, too much noise could be a problem at times. So the clears seem the best fit between blue and brown for good feedback as well as low noise.
• LED backlit isn't a must, but I do feel that if I'm getting a new expensive keyboard, it should have this, unless price is appropriate without it
• Caps that don't wear out, heard this is a problem with some of printing on keys, or backlighted caps
• I don't mind buying a custom set of caps, my overall budget is below $200, so I don't want to go too crazy, but I'd like this to be the last keyboard I need to buy for a long time.
• I don't think I need better caps than ABS, but if it's the only way to get a Dvorak layout, and it improves feel, I'm all for it. As long as it fits in the budget

My main options look like:

• Typematrix - not really mechanical, but I've heard it's decent feedback. Really nice thing here isn't just the Dvorak layout, but the Fn+copy/paste/cut keys...someone was thinking! By far the worst part of Dvorak is ctrl+x,c,v are all moved around. Downsides other than no mechanical keys is no backlight and extraneous other keys...play, app, shuffle, desktop? Odd...
• WASD custom - looks great, lack of LED, and a bit higher cost make it a little annoying. But obviously any layout and color scheme are nice.
• Ducky Shine 4 - can these be rearranged? I do see FJ pips, so I guess not.
• CODE - this one looks good, again rearrangement? Also the caps look like they wear out fast
• CM Storm? - again, not sure if they can be rearranged. Also, I can't find any that come in MX clears, is that right?

I haven't been researching this for long, so I'm sure there's a lot of other options out there, hoping you guys can shed some light on these choices or suggest others. As for as 60% vs 100%, I've no idea there.  I hardly use the number pad, so I'd probably go without that if possible, but not sure if I'd like the arrow keys or home/end to be moved to Fn keys or not.

[Melvang]

If you don't mind buying aftermarket caps, take a serious look at either DSA or row 3 SA.  Those will work with any layout you want because they are a flat profile.  Outside of that buckling springs boards such as IBM F and M all use uniform profile caps so you can move caps around as well. 

As far as sculpted profiles that offer Dvorak, those options are very limited.

[droshi]

If you don't mind buying aftermarket caps, take a serious look at either DSA or row 3 SA.  Those will work with any layout you want because they are a flat profile.  Outside of that buckling springs boards such as IBM F and M all use uniform profile caps so you can move caps around as well. 

As far as sculpted profiles that offer Dvorak, those options are very limited.

Thanks for the recommendation. DSA or Row 3 SA caps work on any Cherry MX keyboard? Or what keyboard should I be looking at in combination?

Just trying to search for them, something like this looks good to me:
http://pimpmykeyboard.com/dsa-quartz-keycap-set/

And I don't see the markers on F and J, so overall looks flexible enough to change to any layout relatively.

In this case, I guess I was thinking about this option:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/mechanical-keyboard/wasd-v2-87-key-barebones-mechanical-keyboard.html

Will it work?

I guess the only thing it's lacking is just back-lit. But the big benefit seems to be PBT caps that work on Dvorak, as well as not paying for ABS caps and having to rip them off.

Will need to do a bit more research on custom caps since that looks likely the route to go. PBT vs Double-shot ABS looks like the main choice there other than style/colors.

[Melvang]

That should work.  If I remember right that keyboard has a standard bottom row layout.  Homing on dsa caps is a deeper dish, commonly referred to as scoops.  If you want Dvorak scoops you would need the alternate homing keys kit as well.

[SL89]

The budget kind of negates the only real option:

WASD Barebones + Round 5 DVORAK kit and whatever other options you might want.

Also the WASD / Code keycaps do shine very quickly, and then begin to wear.

[Dernubenfrieken]

Its possible to get sculpted sets with dvorak, but it will most like break your budget. A lot of SP group buys now include that option, such as troubled minds which is currently running. But as others have said, a flat DSA or SA set will be much easier.

[droshi]

The budget kind of negates the only real option:

WASD Barebones + Round 5 DVORAK kit and whatever other options you might want.

Also the WASD / Code keycaps do shine very quickly, and then begin to wear.

I don't fully understand, are you saying the $200 budget means this is my only option? Or that this only option is one I can't afford because of the budget?

