So I'm interested in getting an Alps keyboard

[TouchTypist]

I recently purshased a Dell AT101W, and I like just about everything about it except I'm not a big fan of one aspect, the loudness of the keys.  I actually think I type the most accurately on this keyboard of any that I have tried so far, and after using it for a few days have grown to like the way the switches activate. It was a bit of a put off initially, but it's just different from MX switches that I'm used to so I needed some time to grow accustomed to them.

My question is this (open ended I know and without a definite answer): What keyboard(s) would you recommend? I have been looking at getting an AEK II, but I'm open to other options. Of course I've taken a look at Matias boards, and I might still see about getting one of their offerings, but in general I prefer vintage boards.

So, what've you got for me? If not a specific board, is there a particular Alps switch that I should look for? Is the damped cream switch overrated, or actually the bee knees?

Thanks in advance!

Postscript - If it helps with suggestions, I have currently or have had previously a vintage blue Cherry MX keyboard, a red MX Leopold, a G84-4100, the Dell already mentioned, and an RK rc930-87. I would probably rank them as follows: RK, Dell, G84-4100, vintage blue, mx red Leopold. I find I don't really enjoy linear switches as much as other types.

[Altis]

The switches in the RK (Topre-clones) and black SKCM have a fairly long hump for their tactility throughout the travel. You might like a Topre board like the Realforce 87U with its nice PBT keycaps.

Else you might like something with Monterey Blue Alps since they are pretty smooth and tactile without being too heavy.

Do you like clicky, tactile keys?

[CPTBadAss]

Swap in Matias Quiets into that Dell AT101W! Get great feeling switches and get to keep a nice vintage board.

[chyros]

Alps switches are great, and they only get better after the AT101W, too - however, one thing they're not is quiet xD . Except for the Cream ones, which are very efficiently silenced, and feel nice and soft on the bottoming out too. CptBadass' option of a Matias mod is great if you know your way around a soldering iron. Alternatively an AEKII could be even better, but you'll need an expensive converter probably.

Another option; old-logo AT101 with SKCM Black/Early. They feel better than the late Blacks in the AT101W and sound better and slightly quieter, too. Of all the keyboards I own, that's the one I type on fastest, as it happens.

Relevant; my reviews on the AEKII and old-logo Dell. I'd put down the links myself but I'm on a mobile phone as I'm away from home atm. I think my sig has the playlist with the videos in it.

[TouchTypist]

Do you like clicky, tactile keys?

I thought I did, but the more I think about at and the more keyboards I try I think that the 'click' would need to be fairly quiet to be acceptable. I'm sort of looking for a keyboard for work; I don't type a whole lot so it's not like I'd be driving my coworkers mad all day, but I'm sure they would appreciate a more subtle switch than these Alps blacks

Swap in Matias Quiets into that Dell AT101W! Get great feeling switches and get to keep a nice vintage board.

That's an interesting idea. Matias has the switches available, but I'm not sure I need 200 of them. The only other place I've come across that sells just the switches is mechanicalkeyboards.com (who is out of stock currently).  So, something to consider, but that might have to wait a while.

Alps switches are great, and they only get better after the AT101W, too - however, one thing they're not is quiet xD . Except for the Cream ones, which are very efficiently silenced, and feel nice and soft on the bottoming out too. CptBadass' option of a Matias mod is great if you know your way around a soldering iron. Alternatively an AEKII could be even better, but you'll need an expensive converter probably.

Another option; old-logo AT101 with SKCM Black/Early. They feel better than the late Blacks in the AT101W and sound better and slightly quieter, too. Of all the keyboards I own, that's the one I type on fastest, as it happens.

Relevant; my reviews on the AEKII and old-logo Dell. I'd put down the links myself but I'm on a mobile phone as I'm away from home atm. I think my sig has the playlist with the videos in it.

I watched a few of the videos you linked - great reviews. I still have a few to watch so I'll have to get back to you on whether or not you swayed my decision    The converters I've seen were something like $30, which doesn't seem too bad to me, considering the price of some keyboards. But then, I've been known to spend a few extra bucks as I see fit so maybe that factors into my assessment of cost.

[trustinkiss]

I know you said you preferred a vintage board, but I just received my KBP v60 in Matias Clicks and they're quickly becoming my favorite switch ever. They're really the clicky switch I've expected MX Blues / Greens would be like. The click is something really quite satisfying compared to the measly click that comes out of a MX Blue / Green. The only thing is that they're LOUD AF but the Quiet Click should be the same exact thing but without a click, same tactility, and much quieter. They've also come out with a TKL option, the KBP v80. If you're thinking about the v60 though, my only grief with it is that, since its so small and so light, it almost feels like a toy board. Despite that, it's still my first 60% layout and I'm loving it. The case could probably be changed out too to add some weight and sturdiness.

Or if you're thinking about a fun project to work on in a 60% layout with programmability, I think the GB for the ALPS PCB and Plate might start soon, but might have to check on that first.

And if you're looking for an AEKII, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70528.0 should still have his available. Also, don't forget to support the ALPS ABS keyset currently on Massdrop! It's a small step towards more ALPS love hehe

[TouchTypist]

Or if you're thinking about a fun project to work on in a 60% layout with programmability, I think the GB for the ALPS PCB and Plate might start soon, but might have to check on that first.

And if you're looking for an AEKII, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70528.0 should still have his available. Also, don't forget to support the ALPS ABS keyset currently on Massdrop! It's a small step towards more ALPS love hehe

That possibly upcoming groupbuy sounds intriguing trust, do you have a link for where I can see more info about it?

Also, I did see the keyset drop. I'm trying to decide which color to get, but I'm going to buy a set for sure. Thanks for highlighting it though 

[trustinkiss]

Or if you're thinking about a fun project to work on in a 60% layout with programmability, I think the GB for the ALPS PCB and Plate might start soon, but might have to check on that first.

And if you're looking for an AEKII, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70528.0 should still have his available. Also, don't forget to support the ALPS ABS keyset currently on Massdrop! It's a small step towards more ALPS love hehe

That possibly upcoming groupbuy sounds intriguing trust, do you have a link for where I can see more info about it?

Also, I did see the keyset drop. I'm trying to decide which color to get, but I'm going to buy a set for sure. Thanks for highlighting it though 

I actually don't really know if they're gonna start soon at all actually haha but I think hasu just sold all the leftover PCBs from the latest GB so a new one is bound to start again. As for the plates, it's an Apple Extended Keyboard style in a 60% plate, and I haven't heard any news about that one at all, but if the PCB starts up again, the plates should probably too is what I'm guessing.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69740.450
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71416.100

[chyros]

the Quiet Click should be the same exact thing but without a click, same tactility

No, the tactile leaf from Alps designs doesn't impart the same measure of tactility as the click leaf does. Clicky Alps are more tactile than tactile ones (and the same goes for Matias).

[trustinkiss]

the Quiet Click should be the same exact thing but without a click, same tactility

No, the tactile leaf from Alps designs doesn't impart the same measure of tactility as the click leaf does. Clicky Alps are more tactile than tactile ones (and the same goes for Matias).

Oh woops sorry I just based that off what I read from reviews about both switches

[CPTBadAss]

the Quiet Click should be the same exact thing but without a click, same tactility

No, the tactile leaf from Alps designs doesn't impart the same measure of tactility as the click leaf does. Clicky Alps are more tactile than tactile ones (and the same goes for Matias).

Definitely agree with chyros

[TouchTypist]

I watched a bunch of the reviews that you put up Chyros. I like the cut of your jib, very well done reviews. At this point I'm sort of leaning towards buying a load of switches and swapping out the original ones on my AT101W. Beyond that it's hard to decide if I should paint the case, because I'm also thinking of getting a set or two of the alps keycaps that are on Massdrop now. Decisions decisions. I suppose I ought to do the swap first (assuming I go that route) and then make sure the board works before putting in the effort to paint the case.

As for tactility, I'm fairly confident that the matias qc switches will have enough for me. So far I haven't tried any keys that I felt were underwhelming in that regard - that is, the ones that are supposed to be tactile at all.

...now that I think about it though, that focus FK-2001 does look pretty tempting...

There are too many choices out there 

[chyros]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed them .

The 2001 is a really nice-looking board and Alps Whites are great, but they are very loud; louder than the black Alps you're trying to get away from. Moreover, the 2001 can come with a variety of different switches including several different types of clone, some of which I wouldn't recommend.

Also one small warning; the AT101W has one annoying little trait, the switch pins are pent forwards on the PCB making them harder to desolder. Not impossible by any means, but it's definitely more annoying.