Looking at Round 5 kits, there's so many options it's mind boggling pimpmykeyboard site is probably more on the level of what I can decide on.

One other option looks like spending a bit more on a Truly Ergonomic board. I hadn't considered this earlier as obviously was outside my budget, and I'm not certain on the benefits of the ergonomic design.

Overall, lets say the $200 budget is a soft budget, I could spend a bit more if there's a lot of value there, but I won't spend double just to get a nice-to-have feature.

Something like this looks nice, and though I didn't really want to wait, if it was able to provide Dvorak caps I probably would have backed:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/ugl/ultimate-hacking-keyboard

Its possible to get sculpted sets with dvorak, but it will most like break your budget. A lot of SP group buys now include that option, such as troubled minds which is currently running. But as others have said, a flat DSA or SA set will be much easier.

Yeah, I'm not certain about the group buys, the real problem is that it's hard for me to visualize what it will be because of the number of options. I don't already have anything other than crappy keyboards to compare with, so I'm not 100% certain on what I want.

Alternatively I've been thinking going much cheaper with a QWERTY board and just seeing how I like mechanical. But initially I was feeling that there wasn't a point to spend that much, which I should be getting the layout I actually use. I could go with blank caps, but honestly there's occasions where it will slow me down with obscure symbols or punctuation.

[droshi]

Just to add another option to my list, it looks like the ErgoDox EZ is DSA keycaps for printed keys, sculpted are the blank keys

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ergodox-ez-an-incredible-mechanical-keyboard#/

[Dernubenfrieken]

The budget kind of negates the only real option:

WASD Barebones + Round 5 DVORAK kit and whatever other options you might want.

Also the WASD / Code keycaps do shine very quickly, and then begin to wear.

I don't fully understand, are you saying the $200 budget means this is my only option? Or that this only option is one I can't afford because of the budget?

Looking at Round 5 kits, there's so many options it's mind boggling pimpmykeyboard site is probably more on the level of what I can decide on.

One other option looks like spending a bit more on a Truly Ergonomic board. I hadn't considered this earlier as obviously was outside my budget, and I'm not certain on the benefits of the ergonomic design.

Overall, lets say the $200 budget is a soft budget, I could spend a bit more if there's a lot of value there, but I won't spend double just to get a nice-to-have feature.

Something like this looks nice, and though I didn't really want to wait, if it was able to provide Dvorak caps I probably would have backed:
https://www.crowdsupply.com/ugl/ultimate-hacking-keyboard

Its possible to get sculpted sets with dvorak, but it will most like break your budget. A lot of SP group buys now include that option, such as troubled minds which is currently running. But as others have said, a flat DSA or SA set will be much easier.

Yeah, I'm not certain about the group buys, the real problem is that it's hard for me to visualize what it will be because of the number of options. I don't already have anything other than crappy keyboards to compare with, so I'm not 100% certain on what I want.

Alternatively I've been thinking going much cheaper with a QWERTY board and just seeing how I like mechanical. But initially I was feeling that there wasn't a point to spend that much, which I should be getting the layout I actually use. I could go with blank caps, but honestly there's occasions where it will slow me down with obscure symbols or punctuation.

Basically most keycap sets with a dvorak option will set you back ~110 dollars and most keyboards are gonna put you over that, especially fullsized. Go to massdrop and check out troubled minds, theres a dvorak option for it and is going on right now, youll see what im talk about.

[droshi]

Basically most keycap sets with a dvorak option will set you back ~110 dollars and most keyboards are gonna put you over that, especially fullsized. Go to massdrop and check out troubled minds, theres a dvorak option for it and is going on right now, youll see what im talk about.

Thanks, much appreciated. I signed up on massdrop and can now see the options over there. I don't care for the troubled minds color scheme, but I see what you mean. It looks like you buy the QWERTY sculpted set, then the DVORAK add-on. I don't care much for the idea of throwing away $30 worth of caps, so I'll probably just go with DSA caps.

The POK3R looks like a nice 60% board too, but again, concern being the caps since they look necessary to access the Fn menu options.

It seems kind of strange that enthusiast boards have DIP switches to switch from QWERTY to DVORAK to COLEMAK, but leave out the printed keys? Or don't come with DSA caps?