Quiet Clicks or Cream Alps should be tactile enough for sure, but clickies are slightly more so.

[Yoe]

I'd get an AEKII. The cream or white dampened Alps in those are way nicer than quiet click Matias switches.  Also the caps and case are less resonant than on the AT101. A converter for ADB to USB can be built very cheap with a Pro Micro clone ($4 shipped from China) and Hasu's TMK.

[TouchTypist]

I'd get an AEKII. The cream or white dampened Alps in those are way nicer than quiet click Matias switches.  Also the caps and case are less resonant than on the AT101. A converter for ADB to USB can be built very cheap with a Pro Micro clone ($4 shipped from China) and Hasu's TMK.

That's the first time I've heard of a Pro Micro clone, usually talk of using a board for that purpose mentions a Teensy. Is this the thing you are talking about?  : 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leonardo-Pro-Micro-ATmega32U4-FOR-Arduino-IDE-1-0-3-Bootloader-replace-Pro-Mini-/201393591042?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee3fe5302

[CPTBadAss]

Get a Northgate Omnitouch keyboard! They're such great quality. I love the metal case. Pretty sure I'd swap in Blue Alps or Matias Quiets.

[Yoe]

I'd get an AEKII. The cream or white dampened Alps in those are way nicer than quiet click Matias switches.  Also the caps and case are less resonant than on the AT101. A converter for ADB to USB can be built very cheap with a Pro Micro clone ($4 shipped from China) and Hasu's TMK.

That's the first time I've heard of a Pro Micro clone, usually talk of using a board for that purpose mentions a Teensy. Is this the thing you are talking about?  : 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leonardo-Pro-Micro-ATmega32U4-FOR-Arduino-IDE-1-0-3-Bootloader-replace-Pro-Mini-/201393591042?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee3fe5302

That would be the one, yes. I've ordered them even cheaper that that on Aliexpress. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-New-Pro-Micro-for-arduino-ATmega32U4-5V-16MHz-Module-with-2-row-pin-header/2021979132.html

For converters they are perfect! They are a bit more difficult to program (can't use the Teensy app), but it's totally worth it. There's a thread somewhere about it... yeh, this one on DT http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/how-to-use-a-pro-micro-as-a-cheap-controller-converter-like-soarer-s-t8448.html

[fohat.digs]

the AT101W has one annoying little trait, the switch pins are pent forwards on the PCB making them harder to desolder. Not impossible by any means, but it's definitely more annoying.

That varies quite a bit, it depends on the zeal of the tech who assembled it.

It is common to bend over a few pins (like maybe the corners and a couple in the middle) to hold the plates together before installing the others, but not really necessary. Half a dozen would be plenty, but, yes, I have seen many or most of them bent.

It can more than double the time required to remove them, and significantly increase the chance of damaging the pads.

[TouchTypist]

... double the time required to remove them, and significantly increase the chance of damaging the pads.

Sounds like a big caveat to me. Maybe changing the switches on this board isn't the way to go afterall.

[fohat.digs]

Sounds like a big caveat to me.

Just take your time and be careful.

The board is very nicely built. And after you get the bent ones out, swapping switches is easy in the future (since you will know better than to bend yours).

And they are all different - it just depends on the mood and habit of the tech who assembled it that day.

[njbair]

+1 for Matias Quiets. They aren't as tactile, but the tactility they do have is very smooth compared to most other switches. I'd almost say they're buttery. And they are indeed remarkably quiet.

Regarding desoldering, if you have a good soldering iron with adjustable heat and a decent solder sucker, you should be fine with a bit of patience. I've dealt with bent pins before. It helps if you're not trying to salvage the old switches, you can just work one pin at a time and sort of "tilt" them out, while keeping the iron on the pin you're trying to free.

[EscapeVelocity]

Im gonna throw out the Chicony 5181 or 5981(same with windows keys) with Monterey Blues.

The AEKII with Cream Damped is real nice as well.

[fohat.digs]

Im gonna throw out the Chicony 5181 or 5981(same with windows keys) with Monterey Blues.

The AEKII with Cream Damped is real nice as well.

I bought a Chicony 5181 once with blue Cherry.

[TouchTypist]

+1 for Matias Quiets. They aren't as tactile, but the tactility they do have is very smooth compared to most other switches. I'd almost say they're buttery. And they are indeed remarkably quiet.