WASD board still looks like my only real option, I may end up with that, no matter which caps I end up with.

[olijuice]

Basically most keycap sets with a dvorak option will set you back ~110 dollars and most keyboards are gonna put you over that, especially fullsized. Go to massdrop and check out troubled minds, theres a dvorak option for it and is going on right now, youll see what im talk about.

Thanks, much appreciated. I signed up on massdrop and can now see the options over there. I don't care for the troubled minds color scheme, but I see what you mean. It looks like you buy the QWERTY sculpted set, then the DVORAK add-on. I don't care much for the idea of throwing away $30 worth of caps, so I'll probably just go with DSA caps.

The POK3R looks like a nice 60% board too, but again, concern being the caps since they look necessary to access the Fn menu options.

It seems kind of strange that enthusiast boards have DIP switches to switch from QWERTY to DVORAK to COLEMAK, but leave out the printed keys? Or don't come with DSA caps?

WASD board still looks like my only real option, I may end up with that, no matter which caps I end up with.

I think that some of the companies don't offer that option to keep the cost down. The Pok3r is currently $104.99 but adding a few extra caps would probably increase their production cost, or would increase the cost to us which may cause some lost sales. OEM is a standard key profile that many manufacturers like to use as well. In regards to DSA, there are some people that don't like the feel of that profile at all. Unfortunately the cheaper OEM keysets from Vortex or Tai-Hao don't come with a lot of options like Dvorak/Colemak layouts, ISO, international etc. probably to keep the prices down too.

You can always keep an eye out on Massdrop or Group Buy threads in here until you find a key set that you like, and has the Dvorak layout.

Personally I like to keep the Qwerty layout just because I'm so used to the way it looks that having the Colemak layout that I use primarily would just make it look too weird for me.. LOL, but that's just me. Plus at work I sometimes have to RDP into another computer that doesn't have the software setting installed to change the layout so I have to revert to hunt and peck for the brief moments that I am connected to another computer.

[droshi]

I think that some of the companies don't offer that option to keep the cost down. The Pok3r is currently $104.99 but adding a few extra caps would probably increase their production cost, or would increase the cost to us which may cause some lost sales. OEM is a standard key profile that many manufacturers like to use as well. In regards to DSA, there are some people that don't like the feel of that profile at all. Unfortunately the cheaper OEM keysets from Vortex or Tai-Hao don't come with a lot of options like Dvorak/Colemak layouts, ISO, international etc. probably to keep the prices down too.

You can always keep an eye out on Massdrop or Group Buy threads in here until you find a key set that you like, and has the Dvorak layout.

Personally I like to keep the Qwerty layout just because I'm so used to the way it looks that having the Colemak layout that I use primarily would just make it look too weird for me.. LOL, but that's just me. Plus at work I sometimes have to RDP into another computer that doesn't have the software setting installed to change the layout so I have to revert to hunt and peck for the brief moments that I am connected to another computer.

Yeah, definitely see the cost factor, the thing is, before looking for a "good" keyboard, on Amazon regular keyboards are extremely cheap. So while cost is a factor, once people start spending more, I don't feel I'm unreasonable to ask for more. If each keyboard said +$15-25 for Dvorak, I probably would have bought something a while ago. I'm honestly just surprised that only WASD keyboards does it (and goes way beyond in my opinion with full customizing, any layout, any color, anything you want printed on the keys in fact).

I have used a qwerty for a while, so I'm also used to it. The RDP thing sometimes happens (though the frequent servers I use I switch to Dvorak), but in some ways, I thought that was the whole point of hardware Dvorak or Colemak? You type, keyboard translates it to Qwerty, so you don't have to worry about it across changing computers or RDP. Maybe that's not the board you have, but just wanted to see if that was true of those types.

[davkol]

I thought that was the whole point of hardware Dvorak or Colemak? You type, keyboard translates it to Qwerty, so you don't have to worry about it across changing computers or RDP. Maybe that's not the board you have, but just wanted to see if that was true of those types.

Wait, what? The keyboard doesn't translate anything… or, actually, it does. It translates signals from switches into codes (by default in ascending order from left top corner to the right bottom corner, with some swaps here and there, but not in the inner part with letters/numbers), and the codes are sent to the host computer. It's the host, that assigns meaning to those codes; generally the OS translates these codes (2-13; 16-27; 30-40; 44-53) to respective rows of the US QWERTY "logical" layout.

The "hardware" DSK layout only rearranges these codes, so that typing on the keyboard outputs results corresponding to DSK, provided the OS is set to US QWERTY. If the OS was set to DSK or , say, French AZERTY, the result of typing on a "DSK keyboard" would be complete nonsense.

[Oobly]

Basically most keycap sets with a dvorak option will set you back ~110 dollars and most keyboards are gonna put you over that, especially fullsized. Go to massdrop and check out troubled minds, theres a dvorak option for it and is going on right now, youll see what im talk about.

Thanks, much appreciated. I signed up on massdrop and can now see the options over there. I don't care for the troubled minds color scheme, but I see what you mean. It looks like you buy the QWERTY sculpted set, then the DVORAK add-on. I don't care much for the idea of throwing away $30 worth of caps, so I'll probably just go with DSA caps.

The POK3R looks like a nice 60% board too, but again, concern being the caps since they look necessary to access the Fn menu options.

It seems kind of strange that enthusiast boards have DIP switches to switch from QWERTY to DVORAK to COLEMAK, but leave out the printed keys? Or don't come with DSA caps?

WASD board still looks like my only real option, I may end up with that, no matter which caps I end up with.

There are three reasons a board can have hardware Dvorak or Colemak support, but not supply the caps.

1. Many Dvorak & Colemake typers are touch typers and don't need to see the characters printed on the board.
2. Many keyboard enthusiasts swap out the stock keycaps for better ones anyway.
3. Gives options without costing more, as it would if you had to also supply extra caps (and forcing EVERYONE to pay for the extra caps they won't use).

Manufacturers supply boards with OEM caps because it's the cheapest option and giving DSA caps with the board would raise the price to the point that they'd lose sales. Not to mention all the people who want to put their own caps on and would definitely not like to use DSA caps.

TLDR: Business reasons

[RabRhee]

It seems kind of strange that enthusiast boards have DIP switches to switch from QWERTY to DVORAK to COLEMAK, but leave out the printed keys? Or don't come with DSA caps?

I can see some reasons for having hardware Dvorak options.
1. You are using a shared PC regularly, want to plug your own keyboard in and work immediately without messing with the OS settings.
2. You are using old / weird hardware that doesn't have a Dvorak keyboard layout option.
3. You are doing stuff pre-OS bootup and can't remember where Qwerty is.

Other than that, I can't really see real benefits of owning a keyboard with hardware swapping. Just one more thing to go wrong.

Plus one downside. For games that have Dvorak support the hardware option may be worse, as they won't realise you want to use ,AOE for arrow keys. Although most Dvorak players get used to manually adjusting the inputs anyway I guess.

I used a WASD Dvorak set for a little while, but they felt very basic to me, worse than generic OEM caps (I went to blanks rather than use them). Then I used DSA Dolch for a year, which was a strong upgrade. But now I have swapped to SA Retro with Dvorak kit and for me there is no comparison. A nice quality sculpted Dvorak layout is pretty great, I wouldn't want to be without it now. Tracking down a sculpted set you like may take a while though, as not all end up made. Troubled Minds, for example, looks like they won't tip their D/C set.

Good luck with it. Whatever happens you are likely to spend more when that perfect dvorak keyset shows up for you

[droshi]

Yeah, blank caps are becoming more appealing. I don't really need the legends, but the "wrong" QWERTY caps certainly annoy me sometimes.

The only wrench is now that I've been trying AutoHotkey lately, it seems to be exactly what I've been looking for. Makes copy+paste much more friendly on Dvorak. This is just to say that it's a bit handy to have the Qwerty legends while I've been trying it out.

I'll probably just try to make a decision on the keyboard, and not worry about the caps for now. Later I'll switch them out for a custom set when I can find a good deal on massdrop.

Now I just need to figure out which board, I'm fairly sure I'll go with MX clears, so I guess that narrows it down some. Are there any boards to be wary of if I plan to swap caps later on? For example I've heard the CM Storm boards have non-standard key sizes for modifiers.

Thanks for all the info.