Regarding desoldering, if you have a good soldering iron with adjustable heat and a decent solder sucker, you should be fine with a bit of patience. I've dealt with bent pins before. It helps if you're not trying to salvage the old switches, you can just work one pin at a time and sort of "tilt" them out, while keeping the iron on the pin you're trying to free.

I have all of the suggested gear, so I suppose I would be able to handle it. Depends on whether I find a good deal on an AEKII first, or enough switches. Also I over think things, so I'll probably have to think about it some more. The point about not keeping the switches is a good one, I suspect there isn't a big market for them

[TouchTypist]

So far all are mum on the sgi granite. Not all that great a board?

[chyros]

No, it's great supposedly, much like an even better-made version of the AT101W. Tend to be somewhat on the expensive side and you have to be careful you don't buy the SGI protocol one (which normal computers won't understand) but otherwise it's great, I think people (including me) just forgot about it really xD .

[TouchTypist]

Is there a good way to tell which is sgi protocol and which is modern day usable? Something on the order of non-sgi has ps2 connector, sgi protocol has weirdo proprietary silicon graphics connector?

[davkol]

http://deskthority.net/wiki/SGI_Bigfoot_series

[fohat.digs]

I think people (including me) just forgot about it

Quite hard to find (granite color) and expensive. But particularly desirable for its keycaps.

By the time you get to that price range, you should be buying a Northgate Omnikey 101 anyway.

[TouchTypist]

I think people (including me) just forgot about it

Quite hard to find (granite color) and expensive. But particularly desirable for its keycaps.

By the time you get to that price range, you should be buying a Northgate Omnikey 101 anyway.

I think you and I are seeing different prices for things, or I'm looking at the wrong model of Bigfoot. Beyond that, the Omnikey also uses a clicky white alps if the deskthority wiki is correct.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Northgate_OmniKey_101

I'm looking for tactile but not clicky switches.

[fohat.digs]

I think you and I are seeing different prices for things,

I don't follow these things since I am pretty well set.

My recollection is that the beige SGIs sell in the $40-$60 range and the granite ones sell at $70-$90, about where the Onmikey 101 sells.

Yes, the white Alps need to come out of the Northgate, but it is the finest chassis available to receive your transplants.

For you, clearly, that should be Matias tactiles.

[TouchTypist]

Ah, I didn't know you meant it as a suggestion for donor. Seems a shame to spend the money on such a nice board to rip it apart. That's my own hangup I'm sure; for some reason doing that to a keyboard that cost less than $30 is okayto me, but up around the range Omnikey 101s are selling for now seems a tall ask.

As for pricing, I'm seeing granites in the $40-$60 range, with a few outliers beyond those numbers. I just did look up the omnikey on eBay, and prices ranged from something like $150 to over $200. Who knows, sometimes the price of things like that on eBay will spike up for a while before settling back down to where they should be. Hazards of an auction site I suppose.

[fohat.digs]

If you want a full-sized, true-ANSI layout keyboard with Alps, your options are limited. Most of the old ones have bigass Enter and small Backspace, which are deal-killers for me. There are lots of vintage Northgates out there which are extremely well-built (if somewhat prone to yellowing) but the Omnikey 101 is the only one with true-ANSI layout and they are harder to find.

Doing a switch transplant may seem daunting at first, but after doing it a couple of times, it gets pretty easy. Far easier, in my opinion, than opening up the switches to do internal mods on them.

I am surprised to see SGIs in granite color for more reasonable prices. They used to be pretty precious.

[chyros]

Tbh both boards in which SKCM Cream is found are pretty tough, is the increase in physical toughness really worth buying two boards and desoldering 200 switches, then resoldering another 100?

[fohat.digs]

is the increase in physical toughness really worth buying two boards and desoldering 200 switches, then resoldering another 100?

Not quite sure what you mean. I have a black AT101W with orange Alps and pearl/pebble PBT caps, and a Northgate 101 with blue Alps.

I have a 2nd Omnikey chassis waiting for a set of Matias Quiet Clicks, when I get around to it.

[chyros]

is the increase in physical toughness really worth buying two boards and desoldering 200 switches, then resoldering another 100?

Not quite sure what you mean. I have a black AT101W with orange Alps and pearl/pebble PBT caps, and a Northgate 101 with blue Alps.

I have a 2nd Omnikey chassis waiting for a set of Matias Quiet Clicks, when I get around to it.

What I meant was, if you're looking at getting Cream Alps, you're looking at two boards that are pretty tough to begin with. Is t really worth buying a Northgate as well and then transplanting the switches into that?

[fohat.digs]

Is t really worth buying a Northgate as well and then transplanting the switches into that?

The Northgates are, hands down, the finest Alps chassis available. Nothing else even comes close.

If you want a "top-tier" full-sized Alps keyboard, you will need to put your preferred switch type into the Northgate body.

[TouchTypist]

For my own part, I don't think the keyboard needs to be able to withstand a nuclear blast. I don't transport my keyboards, and they tend to stay on my desk quite well. No cats hopping around to mess with them. For clarity's sake, I'm not being facetious, I'm just of the opinion that the two boards discussed so far are probably more than adequately made to suit my purposes. YMMV.

The more we discuss it and the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking of actually doing a switch transplant on my at101w. I'm tempted, whether or not I do that, to buy one of these other boards and have that as a comparison. I'll have to work out the particulars. Part  of what is encouraging me to go for the transplant is that I have a chicony keyboard with mx blues in it that I enjoy using, but it's been having reliability issues. I replaced the capacitors in it and in some ways that seems to fixed the problems, but not entirely - I still run into trouble with it. It seems to have difficulty operating while playing a game I've been really into lately, Heroes of the Storm. That is possibly just coincidence, but I recall it not working a few times while I was running that game. So, I was considering harvesting all or at least some of the switches and trying my hand at wiring a keyboard. I realize that's a bit of a step up in some respects from replacing the switches in the Dell keyboard, but it does have the advantage of I already have the switches for the project, and it doesn't much matter to me if it doesn't work out. The experience will be helpful. Either way, I'll having something to build on in terms of putting matias switches in the Dell.

On top of that, I figure if I'm going to take the Dell apart, I might as well try some light customization (paint, namely, but perhaps other things).  I've started looking into the particulars of all of this; there is a  hodgepodge of information here and there. There doesn't seem to be a definitive guide, but that's okay. Other people have managed, and I will too.

[njbair]

For my own part, I don't think the keyboard needs to be able to withstand a nuclear blast. I don't transport my keyboards, and they tend to stay on my desk quite well. No cats hopping around to mess with them. For clarity's sake, I'm not being facetious, I'm just of the opinion that the two boards discussed so far are probably more than adequately made to suit my purposes. YMMV.

The more we discuss it and the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking of actually doing a switch transplant on my at101w. I'm tempted, whether or not I do that, to buy one of these other boards and have that as a comparison. I'll have to work out the particulars. Part  of what is encouraging me to go for the transplant is that I have a chicony keyboard with mx blues in it that I enjoy using, but it's been having reliability issues. I replaced the capacitors in it and in some ways that seems to fixed the problems, but not entirely - I still run into trouble with it. It seems to have difficulty operating while playing a game I've been really into lately, Heroes of the Storm. That is possibly just coincidence, but I recall it not working a few times while I was running that game. So, I was considering harvesting all or at least some of the switches and trying my hand at wiring a keyboard. I realize that's a bit of a step up in some respects from replacing the switches in the Dell keyboard, but it does have the advantage of I already have the switches for the project, and it doesn't much matter to me if it doesn't work out. The experience will be helpful. Either way, I'll having something to build on in terms of putting matias switches in the Dell.

On top of that, I figure if I'm going to take the Dell apart, I might as well try some light customization (paint, namely, but perhaps other things).  I've started looking into the particulars of all of this; there is a  hodgepodge of information here and there. There doesn't seem to be a definitive guide, but that's okay. Other people have managed, and I will too.

I've found that the best way to learn is to jump right in. You've been reading those bits and pieces and they aren't making a lot of sense, but you are actually creating some "hooks" in your thinking, so that as you go about your mod, you'll recall those things...maybe not the particulars, but the fact that the info is out there. This will help you search for and find the relevant answers as-needed.

This was my experience with screw-modding old IBMs and even when I tore apart an old Apple IIGS to harvest the orange alps for another project. Now I feel confident enough to offer advice on my own experience.

Just don't be afraid to get your hands dirty, and make sure you remember to enjoy the modding process--it's all part of the hobby, and enjoying the handiwork is as fulfilling and worthwhile as enjoying the finished product.